Talk:TurboGrafx-16

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Availability and discontinued dates[edit]

Where do these dates come from? I'm not too familiar with the North American market, but the PC Engine was imported in France from 1988 to early 1995. In Japan, the console was still officially retailed well beyond December 1994, and games released until late 1996 -- the last Hudson game was Seiya Monogatari in December 1995. Somehow I seriously doubt the TurboGrafx market lasted longer than the PC Engine one. Kaminari (talk) 00:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

PC Engine grey imports in Central Europe[edit]

The first paragraph isn't quite correct. Living in Europe, I met someone that had a PC-Engine, also some videogame shops in Germany advertised their grey-imports of PC-Engines in computer/videogame-magazines. So it's wrong to write that only the Turbografx model was imported here. 83.77.205.247 (talk) 11:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. I have partly corrected this false information by expanding the role of Sodipeng in Western Europe, but the whole article needs a serious overhaul. Right now, the PC Engine / TurboGrafx snafu is a total mess. Kaminari (talk) 11:48, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Turbo Duo[edit]

I'm making a quick adjustment in the Turbo Duo section. There was no "official" pack in HuCard game for the Duo. NEC changed the promotion several times, at one point it was Dungeon Explorer, at another time it was Ninja Spirit. A number of games were offered as a pack-in as well as after a time a random pack in. Another note that is unecessary is the note about the TurboExpress and having dead pixels. TurboZoneDirect can confirm this as can many consumers who own their portables with dead pixels. Simply put it's a real problem and I'm not sure who edited that but the disclaimer is absolutely unecessary.

Hucard size[edit]

they were not the size of a credit card, they were smaller. Making a change. Jafafa Hots 08:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Ouch, I wish I caught this sooner. Actually, HuCards are indeed the same size as a credit-card, except they are THICKER. Please verify before editing :) Esteban666 00:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I have a turbografx, I have dozens of hucards, and I have several credit cards, and the hucards are smaller than the credit cards. Is that enough verification? Jafafa Hots 07:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, I just put a credit card and a HuCard in a stack, and I was right. A HuCard is one 32nd inch narrower. Doh! OK, they're essentially the same. For some reason the white edges of the HuCard made me think they were narrower. I'm a dumbass!!! Sorry. Jafafa Hots 04:30, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The HuCard dimensions are 85mm x 54mm x 2mm, compared to credit card dimensions of approximately 0.75mm in thickness and between 85 and 86mm in length. The widths appear to be exactly the same. Xenowing 05:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Page in need of an overhaul?[edit]

Hi folks. Anyone interested in fixing up this page (perhaps structuring it differently)? It has improved over the years, somewhat, but I always felt like these were bandaids slapped onto a weak foundation. I am not even happy with my edits -- I think we can do a lot better :)

Nintendo Wii virtual console[edit]

I don't see very much towards the Nintendo Revolution virtual console. I think we'll see alot more visitors to the page now that it has benn confirmed for the VC. (After all, it's what brought me hear ;) )

As I'm, clumsy and new to the wiki, I don't think I can or will do it. ;

Thanks,

ComKeen 23:46, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

merger[edit]

No other console entry on wikipedia combines the Japanese name and the American one into the same article. I'm removing the merger request. 68.229.165.237 03:47, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Um yes it does Sega Genesis/Sega Megadrive. Please do not remove requests before consensus has been made -- larsinio (poke)(prod) 23:50, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I merged the articles. It's a bit sloppy, but it was the only logical choice. Famicom and NES are the same article, Mega Drive and Genesis are also in the article, and Super Nintendo and Super Famicom as well. –KAMiKAZOW 17:14, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

The reason "Mega Drive" is in the name of the Genesis/Mega Drive article isn't because it's the Japanese name. It's because it's the name used in English-speaking countries outside North America. If Famicom and Super Famicom were used in PAL/SECAM territories for what are known outside Japan as the NES and SNES, then those articles would probably have those names in the title as well. --Evice 05:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, now for the million dollar question, why didn't the TurboDuo and SuperGrafx pages get merged into this one as well? BcRIPster 07:26, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

8-bit , 16-bit or hybrid?[edit]

HARDWARE: Not to be overly technical, but is it accurate to label the PCE / TG-16 hardware as fundamentally 8-bit, as the intro states? I don't know the answer, that is why I am asking. Is the answer clear-cut? Or is there some debate, technically, on how to classify hybrid hardware like this? I know that the PCE / TG-16 is *not* a true 16-bit, but it seems to exist somewhere on the continuum between "proper" 8- and 16- bit systems (NES <-> SNES, SMS <-> Genesis).

GENERATION: Again, this isn't clear cut for me. Clearly, in North America, the TG-16 is associated with the 16-bit generation, since it launched at the same time as Sega's Genesis and both companies marketed their consoles as "the next era" in video games.


However, when we look at the larger picture and include the PCE and Japan, the PCE is clearly associated with the 8-bit generation (being a contemporary of Nintendo's and Sega's 8-bit consoles in Japan).

if you are looking at japan's console launches then you will see that everything is launched earlier, and therefore in that territory there was still ages between the launch of 8-bit consoles such as the nes and the pc engine as the nes was also launched years earlier there


Therefore, I submit that the PCE spans both the 8-bit and 16-bit generations.

RECOMMENDATIONS: Now that the PCE and TG-16 entries at wikipedia have merged, we have a big headache to deal with. Each console has a distinct history and we really can't generalize about them. All future edits and revisions should keep this in mind -- lest we confuse folks! Clearly state whether you are discussing / referring to PCE, TG-16 or both.

