Talk:Toyota Stout

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Models and References[edit]

Split into Part 1,2,... because each section was getting unwieldy to edit. Only edit the last "Part".  Stepho  talk  04:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Part 1[edit]

Due to the recent confusion over Whysmee's changes, I will list my resources and the model info I gathered from them. I invite Whysmee and others to contribute and together we can make a true and accurate article.

  • "Toyota Truck 48HP". brochure No. 228. Japan: Toyota. 1954. [1]
  • "Toyopet 1.5 Ton". brochure No. 316. Japan: Toyota. 1955. [2]
  • Parts catalogue (JDM) 53336-64 1964 RK45 R RK100 3R-B
  • Parts catalogue (JDM) 53338-6? RK45V RK45V-B RK45P R 1500cc
  • Parts catalogue (JDM) 53304-66 1966 RK47V RK47V-B RK47V-C RK47P 2R
  • Parts catalogue (JDM) 53346-67 1967 RK47 2R 1490cc RK100 3R-B 1897cc
  • Parts catalogue (JDM) 53326-67 1967 RK100-K
  • Parts catalogue (JDM) 53328-67 1967 RK100V RK100P
  • Parts catalogue (JDM) 53326-68 1968 RK101 2 ton RK101-K 1.75 ton Rk101V-K RK101P-K 5R
  • Toyota Vehicle Identification Manual (Overseas parts department, excludes Japan and N.America) 97913-79 and 97913-84

From this I infer that the RK45 and RK100 enter production in 1964, that the RK47 enter production in 1966 and that the RK101 entered production in 1968. But since I am missing some manuals, earlier dates for each of them are quite possible. The overseas ID manual says the RK101 went from Sept 1967 (overriding my above guess) to Feb 1979, and was replaced by the third gen RK110 in Mar 1979. The ID manual lists no other overseas models and does not cover any of the JDM models.

The RK35 and the Lite Stout are new to me but I'm happy to learn about them.

By the way, the way years are listed can be confusing. Some people say mid 1967 to mid 1979 is 1967-1978, some say 1968-1979 (American model years) but on Wikipedia we say 1967-1979 (ie just drop off the months and use the actual calendar years).

I'm in Perth, Western Australia and play with 18R-G engines in a '77 Celica. What part of Oz are you in?  Stepho  talk  08:46, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

i hope this is right, i am new to this. I live near bundaberg. now how i understand the operation of the stouts is different due to the attempt to find out what my 1962 RK45 was and i only had google and it's translations that are forever changing. i found my RK45 in a scrap metal yard looking for a body that had less rust than my 1974 RK101, it had no ID plates on it and it looked like no other toyota stout online (i did find a year plate under paint drivers side near the seat). now as i understand the RK45 started production at the end of 1959 start of 1960 and were not plated until 1961-62 partly because of market demand. reading info of thiess constructions and there own importation of the first ten into australia due to the success of the land cruisers, they were near a good will gesture an offer to good to refuse and at this time south africa, chile and other investors from other countries basically had the RK45 stouts given to them as well. the over production of RK45 parts and poor demand made toyota in 1961 rethink the stouts to make them more market appealing such as left hand drive was quickly added. 1962 brought the lite stout RK40 and RK41 which had independent front suspension more like that of the hino briska due to toyotas acquisition of hino and later that year came the RK100. the fully 1963 were RK40 RK41 slight variants and the RK100, 1964 brought only a marketing name change from toyopet to toyota and due to success of the RK45 came international demand and the hino plant started tooling up for the export model for sales in 1965. the export models of RK43 and RK100 had a different grille of the previous models and the cab had been extend 2 inches 50mm in the back of the cab to increase seating room due to complaints in certain markets, the RK43 became the most sold version from 1965-67 of the stout. 1967 and the start of tighter emission laws the RK101 had the 5R and the RK43 lite stout had the same body style upgrade and due to emissions a 12R engine, there is nothing at all i have been able to find online on 1967 til end of production lite stouts, but they do come up for sale still online. the lite stout had interchangeability in front suspension with the early briska/hilux and disc brakes from the 1979-83 hilux are a clean swap for a lite stout brake upgrade. a man i met online in south africa has a south african built 1964 toyota stallion/lite stout with a factory plated 5R engine and the RK101 style front grille, which is confusing as the moreso the 5R and that style grille were not supposedly in production until 1968.

strange as well is the RK47 as there is no images of them online, yet the RK45 chassis/frame was also used in some cab over steer applications, the steering box mount was a simple U clamp that easily allowed the one steering box to do both applications.


RK40, RK41 1962-63 RK100 1963 versions grille had toyopet 1964 toyota http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Toyota_Stout_1900_%281960-1978%29.JPG RK43, RK100 1965-67 grille http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Toyota_Stout_Truck_-_Flickr_-_Moto@Club4AG.jpg RK43 lite stout 1967 til ? RK101 1968-78 grille http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Toyota_truck1.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whysmee (talkcontribs) 11:34, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

I find much of this a bit confusing. Was the Light Stout simply a lghter duty version of the regular Stout, sold alongside and undergoing much the same upgrades? As for the 1962 front suspension, Toyota didn't acquire Hino until 1966, so this seems very unlikely (as does the building of Stouts in Hino factories, although anything is possible). But you're right, this article definitely needs both to be corrected and made more clear. I would also very much like to request a photo of your RK45; as you can see there aren't many Stout photos available to us in WP. Best,  Mr.choppers | ✎  16:21, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

