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Removal of important information - Palestine's status as a Provisional State
The League of Nations Covenant Article 22 . Para 4. "Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory."
The League of Nations Mandate for Palestine. First sentence "Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; "
Secondary Sources : [1] .... [2] ... talknic (talk) 07:26, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Classic WP:SYNTH. Neither document says Palestine was recognized as a provisional state or that every former Turkish territory administered by a mandate was a provisional state. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 08:47, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
NMMNG - I gave Secondary Sources. They both reflect the Primary Documents accurately - Mandate: for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations ... League of Nations Covenant Article 22 : "Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. Can you show where Palestine was exempted? ... talknic (talk) 12:10, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Palestine is ultimately a hard case with respect to the question of whether or not it was a provisional state. The reality is that Transjordan WAS organized into a provisional state. The remaining portion of Palestine was run directly by the British. Thankfully, it is not necessary for us to address this in the article. Certainly, however, in the context of Same Remo, Palestine was NOT treated as a provisional state (even though other territories quite explicitly were) Jsolinsky (talk) 11:23, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone ' Can you show where Palestine was exempted? ... talknic (talk) 12:10, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
I'd rather not make legal arguments on Wikipedia. That is the job of legal experts writing papers and books. Nonetheless, can be does NOT mean are. Additionally, the subject of that sentence is Certain communities which is plainly different from All communities in that in implies that SOME communities have not reached that stage of development.
In the San Remo declaration they said: "The High Contracting Parties agree that Syria and Mesopotamia shall, in accordance with the fourth paragraph of Article 22, Part I (Covenant of the League of Nations), be provisionally recognized as independent States". They most certainly could have said the same thing with respect to Palestine. They chose not to, instead saying "The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory, to be selected by the said Powers."
I note further that the resolution explicitly says that "The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 8, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." If San Remo actually recognized a provisional state in Palestine (it didn't), it was a Jewish state. Jsolinsky (talk) 13:18, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - A) Under the Mandate it was to be a Palestinian state. Jews, Muslims, Christian, Arabic et al would become Palestinian citizens. The Mandate Article 7 Read it.
You are confused. The San Remo resolution is not the same document as the Mandate. The San Remo resolution makes the Mandatory power responsible for establishing a National Home for the Jewish people in Palestine. Jsolinsky (talk) 00:30, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
B)Re - "could have said the same thing with respect to Palestine" It would have to cite itself. You're citing the Mandate for Palestine, where it talks about the Mandates for Syria and Mesopotamia. Also Class A Mandates. The Palestine Mandate was a Class A Mandate and The Mandates
NO. I am not citing the Mandate. I am citing the San Remo resolution. When we discuss what was agreed upon at the San Remo conference in the article, we should either be using the San Remo resolution or some reputable scholarship which specifically addresses the subject of the San Remo Conference. We should not be referring to the Mandate for Palestine which did not even exist at the time. Jsolinsky (talk) 00:30, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - Point taken re San Remo/Mandate however, "It was agreed – (a) To accept the terms of the Mandates Article as given below with reference to Palestine, on the understanding that there was inserted in the process-verbal an undertaking by the Mandatory Power that this would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine;
This section is about the French legal protectorate in Jerusalem (you need to read the whole (a)). Below, in the section identifying what will happen in Palestine, it says that non-Jewish communities will not surrender any of their rights. Section (a) says that despite this, the French religious protectorate in Jerusalem will still come to an end. See, for example, http://bcrfj.revues.org/index3502.htmlJsolinsky (talk) 11:18, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Can you tell me how the Mandates for Syria, Mesopotamia and Palestine are different?
I am not an expert. But clearly at the San Remo conference they were treated as being different; Clearly only the Palestinian mandate included provisions for establishing a Jewish National Home; Clearly only the non-Transjordan part of Palestine was run directly by the British. And clearly Palestine was the last of these three mandates to be ended. Many books have been written on the Mandates. You are better off consulting with them. Jsolinsky (talk) 11:18, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
C)"How has State lands been defined and delimited?" ... "In thirty-two legal actions the Courts decided in favour of the Government of Palestine against persons claiming ownership of State land" [3] ... talknic (talk) 16:23, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Nobody needs to show you where Palestine is "exempted". You need to show where it is included. Neither of the two documents you are trying to SYNTH says Palestine is to be considered a provisional state. One says that "certain communities" (not all of them) "can be" recognized (not must be, or are recognized) as provisional states. The other document says nothing about recognition as a provisional state. Synthesis of the two documents to reach a conclusion is not allowed. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:24, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia:What_SYNTH_is_not: If something is obvious to anyone who reads and understands the sources that are supposed to support it, then it's not SYNTH. ← ZScarpia 22:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Your point? It's quite clear it's not "obvious to anyone who reads and understands the sources". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:59, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Can you explain how Talknic's sources can reasonably be interpreted other than the way that Talknic has read them? ← ZScarpia 00:14, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
I believe I did so above. I would also suggest you read the whole LoN Covenant article talknic is selectively quoting a single paragraph from. This is a clear example of SYNTH. We're not talking about comparing the sizes of the sun and the moon here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:38, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
@ZScarpia: It is easy to explain how other interpretations are not just possible, but virtually certain.
