Talk:Tibetan Buddhism

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edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Tibetan Buddhism:
  • Discuss: What should be in this list?
  • Discuss: What should be in the introduction?
  • Discuss: What's missing in this article? (What do people need to know about Tibetan Buddhism?)
  • Improve footnotes & referencing.
  • How to shorten the article? Can we make some of it into another article? Does anyone know how?

Archives[edit]

Black Hats[edit]

The Kagyu tradition is called here (and in other pages on Wikipedia: Kagyu, Red Hat sect) one of the "red hats sects". In the Encyclopaedia Britannica it is mentioned that the main subsect of Kagyu, Karmapa, is also known as "black hats" ("Among the many lineages that have developed within the Bka'-brgyud-pa [Kagyu] order, the one that is best known today is the Karma-pa (Black Hat) lineage"). I think it would be worthwhile to mention that under the section "Schools", either under the subsection "Kagyu(pa)" or at the end, after the chart of the four schools. I think it would clarify the place of the "black hats" regarding the red and yellow hats, which would be hard to find out otherwise (perhaps it would be useful in the Red Hat sect page too. --Nazroon (talk) 17:20, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


Tibetan Tantrism...[edit]

The section, "Preliminary practices and approach to Vajrayāna" section has been amplified with a very long body of text starting with the words, "Tibetan Tantrism..." There are two problems with it: 1) It is entirely unreferenced. 2) It belongs in the Vajrayana article, since it is too long for an introductory article like this one. Moving the text to fix 2) would be easy enough, but what to do about the lack of referencing? Moonsell (talk) 06:04, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I've deleted it. If anyone wants it back, please put in the Vajrayana article, where it belongs. May I suggest, it won't survive long there either without the addition of extensive references. Moonsell (talk) 21:19, 18 October 2013 (UTC)


Study of tenet systems - The termas[edit]

This bit is not well-written. It is not part of tenet systems. It says, termas are still being created, which is a big swallow. It is completely unreferenced. Above all, do we even need a mention of termas at all in an introductory article of this nature? Moonsell (talk) 21:31, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I've deleted it. If anyone wants to restore it, please address the concerns above first. Moonsell (talk) 23:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Wrathful bodhisattvas[edit]

This bit is not well-written. It is not integrated with the rest of the article. It is completely unreferenced. Do we even need a mention of this at all in an introductory article of this nature? Moonsell (talk) 21:40, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I've deleted it. If anyone wants it back, please address the concerns above first. Moonsell (talk) 22:55, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Reincarnating lamas: the Tulkus[edit]

This bit is not well-written and quite uninformative. It is completely unreferenced. The following section already contains a link to the main article on this. I've deleted it. Moonsell (talk) 21:42, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Schools - Genealogy of Tibetan Buddhist schools[edit]

This beautiful graphic is a welcome piece of decoration and colour. It makes the topic less dry. However, it has issues of its own.

1) There are so many names that are not mentioned otherwise in the text. Do we need them?

2) The diagram itself is not integrated with the body of the article. The article does not even refer to it.

3) It seems to say, Bon is one of the roots of Tibetan Buddhism. This is an idea that was taken for granted in the past but is disputed now. A contemporary native authority, the Dalai Lama even holds that Bon influences on Tibetan Buddhism have been few and superficial, such as in the form of musical instruments (Australian public talk, 2010).

When I double-click on the graphic itself, I see that it is copied from a book published in 1928. It should be an easy matter to substitute an edited copy of it that removes these difficulties and I am prepared to try. Does anyone else have any thoughts about this first? Moonsell (talk) 22:32, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I've substituted an edited graphic to address the last two of these concerns. Not sure yet what to do about the first one yet, though. Moonsell (talk) 03:27, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
I've substituted another edited graphic to simplify the material, as per concern 1) above. Moonsell (talk) 00:13, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

History[edit]

I've moved this section to the article, Tibetan Buddhist History. It was too detailed for an introductory article like this one. I've added Tibetan Buddhist History to "See also" at the end of this article.

If there are any problems with this, please discuss before trashing this work. It has involved some detail to make it nice. Moonsell (talk) 00:31, 31 October 2013 (UTC)


Monasticism[edit]

This section overlaps the Wikipedia article, List of Tibetan monasteries and largely duplicates it. The material in this section is not of an introductory nature, so that the Tibetan Buddhism article would be better not to include it and just to refer to it. This material and that in List of Tibetan monasteries need to be consolidated outside the Tibetan Buddhism article. Moonsell (talk) 04:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

No such thing as Tibetan Buddhism?[edit]

Buddhism beyond the nation state by Richard Payne. This is an interesting material. Komitsuki (talk) 12:04, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to Komitsuki for that. It's curious, but does not seem helpful to us directly.
1) The article claims there is no such thing as Tibetan Buddhism. Like it or not, that term is not used geographically these days. We don't need the Tibetan nation in order to call things "Tibetan", and if we stop talking about Buddhism with that word, other people just won't understand us. It's just the way we use language. The literature of the premodern tradition was written in a dead language, Sanskrit. The modern inheritance of that literature is written in Tibetan.
2) The same thing goes for the idea, 'there is no equivalent for “Tibetan Buddhism” in premodern Buddhist literature from Tibet'. That is uninformed. All the literature from the Pāla period of Buddhism in Tibet was, not only the basis of Tibetan Buddhism, but more or less the same. Tibetan Buddhism, whether the Tibetan nation exists or not, is the modern survivor of the Pāla tradition of Buddhism, practiced in the Indian university of Nālanda and others.
3) The same thing goes for the proposal that Vajrayāna is the same thing as Tibetan Buddhism. The latter includes the former as well as other things. Other forms of Buddhism include it too.
The question that this other article highlights is, should our Wikipedia article here make all these things clearer than they are already?
  Moonsell (talk) 17:21, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I've added new material to the introduction to address these points.
   Moonsell (talk) 18:10, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm just helping by putting some pieces of info in the talk section most of the times. I have a tendency not to edit the actual articles. Komitsuki (talk) 15:06, 3 December 2013 (UTC)