|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Tigon article.|
|WikiProject Cats||(Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)|
|WikiProject Mammals||(Rated Start-class, Low-importance)|
- 1 Changes regarding Lady Kali, the ti-liger
- 2 Request for non-copyrighted photo
- 3 Size of house-cats
- 4 Replacement photograph
- 5 my comment
- 6 vfd debate
- 7 The Movie "Napolean Dynamite"
- 8 a picture
- 9 "zoo-bred"?
- 10 Male ligers are sterile as are tigons
- 11 The first paragraph doesn't make sense to me
- 12 Tigon
- 13 Scientific species name?
- 14 Keep Breeding
- 15 There must be a better picture
- 16 Stub
- 17 Tigon
- 18 Inconstistent Units
- 19 Tigon vs. Tiglon
- 20 rarity
- 21 Requested move
- 22 Size
Changes regarding Lady Kali, the ti-liger
Wikipedia's Tigon and Liger articles contain info on Lady Kali, a ti-liger. However, the articles both initially merely repeated the claims made by her owners that she was part of a "research programme" and "behavioural" study. Note the British spellings to describe what is actually a roadside zoo with two felines, run by two guys in North Carolina. There is no breeding program, no genetic research program, and no behavioral study, and no scientific report (or any report at all that I could find, not even anecdotes on their website) of results of any such programs or studies.
What there IS, and I've provided a link to a copy of it, is a 2004 report from the local paper stating that the animals are "sisters" (highly unlikely in the genetic sense, since even their owners admit they are eight years apart in age), and that both have been on exhibit for "at least five years" (taking Lady Kali's birth back to at least 1999) while their owners have been evicted from one roadside location after another. From the news report, these two felines are apparently the only two animals these men display, though there is a photo of a very young chimp and of a capuchin monkey on their websites (who may be private pets or visitors). Again, no evidence whatsoever of a breeding, behavioral, or genetic research program.
As to their age, their website refers to the two animals as "two" and "ten," but is undated, so no accurate birthyear can be estimated from that. The website also contains copies of USDA licenses, with the latest expiring in late 2006. The licenses confirm the names of the men involved (also referenced in the news item) and provides a Fayetteville, NC address on the most recent license, so it's safe to say that the animals are still in NC in 2006.
Though the reliable information is scanty, I think SOME reference to Lady Kali is worth leaving in the Tigon and Liger articles. I corrected the info and provided links to the Lady Kali webpage and the definition of USDA Class C Exhibitor, and patched minor typo's elsewhere in the text. I also provided a live link to the text of the 1994 News-Observer news item about the evictions. The newspaper's own link has gone dead, but can be viewed by reading Google's cached copy. It is identical to the live copy still published via the Captive Wild Animal Protection Coalition on the link I provided. -- Lisasmall 21:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Request for non-copyrighted photo
anyone got a picture of a tigon? or a ti-tigon?
There is one here: http://www.shambala.org/biographies/patrick.htm However, I do not know whether that image is copyrighted. The drawing currently up is not very realistic, and it appears to be copyrighted to its artist. I'm a newbie, though, and don't have the skill to change the picture... -Elizabeth liger and tigons and bears o my!
Size of house-cats
'Tigons... often weigh around 150 kilograms. In appearance and size they appear "house-cat like".' [My emphasis.]
Has anyone ever seen a 150-kilo house-cat? 126.96.36.199 08:48, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Well, house-cat-LIKE... =P Same, same but different....
- I noticed the same thing. I came to the conclusion that the two sentences are not related. They just appear that way. It weights 150kg and just happens to look like a house cat (something lions and tigers do not) Jet 17:31, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)
- I think it might hagve something to do with their appearance rather than their mass - meaning that have visual qualities similar to that of a house cat. They are just bigger
- Meaning they have the relative body proportions akin to those of house-cats, rather than of either parent species? Any more details on the proportion differences of house-cats versus the "big cats"?
We desperately are in need of a better or supplemental photograph on the Tigon page.
