Talk:United Kingdom

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Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Q1: Is the United Kingdom a "country"? A1: Reliable sources support the view that the United Kingdom is a single country. This view is shared with other major reputable encyclopedias. There has been a long-standing consensus to describe the UK in this way. Q2: Why isn't Great Britain listed as one of the names of the United Kingdom, in the lead? A2: See the article entitled "Terminology of the British Isles". Great Britain is the name of the largest island that the UK encompasses, and is not generally used in source material as the name of the country. Indeed, Britain 2001, the "official reference book" of the United Kingdom produced by the Office for National Statistics for "British diplomatic posts" says in its foreword (page vii): The term 'Britain' is sometimes used as a short way of expressing the full title of the country: the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (or more simply again, the United Kingdom or the UK). 'Great Britain' comprises England, Wales and Scotland only. There has been a long-standing consensus not to include Great Britain in the lead as an interchangable name of the state. Q3: Isn't the United Kingdom a "collection of countries"? A3: This is one of the most common questions raised on this talk page, but consistently, consensus goes against taking that approach. No major reputable source describes the UK in this way. However the history of the formation of the United Kingdom, supported by source material, highlights that England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales are "countries within a country". Please also refer to Q4. Q4: Are England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales countries? A4: This is the most frequent question raised by visitors to this talk page, and the issue which generates the most debate. However, as a result of a lack of a formal British constitution, and owing to a convoluted history of the formation of the United Kingdom, a variety of terms exist which are used to refer to England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.[1] Reliable and official sources support use of the word "countries", and this term has broadly won preference amongst the editing community (note, however, that a country is not the same as a sovereign state), but "constituent country" is also used; the community endeavours to achieve an atmosphere of neutrality, compromise, and camaraderie on this issue. See also Countries of the United Kingdom for more details about the terms that have been used to describe England, Nothern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. Q5: Why don't we refer to England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales as nations, or by the term "Home Nations"? A5: Widespread confusion surrounds the use of the word "nation". In standard British English, and in academic language, a nation is a social group of two or more people, and not a division of land. This is also the approach taken in the nation article, and across Wikipedia (for example, the English people and the Québécois are described as "nations", reflecting real world practice). The term Home Nations is generally used only in sporting contexts. It is not used in any major reputable sources outside of sport, and is not the approach taken by any other encyclopedia. Q6: Isn't Northern Ireland a province, and Wales a principality? A6: This view is supported by some sources, but the current consensus amongst the editing community is aligned to a greater body of work which describes both Northern Ireland and Wales as countries. However, the terms are not all mutually exclusive: a country can also be a principality or a province, and these terms are mentioned throughout Wikipedia as alternative names in afternotes. Q7: Why isn't the flag of Northern Ireland shown in the article? A7: Northern Ireland has not had its own unique, government sanctioned flag since its government was prorogued in 1972, and abolished in 1973 under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973. During official events, the British government uses the Union Flag — the flag of the United Kingdom — and this is the only flag used by the government in Northern Ireland. The consensus is to reflect this in the article with a note.

United Kingdom has been listed as a level-3 vital article in Geography. If you can improve it, please do. This page has been rated as B-Class.

This subject is featured in the Outline of the United Kingdom, which is incomplete and needs further development. That page, along with the other outlines on Wikipedia, comprise Wikipedia's Outline of Knowledge, which also serves as the table of contents or site map of Wikipedia.

	United Kingdom was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result May 3, 2006 Peer review Reviewed July 22, 2006 Good article nominee Listed September 30, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted February 11, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted October 3, 2008 Good article reassessment Delisted Current Status: Delisted good article

