Talk:Ulster Irish

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Pronunciation[edit]

Two more very characteristic points of pronunciation that aren't covered here: the change of final slender "r" to something like í, and the realisation of "ch" as "r" in the cluster "-cht". Can someone who can get IPA symbols to work for them and knows how to express these in them maybe add them to the list?Palmiro | Talk 22:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I had the impression that the Ulster dialect used a 'v'-sound for aspirated 'b' where southern dialects would use 'w'. Anyone clarify? Or is that already in the discussion of consonants using IPA (of which I am ignorant).

At least the change of final slender /rʲ/ to /j/ is not characteristic for Ulster Irish as such, but only for the larger Gaoth Dobhair area. I'm not sure about the change /xt/ > /rt/. Qatan 12:59, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is iomaí meancóg ins an chuid a bhaineas le fóineolaíocht na teangtha, ach níl ’s agam cad é mar is féidir iad a cheartú nuair a bíos siad i gclár... What is in the phonology table isn't the list of the phonemes, but the list of the main sounds of Irish. Phonology uses much simpler symbols: p p' b b' m m' f f' v v' t t' d d' N N' n n' L L' l l' s s' R R' r r' x x' k k' g g' ɣ ɣ' ŋ ŋ' h. These are the older speakers' phonological system. In younger speakers' language, there are less phonemes (remove L, N, R and R'). Normally, f, f', v, v' are not labio-dental but bilabial in Irish. /x/ isn't velar but guttural [χ]. The list of vocalic phonemes looks odd as well, and again, it looks like a list of sounds and not of phonemes. Lughaidh 01:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cha + faistineach[edit]

Thuig me fein narbh fheidir an aimsir fhaistineach a usaid i ndeidh "cha", .i. go mba choir "cha phogann muid" a thabhairt mar mhalairt ar "ni phogfaimid" (agus chan "cha phogfaidh muid'). Bhfuil fhios ag einne? Palmiro | Talk 17:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding was that the past tense couldn't be used after "cha", ie, that it would be proper to give "cha phógann muid" as an alternative for "ní phógfaimid" (and not "cha phógfaidh muid"). Does anyone know?

Sin fíor. Úsáidtear an aimsir láithreach amháin i ndiaidh "cha(n)". --Qatan 08:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's true. The present tense is used after "cha(n)".

Vocabulary (Lexicon)[edit]

Some of the entries here are misleading. E.g. gamhain is not exclusively northern word. This word alongside lao is used in Munster at least. Witness its occurence in a well-known children rhyme "Tá capall ag Seáinín". It is stated in "Cluster dictionary of Ballivourney" that lao is a younger calf - about 6 months old, whereas gamhain is from 1 year old and henceforth. This whole myth about north-south division with words gamhain-lao most probably stems from LASID, which is a great resource undeniably. But if you know how it was compiled you shouldn't rush to conlusion that it reflects properly dialectal distribution of words. So I suggest gamhain is taken out as specific northern word.

The same objection to bealach mór entry. It is not ród in the south, at least not in poetry. The normal word in the whole Munster is bóthar - exactly as in Conamara.

I agree that some of this is misleading. Let's add "amharc" and "cluinim" (presumably a mistype for "cluinnim"?) to the list of words that shouldn't be here, because both are used in the poem "Caoineadh Chill Chais" which comes from nowhere near Ulster. (see an t-Oranaiche, vol 1) Michealt (talk) 17:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Amharc" is currently used in Ulster and not widely used outside. Therefore, it should be included in this Lexicon. Classical Irish of course had a much broader vocabulary and a lesser distinction between dialects; it is not surprising to find words now mainly restricted to Donegal being used by poets throughout Ireland in the 16th or 17th century (and likewise for Classical Irish Ulster poets using words that are no longer commonly used in Ulster).

"Rathad" is also used in Donegal as well as "ród"; e.g., "Rathad na mBurcach" (i.e. Burke Road), a song about poitín performed by the fiddler Néillidh Boyle from Cró na Sealóg, near An Clochán Liath, recorded by the BBC in 1952. The pronunciation "rathad" is quite clear, and you will find the old people in Rann na Feirsde and surrounding areas using the word "rathad" as well as "bealach" and "ród". You will also find "rathad" in Na Dúnaibh, an area with many elements associated with Scots Gaelic (e.g., "cha" is nearly always used in place of "ní", including using "chan-fhuil" instead of "níl"). "Rathad" removed from the Lexicon. Evidence be damned I suppose. I wish learned people were in charge of editing Wikipedia, then it would be more like one of those Encyclopaedias I suppose!

