|↓||Skip to table of contents||↓|
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Tudor dynasty article.|
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
- 1 Question
- 2 Formatting problem
- 3 Family tree
- 4 Descendents of Edward IV and Henry VII
- 5 Edward IV
- 6 Major Revision Needed
- 7 The Welsh connection?
- 8 Edit speculation
- 9 Vandalization?
- 10 Owen Tudor
- 11 Welsh royal dynasty?
- 12 Category:House of Dinefwr vs. Category:House of Tudor
- 13 Revisions Needed: Mary I and Wyatt's rebellion
- 14 Oh Dear!!
- 15 Please explain
- 16 Move to House of Tudor
- 17 Move?
- 18 'Fall' of the House of Lancaster
- 19 New article: The Tudors of Penmynydd
- 20 File:Book of common prayer 1549.jpg Nominated for Deletion
- 21 File:Tudor war ship.JPG Nominated for Deletion
- 22 Tewdwr vs. Tudur
Is the man on the left of the picture Philip II of Spain ? --Imran 00:12 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)
- "Yes, the only husband of Queen Mary I of England. User: Dimadick
- Its him, I recognize the face from other pictures. Muriel Victoria
From the page:
There's a formatting problem here - if you look at the wives of Henry VII, for example, each one after the first has a bullet-point next to them to keep the lists correctly formatted. That point shouldn't really be there, because it looks as though they are daughters rather than daughters-in-law of Henry VII. Try to ignore it. The same happens with other multiple marriages.
- This problem is now somewhat solved with a new format. Multiple marriages still aren't entirely clear, though. Onebyone 17:56, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Arthur's marriage to Catherine is not disputed: it was the basis for the request of annulment that Henry VIII cited to the pope. (Since he wanted to marry Anne Boleyn) he argued that Catherine was his sister and therefore the whole union was incestuous. The pope refuse this argument, probably because men marrying his brothers widows was common practice. Henry didn't like that and said: pope no more! The rest of the story everybody knows... Muriel Victoria 15:36, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- There's more to it than that, though - in order to marry Catherine in the first place Henry had to get papal approval. It was this approval which disputes the marriage, since it was against church law at the time to marry your brother's widow (or your sister's widower - when Elizabeth was considering marriage to Philip of Spain this was again an issue). So saying that the marriage wasn't even disputed is taking Henry's side, since it was indeed disputed, by Henry, when it suited hs purposes... Onebyone 15:39, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- Margaret was born in 1443, not 1433. See ODNB: Michael K. Jones and Malcolm G. Underwood, ‘Beaufort, Margaret , countess of Richmond and Derby (1443–1509)’, Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004 accessed 28 Aug 2007 PeterSymonds 10:23, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Descendents of Edward IV and Henry VII
What sort of social rank would one have to bear in their family, in order to be a descendent of either?
How far up the totem pole, would you say?
This is intended to have broad answers and based on gradients of time and population, not going into specifics about exact descendents. About how common is their descent in the English or British genepool today?
I've noticed that American Presidents don't descend from either king, but the most common recent royal ancestor shared by many of us is Edward III. How common is it for anybody in the English or British genepool, to have a Protestant royal ancestor?
There is a general cutoff, isn't there?
Is it because of fratricide in the Wars of the Roses, the Tudors' "new men", or the Union of the Crowns, or the parliamentary union under Queen Anne (I can't think of any non-royal family descent from the Hanoverians within the UK)?
I'm thinking that there is a big difference between Plantagenet and Tudor descents, that the commons in all likelihood have the former and the latter is held by the lords. (just generally speaking) Then again, Tudor descent in the Welsh must be higher in general. I am further curious about pre-Royal Tudor blood in Anglo-British people today, since the status and/or concept of Welsh royalty/nobility is rather hazy in my mind. I found the Blevins aka Ap Bleddyn family of Powys in my ancestry, but have no real idea on what to make of it--or any other Welsh "native aristocracy". I might be able to find Stewart descent somewhere, from way back when. What percentage of Hanoverian background do you think that German colonists had in America?
On the British side, I have to go as far back as Welf himself...but any recent genetic relationship with the Hanoverians or the counts of Nassau are completely obscure. How does one research those other colonial people, such as the Hessians?
UK genealogy is relatively easy when focusing on English (and French) ancestries. What would a "national person" of Jerusalem (or Antioch, for example) in Crusader times be known as?