The LON covenant that talknic cites states that CERTAIN communities can be provisionally recognized. This plainly suggests that the remaining communities will not be provisionally recognized.
The San Remo resolution explicitly names two provisional states, then immediately afterwards states that Palestine will be entrusted to a mandatory. By common rules of statutory construction in most English speaking countries, this implies that the statutory intent of the San Remo resolution is that Palestine was NOT a provisional state.
Also there is the practical matter of reality. The named provisional states as well as Transjordan actually functioned as provisional states during the period between the wars. Palestine (with the exception of Transjordan) was administered directly by the British. In Talknic's examples of Palestine signing documents as a state, it a British functionary who signs.
Finally, there is the absence of any credible source concurring with Talknic. The legal implications of Palestinian history have been very extensively studied. A wide variety of absurd viewpoints have been memorialized in book form. If not one of these explicitly agrees with him, then its probably not worth mentioning in this article.
In summary, there is virtually no support for Talknic's interpretation. "obvious to anyone who reads and understands the sources" is clearly not a bar that can be passed. Jsolinsky (talk) 00:55, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky & NMMNG - Three questions - Palestine was not a class A Mandate? Syria and Mesopotamia were not also under Mandates? Only Palestine was under a Mandate?
Palestine was a class A Mandate. As I said before, it is complicated. In practical effect, Transjordan WAS a provisional state, whereas the remainder of the Mandate was not. This is obviously different from the other Mandates in which substantially the entire territory was given over to a provisional government.Jsolinsky (talk) 12:09, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - "there is the absence of any credible source concurring with Talknic." A false accusation. There's two Secondary Sources and the existing Wikipedia entries on types of Mandates ...
If you want to add something to the article saying that Palestine was a provisional state, you need a source that unambiguously states this. I'm not saying you haven't provided sources. But they don't directly address what you are saying, and you are not free to apply your own legal reasoning on top of whatever documents you find. That must be left to other external sources. Jsolinsky (talk) 12:09, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
"In Talknic's examples of Palestine signing documents as a state, it a British functionary who signs." ... They're the same for each
"The representatives of Turkey, Iraq, Transjordan, Palestine, the State of Syria and the High Commissariat of the French Republic, being duly authorised, have drawn up the present Agreement in a single copy, to which they have appended their signatures" [4] ... talknic (talk) 04:01, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Look again. The signers for Turkey, Iraq, Transjordan and Syria all have Turkish or Arabic names. The signer for Palestine is a Brit. Jsolinsky (talk) 12:09, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - I suggest you look further than just Arabic or British looking names.
At the top: "THE GOVERNMENTS OF PALESTINE, TRANSJORDAN, IRAQ, TURKEY and SYRIA, deeming it of advantage... etc etc ... have decided to conclude an Agreement to this effect, and have agreed on the following provisions : Article I. The High Contracting Parties ..... Article II. The Office shall operate under the authority and control of a Committee composed of delegates of the Contracting States"[5] ... talknic (talk) 15:57, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Nobody denies that there was a government of Palestine at the time of this agreement. Of course there was. My point is that it was run by the British. Its a historical fact that instead of establishing a new state in Palestine (as was done in all the other territories party to that agreement), the British ran it themselves. You can't rebut that with a few out of context words from a treaty that the British administration in Palestine signed for themselves. In general, scanning historical documents for words which agree with your preconceived notions is not likely to produce useful contributions. Jsolinsky (talk) 16:22, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - "My point is that it was run by the British." It seems to have slipped your attention that the other territories which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire were also under Mandates ... talknic (talk) 06:22, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky -- "The LON covenant that talknic cites states that CERTAIN communities can be provisionally recognized. This plainly suggests that the remaining communities will not be provisionally recognized." It says this : "Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory."...It then goes on to describe those who cannot be provisionally recognized....
Paragraphs 5. "Other peoples.." & 6. "There are territories, such as ... "
The Mandate says this: "Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire..." ... talknic (talk) 04:25, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure why you don't get this. CERTAIN communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire implies that SOME communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire are not included. Otherwise, the authors would have simply said "All communities" or even, simply, "communities" . 12:09, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
As shown above both the Covenant and the Mandate say formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire. The Covenant goes on to describe those communities who were not afforded provisional recognition in Paragraphs 5 & 6. Also shown above ... talknic (talk) 14:53, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't really know or care too much about finely-detailed exegetical interpretation of the original Mandate document -- but one thing that I'm absolutely clear about is that words such as "Palestinian" cannot be used without explanation in a misleadingly equivocating or anachronistic way, in which they convey a very different meaning to the uninitiated reader of 2011 than was originally intended in 1919... AnonMoos (talk) 10:22, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
AnonMoos - "Palestinian citizenship". It's verbatim in the Mandate - Article 7 ... talknic (talk) 14:53, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
However, in the 20th-century before the 1950's the meaning of the word "Palestinian" was not restricted to refer to almost exclusively to Arabs, but rather was commonly used to refer to both Jews and Arabs. The Jerusalem Post was known as the "Palestine Post" as late as 1952, while the majority of the populace of the United States and many European countries really did not become familiar with the meaning of the word "Palestinian" as restrictively referring almost exclusively to Arabs until the 1960s. Therefore the word "Palestinian" had a very different meaning in 1919 than it would have for most readers in 2011, and there can be no confusion, or glossing over the differences between the 2011 meaning and the 1919 meaning. If the word is to be used in its 1919 meaning in any Wikipedia article (for example, in a direct quote), then it must be given a proper context or explanation to avoid confusion -- and if I ever see any intentionally or unintentionally confusing uses of the word (where the old meaning is not properly distinguished from the new meaning), then I will seek to clarify or remove them with great vigor and alacrity... AnonMoos (talk) 16:39, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
AnonMoos - "Palestinian citizenship". Verbatim, in the Mandate, Article 7. All citizens of Palestine were Palestinian citizens ... talknic (talk) 13:09, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
To expand, in 1919, Jews were Palestinians. The vast majority of "Palestinian" cultural institutions were actually Jewish. For example, the Palestine Symphony Orchestra founded in 1936 became the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra. Today Palestinian specifically implies NOT JEWISH. Jsolinsky (talk) 12:09, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - Yes. However, we are not talking about today. We are discussing the Mandate and LoN Covenant in respect to the Partition Plan. The Mandate says "Palestinian citizenship" ... talknic (talk) 14:53, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
I think I'm mostly done debating Talknic. Let me make a final, and critical point:
Aside from correctness, which is of course important, there is another critical issue to be considered. Does additional material improve the article? The background section section is intended to give the reader background necessary to understand the Partition Plan. Will the additional material enhance the understanding of a first time reader?