Thanks Esteban666 00:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


My follow up:

The PC-Engine is an 8-bit system in every sense (8-bit CPU with 8-bit data bus). It's video chips have a selectable 8-bit/16-bit interface which is used in 8-bit mode, not that it matters: We could argue semantics about the video chips working in units of 16 bits, but for that matter so does the Sega Master System and plenty of other consoles which are decidedly 8-bit. If that was how we measured bitness of a console, the Genesis has hybrid 16-bit/256-bit video (!) but is well known as a 16-bit system based on it's CPU specfications.

The misunderstanding about it being 16-bit can be blamed on the "TurboGrafx-16" name. That was marketing spin, it is not a 16-bit system. (likewise, the SNK Neo Geo wasn't 24-bit though marketing decided it's 16-bit + 8-bit CPUs made it 24-bit)


REPLY: Excellent, thanks for clearing that up. OK, so if you are correct, then TG-16 / PCE can be definitively categorized as 8-bit hardware. However, as far as the "Generation" is concerned, TG-16 and PCE span both 8-bit and 16-bit eras and are considered the comtemporaries of Famicom, MegaDrive and SuperFamicom (in Japan) and contemporaries of Genesis, SNES (in North America). Esteban666 20:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

There's no doubt here, the TurboGrafx-16 *was* an 8-bit console. From what I recall it used a custom variation of venerable 6502 CPU, the same one found in consoles like the original Nintendo or the Apple II. That fact that it had a 16-bit video capabilities or that NEC's American division tried to (deceptively) market it as "16-bit" are completely irrelevant. Also keep in mind there was the 65C816 CPU (16-bit version of the 6502) that the Super Nintendo and Apple IIGS used but NEC choose to stick with the their custom 8-bit 6502 for some reason.
My first memories of the TurboGrafx-16 (here in Canada) were back in the summer of 1989. The Nintendo was the defacto standard in gaming consoles at the time and I can remember being blown away looking at screen shots of the TG16 games in magazines, and being equally impressed seeing demo units on display in stores like Radio Shack. This was during the 8-bit area of course, so it REALLY caught my attention. Weeks/months later suddenly the Sega Genesis appeared on the market though, not only ushering in the 16-bit era, but completely overshading the TG16 to the point I and most everyone else almost forgot it existed...it just quickly faded out. Nonetheless, it was introduced during (or just slightly before) the 16-bit era in North America, so that's the generation it belongs under. The PC Engine from Japan is a little more tricky to classify. From a personal observation, I've always seen it fitting the gap between the Nintendo and Genesis...sort of a hybrid of the two. Probably would've done much better if it had been released in North American in 1986-87.--Apple2gs (talk) 19:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's the facts. The system was marketed as a 16-bit system in the U.S. by name if nothing else. It is not a pure 8-bit system, it is a hybrid. I can't speak for the late 80's Japanese gaming press, and unless we get a native speaker who was also had first hand experience with the early PCE marketing efforts we're basically making guesses. Here are the facts about Japan though; for the products life cycle it's chief competition in the market was the SNES. The MegaDrive was a distant third in the market between those two. Yes it did have overlap with other platforms.

The PCE (87) and MegaDrive (88) are only a year apart by release dates. It's clear by deductive observation that NEC enters the market and releases the PCE as competition to the NES (83) and Master System (86). Sega quickly turns around and and releases the MegaDrive and starts their 16-bit branding to present themselves as the next generation (companies weren't even using this distinction until the MegaDrive (88/89)!!!) When both go to bring their new platforms to the US, "x-bit" is now established as a branding distinction so both companies in 89 launch in N.A. with NEC adopting it to be competitive with Sega, via "Well they just have it written on their console. Let's put it in the name of our console so it has higher visibility". No I didn't hear anyone say this but that is standard marketing logic that I can only presume guided the naming decision.

Just because NEC didn't invent a branding strategy at product launch that didn't even exist until a year later doesn't mean that the initial PCE is open for exclusion as 16-bit. The PCE/TG not only has a 16-bit chip it it, it's games also featured the hallmarks of 16-bit gaming (eg, larger sprites, larger color palette, etc...). AND for six of the of the eight official years of the PCE/TG products life cycle it is referred to as a 16-bit gaming system (FOR WHATEVER REASON). This is silly. It's this type of arguing on this site that makes me insane sometimes.BcRIPster (talk) 17:31, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

BcRIPster got it mostly right. The main issues with his response is that he forgets that Master System was released in '87 (not '86) in Japan, but, regardless it was NOT new hardware. Master System was basically a re-released and redesigned Sega Mark III, which had been released in '85 in Japan. PC Engine also was not released to "compete" with NES, but to SURPASS it completely. And THAT is the tell-tale sign of a next gen console. Now, one may argue that Mark III/Master System also surpassed NES in a technological sense, but it wasn't a leap. It didn't present a progression of "bringing arcade calibur graphics home" in the manner PC Engine did.
In essence, NEC wanted to leap ahead of both Nintendo (and to a much lesser extent Sega, and to an even lesser extent, Atari's 7800). They wanted to bring to market a next gen console. They did so, and Sega responded, followed by Nintendo. Aside from the timetable, we also have the technical aspects, as pointed out before. Did you know PC Engine/TG-16 has better color capabilities than Mega Drive/Genesis? It's true. Did you know that Sega CD was Sega of Japan's response to PC Engine CD? It's true. PC Engine didn't compete with NES in the same way XBox 360 didn't compete with PlayStation 2. Yes, the older systems may have still been on market when the next gen launced, but that doesn't mean the new systems were in direct competition with the old, or in the same gen. It just means that the new gen was launched on the tail end of the old, and that's what always happens. PC Engine is part of the Mega Drive, SNES gen. Therealspiffyone (talk) 04:47, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