We say "American" for those Founders, but was there such a nationality-term for the Crusaders in their own domains?
I guess the term is supposed to be Levantine/Outremer, or "Crusader" as our national heritage says "Colonist"...
IP Address 12:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
To call them Protestant royal anscestors is incorrect as the English royal family didnt become protestant until the reigns of Edward VI and Elizabeth I and possibly beforehand arguably in Henry VIII's reign though he saw himself as a Catholic just not in league with the pope Penrithguy 21:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- Both kings are survived only in the female line. Their descendants include the modern British Royal Family, many noble families, and far more people who are just plain old 'Mr', Mrs' or 'Miss', and probably have no idea of their family connection. The 16th Century was a LONG time ago. Indisciplined (talk) 18:22, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
In the table of The Tudor House (right top corner) the first king is named Eduard IV and, if I am not mistaken it should be Henry VII. Am I right or wrong.
- You are right, it should be Henry VII.--Johnbull 18:06, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Major Revision Needed
At the moment, this page is awful. We need to decide what it should be (an analysis of how England changed between 1485-1603, perhaps?), since at the moment it's just a ramble of historical trivia and errors... Hackloon 00:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'd agree. I've no specialist knowledge of this topic so can't comment on the factual accuracy but it seems disjointed, confusing and is full of non-sequitors.Mutt Lunker 09:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed. Pretty bad article. Too much trivial detail about the marriages without any context. The "Feudal Circumstances" is at the very least poorly named. The War of the Roses pretty much ended "medieval feudalism" in England. If there was a common theme throughout the Tudor era it was reformation and the politics between nobility at the court.
- This article doesn't have to try to be too much. All it really needs is a simple list of monarchs, the origin of the Tudor family, and what ended the dynasty. Then perhaps a simple bulleted list linking to articles containing highlights of the era (reformation, spanish armada, Shakespeare, renaissance, etc). (None of these highlights really need to be spelled out here unless they deal specifically with the Tudor family). DavidRF 01:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- I've just read this article and agree it's awful and in need of revision. Whilst I'm not a specialist, I think the 'Feudal Circumstances' section could be replaced with two shorter sections about the origins of the Tudor/Tewdwr family going back to Owain Tudor, and back further perhaps to The Lord Rhys and the eponymous Welsh ancestor Tewdwr. The second section could be about the rise of the Tudor family during the Wars of the Roses. Then a list of monarchs and a brief biography with links to the main pages for each. This would improve the article much - at the moment it's a disjointed list of advanced academic minutiae with no context whatsoever. firstfox 09:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with all the above comments. There are major errors that need to be fixed. The grammar is bad and some of the facts are wrong. I will begin a major revision today. PeterSymonds 18:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- Major revision complete. PeterSymonds 10:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Please remember people this is a discussion of the Tudor Dynasty and NOT the Tudor Period, which has it's own article. In line with the other articles on Royal houses, this article should be primarily concerned with the dynasty, and not the age in which it reigned. The article is still far too long and contains too much that is off-topic. Indisciplined (talk) 22:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
The Welsh connection?
- Added information about the Tudor's Welsh descent from the Welsh Prince Rhys ap Gruffydd. This is the link to Wales. PeterSymonds 10:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Anne of Cleves was a foreign princess. I don't think it's accurate to call her "Yorkist." Also, what this about Henry's only loving Jane Seymour? Granted, he probably loved her best since she was meek and produced a son, but he does seem to have "loved" all his wives except Anne of Cleves. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 184.108.40.206 (talk)
- Yes, it is likely that Henry only loved her because she produced a son. The fact that he was buried with her means little; he couldn't be buried with Catherine of Aragon, because he was technically never married to her; Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard were traitors and buried at the Chapel of St Peter ad Vincula in the Tower of London; Anne of Cleves and Catherine Parr were still alive at his death. Jane was the only wife who died while she was technically still married to Henry, and the mother of his son. PeterSymonds 10:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Royal House template
As the House of York is a cadet branch of the House of Plantagenet, and the Yorkist took the surname Plantagenet, is it correct to describe it separately to the House of Plantagenet, in the "Royal Houses" succession template?
The Yorkists are listed as part of the House of Plantagenet in the List of monarchs of England page, not separately to it, and included in the list of Plantagenet Kings in the House of Plantagenet page.
