Talk:Thirteen Years' War (1454–66)

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Old talk[edit]

Nice article (though it needs some editing on the English). Maybe it is interesting to put in the summary what the outcome of the war was; what was in the peace agreement? Did the Prussian cities get independent of the Teutons or not? jheijmans


Note: The following is from a book by Marian Biskup, "Wojna trzynastoletnia", plus some other information -- Does this mean that the material below that line is a translation from the original book? Do you have the author's permission to include his original work on this page, even in translation? We've had this discussion about translations still being copyrighted before. -- Zoe

Looking at the History, this text seems to be added by Szopen. I copied and moved the line with the Biskup ref. higher for people to realize , that this is not our article.
user:H.J.

Although this article should be moved to Thirteen Years' War (and will be), this should not be done using cut and paste because that breaks up the history. Any move should be done properly using the move function. Unfortunately this is no longer possible and won't be possible until the existing Thirteen Years' War page is permanently deleted. With luck some kind sysop will do this soon. -- Derek Ross 22:08 Oct 18, 2002 (UTC)


Informations are not translations, but summary of infos from book.

I have noted that things which forced me to cease to support wikipedia have not changed. Poles are replaced with Kashubians, Polish suzereinty over Pommerania for few hundred years suddenly shortened to two decades in X century etc. Ech. Maybe some time in future i'll be back, but then of course, some HJ will of course again change everything. user:szopen

Prussia by the time of 13 years wr was inhabited by Poles, Prussians (which were not "Germans") and Germans. They all considered themselves "Prussians". "Kashubians" in that enumeration seems like "Poles, Kashubians, Prussians, Germans and Bavarians".

I left Thorn, Culm etc since it is not clear for me how situation on translating names is now on wikipedia since i left it. I removed "Boleslaw I hold Pomorze for three decades" as twisted truth, since it ignores fact that Pomorze was part of Polish kingdom, indirectly (as vassals) or directly (part of Zbigniew Krzywousty, then Przemysl, then Lokietko states). I removed lie that Krakow at the time had more German than Polish inhabitants. There were many Germans (as where many Italians, Dutch etc) in Krakow, but at the time most of population was Polish (as in almost all Polish cities by that time except those outside Polish border).

A.D.Danilecki "szopen" [[Szopen]]


Removed paragraph that Prussian confederation asked king for help after his marriage with Habsburg princess. They were in contact with Casimir for many, many years before, and decided to plea king for incorporating Prussia into Polish kingdom after HRE took the side of TO and ordered the cities to follow orders of TO.

szopen

What's the status of Danzig/Gdansk issue? I had lost the track whether it is finally accepted or not. I know that The results of it were contested (especially exception from 3RR). I reverted Sciurinae version because of four things: putting German name of Lizards union first and typo (Bohenian), and not being totally consequent (e.g Graudenz, Schwetz has no Polish version), and finally Germanising the name of Jan Bazynski (who was Pole, though both variants of the name were used at the time IIRC). I will support his version if those issues will in his version corrected and if indeed Gdansk vote will be confirmed as not contested BTW, could we work out some NEUTRAL version? The heck with Thorn (Torun) or Torun (Thorn), maybe just write Thorn/Torun (the names in alphabetical order). Well? As for Lizards union, it is important that it was found by POLISH knights from Ziemia Chelminska (Kulmerland). While legal before 1409, most of the leaders had to escape because of their help to Poland. Szopen 12:51, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


Re-inserted section of history of Thirteen Years' War here, because of removal by Szopen It was followed by the Pfaffenkrieg (a priests' war against the King of Poland) in 1467-79 and by the grandmaster of the Teutonic Order in 1494 again pledging fealty for Prussia to the Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I. The HRE empire continued to designate Administrators for Prussia and Maximilian II (III) still held this title in 1618 as well as other later Teutonic Knight masters, such as Kurfuerst Clement August, archbishop of Cologne in the 18th century. MG


MG, you see I removed it because I had not seen why you have inserted it. Why it is relevant that someone help the title for it? Polish kings were giving the titles as "XX of Smolensk" long after Smolensk was in Russian hands. Szopen 10:17, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Spelling[edit]

Current Polish spellings were/are used in the article which covers a 15th century issue that is not related to Poland only. The use of modern Polish alphabet and current Polish place names is very POV and not acceptable. Use English WP:UE. Even the names of present-day roads in Berlin are not accepted in German spelling, see Talk:Wilhelmstrasse and Voßstraße, so any POV pushing with Polish spelling will be opposed. --Matthead 14:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Matthead, so you want to start again the discussion over the "should we use gdansk or danzig"? So, what name you will want to use? Poznania? For example, what will you use for Toruń? Torunia, Thorunia, Thurinia? Surely not Thorn, because that, according to your logic, would be POV pushing too (It was not the name used at the time AFAIK). It's absurd. Szopen 16:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Another thing, the diacritics: there is no convention whether to use it or not, There is a PROPOSAL. And even according to tha proposal, you should leave Zbigniew Oleśnicki

