Talk:Ulster Banner

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WikiProject icon Ulster Banner is within the scope of the Heraldry and vexillology WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of heraldry and vexillology. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
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1923 not 1953[edit]

The flag of NI was designed in 1923, and the coat of arms taken from it, not the other way around. Where does the 1953 date come from?

From Coat of arms of Northern Ireland

Neville Rodwell Wilkinson, Ulster King of Arms, had designed the great seal and flag of Northern Ireland in 1923.

Source: Royal Roots, Republican Inheritance - The Survival of the Office of Arms, Susan Hood, Dublin, 2002 ISBN 0-9534293-3-4 p.120.

She cites a letter dated February 23, 1923 from the Duke of Abercon (I think was the Governor of NI at the time) thanking Ulster KoA for his work on the flag design.

Lozleader 21:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Ulster Banner straw poll[edit]

Hello there,

A straw poll has opened at this section of the United Kingdom talk page regarding the use of the Ulster Banner for that article's circumstances only. To capture a representative result as possible, you are invited to pass your opinion there. If joining the poll, please keep a cool head, and remain civil. Hope to see you there, Jza84 22:37, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Move image[edit]

As this is not longer the flag of ni should the image be moved to Image:Fomer flag_of_Northern_Ireland.svgImage:UlsterBanner.svg? (Gnevin 00:10, 17 October 2007 (UTC))

I don't see anything beneficial from that move, IMHO. It'll just create more work to rename the filename into the pages it's used. --Howard the Duck 16:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I can run AWB on this when its move ,lets not worry about the technical issuesGnevin 17:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
As this is a common's image the guideline at common's is that the image should be named the same as the EN wiki article. Either way a consensus needs to be built here before a move/remove war breaks out , please indicate if your are in favour Gnevin 20:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Agree--Padraig 21:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

You do people realize there is a mediation case about this, do you? There's also a discussion at the image talk page. (or even at commons) Bring this discussion there. --Howard the Duck 03:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Clearly we don't can you link me to any of these? Gnevin 07:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Northern Ireland flag usage‎. Also, the file is uploaded at Wikimedia Commons. It's best to put the discussion there, with a permission from the ongoing mediation. --Howard the Duck 14:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
The mediation is on the usage not the name i dont think it apply here . I was discussion on IRC with commons Admin's who suggested i build consensus here Gnevin 14:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Well for all of its worth, it's the unofficial flag of Northern Ireland. So as per WP:NC, it should remain there. After all, it is still used unofficially as the flag of Northern Ireland. And with the rate of the mediation's going, most likely it'll only be used in instances relating to sport so having it where it is now seems appropriate. --Howard the Duck 14:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Well going by WP:NC the name of this image is incorrect it was never the official flag of Northern Ireland, the flag is known as the Ulster Banner and the image should be renamed as such, as the current title gives a false status to the image.--Padraig 14:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. I thought the name "Ulster Banner" was a Wikipedia invention and many other people called it the Northern Irish flag. Also, if we go by your explanation, then Britney Spears should now be at Britney Jean Spears, since that is her "official name." See also this Google fight. --Howard the Duck 15:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Personally I Don't care what you call Britney Spears, that has nothing to do with this issue.--Padraig 19:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Britney's official name isn't the most commonly used name. We'd use the most popular name. No reason why we should not follow those same conventions here. --Howard the Duck 10:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Well in this case that is the Ulster Banner.--Padraig 10:59, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Googlefight doesn't say so. --Howard the Duck 11:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Also, you might as well rename Image:Flag of the United States.svg to File:Stars and Stripes.svg and many other national flags as well. --Howard the Duck 11:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Flag of United Kingdom = Union Flag
  • Flag of Ireland = Tricolour
  • Flag of England = St. Georges Flag
Do you know the difference between a name and a discription, the flag is known as the Ulster Banner Former Governmental banner of the Northern Ireland House of Commons, it was never the Flag of Northern Ireland.--Padraig 11:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't matter. Britney Spears' wasn't her "official" name either. We follow the most commonly-used name. Wikipedia uses the most-commonly used name, not the official name, unless the official name is also the most-commonly used one. Currently, the name, "the flag of Northern Ireland" is the more-commonly used name vs. the Ulster Banner. And don't bring me the legalities, I and Wikipedia doesn't care about that. Bring me evidence that the name "Ulster Banner" is the most-commonly used name for the flag then I'll support the rename. --Howard the Duck 11:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Wow, if most commonly used was the rule, British Isles would stand alone, with no mention of British-Irish Isles, on any Irish related articles. GoodDay 21:34, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
WP:NPOV over rules WP:NC, The name suggest this is currently the flag on NI, Now as per flags Flag of Germany the name should be changed in what ever way to reflect this is no long the flag of NI Gnevin 17:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
The flag of Northern Ireland is still the flag of Northern Ireland, Gnevin. The government of Northern Ireland no longer uses the flag because the government of Northern Ireland no longer exists. The flag and its usage did not suddenly wink out of existence some time in the early 1970s. --Mal 20:54, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Thats not what the British Government says: *The Union Flags and flags of the United Kingdom--Padraig 21:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Reindent - As I've said, spare us the legalities - those who don't know and don't care about Northern Irish politics (about 95% of the world's population) sees this as the "flag of Northern Ireland". Also, the filename doesn't appear on the article page, it'll only appear when you hover to the image (at the status bar) and if you click it where the image page shows up. Actually if there's one thing wrong with all of this, it's the alt text on the flagicon templates; for example, hover to the Northern Irish flag at the following text:  Northern Ireland - it displays "Flag of Northern Ireland", that should be renamed into some other name everyone will agree on, since everyone will see that. The filename of an image isn't really of importance to readers see it can't be readily seen and can be left as is. An explanation is needed (there is currently none) at the image page of the file to summarize the points of all sides. --Howard the Duck 15:57, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
This would all be so easily solved, if the UK would stick with just United Kingdom for all four components. GoodDay 19:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
How about for instances when they participate separately? How about like this: United Kingdom England? --Howard the Duck 04:34, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Yep, I'll go along with that. GoodDay 12:59, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't think other people will like that, although I'd support it. --Howard the Duck 13:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

flag of province of Ulster[edit]

