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Velar trill impossible
Although I'm being told everywhere that a velar trill has been judged impossible, I'm pretty confident I have little trouble pronouncing it (and it being different from the uvular and palatal trills). Hence my question: What is the reasoning and evidence with which linguists have concluded this?
--JorisvS 15:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- You're probably pronouncing either a velarized uvular trill (which is quite distinct in sound from a plain uvular trill), a velopharyngeal trill (soft palate trilled against the pharynx; aka snore) or just gargling saliva. What's supposedly impossible is trilling the tongue dorsum against the velum. Mind you, trilling it against the uvula is just as impossible, so the terminology is kind of misleading.
- What I'd like to kno, tho, is why the palatal trill isn't judged impossible. I can pronounce everything from epiglottal implosivs to apical velars, but can't do anything even resembling that one. (Older IPA charts I've seen indeed have that struck out, but not the velar.) --Tropylium (talk) 21:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I didn't think the Roll Up the Rim link was relevant to this at all, so I removed it. TheThinWhiteDuke 20:03, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I can do a trill with the tongue against the upper lip. Pretty similar to the bilabial trill, but clearly not the same sound. Is there a name for this? Grover cleveland 05:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, I see that's the Bronx cheer. Maybe it deserves a mention in the main article body as well as the "See also" section? Grover cleveland 05:29, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The technical term for the Bronx cheer is linguolabial trill, which is mentioned in the Linguolabial consonant article, but it has no page of its own. It probably doesn't meet the notability requirements to have an article on the linguolabial trill and add the Bronx cheer and other paralinguistic uses of it as a subsection, since it's so rare in natural language. Though I'm not sure about that. Perhaps someone more familiar with this area and with the specifics of the notability requirements could help out? I'm no linguist. Miroku Sanna (talk) 17:11, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
What the person is talking about is NOT the Bronx cheer / blowing a raspberry. I know exactly what they're talking about because I recently learned to do it as well. You can see one form of it in this Youtube video (there are three examples, it's the middle example).
Basically, I can do three distinct linguolabial trills. The one I've been able to do all my life is the Bronx cheer. This is a very high frequency / low amplitude trill, very unlike a bilibial trill. The other two are very similar to a bilabial trill, but involve the tongue rather than one of the lips. Obviously there are two kinds - one using the lower lip and one using the upper lip. Both sound very similar. I learned the lower lip one first, though I was trying to learn the upper lip one (I was trying to use that Youtube video to learn to do an alveolar trill - still can't get it). I first learned that the lower linguolabial trill existed when I saw a friend do it when we were talking about learning the alveolar trill. The first time I managed it was immediately after doing tongue exercises - I sometimes do "pushups" with my tongue, leaning against glass and trying to use my tongue to push me away. So if you want to try to learn it as well, maybe you could try that. -- 22.214.171.124 (talk) 12:46, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Uvular trill also rare?
I can pronounce something by vibrating my tongue against my incisors. It seems like it would be a "dental trill", but I can't find anything regarding such a phone. What is it?126.96.36.199 (talk) 19:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Voiceless alveolar trill
Icelandic has a voiceless alveolar trill, though I am unsure whether or not it is a full phoneme or just an allophone of 'r' after certain consonants. Which is it? --Se Cyning —Preceding comment was added at 03:57, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
A laymans defintion
How about a laymens defintion. I am not a linguist and after reading half this article I still don't know what a trill. I have some incling after seeing reference to the roll up the rim link that it is rolling of the consonant. (?) I still don't know. It would be nice, and might I suggest? that you have a brief overview at the beggening, such as... "A trill is commonly undertood as.... then go into your compicated linguists deffintion (not that I am hating on that).
- "Rolled R" generally refers to an alveolar trill, while the uvular trill is one of the many types of guttural R, and the bilabial trill really has no good layman's definition whatsoever. Maybe we could fudge together a term such as "rolled B", but that strikes me as just as opaiq as "bilabial trill". Still, good point, "rolled R" could make a good example. --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 10:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I think I understand these terms, but I'm not sure. I'm also not a linguist. I have some more questions.
Growling seems distinct from any variety of the R sound. Clearing the throat also seems distinct from growling. Coughing seems distinct from the K sound. What would be the terms for those? Thanks. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 21:40, 14 January 2011 (UTC)NotWillDecker
- The first two would most likely be the epiglottal trill and a voiceless epiglottal fricative (or voiceless pharyngeal fricative), respectivly. Coughing is not a specific articulation as much as an airstream mechanism. --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 22:02, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Japanese R sound
- It's usually described as an alveolar lateral flap (so, not a trill). --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 18:54, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- Very similar to the bilabial trill, except using just the upper lip; the teeth cannot contribute. I actually think it's easier to pull off than proper [ʙ]. I'm unaware of this being attested as a speech sound however. --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 18:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
- I can make two distinct bilabial trills, but if I try to involve my (upper) teeth, I can't trill anything. The teeth prevent the lip from vibrating. I'll make my question more specific: how can one make one's lower lip trill with one's upper teeth against it? --JorisvS (talk) 09:21, 26 August 2012 (UTC)