Hey, Does the House of Grey count as a cadet branch of the House of Tudor? I mean, Jane Grey was a Tudor by her mother, But her mother married into the house of Grey... Also, what about the house of Dudley? She married Guildford Dudley, so doesn't she become a member of his house? Just a thought... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 00:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I have removed this text re: Anne Boleyn: "It is supposed that perhaps Anne was Rh- and after her first child all successive pregnancies were at risk." The item is not sourced, is in any case supposition, and does not belong in an encyclopedic article, unless one wants to go into all of the various theories as to why Henry produced so few viable children; his conjectural syphilis is a favorite. And if we do that, we need to source the theories so readers can decide for themselves whether any particular one is by an M.D. or whatever. - PKM (talk) 03:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
"The Tudor dynasty or House of Tudor (Welsh: Tudur) is an English royal dynasty that lasted 118 years, beginning in 1485. Founded by Henry Tudor, Henry was grandson of the Welsh courtier Owen Tudor.Owen Tudor was a nobody before his marrage to the Queen. Without him the Tudor dynasty would have never started!"
- I have reverted the Owen Tudor was a nobody before his marrage to the Queen. Without him the Tudor dynasty would have never started! part as vandalism. EconomicsGuy (talk) 17:50, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
It is unclear whether Owen Tudor and Katherine of Valois were married, and this point reamins a topic of much debate amongst historians. The article state unambiguously that there were married -despite the fact that there is no clear historical evidence one way or the other. I've amneded the article to reflect this. Indisciplined (talk) 19:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Welsh royal dynasty?
Just because Henry Tudor was of Welsh descent, can we really say that this was a Welsh royal dynasty? There's no precedent for it that I can see. I think perhaps we should change it back to "English royal dynasty" or perhaps, "an English royal dynasty of Welsh origin" as in the Brittanica Online Encyclopedia. Tolkien Geek (talk) 04:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- I am not aware of any reputable source that treats the Tudors as a Welsh royal dynasty. Even the descriptor "of Welsh orgin" is deceptive because it might infer a connection to the Welsh royal house. N.B., Owen Tudor was Welsh, and high-born, but he was not royal; and his direct line to Henry Tudor was via a marriage that was not legally recognized at the time, if ever.[--Jbeans (talk) 06:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)]
- No I don't believe so. Their direct male-line ancestors did belong to the Welsh nobility and appear to have been notable warlords, but theirs was not a royal house of early historical times. However, this does not exclude prehistoric royal ancestors, who are likely given what we know of Celtic society and see also in early medieval Ireland. A surviving Tudor family would today today be classed as Immemorial nobility in any case. Later they did marry a daughter of the royal family of Deheubarth, the House of Dinefwr, which indicates they were powerful. Later still the Tudors believed themselves descendants of King Arthur somehow but I have never seen this imaginitive pedigree. DinDraithou (talk) 18:37, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Revisions Needed: Mary I and Wyatt's rebellion
The section on Mary I: A Troubled queen's reign doesn't square with the standalone articles about Mary I or Wyatt's rebellion. In the latter, Mary was supposed to have assented to the execution of Lady Jane Grey only after Wyatt's rebellion, which itself was precipitated in part by a desire by some factions to restore a Protestant to the throne. In response to Wyatt's rebellion, Mary's advisors pushed her to kill Jane, saying that she was a focal point for Protestant ire. However, in this article, the implication is that Lady Jane was executed prior to Wyatt's rebellion, and in response to the fact that Mary failed to convert Jane. Also, the statment that Jane was executed after the Duke of Suffolk attempted to depose Mary fails to state that that attempt was part of Wyatt's rebellion, of which the Duke of Suffolk was a leader. Indeed, these paragraphs seem to imply that the Duke of Suffolk's attempt to depose Mary came before Wyatt's (they were the same attempt), that Jane was executed because she did not convert (perhaps, but not the primary factor), and that Wyatt's rebellion came after Jane's execution (it did not). Major revisions seem to be needed. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 17:52, 28 January 2010 (UTC)John
This page is dreadfully badly written and incoherent - it smacks of an old fashioned history text book most inexpertly and clumsily summarised by a non-native speaker of English with incomplete comprehension of the text. I have patched a few obvious examples of this - but it patently needs to be rewritten. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 22:36, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Can someone please explain this to me?
