Talk:Tramadol

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Citation style[edit]

In this edit:

  • A mixture of citation styles that was replaced by a single consistent style.
  • In an older version of the article shows a clear preference for the Vancouver system author style. According to WP:CITEVAR, defer to the style used by the first major contributor. The above edit restored that predominate style.
  • The use of a single author parameter to store multiple authors in the {{cite journal}} has long been accepted and has not been deprecated. Furthermore the Vancouver system is specifically mentioned in {{cite journal}} documentation.
  • The coauthor parameter has been deprecated and the above edit replaced several occurrences of this parameter with a single author parameter.
  • The journal abbreviations in the above edit follow the system used by the National Library of Medicine and PubMed.

The above edit was reverted with the justification that the edit is a violation of WP:CITEVAR. Quite to the contrary, I believe that the above edit is completely consistent with CITEVAR as it restored the originally established citation style. Hence I propose to restore the the above edit. Is there consensus to revert the reversion? Boghog (talk) 19:49, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

This is being discussed at Help talk:Citation Style 1#What's the point?. This article didn't use the Vancouver system, it used a hybrid system that used some features from Citation Style 1 (quote marks around journal article titles, italics for books and journal titles) and some from Vancouver (separating author names with commas, writing author names as "Jones J" rather than "Jones, J.". The documentation for {{tl}cite journal}} mentions the Vancouver system, but does not describe it correctly. None of the other cite xxx templates that I can find mention Vancouver. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:23, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • This article didn't use the Vancouver system – an earlier version did and according to WP:CITEVAR, the originally established citation style does matter.
  • None of the other cite xxx templates that I can find mention Vancouver – irrelevant. Boghog (talk) 20:35, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • but does not describe it correctly – Fixed in this edit. Boghog (talk) 20:42, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
The earlier version mentioned by Boghog did not use the Vancouver system. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:42, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
It did use an Vancouver system author style. Boghog (talk) 21:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

This stripping of journal names down to impenetrable crap like Expert Opin Pharmacother, and author names into run-together gibberish like "Jones HB, Smith TE, Garcia XJ", has to stop. This is not your journal, and WP certainly does not have to follow the excessively compressed and jargonistic style preferred by the journals you read. See the essay WP:Specialist style fallacy for an analysis of why attempts to impose on Wikipedia some style quirk from specialist publications is usually both a bad idea and a failure.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  20:51, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

It is not your journal either. Are you suggesting that we repeal WP:CITEVAR? And why is "Jones, H.B.; Smith, T.E.; Garcia, X.J." necessarily better than "Jones HB, Smith TE, Garcia XJ"? The later is much cleaner and easier to read. Boghog (talk) 21:05, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
With respect to the author format, the WP:specialist style fallacy, does not apply. IMHO, the Vancouver author format is more readable for both specialist and non-specialists. It is also easier for non-specialist editors. Hence I believe that the KISS principle is far more relevant in this context. Boghog (talk) 21:14, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Finally the journal name abbreviations is a side issue. I have restored the full journal names in this edit. Boghog (talk) 02:17, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

On stuffing multiple authors into '[co]authors='[edit]

Both of you seem to be abusing the coauthor/authors parameter. Why not break out each author into last-first parameters? E.g.:

|last1= Raffa |first1=  RB
|last2= Buschmann |first2=  H
|last3= Christoph |first3=  T
|last4= Eichenbaum |first4=  G
|last5= Englberger |first5=  W
|last6= Flores |first6=  CM
|last7= Hertrampf |first7=  T
|last8= Kögel |first8=  B
|last9= Schiene |first9=  K
|last10= Straßburger |first10=  W
|last11= Terlinden |first11=  R
|last12= Tzschentke |first12=  TM

Is this just too much trouble? Or is there some other reason? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:44, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

The coauthor parameter is deprecated while a single author parameter is not. Why use verbose "first1, last1, first2, last2" parameters? To generate metadata that no one uses? The use of verbose author parameters overwhelms the wikitext making it harder for editors to locate and edit the text. The purpose of the citations is to support the prose, not the other way around. Boghog (talk) 21:56, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
I believe the 'author=' parameter is intended mainly for cases (such as corporate or group authorship) where 'first/last' is not appropriate. To use it as a replacement for 'coauthors=' is just a way of getting around the ban on the latter. If reducing verbosity is the highest priority, then why bother using templates at all? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:30, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
The templates save space by providing doi, pmc, and pmid links and also insure consistent formatting. Hence using a single author parameter (especially if there a large number of authors) within a cite template IMHO represents a good compromise between functionality, consistency, and compactness. Boghog (talk) 01:35, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Also, as I have stated above, the use of a single author parameter to store multiple authors in the {{cite journal}} template has long been accepted and has not been deprecated. Boghog (talk) 01:38, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I am for consistency. As long is this is the same format the cite template generate in the edit bar. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:46, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