I just pulled out a book called Japanese Trucks 1917-1975, and the 1.75-ton 60PS RK45 (with single headlights) was introduced in July 1960. In October 1962, the 2-ton 80PS 1.9 litre RK100 (with twin headlights, I can't tell whether the RK45 continued with single units) was added alongside the 1.75 ton RK45 which was also facelifted with four headlamps. In September 1963 the 1 ton RK40 "Light Stout" was introduced (405mm shorter, and on a 200mm shorter wheelbase). By the way, what we are currently calling the "first" generation is actually two separate generations, the latter cars (1965-1960) using the same bodywork as the Toyopet Master and Masterline trucks (RR-series). The earliest RK trucks, as in Stepho's scans above, were simply continuations of the SG and SK-series and never carried the "Stout" name which was first introduced in July 1958 on the RK30/35 series. Also of interest is that "small" cars in Japan were limited to 4.3x1.68 metres until April 1958 when the still standing limits of 4.7x1.7 metres were introduced. Thus, tons of Japanese cars saw changes in mid-58, changes which had hitherto seemed inexplicable to me. Sadly the book does not mention the Stout past 1965.  Mr.choppers | ✎  16:56, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
Questions: Is the RK41 simply an LHD export RK40? Did they skip RK42 since the longer cab was only sold in LHD export markets? Is the RK47 a 1.5 liter 1.75 ton RK45 with the longer cab? Too many chassis numbers...  Mr.choppers | ✎  17:00, 17 June 2012 (UTC)


the cab extension continued in all post 1964 models, the light stout was independent coil suspension 13 inch tires rather than the 15 inch and as i understand the load abilities were of the lesser amounts. this it's self gets confusing as 2 ton 1.75 ton, and 1/2 ton were or should have it been tonne KG pending market as my 1974 RK101 GVW 6900LBS and my 1976 RK101 GVW 2970kg and yet curb weight is classed as 1,300kg, although tyre load ability allows over 4,000kg. the RK43 was sold in greece LHD, the RK45 was not sold post 1962 as the RK100 was not structurally different only engine and cosmetic changes. a just find; the RK43 had a 2R GVW 5270LB, RK41 3R, the RK47 dose not appear online apart from references, the RK41 might have been aimed at the north american market.

hino started collaborating with toyota around 1960-61, they were next door to each other/across the road, 1962 hino was making parts for toyota, 1963 they were basically one, 1964 hino was tooling up for toyota, 1965 merger, 1966 takeover.

i will have to have a look to get date of change but the RK45 and early RK100 had a one piece tail/drive shaft and the gearbox/transmission was longer, they were replaced by a two piece shaft and shorter shafted gearbox transmission — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whysmee (talkcontribs) 03:37, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Hm. I have period brochure scans from October 1962 that list the 1500cc, 1.75 ton model (RK45) and 1900cc 2tonner (RK100) as available alongside each other. On the same page there is also a scan of a Spanish-language brochure, which only lists the 1900 - perhaps this is meaningful? Also, thanks for expanding on Toyota's and Hino's early relationship.  Mr.choppers | ✎  05:10, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
As far as I can tell (google searches), RK41 was a code used for the Toyoace only. It seems that the RK47 was the 2R-engined replacement for the R-engined (1490 vs 1453cc) RK45, still with the 1500 engine and 1.75 ton capacity. Meanwhile, the RK43 took over after the RK40 Light Stout (at the same time? smae engine difference?). When the RK101 was introduced, the Hilux replaced all of the smaller engined Stouts and only the Stout 2000 remained. Here is another history, written in hard to decipher Japanese however.  Mr.choppers | ✎  06:08, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Judging by period photos of US-market Stouts (RK41L), these are Light Stouts fitted with the larger 1900cc engine to suit US market conditions. They were never called "Light", but the smaller wheels and shorter wheelbase are fairly clear in photos, further supported by the "L" in the chassis code. Now my only question concerns the mention of a 12R engine being fitted to the second gen Stout? Also, Whysmee, does your RK45 have single or double headlights?  Mr.choppers | ✎  06:43, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

there are two lite stouts for sale with 12R engines on gumtree australia, google (Toyota Stout ute barn find rat restore cheap) and (Toyota Lite Stout Tray back Ute - 1967)

if you google toyopet RK45 stout images you will find mine i am also yehright — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whysmee (talkcontribs) 07:10, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

How can you tell that this Lite Stout has the 12R? This one is listed as having a 1.0L engine, so dunno. Not saying that it wouldn't make sense to install the 12R, especially for the Australian market if the 12R was already available there, I just can't see any real evidence for it. And naturally, swapping engines in old Toyotas is endemic. Found your Stout, that should be great by the time it's finished!  Mr.choppers | ✎  14:20, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Woo hoo! I found my cache of old manuals. I've got the above manuals, plus the RK40, RK43 manuals. I've also got first gen ToyoAce, HiAce Van, Briska and Hilux manuals - guess what this anorak collects for a hobby :) The PK3# and PK4# (ie starting with P) are the ToyoAce models (aka Toyota 25) with a flat nose - even though a leading R normally means an R series engine, Toyota broke their code for these models and the PK3#/4# Toyoace has a mix of P and R series engines. I will spend sometime over the next few days checking for things like which model had which engine, dimensions, wheel size, front suspension (coil vs leaf), dates, etc.
A bit of web searching showed me the name Toyopet (トヨペット) Lite Stout (ライトスタウト) at http://page2.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b136278409#enlargeimg . Web searches are easier in Japanese - well, easier to find more stuff but my Japanese ain't so good :)  Stepho  talk  13:16, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Oh, nearly forgot. Came across this tin scale model PK30 while looking for other tin Toyota cars. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tin-Japan-Nomura-TN-Toyota-Toyoace-1th-generation-pick-up-Rare-50s-car-/160820444776?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_146&hash=item2571a53e68 There are a few Ebbro ToyoaAce models there too but the tin plate one is as old as the real vehicle.  Stepho  talk  13:30, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
More confusion: This scan shows a drawing of an RK45/100 which is meant to symbolize the RK41 (although it is clearly not an RK41, the taillights of which are mounted flush beneath the bumper). The fact that they're recycling a technical drawing doesn't bother me, but the length and wheelbase are jarring: 104.5 and 170 inches are both significantly longer than what my sources state for the RK40 (2654 and 4318mm rather than 2600 and 4285). In other interesting notes, the extension to the cab also necessitated a redesigned bed to stay under the 4700mm maximum length. Perhaps they simply extended the wheelbase of the Light Stout, rather than have to design a new bed? That would explain the differing length compared to the RK40. The US market RK41 definitely has the cab extension, as can be seen here.  Mr.choppers | ✎  14:06, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Stepho, congrats on the manuals. Any chance of getting the exact dimensions (length, wheelbase, and length of bed in particular) of the RK40 and RK43? Cheers,  Mr.choppers | ✎  14:42, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