I actually think that legal issues can be important, but the history of this article shows that many users have attempted to add legal claims in an attempt to bolster particular legal arguments that they wished to make. The result (as seen in the Mandate section of this article from the beginning of October) was an incoherent mess. The page was full of legal arguments, often with proper citations, which were completely divorced from the surrounding text. This was very much to the detriment of the article.
I suggest that the following principles be adhered to when adding legal arguments to this page:
The purpose of the legal argument should be clearly identified in the text. Even a first time reader should be able to figure out why the legal argument is relevant to the article's subject matter, and what the legal argument is saying.
No interpretation of any legal text should be permitted unless directly supported by a reputable source. As the recent debates demonstrate, it is exceedingly easy for lay readers to read their own beliefs into the text of these often obtuse documents.
With respect specifically to the question of "Was Palestine a Provisional State?", I say this it doesn't matter and is irrelevant. To make it relevant, we would have to add yet another legal argument explaining how Palestine's status at the time of partition was relevant to what happened in the main body of the article. If it actually were relevant, we would certainly be able to find a book (or more likely a dozen) directly addressing the matter and providing us with quality source material to explain the connection without resorting to a piecemeal arrangement of the documents themselves.Jsolinsky (talk) 12:09, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - Interesting but entirely an un-sourced opinion. Wikipedia already has guidelines BTW. The purpose of Wikipedia is to inform readers who might have no knowledge what so ever on the issue. The status of Palestine at the time the Partition Plan was adopted, is integral to the issue of Partition. It was the foundation of the Arab States legal argument against Partition without consultation of the inhabitants of Palestine, per the LoN Covenant and later the UN Charter on self determination ... talknic (talk) 14:53, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
A section on arguments against the legitimacy of the partition (ideally separated from the historical recitations) would be perfectly reasonable. But PLEASE avoid using your own synthesis. Opponents of the partition have said a great deal on the issue, and it should be easy to describe their arguments in their own words without any Synthesis or Original research. Obviously such a section would include the counter arguments, but feel free to leave that to somebody else if you are unfamiliar with them. Jsolinsky (talk) 15:54, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - "A section on arguments against the legitimacy of the partition" I agree. However, the issue is not the legitimacy of the partition ... talknic (talk) 12:36, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes, Wikipedia has guidelines. They quite clearly say you can't SYNTH sources to reach your own OR conclusions, as you're doing here. The fact you are once again unable to find reliable third party sources to support your ideas should be telling you something (although I doubt it will, unfortunately). No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:41, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
NMMNG -- It was a Secondary Source, citing Article 7 of the Mandate. The Mandate says "The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine. " The nationality of Palestinian citizens in Palestine was to be Palestinian ... talknic (talk) 01:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
NOTED: AnonMoos revert on top of NMMNG's revert (rather like a tag team).