PAL Turbografx[edit]

According to this Hudson Soft forum thread, a PAL Turbographx was never officially released, but was rather, a grey market item. This information appears to have come from John Greiner, president of Hudson Soft. A Hudson employee has posted Greiner's response to the question about half way down the page

"Because I love you guys, I went and pestered Mr. Greiner for you this morning! The Turbo Grafx was never officially released in Europe. It was however, given distribution as a "gray market" item through the Guillemot brothers (now owners of Ubisoft). The sold around 50,000 units and it made them a lot of money. They basically took the PC Engine and put PAL conversion units onto them and enabled them to play US games.

As stated, the Turbo Grafx was a gray market item, therefore there was no advertising, official Hudson marketing, or other aspects involved in the process - though we gave Guillemot a lot of support. NEC handled the distribution of games in Europe which were basically the American titles you all know and love. The system could be found on store shelves throughout Europe and received a lot of press coverage as well from the various magazines there."

Here is the thread http://hudsonent.com/viewtopic.php?t=44&sid=f236051d12b1668bbdf7f5cf64646054 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Andrew WD (talkcontribs) .

Please keep in mind that PAL territories and Europe do not coincide. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Palpalpalpal (talkcontribs) .
I've been told that a PAL TurboGrafx was available in Hong Kong, but the article currently says that it was released in Europe and the UK, which would appear to be false from that link. Tim (Xevious) 11:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, there is apparently a company named "Raven Games" that will convert these PAL units (as well as NTSC units) to SCART. I only became aware of them when I found one of their Duo conversions for sale on e-bay. BcRIPster 16:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Raven Games did supply them in the UK, But I think they're actually refering to a store that used to advertise in magazines as PC Engine Supplies (later renamed PC Engine Direct) There was also plans to officially release the system in the UK as NEC put several adverts in Computer and Video Games Magazine and Mean Machines warning people not to buy "grey imports" as they wouldn't work with the officially released games nor would they come under their warranty. But i've never heard it called The Turbo Graphx here (bar the Wii's VC name), it's always been called the PC Engine. (Infact when Bonk was released on the Amiga and Atari ST, he was balled BC Kid, after the Japanese name PC Kid.) --Guru Larry 23:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually, in hindsight, i think they might be refering to Telegames, as I bought a very odd looking Turbografx off them a few years ago, completly forgot about it. --Guru Larry 06:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Limitations in the 16-bit Era[edit]

This area of the article was a bit of a mess. I'm basically done doing a major rewrite of this section (recycling some useful parts of the old section). I've tried to eliminate much of the subjectivity and inaccurate information and all the grammar/spelling errors that I could find. The section is a bit larger now, but I believe it to be for the better. Hopefully we're a little closer to getting the nasty Wiki-tags off the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fragmare (talkcontribs) 00:42, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

The "Struggles in North America" segment[edit]

It's like reading from the worst of EGM. The history information is completely wrong on the hows and why's behind software distribution in the U.S. I've been strugling with this re-write for almost 30 minutes now and I'm about to just trash the whole segment and go from scratch. To start with ...the situation as of October of 1993 as I tried to explain to members of the Turbo-List mailing list...

Here is the chain of events that would get a game released by TTI in the U.S.... unless TTI directly negotiated a deal with a Third party developer such as Working Designs.

For a Japanese release to come over to the U.S., Hudson would aquire the rights to it for use on the PC-Engine. At this point if TTI (U.S.) wanted to get this game, they would first have to purchase the rights from Hudson Japan, then do a conversion on the title themselves in the U.S. (localization, etc...).

This literally created a situation where if a game came out in the U.S. first, without a direct partnership agreement with TTI (say, a game on another platform), and TTI wanted to release it. Hudson Japan would have to aquire the rights for the Japanese release and convert it to Japanese. Then TTI would buy the rights from Hudson and convert it back to English. I am not kidding about this! They can not skip this step and port the English version directly. This was pretty much the same process prior to the change over to TTI, only in the earlier case Hudson U.S. had to buy the title from Hudson Japan before they could do the conversion.

Therefore as you can guess, it cost a chunk of cash for games to be brought into U.S. Towards the end it was an even slower process since they had hardly any staff to do localization and conversions. This explains why you never saw all that many japanese conversions to begin with, and rarely any top-tier games.

Seriously! This was confirmed to me by various contacts I had within TTI, Hudson U.S. and Hudson Japan whom I would talk to during that time period. It was so insane I kept tracking down other people and asking them if this was true. It still boggles the mind.