Fasach Nua, why are you removing the link to the Flag of Ulster article and then inserting a fact tag.--Padraig 09:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I would rather you addressed me on my talk page, or this page, putting the same question on both is unhelpful, and it would be good manners to at least inform me if you are directly addressing me on an article talk page!
There has been some controvery around the Ulster Banner concerning its status. As far as I am aware the Flag of Ulster has no official status, and was wondering who decided it was the Flag of Ulster and when they did this, and what context it is being used, I think consistancy would be a nice thing, and hopefully this could feed into WP:IMOS Fasach Nua 12:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
There is no controversy around the Ulster Banner its status is made very clear here The Union Flags and flags of the United Kingdom by the British Government. As for the flags of the Irish provinces of Ireland the issue of what status they officially may have or not can and should be dealt with on the articles dealing with those flags, not here.--Padraig 12:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
The document you have cited is the British view within a ver narrow context, I was referring to use of this emblem on Wikipedia, however this is a side issue.
The function of an article talk page is to discuss the article, not to discuss the subject. This article clearly claims that a certain object is the Flag of Ulster, and it is the basis of this assertation contained within the article that I would like annotated. Fasach Nua 14:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Where is the evidence that the Flag of Ulster as the flag of the Irish province is disputed, I see no evidence of this on the talk page of that article, I think your confusing two different issues here, there is a dispute regarding the use of Northern Ireland to represent Northern Ireland today, but there is no dispute over the flag of Ulster.--Padraig 15:26, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I am not arguing it one way or the other, but "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" (WP:VERIFY), if an assertation is made in an article, a reader must be able to verify it. There is little doubt the flag is associated with Ulster, and is used in a limited sporting context, but this alone does not make it the "Flag of Ulster". Fasach Nua 09:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
As the link shows the flag is widely and historically used, perhaps we could say the defacto flag of the province ? [1] Gnevin 17:38, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Deletion[edit]

This flag keeps being deleted..... Is it possible to block people touching the flag whatsover? Speedboy Salesman (talk) 18:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry what flag keeps being deleted and from where.--Padraig (talk) 18:21, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
The Ulster banner image. Speedboy Salesman (talk) 09:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Deleted from where.--Padraig (talk) 11:29, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I can't see it on my PC, at the top of the page where the Ulster Banner image should be, all I see is the description. Speedboy Salesman (talk) 23:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
So your unable to see the image in your browser, try clearing your browser cache and see if it loads properly then, there is nothing wrong with the image on wikipedia.--Padraig (talk) 01:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Do you mean the Northern Ireland page? Yes, thats because it isnt the Flag of Northern Ireland.--Vintagekits (talk) 00:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
How do I clear my browser cache? Speedboy Salesman (talk) 15:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Depends on which browser your using, but in most cases your will be able to it through your preferences or options which will find in your browser menu.--Padraig (talk) 16:21, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I use Internet Explorer. Speedboy Salesman (talk) 18:29, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Citation for name[edit]

There still is no citation for this being the name of the flag. This is required.Traditional unionist (talk) 16:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you Traditional unionist a source (preferably a legal/statutory source is required). I think it is time to delete the statement that it was officially named the "Ulster Banner". Frankly, it also sounds unlikely to be a name that would appear in legislation particularly as the name of the flag would then not correspond with the name of the region concered (i.e. NI). Redking7 (talk) 11:28, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
If its not sourced, this requires a major renovation to how wikipedia refers to that flag. This article needs moved for a start.Traditional unionist (talk) 12:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
The Northern Ireland Government was given the right to have a Governmental Banner to represent itself, and the design of that banner was taken from the shield on the Coat of Arms, that is why its called the Ulster Banner and not the Ulster Flag.--Padraig (talk) 15:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Whats needed is not a theory, or an explanation, but a source.Traditional unionist (talk) 16:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree again with Traditional unionist. I suspect but haven't researched the point, that the flag was the "Flag of the Government of Northern Ireland" (though for ease of reference could still be called the "Flag of Northern Ireland" for WP purposes - as the abolition of the government/Parliament of Northern Ireland abolished (in law) the flag whereas NI was never abolished. Any way, the point remains sources are needed. Otherwise, as TU pointed out, an article move and amendment are needed. Also, to my mind, one article Flag of Northern Ireland seems sufficient. Redking7 (talk) 23:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
[2] the Union flag is the only "offical" flag of Northern Ireland ,Do a WP:RM if you don't agree with this name of this article their are two choices in my opinion
  • Former flag of Northern Ireland or
  • Ulster Banner Gnevin (talk) 00:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Your first choice is invalid as it is NOT the "Former flag of Northern Ireland". It is more accurately described as "Northern Ireland flag" that was used officially by the former government. It is the *only* "Northern Ireland flag" that has ever existed, and is still in widespread use - it has not been superseded. There is still no real high quality source that says that "Ulster Banner" is its name - most of us Northern Irish call it the "Northern Ireland Flag" or "Ulster Flag" - there are many sites that now call it the "Ulster Banner", but in every single case where I've seen this, there has been other text coming from Wikipedia - i.e. a circular reference created by Wikipedia itself. Jonto (talk) 01:14, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

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