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

WikiProject United Kingdom (Rated B-Class, Top-importance) United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject UKUnited Kingdom articles United Kingdom portal v • d • e This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.  B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.  Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom (Rated B-Class, Top-importance) Politics of the United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomTemplate:WP UK PoliticsPolitics of the United Kingdom articles Politics portal v • d • e This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Politics of the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.  B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. This article has not yet been checked against the criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar and style: not checked Supporting materials: not checked Accessibility: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following code to the template call: | b1 <!--Referencing & citations--> = <yes/no> | b2 <!--Coverage & accuracy --> = <yes/no> | b3 <!--Structure --> = <yes/no> | b4 <!--Grammar & style --> = <yes/no> | b5 <!--Supporting materials --> = <yes/no> | b6 <!--Accessibility --> = <yes/no> assessing the article against each criterion.  Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Todo list: edit · history · watch · purge Here are some tasks you can do: Cleanup: Cleanup articles recorded in our Cleanup listing Stubs: Expand any of our stub articles. Infobox: Identify pages that need infoboxes by adding |needs-infobox=yes to the project banner. Add infoboxes to any articles appearing in this category. Other: Check this category for any articles requiring urgent attention. Add {{WP UK Politics}} to all talk pages within the project scope. Assess the quality of all our unassessed articles Identify pages that need images by adding |needs-picture=yes to the project banner. Find images for any articles listed in this category. Note: only free images are allowed for living people unless an argument can be made that their appearance has changed significantly since the time in which they were notable (see WP:NFC#Unacceptable use). WikiProject Countries (Rated B-Class) CountriesWikipedia:WikiProject CountriesTemplate:WPCountriescountry articles Geography portal v • d • e This article is within the scope of WikiProject Countries, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Countries on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.  B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Accessibility: criterion met WikiProject Countries To-do List: edit · history · watch · purge Help Reach FA Status: Afghanistan, Ecuador, Russia, United States of America, Bolivia, Botswana, Brazil, Saudi Arabia Review and Assess: All De-Stub: None Create: Every nation has a WikiPage, but please add to those in need. Create: more "Wildlife of ....." articles for all countries; See Wildlife of India for reference. Add Gini coefficient to each country. See: Wikipedia:Bot requests/Archive 11#Can anyone create a bot that take Gini Coefficients from a page and add them in each country ? Template talk:Infobox Country/Archive 5#Adding Income inequality / Gini Index Update all national militaries with {{Infobox National Military}}. Version 1.0 Editorial Team     (Rated B-Class) This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team. This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia. Additional information: B This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as top-Importance on the assessment scale. This article is included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection, or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version. Please maintain high quality standards and, if possible, stick to GFDL-compatible images. This article is a vital article. This article is one of the supplemental core articles, which every encyclopedia should have. WikiProject UK geography (Rated B-Class, Top-importance) UK geographyWikipedia:WikiProject UK geographyTemplate:WPUKgeoUK geography articles United Kingdom portal v • d • e This article falls within the scope of WikiProject UK geography, a user-group dedicated to building a comprehensive and quality guide to places in the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you wish to participate, share ideas or merely get tips you can join us at the project page where there are resources, to do lists and guidelines on how to write about settlements.  B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.  Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

edit · history · watch · refresh  To-do list for United Kingdom:
Here are some tasks you can do: Verify: Large parts of article are completely uncited - i.e. need inline citations - the last half of Football for instance, and almost all of the Culture, Geography and Christianity sections. There are many unattributed expressions of opinion in culture section. Publishers and last access dates need to be shown for all of the citations.

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v • d • e United Kingdom is a featured article on the Yiddish Wikipedia. You may be able to improve the article on this project by drawing content, media or references from that article. To get involved with featured articles in other languages, visit WikiProject Echo or its discussion page.

	The article United Kingdom has been mentioned by a media organization:
	"The 50 most-viewed Wikipedia articles in 2009 and 2008". The Daily Telegraph. August 17, 2009. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/6043534/The-50-most-viewed-Wikipedia-articles-in-2009-and-2008.html.

Archives
Sept. 2001 – August 2004 August 2004 – April 2005 April 2005 – November 2005 November 2005 – Feb. 2006 February 2006 – May 2006 Mid May 2006 - July 2006 July 2006 - November 2006 November 2006 - April 2007 April 2007 - July 2007 Aug 2007 - Dec 2007, part 1 Aug 2007 - Dec 2007, part 2 Aug 2007 - Dec 2007, part 3 Aug 2007 - Dec 2007, part 4 Aug 2007 - Dec 2007, part 5 Dec 2007 - May 2008 June 2008
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June 2005-March 2006 April 2006-May 2006
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Contents 1 Poll on Ireland article names 2 Muslim population 3 Nonsense line about the BBC 4 Pictures do not represent. 5 Sovereign state

[edit] Poll on Ireland article names

A poll has been set up at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ireland_Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names. This is a formal vote regarding the naming of the Ireland and Republic of Ireland and possibly the Ireland (disambiguation) pages. The result of this poll will be binding on the affected article names for a period of two years. This poll arose from the Ireland article names case at the Arbitration Committee and the Ireland Collaboration Project. The order that the choices appear in the list has been generated randomly. Voting will end at 21:00 (UTC) of the evening of 13 September 2009 (that is 22:00 IST and BST).