with the 1967 and later 12R lite stouts they come up quite often on ebay and gumtree australia, this year alone there would have been six. i was looking through my bits in my shed for the model plate of the one i pulled a motor and gearbox, radiator out of, it had caught fire and had burnt the cab only out. as it is located in mildura victoria and i am in queensland i can not just have a look at it, although i did send emails to the ones on gumtree asking for more details with no luck, might have to call. there is a 1961 RK45 for sale on carsales, it is the one that appears in all australian manuals produced by theiss and the owner in an email (prior to it being put up for sale) said that he has all the theiss manuals (including service) for them as he obtained it all from the toyota australia takeover of the former theiss toyota. i found this out in the attempt to find the history of my own 1962 RK45 and as i understand my 62 was a service unit and worked on the construction of the queensland beef roads, the start of the queensland coal fields, the final stages of the snowy mountains hydro scheme and then retired. if i am also right my 1962 was one of the first to have the holden six adapter as the R engine struggled in the hills loaded with tools and at times towing a trailer. at the time i only removed the complete cab and left the chassis at the scrap metal yard (north west victoria). i was not interested in the holden six modification as it had cut the chassis betond repair and was not legal in queensland, it still had the big vice, mounts for the flashing lights and signs of where large tool boxes had been cut off the tray.

any way thumbs up on the new changes on the stout page, would like to find out more about the lite stouts with the 12R as last night sleep was not on my mind. a few photos on the page to show each model would be good (i have no idea how to do that nor am i interested) chris yandaran — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whysmee (talkcontribs) 01:06, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

And cheers to you - photos pretty much have to be taken by interested editors such as ourselves, personally I have never seen a Stout so I don't think I'll be much help. I would love to be able to find a reference of some sort for the 12R-engined Stouts.  Mr.choppers | ✎  02:23, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
For that camper advert: RK40 is a reasonable match for length but the diagram is not as clear as it could be (is bed width inside measurement, outside measurement or camper insert width?) But give me time to trawl through the manuals and add the specs for all the models.  Stepho  talk  05:04, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

i can try and obtain more photos, i have some photos of certain models that i have permission and can try to get permission for some more. i was given permission to use the photos of the 1961 RK45 that is on carsales, i should be able to get permission to use a certain blue australian 1965 RK43, a black japanaesse 1963 RK100 and i can go back on facebook, i left facebook yet i can try and get some more photos through the toyota stout page as well as try different forums. email yehright @ virginbroadband . com . au for contact — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whysmee (talkcontribs) 06:40, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


just back on facebook and the south african version is registered as a 1964 stallion/stout is a RK44 with a 5R on it's model plate although these were built in south africa and have a tray body that is impressive and were built in australia, have photos of it, waiting on permission to be able to share. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whysmee (talkcontribs) 07:12, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Wow, who knew this would all be so complex? Be aware that the uploading of others' photos through the Commons is a very complex process (see Commons OTRS). I'll be happy to help you out if you run into any problems. I'm intrigued by the RK44, I wonder whether it is on the long or short wheelbase? Also, do we know whether any of the US RK41s had the shorter flatback cabin or were they all of the longer, rounded version?  Mr.choppers | ✎  11:56, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Part 2[edit]

Thanks Stepho for the table. I will add any extra content I may have at hand. Request: could you also include wheelbase and year (when available). I am mystified by how the RK43 manages to be shorter than the RK40 in spite of having a presumably longer cabin? Of course there are differences in bumpers and in front trim, but nonetheless. This would be a nice table to include in the article at some point; I wonder if it can be made sortable for ease of organizing by bodystyle?  Mr.choppers | ✎  12:01, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

personally i am not interested in uploading photos on here although i have permission to use photos of some of my contacts, my email address is above otherwise i am easy to find on facebook as i am a moderator of the toyota stout page and it is less confusing than this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whysmee (talkcontribs) 13:06, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Wheelbase and years added as requested. Already there is something to see. The RK40/43 had 13" wheels and were smaller then then full-size Stout (wheelbase, height, length, bed size). The 2R RK43 seems to be a simple upgrade to the RK40 in 1968, although with a 50mm longer wheelbase and shorter total length. The RK45 was sold alongside the RK40 and was bigger. The RK45 was upgraded to the 2R RK47 in 1968. The RK100 seems to be identical to the RK45 except for the engine and total carrying capacity and was upgraded to the 5R RK101 in 1968. RK40/45/100 replace by 43/47/101 in 1968 (possibly late 1967 or mid 1968, manuals aren't clear on this). I will trawl through the manuals and see what they say about cab size and frotn suspension. Note that the 4-door wagon (curiously with 2 off-side doors, one driver-side door and one rear gate) is called the Stout Light Van but is not the same as the Light Stout (RK40/43). I thought I had the American Stout data but it turns out to be a hole in my collection :( I've also got a pile of RK110 data but I'll leave that to later.  Stepho  talk  05:01, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
In Japan, "Light Van" simply means a van/wagon with glazed windows. Here, "light" signifies luminescence (glazing) rather than weight. Aside from that, I am extremely happy to point out that the 5cm increase in wheelbase for the RK43 supports my notions of what happened and when. As soon as my (lovely but time-consuming) family goes back home I will work out a proper plan of all of these Stout derivatives.  Mr.choppers | ✎  07:03, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

ok here is a spanner in the works: RK45 was replaced by the RK100 and it often has RK100-J post cab extension as it's cab did not get extended and was then sold in japan only, the RK100-J was then replaced by the extended cab version RK101 when the 3R was replaced by the 5R . RK40 was replaced by the RK43, RK41 was replaced by the RK41-L 1965 with the cab extension. the RK45 was at first replaced by the RK100 and the RK100 was replace by the RK47 in export markets only 1965 and was replaced by the RK101. now the RK43 had the body upgrades as the RK101 and was sold along side the RK101 until the end of production of the 2R engine in 1971. the question now is the two years post 1971 where the lite stouts had a 12R?, as looking at some of my photos and notes the lite stout i pulled the 12R out of was a 1973. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whysmee (talkcontribs) 07:53, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Doh! Thanks to Mr Choppers for correcting my US RK43L to US RK41L.  Stepho  talk  09:47, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

