Talk:United Kingdom

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	This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the United Kingdom article.
	This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject. Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith Avoid personal attacks Be welcoming Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability
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Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Q1: Is the United Kingdom a "country"? A1: Reliable sources support the view that the United Kingdom is a single country. This view is shared with other major reputable encyclopedias. There has been a long-standing consensus to describe the UK in this way. Q2: Why isn't Great Britain listed as one of the names of the United Kingdom, in the lead? A2: See the article entitled "Terminology of the British Isles". Great Britain is the name of the largest island that the UK encompasses, and is not generally used in source material as the name of the country. Indeed, Britain 2001, the "official reference book" of the United Kingdom produced by the Office for National Statistics for "British diplomatic posts" says in its foreword (page vii): The term 'Britain' is sometimes used as a short way of expressing the full title of the country: the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (or more simply again, the United Kingdom or the UK). 'Great Britain' comprises England, Wales and Scotland only. There has been a long-standing consensus not to include Great Britain in the lead as an interchangable name of the state. Q3: Isn't the United Kingdom a "collection of countries"? A3: This is one of the most common questions raised on this talk page, but consistently, consensus goes against taking that approach. No major reputable source describes the UK in this way. However the history of the formation of the United Kingdom, supported by source material, highlights that England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales are "countries within a country". Please also refer to Q4. Q4: Are England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales countries? A4: This is the most frequent question raised by visitors to this talk page, and the issue which generates the most debate. However, as a result of a lack of a formal British constitution, and owing to a convoluted history of the formation of the United Kingdom, a variety of terms exist which are used to refer to England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.[1] Reliable and official sources support use of the word "countries", and this term has broadly won preference amongst the editing community (note, however, that a country is not the same as a sovereign state), but "constituent country" is also used; the community endeavours to achieve an atmosphere of neutrality, compromise, and camaraderie on this issue. See also Countries of the United Kingdom for more details about the terms that have been used to describe England, Nothern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. Q5: Why don't we refer to England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales as nations, or by the term "Home Nations"? A5: Widespread confusion surrounds the use of the word "nation". In standard British English, and in academic language, a nation is a social group of two or more people, and not a division of land. This is also the approach taken in the nation article, and across Wikipedia (for example, the English people and the Québécois are described as "nations", reflecting real world practice). The term Home Nations is generally used only in sporting contexts. It is not used in any major reputable sources outside of sport, and is not the approach taken by any other encyclopedia. Q6: Isn't Northern Ireland a province, and Wales a principality? A6: This view is supported by some sources, but the current consensus amongst the editing community is aligned to a greater body of work which describes both Northern Ireland and Wales as countries. However, the terms are not all mutually exclusive: a country can also be a principality or a province, and these terms are mentioned throughout Wikipedia as alternative names in afternotes. Q7: Why isn't the flag of Northern Ireland shown in the article? A7: Northern Ireland has not had its own unique, government sanctioned flag since its government was prorogued in 1972, and abolished in 1973 under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973. During official events, the British government uses the Union Flag — the flag of the United Kingdom — and this is the only flag used by the government in Northern Ireland. The consensus is to reflect this in the article with a note.

United Kingdom has been listed as a level-3 vital article in Geography. If you can improve it, please do. This page has been rated as B-Class.

This subject is featured in the Outline of the United Kingdom, which is incomplete and needs further development. That page, along with the other outlines on Wikipedia, comprise Wikipedia's Outline of Knowledge, which also serves as the table of contents or site map of Wikipedia.

	United Kingdom was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result May 3, 2006 Peer review Reviewed July 22, 2006 Good article nominee Listed September 30, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted February 11, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted October 3, 2008 Good article reassessment Delisted Current Status: Delisted good article

