Talk:Turkish–Armenian War

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Other Conflicts[edit]

This article is biased and not reliable During the period of this war, Armenian army also fought against Georgian and Azerbeycan armies. Article has no reference to them. user:Ilpars

Georgian and Azerbeycan conflicts should have their own Campaign pages. There is one for Georgian. If someone wants these articles can be connected on Armenia page (such as Turkish War of Independence callects its own campaigns). Summary: this is a Turkis-Armenian campaign not Armenian wars page. Thanks.--OttomanReference 12:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

"Treaty of Kars" Date[edit]

I was looking at the article on the "Treaty of Kars" and in that article it says this treaty was signed on October 23, 1921, but inside the "Turkish-Armenian War" article under the Treaty of Kars it gives another date which is October 13, 1921, so which one is correct? ROOB323 18:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Historical Homeland[edit]

This article is about a war, in which we do not need to include sentences such as "Armenians forced out of their historical homeland" or so, nor "the Armenian Traitors" on the other side, thus I am reverting both... --Eae1983 (talk) 11:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Rules in Wikipedia[edit]

@85.102.61.240 from Istanbul, you have to discuss your changes on the discussion page! And try to find sources for your changes! The footnotes are from Ter-Minassian, so it doesn't make sense to change the figures and leaving the footnotes untouched. That looks odd or falsified because Ter-Minassian says there were about the same figure of fighting troops. Ok? Apocolocynthosis (talk) 14:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Flagging controversial topics[edit]

The enormous geopolitical problems in the region of present day Turkey and Armenia are noted.

The Armenian Diaspora and The Republic of Turkey hold firmly to their claims in the region.

The topic is highly politicised, and historical references are skewed depending on which side you take. Independent historians are not able to be identified readily.

This topic is extremely likely to be biased and facts flawed, and should be flagged as such, right at the beginning of the topic, in the introductory sentence. 60.242.22.49 (talk) 14:13, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

This conflict was not a combat heavy one. Turkish army used numerical and cavalry superiority to outflank every Armenian defense line. Turkish active soldiers was more likely 30000. And Turkish casualties are highly over-estimated. It was in fact low. When Armenia surrendered, surviving units sent to western front. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.98.108.113 (talk) 16:00, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

On name change[edit]

Following my first attempt to move this article to the title "Turkish invasion of Armenia", I was almost immediately reverted by User:Mttll, who told me in a rather glib manner that this article wasn't my "playground." Nowhere in my reasoning for the move did I indicate that I was doing this on a personal whim nor for the sake of gratifying my own sentiments on the topic. The fact of the matter is that the event in question involved the invasion of one country by another. That it resulted in a brief, uneven war is certainly true but we must not characterize such an event as simply a war. Other articles present excellent precedents, including the Red Army invasion of Georgia and the Invasion of Poland articles. And since other sources do not mince words and all concur that this was an invasion, there should be even greater incentive to support this name change. User Mtll did not provide any justification for his revert and I ask that if any editor opposes my move, they present their views here, rather than revert once more.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 05:04, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

@ Marshall Bagramyan
you are incorrect, because Kars, Iğdır and the other cities in the western Armenia were part of Ottoman Empire until Russo-Turkish War. Armenians captured eastern Anatolia, and Turkish Army fought for its towns. It is NOT an invasion, but liberation. The article should be named as Turkish-Armenian War. You present your anti-Turk, fascist view here, rather than being objective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omerli (talkcontribs) 17:56, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
The provinces of Kars and Ardahan were awarded to the Russian Empire after the 1877-8 war, it is true. In March 1918, the Bolsheviks and the Young Turks concluded a secret agreement in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, which returned the two provinces, as well as awarded the province of Batum, to the Ottomans. But when the war ended that year, the Turks were forced to withdraw to the pre-war boundary, that is, relinquish their gains and forfeit Kars and Ardahan. In March 1919, the British formally assigned Kars to the Armenian government and Armenia's territorial gains were confirmed in the Treaty of Sevres, which extended Armenia's borders to the western reaches of Lake Van. Karabekir's forces invaded the internationally recognized borders of Armenia in 1920 and the his acquisitions were in turn confirmed in the treaties signed with the Bolsheviks the next year. That's all there is to it. Also, please adhere to the guidelines found on this page and refrain from characterizing others users' views as "anti-Turk" or "fascist".--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 02:16, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

What is the name for the events used by the English sources? --Quantum666 (talk) 16:00, 13 February 2011 (UTC) As I see GoogleBooks gives 42 for invasion and 102 for war for exact phrases. --Quantum666 (talk) 16:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually Turks invaded Armenia, without announcing war. So I think the name of the article is right. Aram-van--Aram-van (talk) 16:18, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Aram van, naming articles in WP is based on usage in English sources not on your opinion. See WP:NAME--Quantum666 (talk) 16:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Quantum666, and Marshall Bagramyan your analaogy is totally wrong. accourding to your position: first Armenia occupied eastern Anatolia then Turks. Remember before war eastern vilayets were Ottoman lands.--Abbatai 11:40, 15 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abbatai (talkcontribs)