if you google stout 2200 there is a 1992 model currently that comes up, it surprised me as 1988 was the latest i had seen them and i thought they had a 4Y but a 20R makes more sense. RK100 shared the same platform as the toyoace/dyna as well as a bus version, the RK100, RK110 and RK111 had a full floating rear axle and were 2 ton and the platform was shared with other cab over steer models. the RK47 and RK101 were a semi full floating RK47 1.75 ton, RK101 1.5 ton, curb weight of around 1,400kg pending load deck and a GVW of 6,900LB 2,970kg (RK101 australian standards 1973-). all is good with the updating, yet it would be nice to see the table of models that is below on the main page so it is clear to be seen by all internet novices and so anyone can see it with a basic internet search if they click on the wikipedia thing... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whysmee (talkcontribs) 11:23, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure the RK45 was replaced by the RK100? The Japanese data implies that the RK40,45,100 were sold side-by-side in Japan (40 being light duty, small body; 45 heavier duty with small bodylarge body and small engine; 100 being heavier duty with larger body). It also implies that they were upgraded in late 1967 for new engines and the Lite Stouts got bigger bodies (RK40→RK43, RK45→RK47, RK100→RK101). This might be different for international markets. In "Toyota - A History of the First 50 Years" on page 173 it says that the Stout was assembled in S.Africa (among other places) in June 1962 with the 1500cc engine but was soon replaced by the 1900cc engine due to S.African highway speeds being higher than the speeds used in Japan. Presumably this may have happened in other markets like S.America and Australia. See new data in the specs section for Australian models list in "The Long Run".

So far you have given us many good pointers but no references to back them up. Wikipedia requires that we back up all claims that are likely to be challenged. It sounds like you have researched your vehicle in depth - can you point us to some of your sources?  Stepho  talk  00:22, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

As I have already said, the RK45 continued alongside the RK100. I have period brochure scans from the time. As for the loads, it is impossible to compare numbers issued in different markets as regulations and methods of measurement are so completely different. I don't know what the differences of an Australian and an American "half-tonner" are, but the only thing I can say with any confidence is that they're not the same... I will make a little table explaining the versions and their histories.  Mr.choppers | ✎  18:11, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Here is a catalog scan from October 1962, when the RK100 was introduced. As can clearly be seen, the 1500cc R engine continued to be available on the long chassis (=RK45) with 1.75 ton max capacity. While perhaps the Lite Stout spelled the end of the RK45 in Australia, it certainly continued to be available in other markets, presumably until the RK47 came along.  Mr.choppers | ✎  19:06, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

i have just private emailed stepho on this topic. the RK45 had bad sales, yes it was sold along side the RK100 at a reduced price and only the image of the RK100 is shown. this is still practiced now as end of year run out models and as example 08 plated models being sold in 09 at a reduced price. the RK47 did replace RK45, the RK101 replaced both RK47 and RK100 and had the 2 ton full floating axle as well as the 1.75 ton semi full floating axle that was sold in australia as a 1.5 ton extended cab version. the google translated version of the asahi-net link is. At that time, the price of 716,000 yen 2 t 1900 car 1500 1,75 t car has become a 670,000 yen. i hope that helps slightly — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whysmee (talkcontribs) 01:53, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Mr choppers RK40 1962 replaced by the RK43 1964 for 1965 til end of the 2R engines production in 1971 RK45 sold along side RK100 til it sold out, RK100 1900 then offered both 1.75 and 2 ton versions. RK47 1900 replaced RK45 1964/65. RK101 2000 replaced both RK47 1500/1900 (possible 1900 australia), RK100 1900 1967/68 RK41 1900 1963 became RK41-L 1964/65-68, RK40 is pre cab extension. this info contained in this post should be able to be cross referenced with the info in the specs below "i hope" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whysmee (talkcontribs) 03:18, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I shifted the following from the specs section to here in order to keep the raw data and the speculations/comments/conclusions separate from the data itself.  Stepho  talk  08:27, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Re Chilton's US data: Since this US manual only covers N.American models, I'm not sure what to make of the RK43 and RK1003. Perhaps it also covers some RK43 S.American models. perhaps the RK1003 should be the RK100. It also says the Stout engine is the 3-R (common mistake of dash in wrong place), not the 3R-B, but it does says the Corona had the 3R-B (i.e. not saying '3R' to cover all variants of the engine). But it also says the Stout compression ration is 8.0, same as the Corona, so this manual may not be a reliable source.  Stepho  talk  08:27, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I shifted the following from the specs section to here in order to keep the raw data and the speculations/comments/conclusions separate from the data itself.  Stepho  talk  08:27, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Based on the above tables and overall inputs, here is what seems most likely to have occurred with the second generation Stout (only up 'til 1974, as things don't seem to change much after that and only the RK101 remains available?). Also, these dates are rather vague, I don't know if all major model changes occurred at the same time in 1967?
  1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974  
Short
light
RK40 (1500) RK43 (1500? 1600?)  ? Lite Stout
RK41 (1900) Stout 1900 (US)
Long
heavy
RK45 (1500) RK47 (1500? 1600?)  ? Stout 1500
RK100 (1900) RK101 (2000) → Stout 1900/2000
 Mr.choppers | ✎  18:38, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

"A history of the first 50 years" says that in late 1962 the 1500 became the 1900. It doesn't say if the bed length or springs changed, so it could be the RK41 (coil, short) or the heavier duty RK100 (leaf long). Like Mr Choppers, I'll assume it's the RK100 but I reserve the right to change my mind, in which case the RK41 would start in late 1962 - two years before it went to the US in 1964.