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

WikiProject United Kingdom (Rated B-Class, Top-importance) United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject UKUnited Kingdom articles United Kingdom portal v • d • e This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.  B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.  Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom (Rated B-Class, Top-importance) Politics of the United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomTemplate:WP UK PoliticsPolitics of the United Kingdom articles Politics portal v • d • e This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Politics of the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.  B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. This article has not yet been checked against the criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked Accessibility: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following code to the template call: | b1 <!--Referencing & citations--> = <yes/no> | b2 <!--Coverage and accuracy --> = <yes/no> | b3 <!--Structure --> = <yes/no> | b4 <!--Grammar and style --> = <yes/no> | b5 <!--Supporting materials --> = <yes/no> | b6 <!--Accessible --> = <yes/no> assessing the article against each criterion.  Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Todo list: edit · history · watch · purge Here are some tasks you can do: Cleanup: Cleanup articles recorded in our Cleanup listing Stubs: Expand any of our stub articles. Infobox: Identify pages that need infoboxes by adding |needs-infobox=yes to the project banner. Add infoboxes to any articles appearing in this category. Other: Check this category for any articles requiring urgent attention. Add {{WP UK Politics}} to all talk pages within the project scope. Assess the quality of all our unassessed articles Identify pages that need images by adding |needs-picture=yes to the project banner. Find images for any articles listed in this category. Note: only free images are allowed for living people unless an argument can be made that their appearance has changed significantly since the time in which they were notable (see WP:NFC#Unacceptable use). WikiProject Countries (Rated B-Class) CountriesWikipedia:WikiProject CountriesTemplate:WPCountriescountry articles Geography portal v • d • e This article is within the scope of WikiProject Countries, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Countries on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.  B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Accessibility: criterion met WikiProject Countries To-do List: edit · history · watch · purge Help Reach FA Status: Afghanistan, Ecuador, Russia, United States of America, Bolivia, Botswana, Brazil, Saudi Arabia Review and Assess: All De-Stub: None Create: Every nation has a WikiPage, but please add to those in need. Create: more "Wildlife of ....." articles for all countries; See Wildlife of India for reference. Add Gini coefficient to each country. See: Wikipedia:Bot requests/Archive 11#Can anyone create a bot that take Gini Coefficients from a page and add them in each country ? Template talk:Infobox Country/Archive 5#Adding Income inequality / Gini Index Update all national militaries with {{Infobox National Military}}. Version 1.0 Editorial Team     (Rated B-Class) This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team. This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia. Additional information: B This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as top-Importance on the assessment scale. This article is included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection, or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version. Please maintain high quality standards and, if possible, stick to GFDL-compatible images. This article is a vital article. This article is one of the supplemental core articles, which every encyclopedia should have. WikiProject UK geography (Rated B-Class, Top-importance) UK geographyWikipedia:WikiProject UK geographyTemplate:WPUKgeoUK geography articles United Kingdom portal v • d • e This article falls within the scope of WikiProject UK geography, a user-group dedicated to building a comprehensive and quality guide to places in the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you wish to participate, share ideas or merely get tips you can join us at the project page where there are resources, to do lists and guidelines on how to write about settlements.  B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.  Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

edit · history · watch · refresh  To-do list for United Kingdom:
Here are some tasks you can do: Verify: Large parts of article are completely uncited - i.e. need inline citations - the last half of Football for instance, and almost all of the Culture, Geography and Christianity sections. There are many unattributed expressions of opinion in culture section. Publishers and last access dates need to be shown for all of the citations.

	WikiProject Echo      (Yiddish)	EchoWikipedia:WikiProject EchoTemplate:FAOLEcho articles
v • d • e United Kingdom is a featured article on the Yiddish Wikipedia. You may be able to improve the article on this project by drawing content, media or references from that article. To get involved with featured articles in other languages, visit WikiProject Echo or its discussion page.

	The article, United Kingdom, has been mentioned by a media organization:
	"The 50 most-viewed Wikipedia articles in 2009 and 2008". The Daily Telegraph. August 17, 2009. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/6043534/The-50-most-viewed-Wikipedia-articles-in-2009-and-2008.html.

Archives
Sept. 2001 – August 2004 August 2004 – April 2005 April 2005 – November 2005 November 2005 – Feb. 2006 February 2006 – May 2006 Mid May 2006 - July 2006 July 2006 - November 2006 November 2006 - April 2007 April 2007 - July 2007 Aug 2007 - Dec 2007, part 1 Aug 2007 - Dec 2007, part 2 Aug 2007 - Dec 2007, part 3 Aug 2007 - Dec 2007, part 4 Aug 2007 - Dec 2007, part 5 Dec 2007 - May 2008 June 2008
Country/State debate archives
June 2005-March 2006 April 2006-May 2006
Terminology debate archives
July - September 2006 September 2006-October 2006
Subdivision name debate archives
April - June 2008

Contents 1 Poll on Ireland article names 2 White space - I wasn't joking 3 GDP figures. 4 Auto-peer review 5 RFC: calling Northern Ireland a "country" 6 Third highest defense spending in the world?

