Talk:Ulama

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Good Work[edit]

this article is improving rapidly - good work! some link to Muslim Brotherhood, tarika, and Taliban is probably required, as the disenfranchised ulema in Egypt, Turkey, Afghanistan, etc., played some role in the rise social and political groups.

Incorrect Translation![edit]

Ulama (Plural), Alim (Singular), and all its derivatives with different transliterations and spellings mean Scientist(s) in Arabic. They come from the root: 'ilm', meaning Knowledge. 'Iloom' is then derived from that, which means Science; 'Pursuit of Knowledge'. 'Alim' is then composed of that which means Scientist (Male singular), be advised there is also 'Alimah' which also means Scientist but is in the female singular form. Ulama is then composed of those, and it means Scientists, the final plural form.

These words do not imply in any way shape or form a reference to only Muslim "scholars". How this article derived only the meaning of 'Muslim Scholar of Islam' out of the above Arabic words is far fetched. As a Muslim and Arab who natively speaks Arabic and English, this is a grave mistake. Ulama can be used to refer to any Scientists of any religion or background as it is simply the Arabic word for Scientists. Is anyone editing this article a native speaker of Arabic and English? (Meaning on a native-level.)

If these words are being used specifically in the context of Shi'a Islam to mean different things then it should be stated in the beginning paragraph of the Article. But those words are Arabic and their meanings are Scientist(s), possibly Scholar(s), certainly not 'Muslim Scholars of Islamic Studies'. Unless Wikipedia aims to change the Arabic language, taking Arabic words which mean something quite generally and declaring that it means only one very specific diverging thing is wholly incorrect. Please address this or I will. Thank you. 72.145.129.154 (talk) 03:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Links[edit]

I added them since it enlighted how the Jurist work, one desribed it regardin one issue, the other critizised them --Striver 03:51, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Transliterations[edit]

In a recent version of the article, some symbols in the words ulema and Shia did not display properly in my browser. I assume that may be the case with other users, so I have changed to the spelling to an easier transliteration. My apologies to those who wished to improve the transliteration of those words. Pecher Talk 22:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Update: the same was the case with some other words, like sharia, so I have simplified the spelling throughout. Pecher Talk 22:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
These symbols are from the insert section at the bottom of the composition page. I have therefore restored them because they are part of the standard set used on Wikipedia. em zilch 03:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Y'know, I'm not sure that this is fair to our readers. Ulema, without any special characters, is widely used in academic and popular literature. One could probably consider it an English word. Insisting on used the word in characters that mean nothing to 99.9% of the readers is showing off, don't you think? If we had a little box in which we gave it in various characters (Arabic, Persian modified Arabic, Turkish, and transliterations) just ONCE, then any people who were fluent in those languages AND English could check our translation. But for actually finding out who and what the ulema are, "ulema" is just fine. Zora 03:43, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

See, I can see the basis for your argument there, whereas "I can't see Wikipedia's compositional character set" just isn't an effective comment.

Requested move (2006)[edit]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to/keep at Ulema. —Nightstallion (?) 10:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Requested move (2006)[edit]

Ulema → Ulama – Ulama is a more common transliteration.

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Support as nominator. Although it remains dubious whether ulama really is the more common transliteration, I'm going to go out on a limb as say it is (with Google results backing that up). joturner 02:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Neutral but "ulema" is not only a Turkish form as stated below. South Asia and Southeast Asia (with far more Moslems than the Middle East) also use that form. AjaxSmack 19:10, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose Ulema is much more widely used in English and the subject has already been discussed on the talk page below. Pecher Talk 20:03, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Add any additional comments'

Rename[edit]

This article should be named "Muslim Islamic jurists". Here is my arguments:

  • Ulema is not a good english article name, this is english Wikipedia.
  • Islamic jurists is no good, since a non-Muslim Islamic jursit are not "Ulema"
  • Muslim jurists are not "Ulema", this they can be a jurist in Swedish law and know nothing about Hanbali law.
  • Muslim Islamic jurists is the correct title, since it must be a Muslim that is engaged in Islamic Jurisprudence.