So verbosity is not an overriding consideration in whether to use templates, and the trade-off with other factors is somewhat a matter of personal taste. Okay. I think this use of the 'author=' parameter is bad practice, not justified by long use, but probably not worth debating. ~ 20:08, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

"Tramadol has been recently found in a South African tree."[edit]

this needs to be rephrased at least bc Tramadol is a trade name not scientific name. 74.60.161.158 (talk) 17:50, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Tramadol isn't a brand name, it's the generic name, hence it's also a scientific name. It is the name set by several medical associations including: the World Health Organization, the American Medical Association, the British Pharmacopoeia and the Therapeutic Goods Administration. Plus if you have this attitude and maintain that tramadol still isn't a scientific name and rather favour a chemical name then we might as well rename the whole article by its chemical name. Which as per WP:PHARMMOS and WP:CHEMMOS we do not do and hence I fail to see why we should do so for this one sentence. Brenton (talk|email) (I automatically watch all pages I edit) 18:06, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
What attitude did the poster have? He/she posted a statement that was in error but thought it was correct so brought it up in the talk section. I'm not sure why you need to get defensive about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.36.10.247 (talk) 21:22, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Legal Status[edit]

Removed, "Similarly, unlike opioid analgesics, tramadol is not currently scheduled as a controlled substance by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration. However, it is controlled in certain states", from Australia paragraph in the "Legal Status" section because it makes no sense to mention the DEA and USA laws in the Australia paragraph. The paragraph preceding the above mentioned paragraph talks about USA laws in regards to Tramadol, including the DEA's recent announcement to actually federally schedule Tramadol as a Schedule 4 controlled substance under the Controlled Substances Act. The states that have already scheduled Tramadol have been mentioned in the paragraph preceding the Australia paragraph and mentioning it again in the Australia paragraph is not only redundant, but doesn't belong in a paragraph about Australia's Tramadol laws. User "Boghog" has undone my above change, so I discussed my change here and will undo his action to revert my work. Thank you for your understanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EDSandPOTSY (talkcontribs) 07:14, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Can someone update the status of the patents on the drug? Its a couple months past the May 2014 date so unless something happened to extend the patent which it seemed to be going the other way (moving forward the date the patent is expired) then it is outdated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.36.10.247 (talk) 21:24, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

In Spain this medication is freely available without a prescription from pharmacist shops. Source: personal experience (shingles pain treatment) EdX20 (talk) 20:54, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. I was prescribed some recently by my doctor at the VA, in Los Angeles. I had to sign for it at the VA pharmacy, just as I would have for Vicodin. JDZeff (talk) 19:25, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

R/S nomenclature mistake!![edit]

(1R,2R)-Tramadol and (1S,2S)-Tramadol are switched in the image of Tramadol also (1R,2R)-O-desmethyltramadol and (1S,2S)-O-desmethyltramadol are switched in the Pharmacokinetics part (for confirmation I used Marvin sketch)and I have already changed it — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ph.David (talkcontribs) 18:32, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

For comparison, ChemDraw assigned your diagrams the opposite of what you say, and also I got the opposite display when used Marvin (online) to set specific stereochemistry to an originally achiral diagram:
Tramadol as a racemic mixture (modified).png Untitled ACS Document 1996-1.png MarvinSketch-stereo.png
Ph.David's image DMacks from ChemDraw DMacks from Marvin
Considering C2 of the right-hand structure (where the aminomethyl group is attached wedged), I calculate CIP precedence order of C1 ("C with O") > methylamino ("C with N") > C3 ("CH2") > H (implicit). The least significant is dotted, so the 1→2→3 going counterclockwise means S (in agreement with ChemDraw and not with yours). What is your analysis of that location? Can you post an actual screenshot or exported image from Marvin with its result? DMacks (talk) 08:20, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


I used MarvinSketch too and it found that Ph.David's assignment of R and S was incorrect. I think you (Ph.David) must have got the two structures confused, because the original svg was accurate. Brenton (contribs · email · talk · uploads) 08:34, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I updated my original comment about ChemDraw to include my Marvin result after Brenton added his note. DMacks (talk) 08:39, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


I got the confusion ..... When I imported the IUPAC name of tramadol without R/S nomenclature and drawed the wegde and dash notation ... the draw was rotated

Rotated draw

so the R/S nomenclature switched

while the original draw of Tramadol gives me your nomenclature Brenton& DMacks

Original draw

but I have a QUESTION what if the original Tramadol structure was that rotated one ?? then the nomenclature theory would be just a scratch !! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ph.David (talkcontribs) 13:18, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Your rotated drawing gives the wrong nomenclature because it is rotated with respect to the original. Now the original cannot be rotated with respect to itself. By the way, you could have a look at Cahn–Ingold–Prelog priority rules and work out the nomenclature without the aid of computer programmes. This is a good practice for one's 3D imagination :-) Cheers --ἀνυπόδητος (talk) 17:24, 22 September 2014 (UTC)