He's right you know! "Rathad" is used in Donegal as well as "ród" & "bealach". If you spent any time in Gort a' Choirce or Croithlí you would know this. Here's the link to the title of the song by Néillidh Boyle "Rathad na mBurcach": http://folktrax-archive.org/menus/search%20for%20titles_ra_raz.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.190.84 (talk) 05:25, 31 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Cluinim" has only one "N" in Ulster Irish (so this is not a mistyping). See: Réidh-Chúrsa Gramadaí, by Brian Mac Giolla Phádraig (1938), Appendix 18: "Nótaí ar Ghaeilge Uladh" p.244 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.251.235 (talk) 14:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gaoth Dobhair cht -->rt[edit]

"At least the change of final slender /rʲ/ to /j/ is not characteristic for Ulster Irish as such, but only for the larger Gaoth Dobhair area. I'm not sure about the change /xt/ > /rt/. Qatan 12:59, 17 February 2006 (UTC)"

It is a Gaoth Dobhair thing

159.134.221.58 00:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)James[reply]

Unsourced statement removed[edit]

I am removing the following statement that has been tagged as needing a source since February:

The Irish-speaking area of the Falls Road in Belfast has recently been designated the "Gaeltacht Quarter."

If anyone can find and cite a source for it, feel free to re-add it. —Angr 16:16, 26 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject class rating[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:08, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is now C class and should remain there without major work and referencing Billsmith60 (talk) 12:34, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Question on Former Omeath/Carlingford Gaeltacht[edit]

The only county in Ulster to include Gaeltacht regions today is Donegal, so that the term Donegal Irish is often used synonymously.

There was a Gaeltacht area around Omeath/Carlingford until the 1960s-1970s. Does anyone know if there's records on whether the Irish there was more similar to Ulster Irish or to Leinster Irish? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.175.182 (talk) 18:35, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There was still a Gaeltacht summer school there until recently. Although the teachers at the school mightn't have been from Omeath or using its dialect, but ex-teachers there might be able to answer. I remember meeting gaelic speakers in Omeath in the 1970s.

30 yrs ago I heard voice recordings of some of the last native Gaelic speakers from Omeath whilst attending a lecture given by someone from An Cumann le Béaloideas Éireann.

I was struck of their dialect to that of the Donegal Gaeltacht. Eog1916 (talk) 20:41, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In "The Outlines of the Phonology of Manx Gaelic," by Sir John Rhys, he quotes a Manx fisherman who was fluent in Manx, and who said that when he visited Carlingford Lough, the Gaelic there was easiest of all Gaelic dialects for him to understand, and much easier than any dialects he'd hear in Scotland. 144.92.192.184 (talk) 20:17, 29 January 2015 (UTC)Síle[reply]

Ulster Gaelic Dialect[edit]

It would seem reasonable to change the title of this article to 'Ulster Gaelic Dialect' given that the opening passage of the article states that "Ulster Irish is the dialect of the Irish language spoken in the Province of Ulster". I like my long dead mother before me prefer the use of the term 'Gaelic' and not 'Irish' (which I consider perjorative) in the context of our language. I am not alone for even Panu Höglund (REF: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaeilge/gramadach/canuinti.html) has opted for this usage!

"At one time the Gaelic language group was spoken throughout Ireland, from where it spread to the Isle of Man and to much of Scotland. Currently fully native use of Gaelic is limited to a few discontiguous areas in the westernmost reaches of Ireland and Scotland. In the case of Ireland, everyone agrees that Gaelic is nowadays found in three main dialects: that of Ulster, that of Connacht, and that of Munster" (Ó Siadhail, 1989).Eog1916 (talk) 21:04, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, please stop moving pages until after a discussion using WP:RM has taken place. The second time you moved it, you moved the talk page for Ulster Irish into article space under the title "Ulster Gaelic Dialect". As for the move itself, there are other considerations besides what you and your mother think. While there are people who prefer to use the term "Gaelic" for the entire range of Goidelic languages in Ireland, Man, and Scotland, other people prefer to use the term "Irish" for the forms spoken in Ireland, "Manx" for the forms spoken on Man, and "Scottish Gaelic/Scots Gaelic" or simply "Gaelic" for the forms spoken in Scotland. Your quote from Ó Siadhail doesn't really support your position, as he in no way is arguing against using the term "Irish"; and in fact he uses the term "Irish" himself, first and foremost in the title of the book you took the quote from. Panu also doesn't argue against the term "Irish" on the page you link to; on the contrary, he uses the terms "Munster Irish" and "Ulster Irish". Where he uses the term "Gaelic" on that page, he always modifies it as either "Irish Gaelic" or "Scottish Gaelic", but he doesn't say "Ulster Gaelic". In addition, it makes no sense to move only the article on the Ulster dialect; if this one is moved, Munster Irish and Connacht Irish should be moved as well for consistency, which means the requested move should include those articles. There are more arguments against the move, but I'll save those for the requested move, should you choose to start one. —Angr (talk) 11:25, 23 February 2011 (UTC) updated 12:06, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Beachd vs barúil vs tuairim[edit]

Labhraíonn an t-alt gur as an bhlas thuaidh beachd, agus is as blas dheis barúil. Ach, bím ag cloisteáil barúil san tuaisceart (i mBéal Feirste/nDún na Gall) agus sílim go raibh tuairim caighdéanach. An bhfuil foinse ag duine uile?

The word list shows beachd as Ulster Irish and barúil as southern, but I've been told barúil is northern and tuairim is standard Irish. Does anyone have a source either way? ADREY talk 11:41, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]