[edit] Poll on Ireland article names

A poll has been set up at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ireland_Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names. This is a formal vote regarding the naming of the Ireland and Republic of Ireland and possibly the Ireland (disambiguation) pages. The result of this poll will be binding on the affected article names for a period of two years. This poll arose from the Ireland article names case at the Arbitration Committee and the Ireland Collaboration Project. The order that the choices appear in the list has been generated randomly. Voting will end at 21:00 (UTC) of the evening of 13 September 2009 (that is 22:00 IST and BST).

[edit] White space - I wasn't joking

I run a pretty average (common even) PC. It's a Hewlett Packard with a 19" flat screen monitor. My operating system is Vista and my browser, Internet Explorer 8. I imagine this is pretty normal, not one of these Macs with Firefox with bespoke monitors etc....

So... when I made this edit, I wasn't joking. I thought it would be reverted because it removed an important Welsh building (that can be worked out later), but this is what I see when I click on one of Wikipedia's most visited, most linked articles. Not good, and I don't think the ensuing revert is the answer, because I'm sure readers run standard PCs like mine. Can we knock our heads together to fix this please? I've respected WP:BRD. --Jza84 |  Talk  21:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I never thought you were joking. But it works fine on my Mac in Firefox. So I think the problem is at your end. Try downloading a different browser such as Firefox or Safari.--Toddy1 (talk) 21:32, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Seriously, that's not the answer! We should not be tayloring the article to suit particular browsers, they should fit all browsers, and I don't expect all readers to discard IE for Firefox. --Jza84 |  Talk  21:34, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Unless we explore what the problem is, we cannot get it solved.--Toddy1 (talk) 21:37, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

The problem is, too many images, not enough text. --Jza84 |  Talk  21:39, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I get exactly the same white space as Jza84 on a 15.4" screen at 1280 by 800, running IE8. Running Firefox it's fine though. But we can't expect everyone to use Firefox. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:42, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Probably the root of the issue is with IE-in-general, as the view from IE7 is equally crap. But the proximate cause is surely the surfeit of eye candy. Right-left-right layout is only marginally better, which is to say still ugly as anything. Could we gallerify the pics at the top/bottom of the section? Or what? Not an image expert me. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:45, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

There's more, I'm afraid. Even worse. --Jza84 |  Talk  21:46, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem - but a mac with Safari, time to get away from those primitive calculating machines with operating systems that owe more to punch cards than object orientated software Jza! A gallary sounds the best idea and Jza is pretty slick at doing them ..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snowded (talk • contribs) 22:52, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, there is this image, but I'm not sure if this would have the right amount of appeal for everyone? --Jza84 |  Talk  22:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't know; it has a certain charm... Cordless Larry (talk) 22:14, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I like that image although it depends what sort of size it would be in the article, its no good if its too small. Is funny seeing the 4 buildings next to each other with the different styles, i really like two buildings but dont like the style of the other two. although im sure everyone has their own tastes lol BritishWatcher (talk) 22:22, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Another alternative is somehow expanding the prose, so it doesn't allow for the forced white space. I suspect though that's a cop-out; some users with widescreen monitors will likely still see the white space? --Jza84 |  Talk  22:31, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I dont see any white space, although for me the Welsh assembly building looks more like its in the Local government section. Looking at it now i see the 1 image of the 4 buildings wouldnt fit in for that section as its just talking about devolved administrations, wouldnt make sense to have westminster there. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

That's true. Really any photo montage should only include the three devolved administrations. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:51, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe this is a good oportunity to review all the images in the article. Some of them, are, well, not likely to be "featured pictures" lets just say. England has a really good mixture of high quality and relevant imagery now. It would be nice if the UK could mimic some of that good practice.

I'd also ask if we really, I mean really need photos of all three. To say the UK gets mocked/picked on for being anglocentric, there are an aweful lot of Scotland-related images.... may I say... :S --Jza84 |  Talk  23:00, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I think its good to have all 3 images there. Just an idea but how would having Wales and Scotlands images on one side at the top then the Northern Ireland assembly on the other side at the bottom. We could also ad a few more lines about devolution to northern Ireland which is clearly alot more complicated than in the case of Scotland and Wales and yet currently it only has two lines. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:07, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Hitting on the review of all the images, outwith the infobox, I see 15 images that are portraits/maps/pan-UK related, 17 images related to England (of which 11, yes 11 are related to London), 9 to Scotland, 2.5 to Wales, and 1 to Northern Ireland. Most of them are pretty poor in terms of quality. I would suggest removing some of the London-centricity more than anything, then upgrading some of the images. --Jza84 |  Talk  23:24, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