I assume the RK40 was the first model (having the lowest model number). But we really need a solid reference to this generation starting in 1940. The RK45 seems to be the long bed, long chassis version of the RK40. The RK100 seems to be the heavy duty version, perhaps due to S.African use/abuse at 100km/hr on dirt roads.

When I said above that RK40 and RK45 were sold sold-by-side, I also meant that they were also manufactured side-by-side. The parts catalogues normally (but not always) mention when a vehicles has gone out of production or has been superceded by a new model. The catalogues nearly always mention a date, frame number or engine number when a major changed occured. But the manual for the RK45/100 and the manual for the RK47/100 just list the models side-by-side, and makes no mention of RK45 giving way to the RK100. And why would the RK45 be replaced by the almost identical RK47 (only major change being to tiny 1453cc to 1490cc engine size change)? Merely selling end of model run-ons doesn't quite fit in my mind. But I am open to any references that prove me wrong (factory sales charts, factory production charts, brochures, magazine reports, etc).

Then in 1967 the 1453cc R engines are replaced by 1490cc 2R engines, the 1897cc 3R engines are replaced by 1994cc 5R engines and the bodies get small size changes (but still in coil+short, coil+long, leaf+long models).

I've assumed that "The Long Run" has made a couple of mistakes (1600cc and RK41). I know that its milestone highlights made small mistakes on other models that I have complete production dates for.

To me the table should look like:

    1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974..1979  
front coil springs short bed RK40 (1453cc R) RK43 (1490cc 2R)  ? Lite Stout
RK41 (1897cc 3R) Stout 1900 (US)
long bed RK45 (1453cc R) RK47 (1490cc 2R)  ? Stout 1500
front leaf springs RK100 (1897cc 3R) RK101 (1994cc 5R) → Stout 1900/2000

Whysmee, this is my best guess based on the facts we have so far (with Mr Choppers interpretation differing a little from mine). Most of the guessing is around 1960-1963 and after 1969. If there's anything that looks wrong then we will need some more sources to back up claims. Tomorrow I will try to add in some stuff on gearboxes (eg the -K means 4 speed floor shift and -J means 4 speed column shift). But even if we stopped right now, we've certainly found a lot more facts using clues from all three of us than what I had found alone. And I don't plan on stopping yet :)  Stepho  talk  14:55, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe that the Light Stout (RK40) appeared until September 1963. A book of mine says "In September 1963 the one-ton RK40 Light Stout appeared. It's overall length was down by 405mm, the wheelbase by 200mm. The front suspension became independent." Here it is in the original Japanese:
1963年9月には、1トン積のRK40型ライトスタウトが追加され、全長が405mm、ホイールベースで200mm短い旧小型サイズになり前輪独立サスに変わった。[1]
I will be happy to provide a scan. Of course it is entirely possible that the Lite Stout was marketed in export only earlier than this, but I doubt it. I fully believe in the engines as listed by Stepho, but also I'm not opposed to the idea that Australian Light Stouts may have received the 12R engine: was it used in other Toyotas sold in Australia at the time?
As for the RK45 not being the lowest number, I have a suggestion: The previous generation was sold as the RK23 (Toyopet 1500 Truck), which became the RK30 after a facelift in April 1958. This was just under 4.3 metres long, but after a change in regulations three months later a longer, heavier duty version was added - called RK35. This date also marked the first use of the "Stout" name. So the lighter duty RK30 (1.5 ton) was sold alongside the heavier duty RK35 (1.75 ton), and when the next generation Stout was introduced they simply called it RK45 so as to leave room for a lighter duty version. As far as I can tell, the RK45 was first. The Japanese WP entry (not always trustworthy, I know) also lists the Lite Stout's introductory date as 1963. It even has it's own page here. It seems that the Lite Stout was not a success in Japan and it withered away after the Toyota Briska and then Hilux appeared after the Hino merger.
As for front suspension, the RK45 was absolutely leaf sprung at the date of intro at least. I can't find any evidence for it being coil sprung in front, although this may be because I only have access to earlier references and things may have changed later on. The source I quote above directly mentions that the Light Stout's independent front suspension was new. As far as I can tell, the RK45/47 has the exact same chassis as the slightly lighter duty RK100-K, the only difference between those two being the engine.
As for the changeover in Australia, the RK45 being replaced by the RK100 makes perfect sense. I don't think that the light duty RK41 existed yet (the coil sprung front suspension not having been developed until the 1963 RK40 anyhow), and why would an Australian buy the probably underpowered RK45 anyhow? The RK45/47 only makes sense in markets where cars are taxed based on engine size, whereas the RK40/43 with its more car-like ride is a good complement to the larger RK100/101.  Mr.choppers | ✎  16:34, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
Mr Choppers has convinced me on most points. Not sure why I thought the RK45 had coil springs but the parts catalogues say leaf springs - memory is the first thing to go :(
For the RK45 being replaced by the RK100, I'd say that it is a regional thing and a blanket statement won't do. We'll need to dig up some more info for particular regions. From "The Long Run" we Aussies seem to have got the RK40 and RK100 (later upgraded to RK43 and RK101) and never got the RK45 at all (like you said, big body and small engine don't make sense for many countries).
According to "Field & Stream", the US RK41L was still around in August 1972 and mentions seeing the 1973 prototype with a 100cc increase for the engine. Yet Toyota USA consistently maintains that the Stout was dropped in 1967 for the Hilux replacement. Not sure what to make of this. Sales of stockpiled vehicles could explain some of it but what of the engine increase for 1973?
"The Long Run" mentions a 1600cc RK43 in 1965. Possibly this was for the 12R, although Toyota normally give it a new model number for engine changes. Or it might just be a mistake in the book (which has many other similar small mistakes).  Stepho  talk  08:27, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