[edit] Muslim population

The muslim population is said in this article to be 2.8% based on a correct, but 8 years old (2001) source. In 2008 the muslim population was 4%[1]. -GabaG (talk) 03:34, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a good source. I would edit it in. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:28, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

It's actually already in the article, a but further down in the other religions section. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:27, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

I think that the figures only apply to Great Britain, not the whole of the UK. That's what it says if you scroll down to the bottom of the source article. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:56, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I've checked and they do. The source for the data is the Labour Force Survey and according to the user guide, the religion question used in Northern Ireland is different and Muslims are subsumed in an 'other' category. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:01, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

The ONS journal Population Trends Winter 2009 edition will feature an article on changes in religion, 2005-2008. The paper will be published next month.--Pondle (talk) 17:09, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

That's good to know although it may also rely on the LFS, in which case it will only cover Great Britain. I'm not aware of any other UK-wide surveys that could be used to generate such a statistic. Probably best to wait and see before updating the article. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:51, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

According to the current issue, the title of the forthcoming article is 'Changes in religion of the population of Great Britain, 2005–2008'. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:56, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I support using these reliable sources to mention the most up to date figure for the muslim population. We should continue mention the 2001 census figures but highlight trends and new figures / estimates. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:34, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem with that as long as we note that the new figures are not for the whole of the UK. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:45, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually I think the 2001 census is pretty faulty as a source for religion. According to this[2], almost 400,000 people (0.8%) said in the census their religion was "Jedi" from Star Wars based on some sort of chain letter joke. I think this really makes the "religion"-section of the census come into question for reliability, and should as agreed on, anyways be updated by newer material. -GabaG (talk) 22:49, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Btw, these 0.8% were probably irreligious anyways so it probably don't really matter for the numbers. But as my main point was, I think the information is outdated and should be replaced. -GabaG (talk) 22:59, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe so but, as the above discussion indicates, there may not be another UK-wide source to replace it with. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:15, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I see that we are now using the British Social Attitudes Survey for the religion statistics. The problem is that this also only covers England, Wales and Scotland. Northern Ireland has its own attitudes survey. See here. Since the census seems to be the only UK-wide source, can't we mention the census statistics first and then use the BSA and other sources to give a qualified but more up-to-date picture? Cordless Larry (talk) 10:57, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Nonsense line about the BBC

With reference to this line (in context)- "The British Empire expanded to its maximum size by 1921, gaining the League of Nations mandate over former German and Ottoman colonies after World War I. One year later, the BBC, the world's first large-scale international broadcasting network, was created."

The BBC was NOT created in 1922 as "the world's first large-scale international broadcasting network." In fact the BBC as we know it - a Crown chartered and non-commercial broadcasting corporation - was not created until the year 1927. What existed from 1922 to 1926 was a commercial company called the "British Broadcasting Company, Ltd.," which held a monopoly license from the British General Post Office because it was a consortium of mainly American dominated electrical manufacturing companies doing business in Britain.

Since this is an article about the United Kingdom and not about broadcasting or the BBC I suggest that this silly and totally incorrect line of nonsense is removed immediately. I would have done so but the article is locked. 70.247.124.116 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:57, 27 November 2009 (UTC).

Well I see that Red King edited the original BBC comment to imply that the BBC was still created in 1922 and that it went on to become a worldwide institution. The editor laughingly dismisses the matter by saying that the BBC just "growed and growed". Well, maybe that is okay for someone speaking up in class but it is not okay for something claiming to be a world class encyclopedia of knowledge based upon documented NPOV using existing facts with no original work!