Towards the end, 3DO swiped TTI's head of P.R. in the U.S. (although she quickly left 3DO for Sega), and Sega eventually hired some of their remaining U.S. programming staff away to work on Saturn development. BcRIPster 07:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Is there any ideas out there on how to go about integrating this data? BcRIPster 07:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
1. Well, assuming your info is accurate (and I have no reason to doubt it, plus we can try to corroborate it with the folks at Hudson), it certainly warrants inclusion in the article. I think it would be a great addition since the process was / is not common knowledge. I'll try to add your info soon, though I must admit I'm still confused by the process you described. Any clarification would be helpful. Thanks.
2. Although I think this article is a mess, I didn't see any glaring errors in the "Struggles" section. Could you explain the errors you see? I'd be willing to fix the problems. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Esteban666 (talkcontribs) 08:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC).Esteban666 08:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
  1. 2 first... In hindesite the general information is ok, I hit this page at the tail end of reading a lot of bad content on the site, and was more overwealmed than anything on how to address the page. I'm sorry for being so abrupt and I've struck my initial comment from what I first wrote. In response to #1, while I have lots of names of people I would speak with at these companies, I would have no idea how to contact any of them now. Most of them, I know, left the industry at one point or another. The guy running what's left of TTI (his name is eluding me at the moment) might be able to coraberate some of this though. I think there is a good bit of work to still go on this page as a whole, but it's a good start. BcRIPster 11:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
No need to apologize. Also, you personally don't have to verify stuff, since we can ask former NEC/TTi personnel. If we are lucky, the moderators at the Hudson forum will ask the president about this and we'll get a definitive answer (I was the one who asked them about the PAL TurboGrafx, and they were kind enough to answer it). Steve at TTi would also be a good resource, as you said. I haven't been to the Hudson forums for a long time, but I'll post a question about this. Cross your fingers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Esteban666 (talkcontribs) 02:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC).Esteban666 02:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
It's not really a case of verification, this how Terri Tang (I'll have to confirm that spelling) and others at the company explained it to me when I was inquiring on behalf of our magazine. But it would be interesting to hear what you're told now. BcRIPster 04:42, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Requested move 2012[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --Jtalledo (talk) 15:22, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

TurboGrafx-16PC Engine — PC Engine is the more recognized term for the platform internationally, and the more sucessful product line of the two. TurboGrafx-16 should redirect to PC Engine. Effectively swap how it is now. BcRIPster 20:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move[edit]

  1. Strong Support: PC Engine is the name it first went by and the one I and many knew the console by. It amuses me that you can download "TurboGrafx" games from Nintendo's Virtual Console in europe yet I keep seeing everyone refer to them as PC Engine games. Even the UK Nintendo site feel inclined to add "PC Engine" in brackets everytime they mention the TurboGrafx. Dave anime 20:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
  2. Strong Support: The PC Engine has a whole different catalogue of games (only 51 CD games were ever released in the USA compared to 400+ for the PC Engine), equipment (Arcade Card Duo/Pro, let alone other devices such as an additional mouse, MB128/Tennokoe Bank, the different iterations of the PC Engine Duo [R, RX]). The difference in the scope of history and equipment would even motivate separate articles for both machines as far as I see it. Right now this is a very bloated article. Hong-baba 18:59, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
  3. Strong Support: There is this very common misconception from US people that the PC Engine was known in the rest of the world as TurboGrafx. That is entirely unfounded. Most if not all European countries were importing the Japanese PC Engine system and its library. In France, where the import market was very strong (I was an actor of this market), we never heard of the name TurboGrafx until 1994 (by then, the system was incidentally already dead in North America). The US TurboGrafx was only known as such in the UK because it was occasionally imported there as a modified PAL 50 Hz system, but even the Brits were mostly playing on the PC Engine. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, the US market was very much a closed and confidential one. Either the article should be in all fairness renamed in favor of the PC Engine, or the two systems should be treated as separate machines. But there's absolutely no way the TurboGrafx can be considered as the international name of the PC Engine (which is an English name, btw). This would be complete misinformation. And as Hong-Baba said, their catalogues are entirely different (and the cartridges are incompatible). This case is pretty much similar to the Mega Drive vs. Genesis. Wikipedia lists the Sega 16-bit system by its Japanese/European name, not by its US one. Right now, this article is very biased in my opinion. Kaminari 00:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
  4. Strong Support: If a product is relaeased under different names in different countries under different names, it should be listed under its original name, even if this is not even the most popular name. I think of (the English) Wikipedia more of a "international" reference base (I'm German, but I rarely contribute to the German Wiki), so it should be as unbiased as possible. With this in mind, using the "first" name would be the only unbiased choice. For this, I suppose even the SNES ahould direct to Super Famicom and not vice versa. Dukat74 18:04, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move[edit]

  1. Strong Oppose: I think That Console Machines Should Be Kept By itself. Should Not Be Merged. You don't see the Gameboy Color getting merged to Gameboy.72.144.20.10 02:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)Pendo 4
    You do understand that the TG-16 and PCE are the same machine just different region. Your example is flawed. I'm talking about renaming the page. It was already merged anyways some time ago.BcRIPster 08:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
    Don't change the name then. I knew this machine by "TURBOGRAPIX" for the name.Pendo 4 20:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)Pendo 4
    I have no intention of frustrating folks, but in North America everyone knew of this console as TurboGrafx-16, first and foremost. Neither the introduction of the TurboDUO (DUO) nor the recent renewed interest in "retro" Japanese consoles has changed this fact. All of NEC's North American video game products, for better or for worse, fall under the umbrella of the "TurboGrafx-16" moniker. PC Engine? That's the Japanese version of the TurboGrafx-16, right? TurboExpress? That's the portable TurboGrafx-16, isn't it? TurboGrafx-CD? That's TurboGrafx-16's CD-ROM, right? TurboDuo? That's the TurboGrafx-16 combined with a CD-ROM, isn't it?
    The fact that Wii's Virtual Console refers to the console as "TurboGrafx-16" is further evidence that an overwhelming majority of English-speaking gamers associate the moniker with the console and will continue to do so. Name-recognition is the prominent issue here, and books (documenting the history of consoles) and gaming magazines (past and present) still refer to the system as TurboGrafx-16, even when they reference its Japanese counterpart.
    Furthermore, despite the robust PC Engine import scenes in North America, France (and other countries, I'm sure), there is no evidence that the English-speaking PC Engine user base was large enough -- or influential enough -- to challenge the name-recognition of TurboGrafx-16.
    Consider this: Famicom was incredibly popular, but an overwhelming majority of English-speaking gamers recognize the console, first and foremost, by its North American name, "NES." Esteban666 02:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
  2. Strong Oppose The system was only called PC Engine in Japan. It was called TurbroGrafx-16 in North America and Turbografx in Europe (it never got released in Australia). The majority of English speakers would reckonize it as TurboGrafx-16 rather than PC Engine. TJ Spyke 03:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  3. Oppose It was only known as PC Engine in one region. Lrrr IV 10:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
  4. Strong Oppose I think that the title of the article should be TurboGrafx-16/PC Engine. Mentioning the Japanese name "PC Engine" in the first sentence of the article is pretty strong, but I don't see why it can't be included in the title. I don't think that "TurboGrafx-16" should be removed from the title, as I believe most English speaking gamers are much more familiar with the "TurboGrafx" name than the "PC-Engine" or "HE System" names. Rag-time4 14:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. Oppose The English language Wikipedia should use the English language name for the system. Notice that Super Famicom is a redirect to Super Nintendo Entertainment System. Xastic 13:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Add any additional comments:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