stepho i have a RK45 and going back through my unofficial bits and pieces there were 16 stouts imported to australia at first, 10 RK45 and it seems 6 possible lite stouts. google 1962 toyota stout Floor shift help. another theiss RK45 can be found via google 1962 Toyopet Stout photobucket. and google 1961 toyopet stout. the 1963/64 RK100 are more common as they were sold to the public via theiss and a 64 with a 62 tray was just sold on ebay australia, there is 1963 RK100 rusted out in a paddock not far from where i live. the ones i know exist but do not know what they truly are were imported in grey only post 1964 as were the RK43 lite stout, the only image i can find of one of them is http://www.flickr.com/photos/53032096@N06/4893071162/ and i guess it is a fabled RK47. the RK43 were a 2R til the end of the 2R in 1971, it is those post 1971 that had a 12R and as you state might just have been surplus. the 2R in certain comments i have seen classed as a 1600, yet i think that is because they were known as being bigger that the 1500 R engine they replaced. i keep seeing this tiddle thing and i just got told what it was Whysmee (talk) 10:21, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

i just did a google of YK110 toyota stout, oh no, but wait, there is still more... ha ha Whysmee (talk) 10:41, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

toyota stout YK110 4Y 03/79-09/89 i thought there was a 4Y version, it was sold in europe alongside RK110. Whysmee (talk) 11:12, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi Stepho; regarding the "Field & Stream" article, I think that the "latest model" and the prototype mentioned are HiLuxes and not a Stout. The picture in the article is of a HiLux and the amber turn signals referred to are those of the US market HiLux. Also I have found other sources citing a 1969 discontinuation [3] and [4]. --Pineapple Fez 00:55, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Doh! I missed the single line where he swapped from talking about the Stout to talking about the Hilux.  Stepho  talk  04:10, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Part 3[edit]

Found some interesting S.African info at http://motor-assemblies.blogspot.com.au/ The website has blogspot in its name but the article is so well written that I'm inclined to believe it. Some important points are:

  • Dr Wessels imported first Stout in Oct 1961 (says singular but other sources say 10)
  • In 1963 Motor Assemblies started 1.5 ton Stout with beam front axle (ie leaf springs). Ended in 1968 (although says Motor Assemblies factory's first vehicle was a Stout in May 1971, so 1968 probably meant change from RK100 to RK101).
  • In 1965 Motor Assemblies started Stallion LDV with lower payload, larger cab (attention Mr Choppers) and independent suspension, known as Lite Stout in Japan. Ended in 1969. This seems to correspond to the RK44, although Whysmee sent me a photo of an RK44 id plate with 5R engine details.  Stepho  talk  04:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

This Australian aftermarket parts catalogue corroborates our date guesses so far - although aftermarket parts catalogues often have woeful errors in them. http://www.equipegroup.com.au/uploads/Ultima%20Shock%20Catalogue%20-%20V8.pdf  Stepho  talk  04:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

The plot keeps on thickening. As far as South Africa goes, the RK44 code would make a lot of sense for a 5R-engined Lite Stout, as long as it was introduced after the RK43. As for the YK110 above, my mind is entirely blown. This also means that we have to rewrite the part of the article which states that all Stouts were always powered by R-engines. While I agree with the current method of leaving the article alone until things have become clearer, I will include "Stallion" as an aka. Only for the second gen? Also I'd like to give props for the good sleuthing Whysmee, and I am also glad that you figured out what the tildes (~) are for! And I agree in worrying about parts catalogue problems, a whole set of them replicate a claim that the RK45/47 are "1A/3A" engined and of 1452cc - obviously confused.  Mr.choppers | ✎  05:53, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Stepho, I just read your respond at your talk page: if the RK47/101 load space remained 2,275mm long in Japan, it would mean that only export market Stouts ever received the elongated cab. Meanwhile, the newer shorter cab with low-mounted rear lamps was still used for the 110-series Stout in all markets?  Mr.choppers | ✎  07:27, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Yep, the Japanese long models have 2,275mm beds while the export models are 50mm shorter with 2,225mm beds - but the overall length is identical. I guess they figured all us gaijin need more room for our fat backsides. I'd say the export RK101 is identical to the JDM RK100 apart from 50mm off the bed and 50m into the cab. I didn't check anything for the RK110 because I only have a model list with dates - no detailed dimensions or parts catalogues. 2nd gen is enough to cause headaches, 3rd gen can wait for another week.  Stepho  talk  13:41, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

just commenting on a photo on the facebook group and i thought i would have a look at what i thought was a YK110 photo and yes it is, now just waiting for a reply from the owner and it is in ecudor. Whysmee (talk) 07:12, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Specs[edit]

This is just notes as I find various specs in my manuals, brochures, etc. Comments and discussion about it can go in the section above.

Dimensions in mm unless specified. Dates like 67.09-79.02 means a verified range of Sept 1967 to Feb 1979. Dates like 64 or 64,66 or 64.02 means data was taken from a manual or brochure from 1964 or 1964,1966 or Feb 1964 respectively and that it may not represent true production dates (eg manuals sometimes include vehicles from previous years that are no longer in production).