lol whats the .5 for Wales? On the other images, i think most of those London images are justified and cant be replaced, the only one thing i think could be easily changed is the mosque one, with an image from Birmingham or another major city. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:35, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually i suppose we could get rid of the birmingham uni, its not of the same world wide reputation as Oxford / Cambridge. Also i think the channel 4 building should go, only the BBC needs displaying. and i see the .5 is for the law one lolBritishWatcher (talk) 23:35, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't see a need for all three devolved images - since the Scottish parliament is the only other parliament in the UK, I could see a reason to leave it and remove the other two. 86.158.120.13 (talk) 23:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Well spotted BW! Yep, although I was generous - it's another London image really. I'm not keen on Shakespeare and Burns (would rather have Dickens - post 1707 you see, and a person on our banknotes). And something like The Proms (loads of high quality images here). I'd like the River Severn in there if possible, and/or Lough Neagh. Liverpool is probably Britain's most Anglo-Celtic city. All things that can eliminate bias and introduce higher quality images. --Jza84 |  Talk  00:09, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Ohhh yes lets get a proms image in there somewhere please. Im ok with Shakespeare / Burns though considering they are mentioned in detail in the actual text, but Dickens would be good. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

"..Dickens - post 1707 you see, and a person on our banknotes" - NO - Dickens is only on Bank of England's banknotes - Burns is on Scottish Banknotes as well as post 1707. Shakespeare should be the one to go being pre 1707 86.158.120.13 (talk) 00:47, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Bank of England notes are used throughout the UK, the BofE being the central bank of the UK. Scottish notes are not produced by the central bank of the UK. Burns is a distinctly Scottish figure, not a UKish figure. There are already plenty of Scotland images in the article, we should consider regional diversity and relevant imagery. --Jza84 |  Talk  10:09, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

(<--) We could use {{Vertical images list}} for the three parliament/assembly buildings? --Jza84 |  Talk  10:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I've got IE8 which claims to be fully W3C compliant and which also displays white space. Also, if that white space were closed up, we'd get a text that was out of kilter with the images beside it. Why don't we use this style?

Seats of the devolved parliament and assemblies

The Scottish Parliament Building in Holyrood contains the Scottish Parliament, the national legislature of Scotland.   Parliament Buildings in Stormont is the seat of the Northern Ireland Assembly   The Senedd in Cardiff Bay is the seat of the National Assembly for Wales.

--Red King (talk) 11:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

There is something simillar to that at Greater_Manchester#Governance - a featured article. I'd have to see it in the article first, but it gets a tentative thumbs up from me. --Jza84 |  Talk  11:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Another possibility is the Fixbunching template. See Wikipedia:How to fix bunched-up edit links. --Red King (talk) 11:59, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Could we use a table? And use it to explain not just the buildings, but have a little about the governance of each country and exectutive? --Jza84 |  Talk  20:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] GDP figures.

Why is the UK’s GDP displayed only in USD? Also, The GDP figures on Scotland/England/Wales/Northern Ireland are all in USD and nothing else. Surely GBP should at least be there and USD in brackets afterwards? Or is this the only data available? --Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 19:09, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Auto-peer review

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 000 kilometres, use 000 kilometres, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 000 kilometres.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), when doing conversions, please use standard abbreviations: for example, miles -> mi, kilometers squared -> km², and pounds -> lb.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.^[?]
• Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) may be too long – consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per Wikipedia:Summary style.^[?]
• There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
  • is considered
  • might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).^[?]
• Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: honour (B) (American: honor), neighbour (B) (American: neighbor), meter (A) (British: metre), metre (B) (American: meter), defence (B) (American: defense), organise (B) (American: organize), recognise (B) (American: recognize), ization (A) (British: isation), isation (B) (American: ization), programme (B) (American: program ).
• Please provide citations for all of the {{fact}}s.^[?]
• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.^[?]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, --Jza84 |  Talk  01:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] RFC: calling Northern Ireland a "country"

An RFC has been opened inviting comment on how to describe Northern Ireland in that article. All comments are welcome. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 22:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

uk gdp was overtaken by italy some weeks ago... so change that absurd gdp...is smaller than italy... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/6418344/UK-economy-overtaken-by-Italy.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Italiacboy (talk • contribs) 13:13, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Third highest defense spending in the world?

I looked it up on the wiki article List of countries by military expenditures and there are two charts. Which one is more official? Because on one chart it lists the U.K. as having the 4th highest defense spending, and on the second charter (just below the first chart) it shows it as having the 3rd highest defense spending. --Mark0528 (talk) 17:25, 10 November 2009 (UTC)