External links[edit]

Let's check this disaster: First of all, external links description should be four or five words, not a full paragraph. I am cutting them all to the minimum.

  • nfg.2y.net/games/pce/: 21,035
  • necstasy.emunova.net: 88,311 (Dead site)
  • www.vg-network.com: 215,926
  • uk.playright.dk: Alexa ranking 407,588
  • www.pcenginefx.com: 803,502
  • magicengine.com: 837,655 (Emulator)
  • zeograd.com: 1,416,388 (Dead site)
  • www.planet-pcengine.de: 2,394,219 (German)
  • turbo2k.net: 3,093,086
  • pcecp.com: 6,940,152
  • www.vgden.com: 7,820,591 (New site, 4 articles, otherwise empty)
  • www.TurboGrafx-16.com: No Alexa ranking
  • www.pcengine.co.uk: No Alexa Ranking (Dead site)
  • www.pcengine.de: No Alexa Ranking (Dead site)

So, the first step was deleting all the duplicate links, we don't need to post five or six external links to the same site. Then reduced the description of every external link. Now, I am also removing the dead sites, and the ones that are not in English (this is an English article about a Japanese artifact, we don't need links to German or any other language here, existing links in Japanese and English). Finally, I remove the ones that don't have Alexa ranking, you would have gotten at least some ranking if you had been following the Turbo Grafx earlier. Finally, I also remove the emulator link, because this article is focused in the console, not in emulators of the console. Oh, and don't forget vgden.com, it is a really new site, we need long standing ones, not sites created some months ago.

Now we can discuss the others. The lower the Alexa ranking, the more visited the site is. The first two ones "inherit" their Alexa ranking from their hosts, so we will leave them to the last. As for the others, I would prefer linking to sites that are fully focused in the console, and not sites that have a single section about them. -- ReyBrujo 04:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm the webmaster of vgden.com and I am sad to see that my site was crossed off the list of external links. I created the site in 2003 and upgraded in to VGDen in 2005. Then I have tons of TurboGrafx/PC-Engine games reviewed there, and many of them are not reviewed anywhere else on the web. I understand your decision, but what would I need to do to bring VGDen to the standard needed to appear in the external link section ? --Lkermel 17:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like to also add that what you call 'otherwise empty' represents 260 PC Engine game reviews, around 2000 screenshots, a dozen of exclusive Pirate Hucard reviews and several rare official game soundtracks. And what you call 'some months ago' was in fact 4 years ago. So I'm asking the people here, VGDen is a lot of work and offers reviews and information found nowhere else on the web. And I would like to share all this work with all the PC Engine/TurboGrafx16 players in the world. If you all think that VGDen shouldn't be added in the 'external links' because it doesn't offer anything relevant to the PC Engine/Turbografx16 Wikipedia page, then I'll remove it. But I would like to hear this from more than one person, and ReyBrujo I'm not attacking you in anyway, I just want to also discuss this issue with all the people maintaining this page.--Lkermel 18:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
While the Alexa ranking scheme works in some instances, it is definitely not applicable to a niche vintage gaming console scene like we have here with the PC Engine. VGDen seems very informative to me - much like Universo PC Engine (http://www.pcengine.com.br/) which similarly deserves a mention but goes unmentioned as is. Hong-baba 18:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Polygonal 3D graphics and Arcade Card[edit]

The article says that the PC Engine system, thanks to the Arcade Card, could display '3D polygon graphics'. What games do you have in mind ? The graphics displayed in games such as Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire are pre-rendered sprites, as far as I know, and not real-time 3D graphics. The only real-time 3D graphics displayed by the PC Engine (that I know of) seems to be the vector graphic introdution of Space Invaders... --Lkermel 19:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Airzonk flyer.png[edit]

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Fair use rationale for Image:Sgx ghoulsghosts.gif[edit]

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PC in PC-Engine[edit]

What does the "PC" actually mean? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.139.61.151 (talkcontribs).