The eastern vilayets ("eastern Anatolia") were never occupied by the armies belonging to the Republic of Armenia (1918-20). Kars and Ardahan belonged to the Russian Empire prior to the beginning of World War I and Armenia assumed control of those lands in 1919 - they never crossed the pre-1914 boundary. Those provinces were given to the Ottomans after Brest-Litovsk but the Turks were forced to withdraw to the pre-war border after signing the agreement at Mudros in October 1918. If anything, the Turkish Nationalists were operating illegally within Armenia's borders long before the Turkish invasion, fomenting rebellion among its Muslim population and actively working to destabilize the Armenian government. And Aram-van is not stating his opinion - he's simply calling the Turkish military operations what they were.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 06:48, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Naming articles must be based on usage in sources, not on your vision of the events. --Quantum666 (talk) 14:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Wait until the discussion is over! Aram-van--Aram-van (talk) 17:53, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
It is you who should wait the discussion to be finished. The consensus version is "war", the new one is "invasion". So don't move the name until the discussion is over. --Quantum666 (talk) 18:38, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
I never saw you build a consensus here for usage of the word "war" and, if anything, each time you have returned to this article you have arrogated yourself with the duty to change it to the version which is much closer to your own liking. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:15, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Well it is so easy to claim your opponent doesn't build a consensus and it is so easy not to see your opponents comments when you are sure you are right. But it is more difficult to answer your opponent's comment. This is not a playground, Marshal Bagramyan. --Quantum666 (talk) 19:30, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

How odd that this is the second time another editor is using that curious phrasing to describe edits on this article. For the record, I'm not playing around. There were two distinct engagements between the Armenians and Turks during 1918 and 1920. A cursory search through Google Books shows that that phrase is used to refer to both events and a search through Google is as equally inconclusive. For lack of clear results, it only makes sense that we simply called this military engagement what it really was and what historians themselves term it. Richard G. Hovannisian, the authority on the Republic of Armenia, himself gives the title of the fourth chapter in his fourth volume of the Republic of Armenia "The Turkish Invasion and Soviet Diplomacy" (p. 180).--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Interesting how you make all those academic sources "inconclusive". Please see the sources:they use "Turkish–Armenian War" for 1920 events. By the way in "The Armenian genocide in perspective" Richard G. Hovannisian calls them war as well. --Quantum666 (talk) 19:57, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
16 < 18 + 26 = 44

Takabeg (talk) 02:56, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Şu Çılgın Türkler[edit]

Turgut Özakman's Şu Çılgın Türkler is a historical novel (tarihi roman).[1][2]. Probably Mareşal should have known this fact. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 22:09, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Sources[edit]

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Russian invasion(s) of Armenia[edit]

When you write "Turkish invasion of Armenia" in WP search, you are directed here. If you write "Russian invasion of Armenia" you find no articles. Surprising, knowing the fact that the Russians have invaded "Armenia" not once but several times. (Armenia is still, after two decades of "independence" the only ex-Soviet country whose borders are protected by the Russian Army.) Or should I write "First, Second, Third etc Russian invasion of Armenia" to reach the correct pages? Please do not remind me (I already know) that the discussion pages are intended to develop the relative articles. I wonder if my curiosity could help to develop the neutrality and reliability of some WP articles. I also wonder if articles are intended to defame certain nations (which have made similar acts to those of other nations, whose deeds are not turned into articles in WP...) --E4024 (talk) 09:14, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

As noone came here to discuss in 3 months, I am adding an RfC tag. --E4024 (talk) 22:10, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Losses[edit]

Civilian and military deaths should be seperated — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.171.188.148 (talk) 10:33, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Turkish Sources[edit]

I see that pretty much all the sources that talk about the forces seem to be all Turkish. I know for a fact that the DRA at the time was in a bad condition, fighting the USSR, Azerbaijan, Georgia and the Turks at the same time, and they were extremely short in ammunition and weapons, most DRA "troops" weren't even armed, and the majority of the DRA was made up of ethnic Turks. These so called academic sources make these absurd claims of the DRA having a large army and being well equipped are nothing more than works of Turkish nationalistic propaganda. Unless some more reliable sources are given, and not those written by nationalists in an autocratic state, this article should not be trusted. In the mean time, I shall make the appropriate changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.251.53 (talk) 16:07, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Recent edits by Turalhemidli and KazekageTR[edit]

Turalhemidli added a claim of "10,000 civilians killed" as casualties [1]. I removed the claim as unsourced. KazekageTR then restored that content without giving any supporting source [2]. I will again remove this unreferenced content unless sources are presented. Under wp:v, any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be replaced without an inline citation to a reliable source. As explained in my edit summary, the figure is unsourced because the source that was cited does not actually support the figure it is being cited to support. The 10,000 figure mentioned in that source refers to alleged events in Erzincan and Erzurum that happened over 2 years before the subject of this article. Ottoman forces captured Erzincan in February 1918 and Erzurum in March 1918 (massacring any Armenians they found). They did not withdraw from these places after Turkey's surrender at the end of WW1. The war detailed in this article took place at the end of 1920. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:03, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I have waited 3 days for a response, so I have now deleted the tagged unreferenced 10,000 figure under wp:v. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:56, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Promotion of Armenian nationalists[edit]

I see that Wikipedia has lost its neutrality. This war started on September 20 and ended on December 2, how can the war continue until December 23? Very funny another thing, the war is not even 3 months continued and civilians killed 250 000. Even the Turks all day and night would have killed Armenians could never create one such, and the photograph is that Armenians runs from Kars. Turalhemidli 03:57, 17 December 2014 (UTC)