AnonMoos claiming "Palestinian" in a deliberately confusing way, in which the 1919 terminology will be understood by modern readers very differently than its originally-untended 1919 meaning." The Mandate was written in 1922. It has the word "Palestinian" as in "Palestinian citizenship". BTW Rather hard to go back in time and change wording of the Mandate ... talknic (talk) 15:24, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
You are missing the big picture. The goal here is to produce an optimal article. Something can be well sourced, and still not make it a better article. I've removed a great many such facts recently. I'm sure I missed some others. (I'm also sure I removed some things that should not have been removed. I hope there are very few such items.) As to NMMNG and AM, I agree with them. Its probably worth taking a moment to consider whether or not the three of us have a point. Jsolinsky (talk) 15:54, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - "the big picture" and an "optimal article" should include the status of Palestine at the time the Partition plan was adopted. Palestine was under a Class A Mandate, as were all the territories which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire
Re - Your numerous edits... What relevance have they to this particular issue? Re - consensus. Can be seen at work here ... talknic (talk) 19:25, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Talknic, I really don't see how I can be "tag teaming" with anybody, when I mostly don't know and don't care too much about abstract metaphysical speculative hypothetical exegesis of the original Mandate documents (as opposed to abstract metaphysical speculative hypothetical exegesis of the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, which I have made it part of my work on Wikipedia to counteract). AnonMoos (talk) 16:46, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone actually have a valid reason why the status of Palestine and Palestinian citizenship should not be mentioned in an article about the Partition of Palestine? Especially as it applied equally to Arab and Jewish Palestinians! ... talknic (talk) 14:21, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
What you call the "status" is actually a bizarre legal argument that you have been pushing here for more than a month, without any support from other editors, based on your own readings of the texts involved. That is not what Wikipedia is for. As your own sources point out, Palestine was ruled by Britain before the partition. If I don't read any talknic responses to this, it is because the voluminous discussion that has already occurred on the issue demonstrates that such discussion is not useful. Jsolinsky (talk) 15:02, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky = you have no actual valid reason. "based on your own readings of the texts involved" Based on the Secondary Sources I've provided actually ... talknic (talk) 05:41, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Consensus based on continually moving goal posts seems to show a biased determination to keep certain WP:RS and relevant information out of the article. So, AGAIN: Does anyone have a valid reason why either the status of Palestine and/or Palestinian citizenship for Jews and Arabs should not be mentioned in an article about the Partition of Palestine, wherein all Palestinians were Palestinian citizens? If not, I intend to restore, citing the secondary sources ... talknic (talk) 07:07, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
You do not get to decide which objections are valid. The obvious consensus (talknic vs everyone else, as usual) is that this should not be included. Feel free to open an RfC if you want more input. If you restore the information against consensus it will be removed. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 07:17, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
"The obvious consensus".. "is that this should not be included".. based on FALSE premises?
False premise:"Classic WP:SYNTH. Neither document says Palestine was recognized as a provisional state or that every former Turkish territory administered by a mandate was a provisional state" + "Synthesis of the two documents to reach a conclusion is not allowed."
The first Secondary Source alone, which you seem not to have bothered to read, does in fact[6]. It gives an accurate description of the official document, wherein those territories with provisional status are class A mandates and all are former to the Ottoman Empire. The description of the Class A mandates are then followed by a description of those who are not Class A Mandates and not afforded the same provisional status. I've already shown this in the discussion.
The 2nd Secondary Source [7] says the same. One could use either source. It's not WP:SYNTH
False premise: You then try "I would also suggest you read the whole LoN Covenant article" The whole 'LoN Covenant article' (Article 22) - wherein we find "certain communities" described as "formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire"... It does not name any exceptions or in any way differentiate between the communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire..
Nor does it say, as it does for the South Pacific Islands, "certain of the South Pacific Islands"
ARTICLE 22. (my bold)
To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.
The best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations who by reason of their resources, their experience or their geographical position can best undertake this responsibility, and who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as Mandatories on behalf of the League.
The character of the mandate must differ according to the stage of the development of the people, the geographical situation of the territory, its economic conditions and other similar circumstances.
Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.
Other peoples, especially those of Central Africa, are at such a stage that the Mandatory must be responsible for the administration of the territory under conditions which will guarantee freedom of conscience and religion, subject only to the maintenance of public order and morals, the prohibition of abuses such as the slave trade, the arms traffic and the liquor traffic, and the prevention of the establishment of fortifications or military and naval bases and of military training of the natives for other than police purposes and the defence of territory, and will also secure equal opportunities for the trade and commerce of other Members of the League.
There are territories, such as South-West Africa and certain of the South Pacific Islands, which, owing to the sparseness of their population, or their small size, or their remoteness from the centres of civilisation, or their geographical contiguity to the territory of the Mandatory, and other circumstances, can be best administered under the laws of the Mandatory as integral portions of its territory, subject to the safeguards above mentioned in the interests of the indigenous population.
In every case of mandate, the Mandatory shall render to the Council an annual report in reference to the territory committed to its charge.
The degree of authority, control, or administration to be exercised by the Mandatory shall, if not previously agreed upon by the Members of the League, be explicitly defined in each case by the Council.
A permanent Commission shall be constituted to receive and examine the annual reports of the Mandatories and to advise the Council on all matters relating to the observance of the mandates.
False premise:"The fact you are once again unable to find reliable third party sources to support your ideas " The sources given at the head of the discussion ARE Secondary Sources. I.e., third party sources. Now, exactly what valid objections do you have? ... talknic (talk) 14:37, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
False premise:"Nobody needs to show you where Palestine is "exempted". You need to show where it is included" If it wasn't excluded, it wasn't 'exempted' ... talknic (talk) 14:45, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
As usual, I'm done trying to discuss this issue with you. If another editor supports the change you want to make, I'll be happy to discuss with them. In the meanwhile, you have no consensus. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:21, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
NMMNG .. No consensus based on false premises is, to quote you, "bullshit" ... talknic (talk) 07:13, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
I think Talknic's position is very clear and logical and am supportive of the proposal. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:28, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
What is the proposal? Itsmejudith (talk) 13:06, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Itsmejudith - to restore information informing readers of Palestine's status as a Provisional State into an article on the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine ... talknic (talk)
To sum up my views:
1. Talknic appears to propose a statement to the effect that: "Palestine was a provisional state"
2. His basis for this is a combination of various mandatory era documents.
3. This is classic SYNTH
4. If there is a RS out there which says "Palestine was a provisional state", that can be used as a source for that statement.