It either means PonyCanyon or Personal Computer; I've heard PonyCanyon was involved in the development. Probably wrong though. 66.193.64.161 14:48, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Console Size Differences[edit]

There was a rumor that the US console size was doubled due to the perception in the western market that a larger console contained more technology and thus was valued more. The Japanese unit is a perfect square where as the US unit is double in width and almost 1.5 units in depth. It is also possible that by creating a larger unit for the western market, the components could be more spread out and more cost effective for production. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.92.141.114 (talk) 14:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I would hardly call this rumor. If nothing else anecdotal experience indicates that the Japanese have a tendency to make things smaller, and in the US, historically "Bigger is Better" is a frequent marketing strategy. But beyond that, NEC/Hudson made no mystery about this at early trade shows. The concern was if they released the smaller unit in the US, consumers would mistake it as a toy and not treat it seriously.BcRIPster (talk) 11:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

This page is so hard to work on...[edit]

There is so much attitude on this page of "the system failed", "the system's limitations", etc... It's like a Sega fanboy wrote it. The reality is the system wasn't a failure by any stretch of the imagination internationally, and the U.S. failures were more driven by corporate marketing decisions than anything else (weak library compared to Asia and no advertising).BcRIPster (talk) 11:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the article needs more references to help differentiate fact from point of view. --Silver Edge (talk) 20:55, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Sgx ghoulsghosts.gif[edit]

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

first 16-bit console[edit]

Just a slight nitpick but the first 16-bit console was the Intellivision (CPU was a 894.886 kHz CP1610) not the Genesis/Megadrive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.140.0.53 (talk) 04:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

That is correct, perhaps the Intellivision should be reclassed as a Fourth Generation games console. A investgation is needed. mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 18:15, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Apparently the Intellivision is'nt a 16 bit games console! mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
The console as a whole is not 16-bit, but it did have a 16-bit processor. There was a similar argument about the Mega CD being 32-bit because its processor was capable of executing 32-bit code, even though the rest of the system was entirely 16-bit. In any event, the PC Engine was the first "true" 16-bit console, in that the majority of its hardware (not just the CPU) is 16-bit. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
The TG16 had a 16-bit processor? I've always been of the understanding its core CPU was simply a slightly modified 65C02, meaning it still had an 8-bit data bus. This is very different from, say, the 65C816 used in the Super Nintendo and Apple IIGS, which had a 16-bit data bus. In essence, the HuC6280A at its core is the same 6502 used in the original 1985 Nintendo. Granted it could address more memory, had more instruction sets and ran at a higher clock speed, it was still based heavily on the 6502.
For that very reason, I consider the TG16 an 8-bit console, albeit pumped up on steroids. :) --Apple2gs (talk) 18:24, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
TG-16 used a 16-bit graphics processor, though, so the term "16-bit graphics" does, in fact, apply to PC Engine/TG16. Besides which, video game hardware generations are thought of in terms of time of release, reasons for release, comparisons of hardware power (which tie into reasons for release, btw), etc., not CPU power alone (especially as time went on and graphics co-processors and processors took away the focus on CPUs). So, why did NEC release the PC Engine? To compete with NES? No. To completely SURPASS the NES. Why did Sega release the MegaDrive/Genesis? To completely SURPASS the NES...but also to directly compete with the PC Engine (and we can see "proof" of that in the fact that MegaCD/SegaCD was actually a direct response to PC Engine CD). Why did Nintendo release SNES? Because NES was getting long in the tooth, and the technologically superior hardware from NEC (in Japan) and Sega (in NA and especially the EU/PAL markets) was taking away marketshare. Hence SNES released to SURPASS their own NES (as successor consoles, next gen consoles, are meant to surpass their direct predecessors) and compete directly with MegaDrive/Genesis in NA and EU/PAL and PC Engine in Japan (as MegaDrive, while a success in the western markets, was floundering in Japan, with PC Engine doing the exact opposite - floundering in the West and selling like wildfire in Japan). Besides which, "bits" are inconsequential when discussing video game console generations, and were merely marketing spin, tbqh. Gens are defined more on time and reason for release, and that ties into comparison of tech power to other consoles.Therealspiffyone (talk) 18:39, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
My mistake...it actually used TWO 16-bit graphics processors. So...again, stating that it was a "16-bit GRAPHICS" system isn't untrue. That's part of what separates PC Engine/TG16 from Atari 7800, NES, and SMS and puts it squarely as the first of the same gen that gave us MegaDrive/Genesis and SNES (and, to a lesser extent, NEO GEO). But, again, more or as important is the time and reason for release.Therealspiffyone (talk) 18:42, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I see what you're saying, but I still disagree. In the 16-bit game console era, the sole thing the average person and general public considered in terms of what made a system 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit was...the CPU. And even in the late 80's computer era, we were fairly specific of what qualified as a 16-bit computer/game-console. The Amiga, Atari ST and Sega Genesis used the 68000, was internally 16-bits and externally 32-bits. These were all classified, and rightly so, as 16-bit machines. The Apple IIGS and Super Nintendo was internally 16-bits, and externally 8-bits, and again, these were classified as 16-bit machines. TurboGrafix's 6502-based CPU was 8-bits internally and 8-bits externally, just like the original Apple II computer or Atari 2600 released in 1977. I understand what you're saying about it have a graphics processor that is true 16-bit, but here's a good example as a comparison:
The Apple II, an 8-bit computer based on the 6502, had an after market plug-in video card with Oak 087 VGA chipset. This graphics processor had a 32-bit internal memory-controller. So if I plug one of these into my 1983 Apple IIe (8-bit computer, with 32-bit graphics processor) can I say it's a 32-bit gaming system? :) ---Apple2gs (talk) 04:20, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Nintendo's anticompetitive practices[edit]

"One reason for this was that many larger software companies such as Konami supported the PC Engine in Japan, but also produced games for Nintendo. Nintendo at the time had engaged in anti-competitive practices that were later ruled illegal (citation needed)" I think that was the one where Nintendo got sued and had to give out $5 coupons off the purchase of an NES game. Might it be in one of the editions of Game Over: How Nintendo Zapped an American Industry, Captured Your Dollars, and Enslaved Your Children? --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 01:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Overuse of "citation needed"[edit]

Good grief, it's like someone just pasted [citation needed] at the end of every other sentence. For instance "NEC also published a handful of newsletters (TurboEdge) and sent them to customers that sent in their TG-16 warranty cards or subscribed to TurboPlay. These newsletters were black and white, mostly text, and four to eight pages in length."

