Talk:Unitarianism

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Proposed Move (again)[edit]

I came on here to look for the modern day religion Unitarianism, and have found it is listed under the American-name for the religion (Unitarian Universalism). In other countries, like the UK, Canada, India, Germany, South Africa, Norway, Denmark etc, it is just called Unitarianism. To avoid being American-centric, I propose this page is moved to Unitarianism (theology) with the default "Unitarian" page being the disambiguation one. That would put both the Christian theology and the modern day religion on an equal footing. I see there was a previous move that was reverted even though the debate seemed to be in favour of moving. Deist12345 (talk) 18:12, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Unitarianism is a theological position, contrasting with Trinitarianism. As the hat note on the article points out, Unitarian Universalism is a different article, oddly enough titled Unitarian Universalism. This has been brought up time and again, and the consensus is to keep this article titled as it is: please check the archives. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 00:33, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
You did not seem to engage with my points at all. Yes, I understand it is a theological position. That's why I suggested moving it to Unitarianism (theology). Did you not bother to read my comment? Yes, I understand there is a separate article for Unitarian Universalism. That's why I mentioned I found the article under the American name. Again, did you not read my comment? My point was that Unitarian Universalism is known as Unitarianism outside the United States and that it is of equal importance. For that reason I suggest Unitarianism should be a disambiguation page, with equal status for both. You are arguing that the theology article should take precedence over the religion when it comes to the Unitarian term, which you have not justified at all. I have checked the archives and most of the debate seems to have leaned against you the last time this came up, but you moved it back anyway.Deist12345 (talk) 01:34, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Do you believe that Trinitarianism should be moved to Trinitarianism (theology)? Why should the one theology be renamed and not the other? The religion promoted by the Unitarian Universalist Association is Unitarian Universalism: that it is known as "Universalism" for short is beside the point. As for why the theology should have precedence, the theology has been around from Christianity's beginning almost 2000 years ago, while Unitarian Universalism is less than a century old: I dare say that the theology has a significant prior claim to the name. I will again refer you to the archives, conveniently linked at the top right of this Talk page, where you can see past discussions about making the move you are suggesting and why that move was not made. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 03:27, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
No, I do not believe that Trinitarianism should be moved, because the term trinitarianism does not clash with anything else. One theology article should be renamed and the other should not because one clashes and one does not. Disambiguation decisions on Wikipedia are not done on creating symmetry within a class - e.g. Pluto is just Pluto while Ceres is Ceres (dwarf planet). You are also completely ignorant about the modern religion of Unitarianism. It is not "short for" Unitarian Universalism outside the United States. It is the ACTUAL name of the religion in Europe and in South Africa. The UUA is merely an American organisation for what is an international religion. Unitarian churches in the UK belong the General Assembly of Unitarian and Free Christian Churches, for example. I have read the archives and generally it seems to be you overriding everyone else. Deist12345 (talk) 16:21, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Contrast with Nontrinitarianism[edit]

We have separate pages for Unitarianism and Nontrinitarianism. Either they should be merged or the distinction should be made a lot clearer here, considering that the first line contrasts with trinitarianism. The Enlightened (talk) 20:49, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

There are a great many divergent nontrinitarian theologies, including Arianism (the Son is God, but was created and is not eternal), Sabellianism (the three Persons exist, but are different aspects or modes of a single being) and Adoptionism (Jesus was a mortal until he was elevated to godhood), just to name three of the major ones. Unitarianism is a specific form of nontrinitarianism; like these other forms, unitarianism represents a distinct thread of Christian belief with its own history. I see no reason to combine this article with the other one. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 02:05, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Proposed move[edit]