- Well there are two (female) tigons at canberra zoo, and i took four (PD) pictures of them, unfortunatley they weren't in a photogenic mood so they arent very good. Hopefully i will go there again soon and take some better photos, in the meantime i put the best on the article and have taken the drawing off. All my Tigon photos can be found at commons:Image:Tigon, the origanal drawing is at [[Image:TIGON.JPG]]. The bellman 02:30, 2005 Jan 18 (UTC)yo
Hi, I'm some random person. It's not really the size of a house cat, it's somewhat bigger, but it is smaller then both of its parents. See, when animals mate, either the female or the male carry what we know as the growth gene. For lions, it's the female. For tigers, it's the male. So, it you take a female lion and male tiger, you get an animal with no growth genes, causing it to grow to be very small, the Tigon. But saying that it is as small as a house cat is taking it too far. Now, when you get the male lion and female tiger together, it has two growth genes, causing it to grow huge, which is does because it's body litteraly does not know when to stop, and this animal is the Liger, ok, i'll go now, but, just so if you want to correct me, don't call me a he, i'm a girl, and i'm 15! oh, yeah, i'm smart, go me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk • contribs) 16:06, 27 February 2006
- You seem to have got it the wrong way round. If it's the female lion and the male tiger that carry the genes, then the offspring of these two creatures would receive both genes, not neither. As you'd know if you'd read the article at the time, it's growth-inhibitory genes that are the issue here. -- Smjg 19:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi i'm similar to some random person. I think it is slightly cruel to have abnormalities like this, if the male tigon/liger is sterile then something can't be right.
This page was proposed for deletion December 2004. The archived discussion is available at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Tigon.
The Movie "Napolean Dynamite"
In an ad produced by MTV to promote the movie "Napolean Dynamite", Napolean says that tigon's are "stupid and smell like pooh!" I assume that in the wild, this is probably true, at least about the smelling like pooh part.
- I have never seen that in the ad and I am sure that tigons are not stupid and that they don't smell like poo. Plus, in nature, tigons don't exsist because:
1. MOST lions are in Africa and ALL tigers live in Asia 2. If a male tiger did happen to come across a female lioness, he still would not become attracted because tigers are very solitary and lionesses on the other hand, are very social.
Liger -- Male lion crossed with a female tiger
Tigon -- Male tiger crossed with a female lion
- Some may smell like poo but 'pooh'? Like winney the pooh?
--Kalmia 02:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
here is one that I found, but it has the caption "Tiglon"
- Not s very good picture, the Tigon is far away and quite blurry. Anyone else has another picture? 184.108.40.206 22:52, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Modern zoos regard themselves as institutions dedicated to the scientific conservation. Breeding the hybrids of exotic animals is something that private collectors and the proprietors of commercial animal parks get involved in.
Tigers are an endangered species. It is a waste of the genetic heritage of a tiger to cross it with another big cat. The offspring of out-species cross will almost certainly be lost. And in the unlikely event it isn't, that offspring is clearly not a tiger. So genetic heritage is lost. Responsible scientists would rather breed fertile tigers with other tigers, so the genetic heritage is retained.
- Breeding a tiger with a lion doesn't stop the tiger from later breeding with another tiger. Moreover, since the father of a tigon (as opposed to a liger) is a tiger, the time for which the mother is pregnant doesn't (at least in theory) stop the male tiger from co-conceiving baby tigers in the meantime. -- Smjg 11:53, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
- You are correct that there is less of an investment of the Tiger species limited remaining genetic heritage in breeding a male tiger with a female of another, less endangered, species, than there is in breeding a female tiger with another species. But there would still be an investment. Whether the breeding was done by putting a male tiger in a cage with a out-species female that was in heat, or whether the male was anaesthetized to harvest his sperm, there is a risk of injury. Since an out-species cross has novelty value, not scientific value, why would a real scientific institution devote any effort to breeding hybrids? -- Geo Swan 03:18, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Male ligers are sterile as are tigons
The male liger and tigon are both sterile as a mule. Females can be fertile and can produce Ti-ligers or Ti-tiglons.
This is true with most hybrids nature for some reason wants to protect itself
That may have to do with the X and Y chromosomes, maybe the Y chromosome creates sterility?
Yep, and when the latest version of Internet Explorer doesn't work under DOS, it's because the God of Software wants to protect himself.