5. If, out of hundreds of books analyzing the legal situation in Palestine there is no book that explicitly says this, it does not belong in our article.
6. There is no reason why we can not restrict our legal analysis to the specific arguments that have already appeared in print.
7. This SYNTH does not occur in a vacuum. There is overwhelming evidence that there was no Provisional state in the area which was partitioned by the subject of this article. Hundreds of RS characterize the area partitioned by the subject of this article as being run or controlled by the British. If we say that there was a provisional state (other than Transjordan) inside of mandatory Palestine, the obvious follow up question is: what was the provisional state? Where is its Wikipedia article? Jsolinsky (talk) 15:15, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - The LoN Covenant came before the Mandate for Palestine, the Mandate for Palestine re-iterates the LoN Covenant. The Mandate for Palestine says quite specifically it gave "effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations". Confirmation, not SYNTH.
"If there is a RS out there which says "Palestine was a provisional state", that can be used as a source for that statement." OK!! Thanks!! It was given at the top of the discussion [8]. It was a Secondary Source in the version reverted under the false premise of it being a Primary Source.
Neither The LoN Covenant or the Mandate for Palestine differentiated between the territories formerly belonging to the Ottoman Empire. The Covenant DID differentiate between the territories of "Other Peoples"
"There is overwhelming evidence that there was no Provisional state in the area which was partitioned by the subject of this article." There are an overwhelming number of Secondary Sources that do not accurately reflect the Primary Sources they cite. To be RS on a particular point Secondary Sources must accurately reflect the Primary Sources they cite ... talknic (talk) 16:53, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
The link you gave points to a book about refugees. Can you quote the passage where it says that Palestine at the time of partition was a provisional state? Jsolinsky (talk) 17:13, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - At the time of the Partition Plan (to say "at the time of partition" presumes partition took place), the Mandate for Palestine gave "effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations". Try reading the 5th sentence in the source ... talknic (talk) 03:29, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
You can not disqualify hundreds of reliable sources because they conflict with your personal interpretation of the covenant of the League of Nations. The covenant means what reliable sources tell us it means. Jsolinsky (talk) 17:13, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - Correct I cannot. However, WP:RS"Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context"
" because they conflict with your personal interpretation" Secondary Sources are not my opinion
"The covenant means what reliable sources tell us it means." No the LoN Covenant says precisely what it means. Secondary Sources must be WP:RS"based upon the evidence" from "primary sources"
The first source talknic provides above (chapter by Farah in an edited collection) supports the idea that Palestine was a provisional state in the Covenant of the League of Nations. It doesn't say anything about whether it was a provisional state at the time of partition. I think brief mention can be made in the background section so long as no implication is made about the post WW2 state of affairs. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:34, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Itsmejudith - "It doesn't say anything about whether it was a provisional state at the time of partition." A) 'at the time of partition' presumes partition took place. The article is about the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine. B) The Mandate for Palestine gave "effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations" C) "so long as no implication is made about the post WW2 state of affairs" The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine Nov 1947 was post WW2 ... talknic (talk) 03:29, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Thank you. I found it. Farah writes that the LoN provisionally recognized the Palestinians. In the analysis, the word "certain", from the covenant is dropped. This is because he doesn't cite the covenant. He cites Ibrahim Abu-Lughod, in his time "the leading Arab academic activist in North America", who makes the word change here: [9].
HOWEVER, Farah (and also Abu-Lughod) isn't saying that the Mandate for Palestine provisionally recognized a Palestinian state at all. He is saying that the LoN covenant recognized a Palestinian state, and the mandate was inconsistent with this.
Still, this is clearly a RS for the fact that Arab activists have interpreted the LoN covenant as provisionally recognizing Palestine. I don't have a problem with including this. I believe that the article already mentions that Zionists interpreted the promised of a Jewish National Homeland in a similar fashion. Jsolinsky (talk) 18:12, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - "Thank you. I found it" in Snippet View? Please join the discussion [10]
Re - 'certain' see the RFC re - the precision of the wording of the LoN Covenant. There is no differentiation between the certain communities of the former Ottoman Empire. None were specifically exempted. Whereas for 'Other peoples' there were specific exemptions.