Comments? --Striver 20:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Anyone who is reading about Islam runs across the word "ulema". It is as useful as hadith, sira, caliph, waqf, and other technical terms. The reader is much more likely to be looking for information on ulema (having encountered it in reading) than for any other term.
I do not believe that jurist is a good translation of alim, since jurisprudence is a translation of fiqh. The ulema have to study kalam, tafsir, and ulum as well as fiqh. Possibly other matters as well -- these are the ones I know.
Islamic jurists would imply ulema who specialize in fiqh. It's not the right translation for ulema.
Muslim Islamic jurists is silly, utterly silly. It is not necessary to specify that an alim is Muslim, any more than it is to specify that a cardinal is Roman Catholic or a rabbi is Jewish. You want articles on Jewish rabbis and non-Jewish rabbis? Zora 22:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Im convinced by your argument, you are right that they are not only specialist in Fiqh. Thanks for a good comment. Peace! --Striver 01:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Let us remember that we are not here to do original research. Just because a phrase can be used doesn't mean it is. "Muslim Islamic jurists" is not used and therefore we should not attempt to use it. Muslim jurists as you describe is Striver are just jurists in a certain type of law. Therefore, the fact that they are Muslim really doesn't matter so much and there is no reason to discuss it as a subject. gren グレン 13:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

"Ulema" seems OK as an article title. The word has been used in English for 237 years (source: Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, Merriam-Webster). Encyclopedia Britannica and the Library of Congress catalog spell it differently (as "ulama"), but they don't replace it with some other phrase. --Hoziron 14:13, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Ulema/ulama[edit]

Somehow Wikipedia seems to have started off with the Turkish term for the clergy -- influence of Bernard Lewis? The Arabic term, ulama, is probably more widespread. However, changing ulema to ulama in every article where it is found is going to be a big job. Is there consensus for a change to the Arabic form, and are there any editors who would help do this? Zora 00:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure this could be done fairly easily using a bot and/or the Auto Wiki Browser:
And on another note, why does Talk:Ulema redirect to Talk:Muslim Islamic jurists. Pepsidrinka 00:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Because Striver had the bright idea, at one point, to move Ulema to Muslim Islamic jurists, without consulting anyone else. Someone handled this by redirecting the article back to Ulema, which didn't take care of the talk page.

If we decide to change to ulama, someone with mighty admin powers is going to have to straighten out the tangle.

We need to get input from the other editors working on Islam-related articles, lest we be seen as pulling a Striver :) Zora 01:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Ulema/Ulama...[edit]

There is no need to change 'Ulema' to 'Ulama'. 'Ulama' is the more proper Arabic pronunciation and spelling, but it isn't used at all as much as 'ulema' in English, as 'Ulema' is the Turkish, Persian and Urdu versions of the word predominant throughout Turkey, Iran, Indian subcontinent, Central Asia, South East Asia etc. and as most Muslims are from these parts of the world, 'ulema' is a lot more commonly used than 'ulama'. As well as this, even some Arabs (Yemenis, North Africans) pronounce 'Ulama' as 'Ulema', so even Arabs use 'ulema', so clearly there is no need to change anything, as both are just as correct. Besides, one is more likely to come across 'Ulema' than 'ulama'. As for 'Muslim Islamic Jurists' - that's just silly, I'm not even gonna bother with that one... (Tanzeel 21:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC))

Sounds like you know what you're talking about, Tanzeel, and I'm willing to trust you unless we hear a chorus of voices for a change to ulama. Zora 21:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The Blatant Islamisation of Wikipedia[edit]

I was most distressed to find yet another article so effectively Islamised (and by the same culprit Jagged 85). This article provides an obscenely large, but irrelevant section on what is purported to be the history of the 'Ulama/Muslim clerics and scientists. As far as I can make out, it repeats many of the tired, uncorroborated outside of a small circle of academics, claims about the Islamic origins of common and civil law. Now, were this confined to the Wikis on Common Law and Civil law, it wouldn't be so bad. Yet, here, we have a section supposedly about the historic development of the cleric in Islamic history; instead, we get information on the putative Islamic origins of components of both common and civil law. Yes Makdisi is a reputable academic, but should his infinitesimaly small, minority viewpoint on the origins of common law be displayed here? The answer is no - the section on History of the 'Ulama should either contain information strictly about the 'Ulama or should be removed!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.236.9.80 (talk) 17:50, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Layout[edit]

