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Ukrainian People's Republic of Soviets and Red Cossacks
The following phrase contains a mistake: because many Ukrainians served in the Red Cossacks (the army of the Ukrainian People's Republic)
Red Cossacks were the army of the Ukrainian People's Republic of Soviets, not of the Ukrainian People's Republic.
The Ukrainian People's Republic and the Ukrainian People's Republic of Soviets were two different states: the first one was autonomist (then independentist), while the second one had a pro-Bolshevik, pro-Soviet and pro-Moscow government.
In Soviet historiography
I would expect this war was erased from Soviet era research/books? --03:54, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- February 9 and then carried out brutal reprisals against the Ukrainian civilian population, killing as many as 4000 civilians
This claim originates from primary sources from the Civil War, particularly the Ukrainian nationalist-separatist side. It was then picked up by emigre literature such S. Melgunov's work, one of which is described as a tendetious pamphlet, not a scholarly source. The above statement violates rules on reliable sources and attribution. This is in contrast to how the massacres and looting perpetrated by the Petlyurists and Gaidamaki bands against the revolutionary forces are established historical facts, most infamously the Arsenal plant massacre.22.214.171.124 (talk) 23:17, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- And your references on this conclusion? The Encyclopedia of Ukraine is a reliable source which is used extensively on here throughout many topics. I highly doubt the link that you added to http://rg.kiev.ua is that. I have reworded the text into more neutral terms and as such, replaced your removal of cited information which is true. I can add more citations to prove this from many of my books on the history of Ukraine. Wikipedia is a neutral collaboration work, not a place to propagate one's political view or another. If it cannot be neutral, then I feel it must simply be removed otherwise there will be an endless edit war, as there is on oh so many topics on here anyway. --dsergienko (talk) 00:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- There are reports that a handful of the Gaidamaki thugs were executed without authorization, which would be expected given the savagery committed against the Arsenal workers, etc. The claim of a massacre perpetrated by Kiev is part of old, anti-Soviet agitprop originating in the Civil War and its immediate aftermath. Melgunov's notorious propaganda pamphlet contains this below, which is of dubious reliability. Not surprisingly, Ukrainian nationalist emigres reiterated such claims in their revisionist history:
- «В британское консульство продолжают являться люди всeх классов, главным образом, крестьяне, чтобы засвидeтельствовать убiйство своих родственников и другiя насилiя, совершенныя «большевиками в неистовствe»... (Элiот -- КЈрзону 21-го марта 1919 г.). Причислены ли сюда жертвы «офицерской» бойни в Кiевe в 1918 г.? Их исчисляют в 2000 человeк! Разстрeливали и рубили прямо в театрe, куда военные были вызваны для «провeрки документов» — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 00:42, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
One Ukrainian Republic - different governments
Conflict cannot be seen as conflict between states because the problem was not in the independent state but with the goverments. Both sides fought for Ukrainian Republic but both fought for different goverments - one allied with "democratic" Europe, another - allied with "democratic" Russia. After the fall of Russian Empire there was no goverment supported by all people at all. Some people don't like goverment for his alliance with Germans, others - with Europe and previous ruling classes, while others don't like goverment for his alliance with Russia (they really wanted indepence - from it). So to say more correct is to say about Civil War for Democracy and democratic goverment on the territories of that day Ukraine (newly-born Ukrainian Republic). All sides wanted Ukrainian Republic - and they got it, but in the form of Ukrainian Soviet Republic allied with Russian Republic in Soviet Union (which was not good to all of citizens - but to most part of them). Also we need to remember that a lot of Ukrainians fought in Red Army and Red Cossacks troops. Serge-kazak (talk) 22:22, 6 April 2013 (UTC)