The first paragraph doesn't make sense to me
The comparative rarity of tigons is attributed to male tigers finding the courtship behaviour of a lioness too subtle and thus may miss behavioural cues that signal her willingness to mate. However lionesses actively solicit mating so their current rarity is most likely due to them being less impressive in size than ligers.
Is it just me or is that somewhat contradictory?
- I think the original writer was showing the contradiction -- it is attributed to x, but however, y is the truth. -- Lisasmall 21:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
- I'm thinking the word ligers in the last sentence is supposed to be tigers, implying that male tigers aren't impressed by the comparatively small size of lionesses (as opposed to female tigers). A typo. -- Ojaxis 05:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
A tigon is a real animal and if you don't believe it, type in "Tigon" in google.
Scientific species name?
The "species name" is certainly not recognised by taxonomists, or maybe one when Delano is one. Does anyone has or know the correct citation of the scientific article where Panthera tigreo (Delano, 2006) has been named and described as a species? Or is that name here placed as a joke? Peter Maas 11:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
- I doubt any taxonomist is going to seriously consider naming a species that very rarely occurs in the wild and is partially sterile Nil Einne 10:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think tigons will ever get a species name - by definition, a species is defined as "a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring". Since tigons (and ligers) are incapable of interbreeding, they will never belong to a species. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 15:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hybrids are named with both of their parent species; a tigon would be Panthera leo x tigris (the "x" indicates a hybrid). KarlM (talk) 07:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
There's gotta be a way! I understand that most Liger and Tigon males are sterile (most if not all (as of Yet)). But there's gotta be a way to keep breeding those puppies, whether you clone them or adjust the chromosomes, or just old fashion make em hump till they drop! I beleive! Because, ligers are proven to grow bigger than tigons. The male lion has a growth-promoting hormone and the female tiger has a growth promoting hormone, which creates a liger. So this is the opposite for tigons. Selective breeding is the way to go. Keep breeding the tigons smaller and smaller and smaller until they breed to the point that they are house cat size, so that every cat lover in the world can have a little tigon roaming around the house intimidating the family pitbull. If selective breeding can be done with dogs, it can be done with cats. It obviously might take decades, if not centuries, if not eons, if not eternities, if not God phases, if not...then forget it. But we might as well start trying now, I want to have a pet Tigon in my house in 30 years. The clock starts .....Now! Dre.velation2012 10:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- Get on it then! --Kalmia 14:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- So that explains the 20 Lb semi-feral female cat-monster imposing on my charity! We call her FANG and she's a killing machine - mice, rats, birds, lizards, small snakes, large bugs etc. Somebody must have a Tigon-to-Housecat underground lab in my neighbrhood. This would explain all the ginormous feral kittens with stripes that keep turning up and asking Got Milk? Dre, if ya want one, let me know and we'll catch one for ya! ;-) Lisapollison 02:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
There must be a better picture
Close to the end of the second paragraph of the first section of this article, the weight of a tigon is giving in kg, with lb. in parenthesis next to it. However, many times in the third section of the next paragraph, lb. is given with kg in parenthesis, and inches with cm in parenthesis next to it. We should use either the U.S customary system or the metric system consistently. It makes more sense to use the Metric system since the whole world except the U.S uses metric units. --STAR TREK enthusiast Open channel 12:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
- Well spotted. I've fixed things up to favour the more widely used metric system, though have used the Convert template to represent both. It's pretty cool - have a look. Cheers, --PLUMBAGO 13:07, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Tigon vs. Tiglon
- WAZA and AZA and ISIS all have tigon aswell as google returning more then twice the results for Tigon as they do for Tiglon. I am more inclined to stick with what the zoo world calls the Animal.ZooPro 11:08, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Some of the sources you have qouted above list "Tigon" also.ZooPro 11:11, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
The move was not intended to be in "bad form". Wikipedia holds that editors should be bold. I am bold only when I am confident I am right. The sources above certainly list "tigon" as an alternative—it is a valid secondary spelling. Google as an entity is not an acceptable secondary source, and so can't really be used as proof of something's use. Nonetheless, let's explore that route: since "Tigon" is the name for several companies as well as an alternative spelling of tiglon, a simple search of "tigon" vs. "tiglon" is not tenable. Inserting the word "hybrid" into the search should narrow the results down to relevant entries: a search for "tigon" "hybrid" on November 4, 2009 turned up with exactly 523 results . A search for "tiglon" "hybrid" at the same time turned up with exactly 568 results . It is of further importance to this bout of original research that "tiglon" was not until recently even a word listed on Wikipedia. So out of the 523 Google results, an unassessed (but demonstrably large) number are simply going to be direct copies of the erstwhile "tigon" Wikipedia article. So the assumption (although admittedly an assumption) that "tiglon" is in wider accepted use (even if not in the specialized fields) is not unreasonable.
