Talk:Third Order of Saint Francis
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Regarding the suggestion that the entry on "Third Order" be merged with this one, my own view is that this would not be appropriate, as there are many Third Orders besides the Franciscan one, which would contradict the meaning of the article. Also the resulting page would be too clunky. Daniel the Monk (talk) 20:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Much of the text on the "Third Order" page is duplicated on the page devoted to the Franciscan Third Order. It doesn't need to be in the more general article. But it makes no sense to direct people interested in the Dominican Third Order - let alone Lutheran Third Orders - to the Franciscan Third Order article. The detail of the Franciscan article is good for an article about a specific movement - if anything, I want more (what the heck is the *name* of the organised part of it? Official name, I mean) - but inappropriate for an overview article, which "Third Order" otherwise is.
The two articles serve two different purposes. Shrink the general one by getting rid of the overlap; don't trash it, and don't bury the rest of the overview under the flood of data about the Franciscans.
- Also oppose the merge. Why not merge "Jesuit" and "Carmelite" with "Franciscan", while we're at it, too? All orders are just the same, by that logic. --184.108.40.206 (talk) 16:08, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
I am thinking of requesting (requiring?)
footnotes for folks who are put in the notable persons section. it currently looks like this:
- Among other notable figures were: St. Ferdinand, King of Castile; St. Elizabeth of Portugal, grand-niece of the first St. Elizabeth; St. Rosa of Viterbo; St. Margaret of Cortona; St. Thomas More; Blessed Umiliana Cerchi; Blessed Angela of Foligno; St. Ivo of Kermartin; Saint John Vianney, the famed Curé of Ars, France and St. Joan of Arc. Of names celebrated in history for literature, arts, politics, inventions, etc., Blessed Raymond Lull; Dante, Giotto, Petrarch, Michelangelo,Raphael, Cola di Rienzo, Christopher Columbus, Vasco da Gama, Cervantes, Lope de Vega, Galvani, Alessandro Volta, Garcia Moreno, Franz Liszt, and Lady Georgiana Fullerton. Popes Pius IX and Leo XIII were members of the Third Order, as also were Pope St. Pius X and the Blessed Pope John XXIII.
If his is a lay order, why would, for example, the Blessed Pope John XXIII be a member? There is nothing in our Joan of Arc article to support her listing and i find my self very suspicious of many of the others here too. What do you think? Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 13:59, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- As for requiring footnotes, that wouldn't be a problem. Probably need some time to get all the corresponding references. As to why Popes are members, that is actually a pretty complicated answer. First off there are two major "divisions" to the Franciscan Third Order. Third Order Regular and Third Order Secular (now known as the Secular Franciscan Order.) In the Catholic church you are either secular or religious. The difference being whether you have taken vows to become a member of a religious community. In a separate category you are either ordained or lay. Most diocesan priests/bishops/popes are Ordained and Secular. Diocesan priests that aren't members of religious Orders are allowed to be a member of the Secular Franciscan Order. Thus many famous people, including Popes have been members of the Secular Franciscan Order. There have also been 1st Order Popes. Several of the earlier people could easily be referenced to this article http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/fra/FRAht11.html The Catholic Encyclopedia also lists several: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14637b.htm Marauder40 (talk) 14:54, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- Could easily change it to:
- Among other notable figures were: St. Ferdinand, King of Castile; St. Elizabeth of Portugal, grand-niece of the first St. Elizabeth; St. Rosa of Viterbo; St. Margaret of Cortona; St. Thomas More; Blessed Umiliana Cerchi; Blessed Angela of Foligno; St. Ivo of Kermartin; Saint John Vianney, the famed Curé of Ars, France and St. Joan of Arc. Of names celebrated in history for literature, arts, politics, inventions, etc., Blessed Raymond Lull; Dante, Giotto, Petrarch, Michelangelo, Raphael, Cola di Rienzo, Christopher Columbus, Vasco da Gama, Cervantes, Lope de Vega, Galvani, Alessandro Volta, Garcia Moreno, Franz Liszt, and Lady Georgiana Fullerton. Popes Pius IX and Leo XIII were members of the Third Order, as also were Pope St. Pius X and the Blessed Pope John XXIII. Marauder40 (talk) 15:30, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- Just found a link for Blessed Pope John XXIII, http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20000903_john-xxiii_en.html Marauder40 (talk) 16:26, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- As noted by Marauder, the main point with Carptrash's question is that it is not a lay Order, but, rather, a secular Order in its origins. Thus secular clergy have always been able to be a part of the Order. In fact, the current national leader for the United States is a deacon.
- Carptrash has hit upon a problem with identifying people's affiliations, though. Some figures, like Joan of Arc, might not be able to be documented as members of the Order, because these were decentralized, mostly lay, groups, which, during the Middle Ages, kept no real records of membership. Even the patron saint of the Order (King St. Louis IX) is claimed by the Trinitarian Order to have belonged to them instead.
- What we mostly have here is the tradition of the Order as to its membership. Thus, as noted, St. Louis is considered a Franciscan, and his feast is kept within the Calendar of Saints of the Order. The same holds true for Joan of Arc, etc. Members who have not achieved recognition as heroic in the spiritual realm will be more problematic, but traditions as to their membership exist, and documentation might be available in some manuscript in Umbria or elsewhere.
- I'm confused by individually footnoting the dozens of figures listed all to the same reference. Isn't that an unnecessary overkill? Daniel the Monk (talk) 17:08, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
- As for the overkill, that was why I didn't immediately make the change to the article itself. I think it looked very clunky. If the text is left as is and we want every person to be referenced, that is what it will need to look like. We could separate things into something like an entire section of people that have been referenced by the Catholic Encyclopedia, then list the people that have references elsewhere. Something like: "Some notable figures include (as referenced in the Catholic Encyclopedia), .... Other figures include, ...." As for whether certain people are in the Order or not, we just need a reliable source that says they are. If there is a lot of doubt we can put that in. Most, like St. Louis, there is only a small degree of doubt. St. Joan of Arc the degree is a lot higher. Marauder40 (talk) 17:58, 20 April 2012 (UTC)