"After Henry led troops during the Siege of Boulogne in 1544–an attempt to take French territory for England–he died on 28 January 1547. His will had reinstated his daughters by his annulled marriages to Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn to the line of succession, but did not legitimize them. (Because his marriages had been annulled, they legally never occurred, so his children by those marriages were illegitimate.) In the event that all 3 of his children died without heir, the will stipulated that the descendant of his younger sister Mary would take precedence over the descendants of his elder sister, Margaret, Queen of Scotland. Edward, his nine-year old son by Jane Seymour, succeeded as Edward VI of England."
Some of the words were misspelled and I'm not sure I understand the whole reinstatement to the line of succession but that did not legitimize them. So Mary was really illegitimate, but they gave more grief to Elizabeth? Also, after this was made didn't they have the right to call themselves Princess again?? On Elizabeth's wiki page they have her being called Lady Elizabeth up until she became Queen. They don't mention it on Mary's page as far as I can see, but they do call her the Lady Mary Tudor in the box at the bottom of Elizabeth's page where the predecessor entry for the heir is. Where did this information come from? There is NO source for this whole paragraph.
Lady Meg (talk) 22:02, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Who was and wasn't "legitimate" was of course very confused by this time. Strictly, and from the Catholic viewpoint, Henry's marriage to Catherine of Aragon was of course never annulled - so that the marriage to Anne Boleyn was never legal, and Elizabeth was illegitimate from birth. From Henry's own point of view (a not inconsiderable one, since he was after all the King) and, by his order, the Church of England (in his lifetime not actually Protestant as yet) the marriage to Catherine of Aragon was never legal - (she was, technically at least, his brother Prince Arthur's widow and hence his sister-in-law - he had only been able to marry her in the first place by special papal dispensation). Henry's own final position seems basically to have been that all three of his children born to one of his queens (he had other children who were definitely illegitimate) should take their normal precedence so far as succession to the throne was concerned - regardless of their technical legitimacy. This contempt for any inconvenient legal nitpicking was of course typical of Henry. It's no wonder there as a fair bit of huffing and puffing over it all after his death however! I agree the article is not well written, or adequately referenced - there are of course many books on the period, several of which are scholarly enough to make good sources. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:20, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Move to House of Tudor
'Fall' of the House of Lancaster
I've deleted a sentence that read, 'when the House of Lancaster fell from power the Tudors followed'. Followed by falling, or followed into power? The Tudor taking of power followed not the 'fall' of Lancaster but the death of Richard of York, and their own 'fall' didn't happen till much later. If this refers to something prior to H.VII it needs fuller explanation.
New article: The Tudors of Penmynydd
I've started to create a new article on this important family from Penmynydd, North Wales - the male linage of Henry VII: Tudors of Penmynydd as it is practically ignored in this article. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 06:22, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
File:Book of common prayer 1549.jpg Nominated for Deletion
|An image used in this article, File:Book of common prayer 1549.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests February 2012
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Book of common prayer 1549.jpg)
File:Tudor war ship.JPG Nominated for Deletion
|An image used in this article, File:Tudor war ship.JPG, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests March 2012
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Tudor war ship.JPG)
Tewdwr vs. Tudur
I couldn't find in any article so far a proper explanation what the Welsh words "Tewdwr / Tudur" actually mean. An explanation is also missing why the Welsh spelling switches between "Tewdwr" and "Tudur", given the two variants are pronounced in Welsh quite differently.
Wiktionary (Tudor) explains the name "Tewdwr" as the Welsh form of the given name "Theodore", whereas this article states that "Tewdur or Tudor is derived from the words tud "territory" and rhi "king".
Which explanation is the correct one?