model name dates body engine market length width height(cab) wheelbase bed (LxWxH) tyres cap(kg)
RK40[2] Toyopet Lite Stout 64 pickup R JDM 4,335 1,695 1,725 2,600 1,880x1,575x425 6.50-13 1,000
RK41L[3] Toyota Stout 12 ton Pickup 64-68 (MY?) pickup 3R (-B?) US 4,318 1,676 1,694 2,654 1,880x1,575x425 7.50-14 454
RK41L[3] Toyota Stout 66 (MY?) pickup camper 3R (-B?) US 4,318 1,694 1,676 2,654 1,930x1,600x1,238 7.50-14
RK43[4] Toyopet Lite Stout 66[5]
68
pickup 2R JDM 4,335[5]
4,285
1,695 1,710 2,650 1,880x1,575x425 6.50-13 1,000
RK45[6] Toyopet Stout 1500 64 pickup R JDM 4,695 1,690 1,750 2,800 2,275x1,575x425 7.00-15 1,750
RK45V[7] Toyopet Stout Light Van 4-door wagon R JDM 4,685 1,690 1,770 2,800 2,080x1,325x1,060 7.00-15 1,000
RK45V-B[7] Toyopet Stout 2-door panel van R JDM 4,690 1,695 1,990 2,800 2,295x1,575x1,205 7.00-15 1,750
RK45P[7] Toyopet Stout Double Cab 4-door pickup R JDM 4,690 1,695 1,750 2,800 1,565x1,575x425 7.00-15 1,000
RK47[8] Toyopet Stout 1500 67 pickup 2R JDM 4,695 1,690 1,750 2,800 2,275x1,575x425 7.00-15 1,750
RK47V[9] Toyopet Stout Lite Van 67 4-door wagon 2R JDM 4,685 1,690 1,770 2,800 2,080x1,325x1,060 7.00-15 1,000
RK47V-B[9] Toyopet Stout Panel Van 67 2-panel van 2R JDM 4,675 1,690 1,990 2,800 2,245x1,560x1,205 7.00-15 1,750
RK47V-C[9] Toyopet Stout Panel Van 67 4-door wagon 2R JDM 4,685 1,690 1,770 2,800 2,080x1,325x1,060 7.00-15 1,000
RK47P[9] Toyopet Stout Double Cab 66, 67 4-door pickup 2R JDM 4,690 1,695 1,750 2,800 1,565x1,575x425 7.00-15 1,000
RK100[6][8] Toyopet Stout 1900 64 pickup 3R-B JDM 4,695 1,690 1,750 2,800 2,275x1,575x425 7.00-15 2,000
RK100-K[10] Toyopet Stout 67 pickup 3R-B JDM 4,690 1,695 1,750 2,800 2,275x1,575x425 7.00-15 1,750
RK100V-K[11] Toyopet Stout Light Van 67 4-door wagon 3R-B JDM 4,685 1,690 1,770 2,800 2,080x1,325x1,060 7.00-15 1,000
RK100V-KB[11] Toyopet Stout Panel Van 67 2-door panel van 3R-B JDM 4,675 1,690 1,990 2,800 2,245x1,560x1,205 7.00-15 1,750
RK100V-KC[11] Toyopet Stout Panel Van 67 4-door wagon 3R-B JDM 4,685 1,690 1,770 2,800 2,080x1,325x1,060 7.00-15 1,000
RK100P-K[11] Toyopet Stout Double Cab 67 4-door pickup 3R-B JDM 4,690 1,695 1,750 2,800 1,565x1,575x425 7.00-15 1,000
RK101[12] Toyopet Stout 68 pickup 5R JDM 4,670 1,695 1,750 2,800 2,275x1,575x425 7.00-15 2,000
RK101-K[12] Toyopet Stout 68 pickup 5R JDM 4,670 1,695 1,750 2,800 2,275x1,575x425 7.00-15 1,750
RK101V-K[12] Toyopet Stout 68 JDM
RK101P-K[12] Toyopet Stout 68 JDM
RK101-J[13][14] RK101L-J[13] Toyota Stout 67.09-79.02 pickup 5R export 4,670 1,695 1,750 2,800 2,225x1,575x425 7.00-15 1,715
RK101P-B[13] RK101LP[13] Toyota Stout Double Cab 67.09-79.02 4-door pickup 5R export

"The Long Run - Toyota - The First 40 Years in Australia" (ie 1951-1991)[15] in Appendix One lists the Stout milestones as follows:

  • 1951-1961 - no mention
  • 1962 - Toyopet Lite Stout 1500cc RK40 and the 1900cc Stout RK101J pickups.
  • 1963 - no mention for any vehicle
  • 1964 - 1900cc 1.5 tonne Stout RK100 in 1964 and the new-look 1500cc Lite Stout RK40 (possibly a mistake that should have been RK43).
  • 1965 - Lite Stout 1600cc Rk43 pickup (possibly called 1600 to avoid confusion with previous 1500 vehicle) and no mention of bigger brother.
  • 1966 - Lite Stout 1 tonne (specifically says RK41/43) with coil front suspension and Stout 1900cc RK100.
  • 1967 - 1.5 tonne Stout RK101, no mention of smaller brother.
  • 1968-1978 - no mention
  • 1979 - revised Stout 1 tonne and 1.5 tonne (RK110 series)
  • 1980-1987 - no mention

Chilton's 1970 Toyota manual[16] mentions 3 differentials: RK43—5.714, RK41—4.875, RK1003—6.167 .

References[edit]

  1. ^ Ozeki, Kazuo (2007). 日本のトラック・バス 1917~1975 [Japanese Trucks and Buses 1917-1975:] (in Japanese). Tokyo: Miki Press. p. 53. ISBN 978-4-89522-487-1. 
  2. ^ Toyopet Light Stout RK40 Parts Catalog (in Japanese). Toyota. 1964. No.53340-64. 
  3. ^ a b "Toyota USA brochure". Toyotareference.com. 1966.  Unknown parameter |accesdate= ignored (|access-date= suggested) (help)
  4. ^ Toyota Light Stout Model RK43 Parts Catalog (in Japanese). Toyota. 1968. No.53328-68. 
  5. ^ a b 品質と価格で奉仕するトヨタ [Quality and value at your service, from Toyota] (brochure) (in Japanese), Japan: Toyota, 1966, p. 7 
  6. ^ a b Toyopet Stout Model RK45-100 Parts Catalog (in Japanese). Toyota. 1964. No.53336-64. 
  7. ^ a b c Toyopet Stout RK45V RK45V-B RK45P Parts Catalog (in Japanese). Toyota. No.53338. 
  8. ^ a b Toyopet Stout Model RK47,RK100 Parts Catalog (in Japanese). Toyota. 1967. No.53346-67. 
  9. ^ a b c d Toyopet Stout Light Van Panel Van Double Cab Parts Catalog (in Japanese). Toyota. 1966. No.53304-66. 
  10. ^ Toyopet Stout RK100-K Parts Catalog (in Japanese). Toyota. 1967. No.53326-67. 
  11. ^ a b c d Toyopet Stout Van RK100V-K Panel Van RK100V-KB Doublepick RK100P-K Parts Catalog (in Japanese). Toyota. 1967. No.53328-67. 
  12. ^ a b c d Toyota Stout Light Van RK101,101-K,101V-K,101P-K Parts Catalog (in Japanese). Toyota. 1968. No.53326-68. 
  13. ^ a b c d Toyota Vehicle Identification Manual. Toyota Export Parts Department. 1984. 
  14. ^ "RK101-J brochure". Retrieved 2012-06-21. 
  15. ^ The Long Run – Toyota: The first 40 years in Australia. South Hurstville: Type Forty Pty Ltd. 1999. ISBN 0-947079-99-8.  |first1= missing |last1= in Authors list (help)
  16. ^ Chilton's repair and Tune-Up guide for the Toyota - Illustrated. Philadelphia: Chilton Book Company. 1970. ISBN 0-8019-5339 Check |isbn= value (help).  Unknown parameter |reprint= ignored (help)

YK110[edit]

The following has been copied from User talk:Stepho-wrs...