"Farah (and also Abu-Lughod) isn't saying that the Mandate for Palestine provisionally recognized a Palestinian state.." Of course they aren't, it was not within the mandate for the Mandatory Power. The mandate for the Mandatory Power was to give "effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations", not grant the Provisional status already granted in the Covenant ... talknic (talk) 03:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't think that a fringe theory (we have two people saying it and hundreds of other sources discussing the issue that make no mention) which basically boils down to that Palestine was not a provisional state at the time of the Partition Plan belongs in this article. This is classic UNDUE. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:50, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
No More Mr Nice Guy - Noted your un-sourced opinion. BTW these 'hundreds of other' un-named sources, are they WP:RS"based upon the evidence" from "primary source(s)" .... "Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context" ... talknic (talk) 03:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
You keep repeating that as if it will give your opinion more weight than people who actually know what they're talking about, have relevant academic degrees and have have been published by reputable publishing houses. In other words, and at the risk of repeating myself for the 50th time, your interpretation of primary sources carries no weight whatsoever here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 04:02, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
No More Mr Nice Guy - "You keep repeating that as if it will give your opinion more weight than people who actually know what they're talking about" It's WP:RS policy. Nothing to do with me, so save your personal comments for somewhere else. "have relevant academic degrees" You have no idea of what qualifications I hold .... " and have have been published by reputable publishing houses." They're still required to adhere to WP criteria, be "based upon the evidence" from "primary source(s)" .... "Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context"
"and at the risk of repeating myself for the 50th time, your interpretation of primary sources carries no weight whatsoever here. " Secondary Sources actually. You false accusations carry no weight and have the same place as personal comments. Not here. There are numerous Primary Sources you haven't bothered to object to, even on prompting.
"hundreds of other sources discussing the issue that make no mention) which basically boils down to that Palestine was not a provisional state at the time of the Partition Plan belongs in this article. " Now that is SYNTH. If they don't mention it doesn't mean it ain't so ... talknic (talk) 18:25, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Map and Switching
NMMNG has questioned whether Haiti, Liberia and the Philippines switched their votes, in response to the adding back of the voting map created many years ago. There are a huge number of sources stating that these three countries switched their votes - it is not a difficult thing to prove, because all three countries made speeches in the days before the vote stating their opposition. I have added a plethora of WP:RS to the article to clarify. Oncenawhile (talk) 09:22, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
A newspaper published before the vote can't be a source for the result of the vote, unless they could see into the future. Nobody "switched" votes since there was only one vote. I am not questioning that some countries were planning to vote a certain way but actually voted the opposite. I'm questioning the wording, but mostly I'm questioning this unique map with "vote results" that includes information that is not a result of a vote. Can you show me a couple more articles that use this particular format?
Also, I recommend you read WP:BRD and keep in mind this article is under discretionary sanctions. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:15, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
This was the issue that attracted me to my recent period of active editing. The old article misled me into believing that countries had actually cast votes against, and then switched in favor.
1. You can't switch your vote, unless you first cast your vote in the opposite direction. That never happened. Changing ones mind, often due to deals and pressure, is a common (if not universal) aspect of voting bodies. In no other cases does Wikipedia say that people or countries "switched" their votes unless they first cast a vote in the opposite direction. This is even more true in the case of a body where nations are voting, and the representatives who are speaking on their behalf are changing.
2. There are many more countries than just these three that are alleged to have changed their minds... even in the last three days. What is the criteria for saying that the other countries did NOT change their vote during that period of time?
3. We now have a text section in which the precise details of efforts to change the votes of individual countries can be explained. There is no need for us to use the unfortunate "switch" language, when we can choose to be as precise as necessary. (BTW, Haiti needs more detail if you have time). Jsolinsky (talk) 12:25, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
"last minute shifting of three votes" (Chowdhuri);
"Liberia, which voted no in committee, said yes in the final roll call" (Time Magazine);
"Liberia - like Haiti and the Philippines, which also had opposed partition in the first instance - changed its vote to yes" (Hadawi);
"Both Haiti and Liberia reversed their stand and voted for partition. So did the Philippines" (Shadid);
"Included in the countries that switched their votes from Nov 25 to Nov 29 to provide the two-thirds majority were Liberia, the Philippines and Haiti" (Quigley);
"several adjournments were arranged to give the Zionists and American officialdom an opportunity to exert pressure on China, Ethiopia, Greece, Haiti, Liberia, and the Philippines, all of which had declared their intention to vote against the partition" (Kassim);
"Greece, Haiti and the Philippines announced on Wednesday [26 Nov] that they would oppose partition" (New York Times / Montreal Gazette)
It is clear from these sources (and more) that however you describe it, the changed actions of these countries was notable.
Countries in question had previously officially declared a different view to that in their final vote. The article does not state this at the moment.
Although there were other countries who were pressured / changed their stance, it appears to be the consensus of the WP:RS that the countries of Liberia, Haiti and the Philippines were the key to the required majority - particularly since they were the only ones that switched from no to yes (China and Ethiopia abstained and Greece voted no). The article does not state this at the moment.
I will have another attempt at making the map work with better wording to try to address your points.
There was no changed action. There was one action, which was the vote, and there were decelerations beforehand, which are already noted quite prominently in this article.