I personally favour the explanation provided by Wiktionary, since the patronymic name "ap Tudur" i.e. "son of Theodore" implies that Tudur is a given name. However, this doesn't explain why "Tewdwr / Tudur" was anglicised as Tudor instead of Theodore. Can someone explain this, please?--Td222 (talk) 19:57, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
- I have to say, the "tud" and "rhi" ("land" and "king") theory strikes me as plain silly, as the name came into the family as the Christian name of Tudur Hen, from whom it was ultimately adopted as an English-style surname by Owen Tudor. "Tewdwr", or Tudor, however spelt, is plainly a personal name, not a territorial one. It's hard to find a reliable source for any derivation, and in a sense one is not really needed, as by now it could be little more than speculation. However, the "Theodore" theory is supported by Elizabeth Caldwell Hirschman and Donald N. Yates in 'Enter the Tudors 1450–1550', chapter 10 of The Early Jews and Muslims of England and Wales (McFarland, North Carolina, 2014); and Samuel Rudder's A New History of Gloucestershire (1986) at p. 93 says "Rhees ap Tudor, or Theodore". If no one objects here, we could perhaps add the "Theodore" explanation with those sources. You ask why "Tewdwr/Tudur" was anglicized as Tudor instead of Theodore? In adopting the "Theodore" theory, Hirschman and Yates note that a man named Tudor Walensis appears in the Domesday Book, and also that there were equivalents of "Theodore" in several languages (Thierry in French, Dietrich in German, Theodoric and Theodore in English, and so forth). So the name which Owen Tudor decided to use as a surname had been around for some time in a Welsh or Anglo-Welsh form. No doubt it would have been rather odd to reinvent it in a non-Welsh form, especially when the English form was rather different. Moonraker (talk) 22:37, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think Hirschman and Yates are reliable sources at all judging from what I've seen from their ridiculous When Scotland Was Jewish: DNA Evidence, Archeology, Analysis of Migrations, and Public and Family Records Show Twelfth Century Semitic Roots on GoogleBooks. Anyway, we're talking about a word's origin, but the second source you quoted is just a raw example of the Welsh name being Anglicized "Theodore". Also, I think it's wrong to assume that, since a name is derived from a word element meaning "land" it thus negated from being a personal name.
- Here's a quote from an article on the Tudors by Geraint H. Jenkins:
The name Tudor, Modern Welsh Tudur, is of Celtic derivation. It is attested in the spelling Tutir as the name of the witness to charter 143 of the Book of Llandaf, a charter whose original dated to c. AD 660. This compound name Touto~rīx is in fact attested, as a divine name, in Gaulish (see TEUTATES; D. Ellis Evans, BBCS 24.420) and is made up of elements signifying 'tribe' and 'king' (see KINGSHIP); cf. Old Irish TUATH and rí.
- Here's a relevant blurb from Dictionary of American Family Names published by Oxford University Press:
Welsh: from the personal name Tudur, which is of ancient Celtic origin and unexplained etymology. It has sometimes been erroneously taken as a Welsh equivalent of Latin Theodorus, Greek Theodōros (see Theodore), for which the usual Welsh form is Tewdwr.
- Here's all I can see from a snippet on GoogleBooks from a book by Bart Jaski:
... rhi, Gaulish rix and Latin rex, and túath with Welsh and Breton tud, Gothic thiuda, Anglo-Saxon theod and Italic tota. Both form elements in personal names such as Welsh Tudur, Gaulish Toutiorix and German Theoderic. Although a phonetic correspondence does not imply a semantic correspondence, the basic meaning of ri and túath and their close are fairly obvious.—Jaski, B (2000). Early Irish Kingship and Succession. Dublin: Four Courts Press. p. 38.
- Here's some bits from a article by Edgar C. Polomé and J.P. Mallory:
*teutéha- 'the people (?under arms)'. IEW 1084-1085 (*teuta); Wat 71 (*teuta-); GI 652 (*theu-th-); Buck19.22]. OIr tūath 'a people, nation; (common) people as opposed to king or clergy', Wels tud 'country'. .... In early Ireland, the tuath is inextricably associated with the concept of the 'king' (niba tūath ... cen rīg 'a tūath is not a tūath without a king') and this concept may extend back at least into Proto-Celtic, cf. Wels Tudur (< *Teuto-rīks 'teuto-king'), Gaul Toutio-rix "Tribal"-king.
Here's the blurb on the name Tudur by Patrick Hanks and Flavia Hodges:
Welsh: traditional name derived from the Old Celtic form Teutorix, composed of elements meaning 'people, tribe' + 'ruler, king'. The name has been widely believed to be a Welsh form of THEODORE, but there is in fact no connection between the two names. Variants: Tudyr (an earlier spelling); Tudor (an Anglicized spelling).
- Anyway, it seems to me that reliable sources regard the name Tudur as unrelated to Theodore, a name derived from Latin and Greek (from Greek theos 'god' and dōron 'gift'). Apparently Theodore is represented in Welsh as Tewdwr. Tudur, on the other hand, is somewhat similar in origin to the German Theodric (that doesn't mean it's derived from Theodric though).--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 00:33, 21 October 2014 (UTC)