The fact of the matter is that the BBC to which you refer did not start one year later - it started in 1927 because there was another entity, a commercial company that existed between 1922 and 1926 that was legally wound up - put out of business - ceased to be as in "dead parrot". This is not an article about the BBC and Wikipedia has two different and distinct entries for the BBC as a broadcasting operation. One is about the BBC company and the other is about the Crown corporation.

I trust that some editor out there understands that if Wikipedia is to have standards of factual editing, then they should be abided by all editors - especially editors who are editing locked articles! 70.247.124.116 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:02, 27 November 2009 (UTC).

BBC#History makes it quite clear that the BBC founded in 1927 very much had its roots in the BBC founded in 1922. Personally, I don't see a problem here and think your objections are pedantic. If people want the nitty gritty of the BBC's history, they should go to the BBC article, not here. However, I agree the sentence in question should probably be changed to avoid the implication that the BBC immediately became a "large-scale international broadcasting network" overnight. Perhaps:

One year later, the BBC, which would become the world's first large-scale international broadcasting network, was created. TastyCakes (talk) 17:38, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Or, One year later, the British Broadcasting Company, which would subsequently become the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC), the world's first large-scale international broadcasting network, was created. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:54, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

That seems ok, although it seems to suggest the BBC of 1927 immediately became a large scale international broadcasting network, which I'm not sure is true either... TastyCakes (talk) 18:23, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

One year later, the British Broadcasting Company, which subsequently became the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC), and went on to be the world's first large-scale international broadcasting network, was created? Cordless Larry (talk) 19:40, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Sure, seems ok to me. Getting a little wordy but I guess that's the problem with removing ambiguity... TastyCakes (talk) 20:54, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Done. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:53, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures do not represent.

Where is Northern Ireland and Wales' representation in terms of pictures? The millennium stadium is the only thing I can see and none whatsoever for Northern Ireland, this should definitely be fixed Flappychappy (talk) 15:53, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Sovereign state

In the lead it says the UK is a sovereign state. However, with the implementation of the Treaty of Lisbon, does the UK still fall under that classification? It's merely an argument, but some are claiming the UK has become a province of the EU. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:21, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The UK is still sovereign because the UK Parliament has the power to leave the EU at any time by repealing the law. As long as Parliament has this power (which would make anything that the EU declares null and void) then Parliament, and the UK, is still sovereign.--Willski72 (talk) 20:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

As are all other countries in the EU --Snowded ^TALK 20:18, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Is there not now an EU imposed formula through which secession must take place? (Akin to how a province may split from Canada; and Canadian provinces are not considered fully sovereign states.) --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Whatever the process, if the UK can leave unilaterally then they are still sovereign. DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Well apparently the Treaty of Lisbon "explicitly recognises for the first time the possibility for a Member State to withdraw from the Union".[3] As for the broader question, the UK is a member of the UN, has diplomatic recognition from other states, and also meets all the criteria for a sovereign state as defined by the Montevideo Convention. See here.--Pondle (talk) 22:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I see. I suppose I'm not clear on what makes a sovereign state cease to be sovereign; as the EU now has a full presidency, foreign service, and, I believe, the beginnings of a military, as well as requirements to be met for withdrawal, it appears that its members are no longer themselves sovereign, which is what the author of the piece I pointed to was arguing, and where I see more than one parallel between the EU and Canada. However, it also seems true that the UK - and other EU members/states/whatever - are still internationally considered sovereign. Confusing! --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 23:25, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Just to point out that the EU doesn't have a president. The new post is President of the European Council. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:30, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

There may be a 'process' for withdrawal, but a state can still withdraw unilaterally. The other states do not have to approve it. That means that the states are still sovereign - just like if you sign up for college, or a country club, there are procedures to go through to withdraw. They don't mean that you have suddenly become a slave to the college.

That is not the case with Canada. No province can withdraw from Canada unless certain conditions are met, and that (among other things) is why the provinces are not considered sovereign states. DJ Clayworth (talk) 03:42, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

We also probably shouldn't be using Daniel Hannan as a source for this type of argument because he has a clear political agenda. Best to leave it to constitutional experts. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:52, 13 December 2009 (UTC)