In the end this debate is simply a matter of taste, however. As an Encyclopedia, I believe that Wikipedia owes its morphological allegiance to the written word—namely, a consensus of dictionaries. You believe that in the spirit of descriptiveness, the encyclopedia should follow the example of zoos. This is the only point, as far as I can tell, that matters. Neither of us can prove that the other's method is less valid. So in making this bold move, I take this into account: the overwhelming majority of Google searches for "Tigon" refer to one of the two+ companies—and so a page devoted to a tiger–lioness hybrid would be more accurately named Tigon (hybrid) or something along those lines, and Tigon would either serve as one of the two+ companies or as a disambiguation page. Happily, however, each hypothetical (and, as it happens, real) entry on the disambiguation page has a better alternative: Tiglon, Tigon British Film Productions, and Tigon Studios. — The Man in Question (gesprec) · (forðung) 20:31, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Still not seeing the reason for the change. You have provided no direct sources that confirm your statements. Having looked at those links i find them to be trivial at minimum and WP does not accept dictionaries as reliable sources. Being BOLD is a good thing however if your change is disagreed with then we revert and discuss, not keep and discuss. I would draw your attention to the use of tigon in ISIS. ZooPro 11:02, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
I shall ask your permission to throw in another argument against this bold move: not only "Tigon" is the primary form used in Encyclopedia Britannica , but it is also the primary form in most other European languages, as one can see by going over the Languages tab, which in turn makes it much more likely that a search will normally be initiated with this form. The change still appears to be but a simple matter of an editor's personal preference and taste. Not good :\ AlexNB (talk) 19:18, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Tigon, given that an authoritative source, Britannica, uses the term, and the quantitative results. Additionally, Google redirects tiglon to tigon , but not vice versa. Dictionaries are not authoritative for correct usage. They reflect found usage. Editors of dictionaries struggle what to do with misspellings, especially when misspellings are common. Additionally, the form of the word creation for hybrids doesn't skip letters where words are cut. Tiglon skips the i in lion. Kd4ttc (talk) 18:52, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
the following was uncited and nonsensical, so I removed it to here:
- The comparative rarity of tiglons is attributed to male tigers' finding the courtship behavior of a lioness too subtle, and consequently missing behavioral cues that signal her willingness to mate. However, lionesses actively solicit mating, so the current rarity of tiglons is most likely due to their being less impressive in size than ligers, with a corresponding lesser novelty value.
- Why? Because these crosses almost never occur 'naturally' - they are usually deliberately arranged by zoo, etc, owners who often do so in order to produce a novel and impressive animal to exhibit and bring in the crowds. Ligers, being bigger than tigons, would therefore be preferred. The passage could certainly be reworded to make this more explicit; however I am not convinced of the argument in the second sentence which, I think, contains a non sequitur. It could well also be that lionesses solicit mating with behaviour and physical cues (e.g. scents) that are obvious to a lion, but that a male tiger simply doesn't easily recognise, so the opening sentence of the passage (which the second sentence purports to refute) would be valid. I think the passage overall draws conclusions unsupported by any cited reference, and therefore borders on Original Research, so I agree with your removal. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 05:27, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
The article says:
- It is a common misconception that tigons are smaller than lions or tigers. They do not exceed the size of their parent species because they inherit growth-inhibitory genes from the lioness mother, but they do not exhibit any kind of dwarfism or miniaturization; they often weigh around 180 kilograms (400 lb).
If - according to the respective Wikipedia articles - tigers can weigh over 350 kg, and lions over 250 kg, then it seems to be indeed the case that tigons are (somewhat) smaller than lions or tigers. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 14:46, 1 June 2014 (UTC)