A map of the result of a vote should show the result of the vote and that's it. Can you show me another article with a map like the one you want to insert here? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:03, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
NMMNG, the threat in your reversion edit comment unjustified in light of my post above and my edit comment. Your threatening behavior is not acceptable. Can I suggest you refamiliarize yourself with WP:NPA and WP:AGF. We will be able to resolve this if you behave constructively instead of aggressively. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:15, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
I second this. Jsolinsky (talk) 22:28, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
It was not a threat, it was a warning. You made a change to the article, which was reverted. You immediately reinserted your change. That was reverted as well. The next day you made a slight cosmetic change that didn't address the issues two editors raised, while discussion was ongoing. Instead of pointing me to NPA or AGF as if there was a personal attack or expecting you to adhere to BRD says something about good faith, I suggest you familiarize yourself with the discretionary sanctions that apply to all IP articles. I'm not going to go into a war of attrition with you. If you try forcing this unprecedented approach to maps about votes into this article one more time, against proper editing protocol, you will be reported. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:48, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Oncenawhile, the same can be said for most voting bodies. Some people change their minds at the last moment under intense pressure. I can think of numerous recent examples (Obamacare, the New York State Gay Marriage Vote). In my opinion, it is not proper to indicate these last minute changes in any roll call or map. A yes is a yes. A no is a no. It _IS_ appropriate to indicate any prominent instances of last minute changes in the text describing the vote. That is what we presently have (although more detail is warranted; Haiti needs more info, and I just corrected an error in Liberia this morning). Is there any other place on Wikipedia where a roll call or roll call map lists the last minute changers separately?
I would propose the following rule of thumb: roll calls (and graphical representations of roll calls) should adopt the terminology and results of the body doing the voting. To do otherwise is to risk miss-communicating the results of the actual vote (which is what actually happened to me when I was reading this article). Again, we have the opportunity in the surrounding text to provide color explaining why the votes came out the way they did.
I am also not clear on what value we deliver to our readers by including a map. Whether we single out last minute changes or not, what information are readers supposed to glean, that the roll call does not provide?
I see these as two separate questions: 1. Do we break out vote changers in the roll call? 2. Do we include a map?
If we include a map, it should match the roll call in my opinion, even if the consensus differs from my opinion on how to handle question #1. Jsolinsky (talk) 22:19, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Hi Jsolinsky, thanks for your thoughtful comments. To my mind each article about a vote is different, and should be considered based on what is notable in WP:RS. We are all agreed that the changes here are notable, but how to describe them? To my mind it's a question of how clear we want to be about it.
I could live without the map if we make the roll call and text much clearer, including links to the WP:RS above and clarity on the relevant previous public declarations which different from the final votes.
Having said that, a map of this type is an aide to summarize notable information in an easy to digest way. Each voting-map-related-article is different, and the information above is highly notable and relevant to this one. Whatever we decide, our goal should be to make it easy for the reader to understand. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:33, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
I think that the reason to include a map is if there is something geographical that can be seen in the map, but not from the roll call. For example, the US Presidential Electoral Votes are commonly represented on a map, because this makes it easy to see regional trends (the solid south, etc.). I don't think that a map is able to add that sort of value in this case.
I am definitely in favor of identifying countries whose public statements reflected a change in position (or who were otherwise subjected to pressure). We should list more countries, and add detail to those countries that have already been listed. This gives us the best of both worlds. A precise roll call AND detailed individual country explanations. Jsolinsky (talk) 22:48, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
OK great it sounds like we have pretty similar views. One final point on the map - quite apart from the switching, the map does provide a very good feel for the geographic clustering of votes that the roll call doesn't give (e.g. most Against votes were in the MENA region). The map was stable in this form for just under three years before it was recently removed, and I think that is one of the reasons. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:55, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
The map is good and useful. One error should be fixed though. It shows Transjordon in black along with Palestine, but by 1947 Transjordan was an independent nation. It should be colored grey as a nation that didn't belong to the UN at the time. (Incidentally, what I don't like in that section of the article is all the flags.) Zerotalk 23:59, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
The map should be re-instated . One picture is better than all the flags. If the map was clickable all the better. The issue of colouring for Jordan / Palestine can be an update. Reverting is un-necessary when only partial issues are of concern ... talknic (talk) 21:30, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Based on the above discussion, will anyone object strongly if the map is reinstated? In the meantime, I have considered Zero's point about all the flags looking a mess and have organised them into regions - to me it is much more intuitive now but grateful for comments. I have also considered Jsolinsky's point that it wasn't just the three countries referred to above - actually there are six names which are consistently referred to in the WP:RS. I have denoted these with a "**". Oncenawhile (talk) 09:27, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Please note that NMMNG has removed the proposed addition of this note. Apparently it is undue weight, despite the fact that a large number of WP:RS refer to the issue and the six names. This appears to be a typical case of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Grateful for others' comments. Oncenawhile (talk) 09:47, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Once, I would still characterize my objections to denoting some votes as being switched as strong... either in the map or in the roll call. My objections to having a map at all, or to organizing the votes by region are weak. Clearly other editors find some value in that, even though I don't. Jsolinsky (talk) 12:54, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Does one viewpoint, cited over and over, actually substantiate that viewpoint?