There is enough online of stout 2200 4Y to provide evidence that the YK110L - MRH finished 2/2000 via online parts catalogues replaced by the stout II (hilux) http://toyotamarket.ru/gr/681220/ I hope this is enough citation needed as I know via facebook people that own them... and I have no idea how to do things on here — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whysmee (talkcontribs) 12:06, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I found another site for YK110 frame numbers by year and month: http://jnc.farpost.com/data/framno/yk110.html so there's no doubt that the YK110 existed. But now we two problems:
  1. The EPC data is real but the Russian website is an illegal copy of it, so wikipedia can't link to it. We will need to think about how to include your info.
  2. Toyota's 75th birthday website says it ended in 1989, not 2000. There is more corroborating evidence for a 2000 end date, so I'll just assume that the 75th website is talking about the Japanese market only, where the YK110 was never sold.  Stepho  talk  14:28, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I am pretty certain that Japanese Stout sales ended in 1986. Maybe whatever Toyota employee who wrote March 1989 as the ending date simply didn't think to look for the YK-series? I think one can link to an illegal copy as a source. And whysmee, remember to sign with the four squigglies.  Mr.choppers | ✎  16:12, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
The following has been copied from User talk:Mr.choppers

http://toyotamarket.ru/gr/681220/030/3/6452/1/63381E/ I hope this works but with a simple Google images the yk110 Toyota Stout can be found (in russian with full exploded diagrams) and as there are some on the facebook group and so it is sad that the 4y engine stout is not included on the wiki page.

I hope you can upgrade wiki and use such as citation and possibly mention that eventually in the south American market the stout was replaced with the stout II or known elsewhere as hilux post 8/1993 2/2000? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whysmee (talkcontribs) 03:48, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, that's pretty convincing. I won't add it myself but I also won't delete it again if you add it. Cheers,  Mr.choppers | ✎  06:40, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I ask of help as I have no idea of what I am doing, I do not even know how to ask stepho for help — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whysmee (talkcontribs) 08:59, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I'll help you add it, but since Toyota themselves state that Stout production ended in 1989 it's a tough call to make.  Mr.choppers | ✎  15:55, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, it can be a tough call to make when Toyota gives different years. However, I've found that when Toyota write about their own history they tend to make mistakes left right and centre. Or it gets biased towards the local market of the person doing the writing. It's understandable given that they're given a limited time to write these histories and that usually they haven't spent the last 15 years collecting info like we sad, sad, anoraks have. But the EPC parts catalogue (ie as copied at the Russian site) is just dry facts taken straight from their own production records. The occasional transcription error creeps in but generally their parts catalogues are the most trustworthy source. But beware that the EPC comes in 3 editions (Japan, N.America, the rest of the world) and that vehicles only show up in each edition if it is sold in that market. There is corroborating evidence from frame numbers recorded at http://jnc.farpost.com/data/framno/yk110.html that the YK110 was made up to at least Aug 1993 (it's possible that his source was from 1993 and that the vehicle continued on). It's possible that Stout production was moved from the plant in Japan to another country (which?) in 1988/1989 and that the 75th anniversary researcher only saw that the Japanese plant shut down Stout production and didn't notice that it started elsewhere. Toyota also has a frustrating way of doing their parts catalogues. They will have one catalogue that seems to cover every variation of a vehicle. Then I find another catalogue that covers a single, special variation (eg a sports coupe version) that doesn't even appear in the main catalogue at all. Since Toyota never have a single source that mentions all variations and we don't have a complete set of catalogues/manuals (and I suspect Toyota themselves don't have a complete set at a single location), then it is very hard to say that a variation and/or year doesn't exist - it may simply be in a catalogue that we don't have. Very frustrating :(  Stepho  talk  22:59, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Found another clue. At http://toyotamarket.ru/gr/681220 (general), http://toyotamarket.ru/eu/681220 (Europe), http://toyotamarket.ru/jp/681120 (Japan) - but nothing for USA - it shows that:
  1. the RK110/111 finished in Sept 1986, (RK110 finished in Jan 1982 for the Japanese market but they had the RK111 to Mar 1986)
  2. no Stouts were made for 18 months,
  3. YK110 production started in April 1988,
  4. most versions of the YK110 finished in Aug 1993 (agreeing with the frame number data)
  5. only the YK110L-MRH (which was left hand drive) continue on to Feb 2000.  Stepho  talk  23:37, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
And meanwhile, all of these Russian parts catalogues omit the 20R engined version, which Toyota themselves refer to in their 75th anniversary page. Maybe that last YK110L-MRH was only in small numbers for CKD in some peculiar market (like Chile or the Middle East) - since the last generation Stout was somewhat of a "bitza", it couldn't have required much effort to keep it available. Anyhow, we are all very much on the verge of WP:OR if we include too much of this stuff in the article. I enjoy the research thoroughly, but with things so very very vague I have a hard time adjudicating just what should be included. Cheers,  Mr.choppers | ✎  00:14, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
We now return you to our feature film...

The 75th anniversary page says 20R but I think it should have said 4Y. Both engines are 2200cc, the time frame matches the EPC 4Y data and frame numbers data and I can't see any other official mention of a 20R Stout. Like Mr Choppers, I also suspect that the last run of the YK110 was by a subsiduary outside Japan. We can avoid OR by simply reporting facts (even though from disparate sources) and not drawing our own conclusions. Stepho  talk  07:09, 24 January 2013 (UTC)