I feel this article needs to be moved to something like Unitarianism (Christian Theology). Unitarianism in many countries, such as the UK, refers mainly to the religious movement known as "Unitarian Universalism" in the USA.80.231.172.154 (talk) 14:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Disagree Such a move offers no clarification, and any potential confusion is already addressed by the headnote referring to the disambiguation page. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 15:15, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Agree I am a British Unitarian and it seems very wrong that most people looking up our religion automatically get taken to Christian Unitarianism. Unless one page is clearly dominant, then the disambiguation page should be the first place people are taken to. The Enlightened (talk) 15:20, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
Query I was involved in this page years ago. I agree that the situation, then and now, is not ideal. Is there a way to examine the logs, and see readers' click-trails? There must be some way to measure whether we are making the public's job easier for them or more difficult. Can the average reader quickly find what they were coming for, or do they hop around in despair and confusion? Wikipedia must collect data on this sort of thing. Interpreting it intelligently is another matter. BrainyBabe (talk) 16:06, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
I believe there are ways of doing this, but Wikipedia's policy is that the term should go to a disambiguation page unless there is clearly a primary topic Wikipedia:Disambiguation. That does not seem to be the case with the Christian theology. The Enlightened (talk) 22:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Agree I'm Canadian and Unitarianism means the non-Christian religion here. - 156.109.18.2 (talk) 18:11, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I am dead set against the new title "Christian Unitarianism," as it is as redundant as the phrase "Christian Protestantism." The article identifies itself as Unitarianism the theology. Apparently no one here understands what the word "theology" means. It necessarily includes the concept of God. So as a compromise, I suggest "Unitarianism (theology)" as the title. Don Bodo (talk) 20:30, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I would very much like to see it go back to Unitarianism: the lede does an excellent job of providing context and explanation in the first paragraph. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 20:52, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
I also object to this move. Unitarianism has a long history, which is not concluded. (See for just one example, Transylvanian Unitarian Church.) That some people use "unitarianism" as short-hand to mean Unitarian Universalism is just laziness (and I don't mean that as a slight - I do it too sometimes), and laziness is not a good basis to use for deciding article titles. LadyofShalott 03:11, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
The move was made: the question before is whether it should be moved back. I say it should be moved back. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 03:13, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
"Christian Unitarianism" sounds like an offshoot of UU. This article should be renamed to "Unitarianism" and be the default target for the term. Hatnotes to UU and Nontrinitarianism suffice – as noted above, the text already defines the broader uses of the term very well. SteveStrummer (talk) 04:04, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Move[edit]

In line with the Be Bold policy, I have moved this article as there was only one objection. The Enlightened (talk) 19:12, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I've put in a WP:BRD at WP:RM, even though I might personally support such a move (undecided) the objections above are reasonable for a bold move of a major article. Typically admins will act on such WP:BRD requests within a couple of hours. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:47, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
That was too jargony for even me to figure out. :) So, for anyone else who's wondering, the request is at WP:RMTR#Requests to revert undiscussed moves. LadyofShalott 04:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Merci pour la traduction! :) ...and actually after a few minutes thought unlikely to support. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:07, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Thank you Anthony Appleyard. While we're here User Talk:LadyofShalott would help to have 3rd party input on early Polish Unitarian at Talk:Katarzyna Weiglowa please re consensus for changes to lead. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:54, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for this. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 13:53, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
The invitation above is open to anyone BTW. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:19, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Biblical Unitarianism[edit]

This subject has as much place in this article as Unitarian Universalism. Someone recently added a whole new section on Biblical Unitarianism. There is no reason to discuss it in this article, other than to point out that it is not the same as Unitarianism. Biblical Unitarianism has a page of its own already. See WP:IRRELEVANT#Irrelevant_information. Don Bodo (talk) 01:48, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

