Talk:Tin Pan Alley

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Couldn't one say that Tin Pan Alley continued into the rock era with the Brill Building - if one accepts this, then one would have to say that it lasted until the late 1960s...

Music Publishers Association[edit]

What's the source for the founding date and other information about the Music Publishers Association in this entry? Thisis as close as I found, but it doesn't seem terribly reputable.

Several sources do say the name comes from a description of the sound of many pianos, but I question it. I can't find a different etymology, but in Mark Twain's "Adventures of Huckleberry Finn," written long before Tin Pan Alley, Huck describes a piano thus: "There was a little old piano, too, that had tin pans in it, I reckon, and nothing was ever so lovely as to hear the young ladies sing..." (page 79 in my Dover edition). pavone 03:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The Annotated editon of Huck Finn identifies the "tin pan" piano as a commercially available item: a piano with added pedals to play bells and jingling sounds that went along with an craze for exotic music at the time. Tin Pan Alley then is the place where such special effects gather, with the emphasis on "Alley" perhaps implying the lower-status range of such effects. In Huck Finn the piano is another sign of the Grangerford family wealth, as well as its weakness for up to date products that to them signaled stature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:36, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Interesting, but such an etylmology cannot be included in the article unless it is supported by a citaton from a reliable source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:01, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Dates on ASCAP conflict[edit]

The article states that ASCAP was established in 1914, then it goes on to say that by 1910 90% of royalties were going to ASCAP? How could that be possible?

...The American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers (ASCAP) was founded in 1914 as an organization to mutually aid and protect the interests of established publishers and composers. New members were only admitted with sponsorship of existing members. By the end of the 1910s, it was estimated that over 90% of the sheet music and phonograph records sold in the U.S. paid royalties to ASCAP... Muserna Muserna 00:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The article doesn't say "by 1910", it says "by the end of the 1910s". The 1910s is a decade which ended on the last day of 1919. -- Infrogmation 05:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Upon closer inspection, the dates are correct, therefore I would like to retract this subtalk topic. Muserna Muserna

Cole Porter[edit]

Wow! I'm amazed that Cole Porter's name doesn't appear in this list. Whatever else he was, whatever else he did, SURELY he was a leading TPA composer? Edetic (talk) 15:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Link to A Bird in a Gilded Cage[edit]

Link to A Bird in a Gilded Cage goes to the wrong page - there is a correct page: (Incorrect page = Sorry, I don't know how to fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:58, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Fixed it!  :)

2011 image of Tin Pan Alley is on 6th, not 28th[edit]

The 2011 image of Tin Pan Alley is actually taken on 6th ave between 28th and 29th streets facing east, not on 28th between 5th and 6th. It's right around the corner, but it's technically not the place that is listed as Tin Pan Alley. It's also clear from windows and stairwells that those are not the same buildings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:16, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, you're absolutely wrong. I took the picture in question, and it's precisely where I said it was. Those are the same buildings, which close-up examinination will show, they've just been altered for commercial purposes. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:04, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Tin Pan Alley and the Blues[edit]

Hi Beyond My Ken, you reverted my edit on Tin Pan Alley, calling my edit summary "plain silly". We may disagree about Tin Pan Alley and the blues, but I believe I can claim to have modern scholarship on my side. I recently made some documentaries for the BBC about the history of the blues. Among the books we consulted most heavily were Leaving the Delta by Elijah Wald, A Very Short Introduction To The Blues by Elijah Wald, Ragged But Right: Black Traveling Shows, "Coon Songs", And The Dark Pathway To Blues and Jazz by Lynn Abbott and Doug Seroff, and In Search of the Blues by Marybeth Hamilton. All these books agree that a distinction between "commercial blues" (e.g. St Louis Blues by WC Handy, Crazy Blues by Perry Bradford) and "authentic blues" is untenable. In our film, Scott Barretta, who co-created and co-curated the Mississippi Blues Trail [1] said, "What’s really significant about Handy hearing this music is that within a decade he was writing his blues tunes and making good money off of this music, so we often talk about blues as a folk music, but from its inception it was also commercialised."

I've taken the liberty of emailing you a lecture about the mythologies that surround the origins of the blues, given by David Evans, University of Memphis [2]. The relevant paragraph states:

"Moving from myths of blues origin to those of blues evolution we encounter a school of thought holding that some sort of pure “folk” or “country” blues became corrupted by popular, commercial, and urban influences. The first to express this view were folklorists in the 1920s, such as Howard Odum, Guy Johnson, and Newman White, who had done most of their blues collecting before the advent of commercial blues recording. They warned that the imitation of inferior commercial recordings by folk blues singers would lead to the rapid demise of the blues genre. These predictions proved false, but the myth of corruption persisted with writers like Rudi Blesh and Samuel Charters. The latter, in his influential book The Country Blues (1959), consistently found urban Chicago blues of the 1930s and early 1940s, as well as most modern electric blues, to be “cheap” and “derivative” in comparison to authentic rural blues."

These are some of the scholarly arguments behind my edit. Perhaps you could explain why you consider the views of Wald, Abbott, Seroff, Hamilton, and Evans to be misguided or "plain silly". Btw I agree with you about the virus of tagging WP articles. Best, Mick gold (talk) 12:14, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Let's take this one step at a time.

First, the technical part: You need to read (or re-read) WP:BRD. When your Bold edit has been Reverted by another editor, the next step, if you continue to think the edit is necessary, is to Discuss it on the article talk page, not to re-revert it, which is the first step to edit warring. During the discussion, the article remains in the status quo ante. So, starting a discussion here was good, reverting my edit was not the right thing to do.

But, second, it doesn't really matter, because I've thought some more about the change you made, and I have reconsidered and withdraw my objection -- no so much because of the scholarship you cite above -- although that played a part -- but because the sentence you removed was unsourced analysis which requires a source and hasn't had one for quite a while. Therefore, I've restored your edit, and, I hope, all is right with the world.

Best, BMK (talk) 23:20, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

BTW, I apologize for the "plain silly" comment in the edit summary, which was inappropriate. BMK (talk) 01:03, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Hi BMK, Thanks for your response and I note your advice re WP:BRD. All is right with the world, and I'll try to make further (sourced) additions to Tin Pan Alley article. Best, Mick gold (talk) 08:04, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Great, I look forward to your contributions. BMK (talk) 08:16, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Tin Pan Alley plaque?[edit]

I have walked up and down that stretch of 28th Street a dozen times and have never found the Tin Pan Alley plaque:

Is it still there -- and if so, where?


>> The name originally referred to a specific place: West 28th Street between Fifth and Sixth Avenue in Manhattan, and a plaque (see below) on the sidewalk on 28th Street between Broadway and Sixth commemorates it. (talk) 17:08, 10 October 2014 (UTC)