(Zbigniew Oleśnicki -Olesnicki) http://www.google.pl/search?hl=pl&as_qdr=all&q=+%22Zbigniew+Ole%C5%9Bnicki%22+-site%3Awikipedia.org+-Olesnicki&btnG=Szukaj&lr=lang_en 342

(Zbigniew Olesnicki -Oleśnicki) http://www.google.pl/search?hl=pl&as_qdr=all&q=+%22Zbigniew+Olesnicki%22+-site%3Awikipedia.org+-Ole%C5%9Bnicki&btnG=Szukaj&lr=lang_en

similar results for "cardinal Olesnicki -Oleśnicki" vs "cardinal Oleśnicki -Olesnicki" Szopen 16:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


Elisabeth of Austria[edit]

I disagree with the removal "remove Albert/Elisabeth irrelevancy;" by Olessi regarding the marriage of Casimir IV Jagiellon which is relevant for the Prussians now siding with Casimir/Elisabeth rather than Frederick III. In his articles, it is stated:

"In 1454, he married Elisabeth of Austria {right}, daughter of the late King of the Romans Albert II of Habsburg by his late wife Elisabeth II of Bohemia. Her distant relative Frederick of Habsburg became Holy Roman Emperor and reigned as Frederick III until after Casimir's own death. The marriage strengthened the ties between the house of Jagiellon and the sovereigns of Hungary-Bohemia and put Casimir at odds with the Holy Roman Emperor through internal Habsburg rivalry.

That same year, Casimir was approached by the Prussian Confederation for aid against the Teutonic Order, which he promised, by the act of incorporation of Prussia to the Polish Kingdom. However, when the cities of Prussia rebelled against the Teutons, the Order resisted with greater strength than expected, and the Thirteen Years' War (1454-1466) ensued. Casimir and the Prussian Confederation defeated the Teutonic Order, taking over its capital at Marienburg (Malbork Castle). In the Peace of Toruń (1466), the Order recognized Polish sovereignty over Royal Prussia and the Polish crown's overlordship over Ducal Prussia."

Besides, Elisabeth is called "Mutter der Jagiellonen oder von Königen" in German. -- Matthead discuß!     O       19:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to add it back in. Olessi 19:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
So, you added it back after getting support from someone who added it earlier? Impressive. This is wrong addition because it creates false impression that Prussians approached Kazimierz because of this marriage or that this marriage influenced their decision (while in fact contacts between Polish crown and Prussian were much older) Szopen 15:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
You removed a fact, claiming "is wrong addition because it creates false impression"? Can you back that up, both "wrong addition" and "creates false impression"? Two sentences above, "They received support, especially from Greater Poland and from the party of Queen Sophia of Halshany, mother of King Casimir IV Jagiellon of Poland" illustrates the importance of alliances which are sealed by marriage to the king. The marriage to Elisabeth is very relevant to both Casimir, and the Jagiellon dynasty. She was the mother of 4 kings, and grandmother of Albert of Prussia, too. The fact goes back in to remain there. -- Matthead discuß!     O       21:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
She still has nothing to do with the war. Space Cadet 22:58, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
She was not present on battlefields, indeed. Was it pure coincidence the Prussians negotiated in Prague prior to the wedding? Both unrelated? Desperately needed to be not mentioned in the article? -- Matthead discuß!     O       01:25, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
While I am currently neutral regarding the inclusion of the disputed content, you seem to be inferring that I was the editor who "added it earlier". Rather, it was added by an anonymous editor over a year ago. Olessi 16:47, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Prussians started negotiations long before the wedding. So why the wedding is important to war? Do you have ANYTHING to back it up (that it's important) except your own opinion? If you can quote one book which will state that marriage influenced the Prussians, I won't object to it. Otherwise it's of non-value. Szopen 07:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
As for later Polish nationalists (in your edition), what do you mean by that? The former Polish roots were bringed back by both Prussians and Poles constantly during war and later during negotations. Szopen 07:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Again, I am unsure if you are addressing Matthead or me. If you are addressing me, I have already stated my neutrality regarding the wedding issue. Regarding "Polish nationalists", I did not add such phrasing but only copyedited the grammar. If you are not addressing me, please be more careful with your indentation and paragraph placement. Olessi 17:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Olessi, you are right. I put wrong indentation and I was adressing this to Matthead. I apologise and do a ritual dance of self-criticism. I hope you are not offended. Szopen 07:11, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I was just a little confused by the discussion; no harm done! Olessi 15:12, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

MILHIST assessment[edit]

Assessed as start. Although article is extensive, it has no clear citation. Monstrelet (talk) 13:42, 2 May 2011 (UTC)