This I'm afraid reflects Don Bodo's personal view that the tiny churches today still holding on to the beliefs of Unitarians (in the historical sense 1600-1800) shouldn't be counted as Unitarianism because the modern Unitarian Church is not Christian. We've been round this many times before and consensus has always been that just because a modern Unitarian still holds on to the Bible does not bar them from falling under the historical heading Unitarian. Text in this article (and related articles) makes it clear enough already that most modern Unitarian Churches reject the beliefs of historical Unitarianism. It is also not true of the entire world there are still Unitarian Church members in Transylvania who hold, in some degree, to the attachment to the Bible of the founders of the Unitarian Church in Transylvania.
Having said that, there is a weight issue, comment on modern biblicist (?) Unitarian churches should be in proportion to the fact that they are very small compared to the General Assembly of Unitarian and Free Christian Churches and do not have historical continuity with General Assembly of Unitarian and Free Christian Churches church buildings organizations etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:19, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
I reverted Don Bodo's deletion per WP:BRD. Firstly because it was reasonably sourced, secondly because Don Bodo's deletion goes against previous discussion, thirdly because to me it smacks a little of the same sort of problem as with a anti-Mormon editor who recently deleted Mormons from the Godhead article because "Mormonism isn't Christianity" - experienced religion editors like User:Dougweller User:Editor2020 User:John Carter have all in the past reverted such kind of "isn't Christian" edits. This is a "Biblical Unitarism isn't Unitarianism" edit, which I think is tendentious. In the General Assembly of Unitarian and Free Christian Churches it is not unheard of to have some members who to some extent "believe in the Bible" probably as much as some Anglicans, without the liturgy. So I think a bit of tolerance towards Unitarians who define themselves as Christians is required here. It isn't Wikipedia's job to weed people out.
Again WP:WEIGHT is still an issue. s what the word "theology" means. But I'd feel more comfortable with User:TechBear User:LadyofShalott User:The Enlightened User:SteveStrummer or others weeding/trimming/adjusting the section, rather than a wholesale delete as User:Donbodo. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:36, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
What User:In ictu oculi isn't revealing is that we had a lengthy and in-depth discussion about this last year, which he knows very well, and it was decided that Biblical Unitarianism was to have its own page, because it is not the same as Unitarianism. It was also decided that a statement would be made at the beginning of the article that Biblical Unitarianism was a different use of the word Unitarianism and was to be sought elsewhere. He let some time pass and then tried to advance his agenda yet again by adding in promotional material for Biblical Unitarianism--a conservative theology of modern origin (the name is a neologism) with no historical connection to Unitarianism except for borrowings of Christological arguments from Unitarian writers. Robert Spears and Samuel Sharpe, the first to use the term "Biblical Unitarianism" had never been members of the Unitarian movement. Biblical Unitarians have always been separate. I will again point out that Unitarianism, as this article states near the beginning, is a proper noun, not a generic noun that encompasses all non-Trinitarian points of view. Unitarianism is a whole theological system, which includes much more than non-Trinitarianism. Therefore Biblical Unitarianism is irrelevant to this page, and the only reason for its inclusion is to attract people who browse this page to Biblical Unitarianism. It's nothing more than a recruitment tool. Don Bodo (talk) 04:15, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
I should add that the section on Biblical Unitarianism, which In ictu oculi restored (and which was entered under "Italy"), does not make any connection to the main article. No reference to Unitarianism proper is provided whatsoever. It's simply a tangent. Relevance must be shown. If Biblical Unitarianism is included here, then for consistency's sake, all non-Trinitarian religious groups should be included. But that would be ridiculous, because this article is not about all non-Trinitarians in the world. WP:Relevance_of_content Don Bodo (talk) 04:19, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
@Donbodo, please no need to be nasty, we can disagree but there's no need for WP:PA, it isn't "isn't revealing." Yes there's a page Biblical Unitarianism. Sure per WP:FORK lots of various Unitarian churches and submovements have their own sub-pages under the umbrella. See WP:FORK for the distinction. There should be a { main | Biblical Unitarianism } link on top of the relevant paragraph here.
@LadyofShalott:, I note that the sections are disrupted. 5 Modern Christian Unitarian organizations 5.10 Italy 5.10.1 Biblical Unitarian Movement, etc. Seems a mess which a neutral editor could sort out. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:37, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
@LadyofShalott:, I was not trying to attack anyone. There is a history here, and that is all I was referring to. My apologies to In ictu oculi if I came off as nasty. Please note that Biblical Unitarianism is not a "submovement" or "subgroup" of Unitarianism. It is an unrelated group with a similar name.Don Bodo (talk) 04:56, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Hungarian Unitarian Church of Transylvania[edit]

It seems that the doctrines and organization of this church are contrary to the rest of the Unitarians in the world on several issues. For example predestination, apostolic succession, etc.. It seems there should be a sub-section dedicated to the distinct brand of Unitarianism held by the HUCT in contrast to other brands. References to the different brands should not be conflated together and mixed up with difference references throughout the text which ends up creating a non-existent "average Unitarianism" which does not reflect the reality of the various different Unitarian branches. F.Tromble (talk) 15:15, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Except that this article is about the theological position as distinct from Trinitarianism, and not about specific denominations. If it gives too much weight to the theology of the Unitarian Universalist Association, the answer is to reduce that weight and bring in more varied examples, not to go into irrelevant depths about other churches. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 16:23, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

OK, good idea. A more general discussion of the theological position without going into specific beliefs of various organizations will be much better. So let's remove the references to predestination etc., which really has nothing to do with unitarianism as a theological concept.F.Tromble (talk) 13:47, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Modern Christian Unitarian organizations[edit]

In the first sub-section under Unitarianism#Modern Christian Unitarian organizations, "Hungarian and Transylvanian Unitarian Churches", in the first sentence is a parenthetical statement including the clause "which is union with the Unitarian Church in Hungary". My question is: what is "is union with"? I've never heard that phrase before. CorinneSD (talk) 14:32, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

It's just a typo for "is in union with" In ictu oculi (talk) 01:54, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
O.K. Thank you. I've heard that before. However, I think even that is a bit obscure for the average reader. It would be nice if a verb (or past participle) could be found that would express what is meant. CorinneSD (talk) 14:59, 12 June 2014 (UTC)