Can we start with etymology of the word, than a history of the concept, etc etc? Faro0485 (talk) 00:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Move to Ulama (March 2010)[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved.  Ronhjones  (Talk) 21:50, 23 March 2010 (UTC)


UlemaUlama — Yes, I see there was already a discussion about this archived below, but the vote was

2 support
3 neutral
2 oppose

Of the two who oppose, both assert (without any support) that ulema is more common in English. Except it isn't. The Library of Congress and the Encyclopaedia Britannica both use ulama. Google pulls 3.78m for ulama -wiki versus 2.78m for ulema -wiki. The results show exactly what one would expect: ulema is a regional Turkish and Pakistani use; ulama is the proper Arabic term, more common in English, and used in organizations even in Indonesia, Pakistan, and Turkey.

You'd think the idea of ulema as proper English comes from use under the British Raj or possibly British dealings with Ottoman Turkey, but google.co.uk gives 36,900 pages in the UK for ulama -wiki and only half as may (18k) for ulema -wiki. The page is in the wrong place. -LlywelynII (talk) 23:54, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

  • There's a general move away from non-standard transliterations related to this topic even in general sources. Chances are, if there's an e or an o in it, it's not standard. Support the proposed move per WP:UCN. — AjaxSmack 02:57, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment. There is already a dab page at Ulama. Would this be considered the primary topic for Ulama? If so, that page should be moved to Ulama (disambiguation); otherwise, this should be moved to Ulama (scholar) or something like that. Ucucha 14:41, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
    • This is the primary topic. Only one other page, Ulama (game) ("a ball game played in a few communities in the Mexican state of Sinaloa"), is actually called Ulama. Therefore, the dab page should be moved to Ulama (disambiguation) as you note. — AjaxSmack 16:48, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Removed POV pushing in "History" section[edit]

Jagged85, the person who put the problematic material in, has been RFCed and inshallah, will not be disrupting Wikipedia in the future.

Move? (July 2010)[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 13:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC)


UlamaAlimRelisted. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 22:23, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

  • Ulama is a plural word. The corresponding singular is Alim. 06:18, 15 July 2010 (UTC)—  Hamza  [ talk ]
  • Comment that may be the case in Arabic, but what is it in English? 76.66.193.119 (talk) 21:56, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Support The Encyclopedia of the Middle East seems pretty certain that the English word is Alim, as its description is An alim (Arabic: عالِ "Ahleem") is a Muslim scholar. It is the singular form of Ulema. Encyclopaedia Britannica, although not having an article on Alim, does have one on Ulama, in which it refers to the term entirely in the plural: the learned of Islam, those who possess the quality of ʿilm, “learning,” in its widest sense. From the ʿulamāʾ, who are versed theoretically and practically in the Muslim sciences, come the religious teachers of the Islamic community—theologians (mutakallimun), canon lawyers (muftis), judges (qadis), professors—and high state religious officials like the shaikh al-Islām. In a narrower sense, ʿulamāʾ may refer to a council of learned men holding government appointments in a Muslim state. Skinsmoke (talk) 22:53, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Support The common usage is, in fact, Alim. But mostly the term is substituted with Islamic Scholar in general conversation in English.—  Hamza  [ talk ] 23:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose Our article here (like the Britannica article) describes a class or social group, not an individual member of that group. As such, I think the usage appears to be in favor of Ulama. An few analogies could be made, ie. an Alim is to the Ulama as an Academic is to Academia, or a Priest is to the Clergy. Or in another direction, think of the members of some sports teams, like the Yankees: a single member of the team is called "a Yankee", a group of such members are called "Yankees", and this is also the name of the group as a whole.Erudy (talk) 18:55, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.