How the hell do you cite something like that. It's not like the NYTimes did an article about how to get your newsletter. The systems came with a mail in warranty card like every friggin' electronics product you buy, and they sent you a newsletter when you did (again, not an unheard of practice with some electronics companies).BcRIPster (talk) 01:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Picture[edit]

The image's copyright is in question, it appears to be an altered version of the image found here: http://www.theoldcomputer.com/Libarary%27s/Emulation/TurboGraphics16/TurboGrafx-16.jpg and poorly altered at that. I urge the community to replace this image with a higher quality version, the distorted image doesn't even accurately represent the device. I'll try to get one myself if I'm able. Mopenstein (talk) 20:45, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

External link to Video Game Den ?[edit]

Several people have asked me why Video Game Den (www.videogameden.com) wasn't listed in the external links for this wikipedia page. Before adding it, I'd like to discuss it here with you first. I have nearly 350 PC Engine game reviewed on my site with scans and information found nowhere else on the web. Do you think I could add it to the list of external links ? Thanks. --Lkermel (talk) 17:34, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

important figure missing[edit]

more important than the 8bit vs 16bit wrestle: max amount of sprites per scanline.

youtube gradius 1 : a shitload of sprites. I was not yet able to see flicker. It is more than 8 per scanline (except there are BOBs of which I do not know).

bitness had never any real meaning

- the "16bit" 68000 in Amiga did without any doubt run a 32bit OS. - the "8bit" C64 had less problems scrolling than the "16bit" Atari ST

max sprites per scanline figure is an important figure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.230.72.187 (talk) 03:49, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

This makes no sense[edit]

This sentence makes no sence "Meanwhile, advertising comic-books inserted into copies of various gaming magazines. (Johnny Turbo was the alter-ego of game developer Jonathan C. Brandstetter.)"

were inserted maybe?

IDK SInce Im not sure what the original author was trying to say ill leave it to you guys.--76.85.173.34 (talk) 07:23, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for posting about the error. Only the original author knows for sure what he meant to write since the section is unsourced, but your guess sounds right. In the future, feel free to be bold and make the edit yourself; at least the sentence would make grammatical sense and the change can always be reverted if other editors disagree . —Ost (talk) 20:35, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

PC-Engine was released in France[edit]

Once again egocentric English people don't read foreign language sources and think Europe = UK.

The PC-Engine was released in France, there was a big buzz about the console but the Japaneses were too busy with the then coming soon US release and gave "white card" (French expression to say "do what you want") to Sodipeng to distribute the console in France. The consoles were imported from Japan and modified in France to be compatible with the French standards. Games were either in Japanese or English and not translated in French, but quick instructions in French to help understand the game mechanics were inserted into the game boxes. The console launched in November 1989 to small size distribution and from January 1990 big resellers started to sell it. The first year the console sold 30,000 units, it was far behind the NES and SMS consoles.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC-Engine#En_France —Preceding unsigned comment added by GRAND OUTCAST (talkcontribs) 16:02, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, though I'd suggest assuming good faith about editors instead of accusing them to be egocentric or deride them for not searching all language sources. The encyclopedia is incomplete and I wager it was quicker for you to fix the information than rant about it. People add sources they know about or information from experience, so it's plausible that a British editor added information about the UK based on what they knew. Moreover, the lede already mentioned that the system was released in France and by extension of your accusation, someone can just as easily accuse you of being egocentric for omitting the Benelux release from the infobox. —Ost (talk) 17:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Region protection segment removed?[edit]

Why? Without a compelling reason I will be restoring it. BcRIPster (talk) 18:11, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Split plz[edit]

I don't tend to get involved in the politics of Wikipedia, but I reckon the CD-ROM²/TurboGrafx-CD should be split into its own page. From a North American perspective it probably makes sense - the TurboGrafx-CD wasn't amazingly popular, but in Japan there's loads of games for the system and at least one other model.

You guys split the Sega Mega Drive, Sega Mega CD and Sega 32X into separate pages and it seems to work. I know there's a few combo systems getting in the way (though the same can be said about the Wondermega and Multi-Mega) but I think the CD-ROM² warrants its own page. You guys have a separate page for the TurboExpress and that's pretty much identical to the normal TurboGrafx-16, just in handheld form.

I know the story behind the CD-ROM² is less "exotic" than the Mega CD but I'd argue it's a better idea than having a page for a SNES redesign. -Black Squirrel 2 (talk) 15:57, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

TurboGrafx task force?[edit]

Actually, I think we need to start orienting this thing over to "PC Engine". The saga of the TurboGrafx-16 is an incredibly tiny part of the saga of the PC Engine, more so than any other localization I can think of; it is vital that we treat PC Engine as the default.

If anyone cares, I just did a simple Google search on "PC Engine" and "TurboGrafx": 3.4M versus 2.4M. As always, that means less than it seems, but it's there. Despatche (talk) 09:57, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Eh. I don't know about that. That would be like favoring "Famicom" over Nintendo Entertainment System. Granted the TG-16 was nowhere near as popular as the NES, but official releases in English-speaking regions were done using the TurboGrafx name. NEC even flirted with introducing the "Grafx" name in Japan with the SuperGrafx and the CoreGrafx. Plus the vast majority of the article's content is already centers around the TG-16. --Jtalledo (talk) 15:42, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
I would tend to agree about a move to PC Engine. While the article claims that the TurboGrafx was released in the UK (supported by a deadlink), I (as someone very active in the UK console scene of the time) have no recollection of such a release so it must have been very limited. All of the UK owners that I know have PC Engines, either the original white PC Engine or grey PC Engine CoreGrafx. While that's purely subjective, the coverage in UK magazines such as Mean Machines and C+VG was solely on the PC Engine. FWIW I'd also favour Super Famicom over SNES despite the fact that I've always known it as the latter - it's just correct. danno_uk 01:12, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 2013[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 19:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

TurboGrafx-16PC Engine – Since "PC Engine" is more common than "TurboGrafx-16" (and "PC Engine" sold more in the rest of the world), this article should be renamed "PC Engine". Magicperson6969 (talk) 03:42, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

  • Oppose in the English-language marketplace it was the TurboGrafx(16), per the 2012 discussion where it was released as such in the UK and North America as the TG. Non-English markets do not apply per WP:Use English, use the English name where the product is released in English. -- 65.92.181.39 (talk) 05:08, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. "PC Engine" is an English phrase, but it was deliberately branded as something other than "PC Engine" in the English-speaking world. In case this is used as an attempt to rip off the scabs on the Genesis/Mega Drive mess again, I am explicitly not expressing any opinion on that article's title, not even by indirect analogy (and in case it is not, I apologize for the defensive wording). 168.12.253.66 (talk) 13:45, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
That would not even apply here since unlike the Genesis MegaDrive issue this was not released as the PC Engine in English speaking European countries. To be clear I am opposing this move as well.--70.49.80.250 (talk) 21:34, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Dual 16-bit GPUs?[edit]

I don't think GPU is the correct term, at least not in the current sense (and therefore shouldn't be linked to the entry on GPU). Would it be a frame buffer? Or blitter? --209.203.125.162 (talk) 20:33, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Proposal for major revision[edit]

I was going to add info from a news blurb in GamePro to this article, only to find that this article's organization is so messy that even though the info I wanted to add is a significant piece of the TurboGrafx-16's history, there's no reasonable place to put it in this article. The size of the article is also extremely bloated given that there are only 24 references, due to a large amount of repeated information across multiple sections and plain old original research. A major fixup is clearly needed. Here's what I propose to do:

  1. Consolidate "PC Engine", "CD-ROM² / TurboGrafx-CD", "Rivalry with Nintendo and Sega", and "TG-16" into one section, "History", in the process removing any repetition and original research.
  2. Eliminate all the repetition in "Variations" (e.g. the TurboExpress is discussed independently in three different subsections), eliminating some subsections entirely in the process, such as "Portable systems" and "Other region variations".
  3. Convert "Region protection" into a subsection under "Technical specifications".
  4. Eliminate the "Magazines" section, leaving at most one or two sentences in the "History" section. The info in this section is trivial in the context of this article; note how most articles on gaming consoles don't even mention their console-specific magazines, much less devote an entire section (with multiple subsections!) to them.

Any suggestions on how to improve the above plan are welcome.--Martin IIIa (talk) 13:12, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Converted your numbers to pound symbols. I'd model the article based on Sega Genesis's sections (between variations and history and hardware and whatnot), but any knife at this point is an incision in the right direction. Tons of minutiae outside WP:VGSCOPE to be cleared czar  14:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Okay, I'll get started on the editing, and will definitely use the Genesis article as a guideline. Oh, and thanks for the pound symbol conversion; I hadn't realized that numbering lists like that messes up Wikipedia code.--Martin IIIa (talk) 17:55, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
I'd also like to request that if you clean up wording. Remember that the TG was only 3rd place in the U.S. market. In Japan, they were the leading competition with Nintendo with Sega holding 3rd. Much of the U.S. press didn't acknowledge this so mind this on citations. Thanks! BcRIPster (talk) 18:48, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't follow what you mean. Anyway, I left the citations essentially untouched, aside from removing a reference to a non-notable blog which was only being used to support a piece of trivia in the "Magazines" section anyway.--Martin IIIa (talk) 02:36, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Oh sorry. I mean there is this perception by more than a few that globally NEC lagged behind Nintendo and Sega. That situation was only true outside of Japan. In Japan Nintendo and NEC led the market with Sega playing third wheel. Unfortunately I've seen many writers, pro and fan alike infer that Nintendo and Sega were always fighting for #1 globally and this bleeds into articles where it risks being cited. So I was just taking a moment to bring it up. I typically keep an eye out for this when I can but you brought up a major rewrite so I thought I should call it out if you are collecting source material. No offence meant and I hope I didn't confuse anyone. :) BcRIPster (talk) 21:59, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Okay, I understand now. I am aware of the PC Engine selling quite well in Japan, though the trouble is it's probably hard to find English language sources supporting that. I'm sure such sources do exist, since gaming magazines like Electronic Gaming Monthly provided considerable coverage of the Japanese gaming industry, but they can't be nearly as plentiful as the sources covering the Turbografx-16's performance in North America. I'll keep an eye out, though (and hopefully so will the other editors around here).--Martin IIIa (talk) 13:39, 1 October 2014 (UTC)