Jimbo Wales "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts" However:
Repeating a viewpoint numerous times isn't actually other viewpoints substantiating the original. It's only repetition of the one viewpoint ... talknic (talk) 06:05, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Not sure exactly what that's aimed at, but maybe you could start asking yourself why it is that so much of what you want to add to the article represents views which seem to be unique to yourself alone and/or which are supported only by citations of primary source documents from the 1940s (or 1910s!)... AnonMoos (talk) 06:28, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
AnonMoos - A) If twenty thousand sources all cite & lead back to one viewpoint, it is only one viewpoint. They are not substantiating that view point, they are simply repeating it. If only two other separate view points are cited, (even in one source), they are in fact the majority, not the twenty thousand repetitions
B) As the entirety of my dialogue under the heading until now only consists of one paragraph, which doesn't contain ANY sources what so ever, your unsubstantiated accusation is quite simply false. Incessant personal attacks and stupid lies have no place in Wikipedia. Please address the subject in good faith ... thx ... talknic (talk) 21:26, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Whatever -- I was referring to your well-known past patterns of behavior. I very clearly warned you many months ago that abstract metaphysical hypothetical speculative philosophico-legal exegesis of the November 29th 1947 partition plan leads to hundreds of thousands of bytes of somewhat redundant and repetitive discussions on Wikipedia article talk pages without ever leading to significant improvement of any Wikipedia article. You chose to disregard this well-intentioned, justifiable, and factually true warning, and so here we are. P.S. If your remarks don't contain any sources, then they're "unsourced" (as you're constantly accusing my talk page comments of being)! AnonMoos (talk) 03:00, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
"Whatever" ? WP:ETIQUETTE Fact: I have been banned for 1RR. No other reason. Please stop your repetitious, personal & false accusations and address the issue and only the issue .. thx ... talknic (talk) 07:04, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
Talknic, you started out this section with a vague generalized complaint about others. I still have no idea what that was specifically supposed to refer to, but the fact remains that much of the contentious and unproductively lengthy nature of discussions on this article follows directly from rhetorical and/or argumentation strategies that you've chosen to adopt -- as I predicted months ago, before several hundreds of thousands bytes of further discussions had been added. It's really not "off-topic" of me to point out such facts -- especially in this talk-page section, which you chose to start off with purely-subjective and non-specific grumbling and groaning... AnonMoos (talk) 22:29, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
AnonMoos - there is no complaint about others what so ever in the question I posed. Your false accusations and ongoing personal vendetta is well documented. It would behoove you to cease forthwith. Thx ... talknic (talk) 00:13, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
(unindent) On the original question. No. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:53, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
De nada, pero no sé por qué la pregunta en primer lugar. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:27, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Itsmejudith - ver la guerra de exterminio de discusión //06:10, 2 December 2011/ ... talknic (talk) 23:58, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Resolved
Breaking out vote by region
I felt that the article read better when we did not break out the vote by region. Certainly it was more compact. But I'm going to leave once's change in place unless other editors agree with me. Jsolinsky (talk) 12:53, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
I agree. I find the breakdown by region unnecessary. Didn't want to revert all that work for a reason that basically boils down to taste. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:36, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Hi both. A jumble of names (e.g. in alphabetical order) is not particularly informative to the average reader trying to understand what happened in the vote. Sorting by region helps, as there are clear trends in voting style. The map serves a similar purpose. The flags aren't necessary in my view, as they don't aid understanding.
Another idea i had is to create a table, sorting the countries on one axis by how they voted and on the other axis by region. It would bring the trends out well, and help us build the text underneath to add further explanation of the most interesting votes. Would you be supportive of that? Oncenawhile (talk) 00:15, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
I have a couple of problems with the table. Most importantly, if we don't have a reliable source identifying these trends, then it's OR and should be removed. It's currently completely unsourced. Also, you are using the regional groups anachronistically. IIRC, the regional groups weren't established until the late 50s or early 60s. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:36, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
No problem - i have seen lots of sources who talk about it in broadly these terms. If you want to make sense of the vote, you have no choice but to analyse it regionally. Every commentator uses some variation of these groups, as the base trends are clear but you can cut the regions around the edges in different ways, so the conventional voting blocs give us a good base to cement it in. I'll pull together the sources which describe the regional voting trends. Anyway, don't you think the table is a good addition to provide clarity for the reader? Oncenawhile (talk) 00:52, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I have no problem with the table per se, it just needs to be sourced. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 01:06, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Done. All the sources do the same thing in slightly different ways. Oncenawhile (talk) 19:18, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
RFC: for the inclusion of Palestinian Citizenship & Palestine as Provisional State in the Article
Relates to the removal of information on Palestinian Citizenship & Palestine as Provisional State from the article and the subsequent discussion[11]. Both Palestinian citizenship and the Status of Palestine should surely be included in an article on Palestine at the time of the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine
Citizenship: At the time the Partition Plan was adopted, both Arab and Jewish citizens of Palestine were all Palestinian citizens [12]"Article 7 - The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine"
Provisional State: The first sentence of the Mandate for Palestine [13], gave "effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations". LoN Covenant Article 22 - tells us [14]"Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognised subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone." Also see League of Nations mandate Class_A_mandates.
NOTES:
1)Important documents are finely crafted and should be read with as much care as they were written. The LoN Covenant says; "Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire" making no differentiation between those communities. Whereas it differentiates in respect to "Other peoples", to wit; "..especially those of Central Africa, such as South-West Africa.." and again; " certain of the South Pacific Islands".
2)Primary Sourced Documents given here. Secondary Sources used should accurately reflected the relevant Primary Documents they refer to.— Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Talknic (talk • contribs) 13:03, 7 December 2011 (UTC) talknic (talk) 08:05, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Citizenship & Status of Palestine Discussion
With respect to the citizenship issue: Lets be sure not to confuse aspirational statements with reality. The quoted text obliges the mandatory administration to implement a nationality law. The same document also obliged them to facilitate Jewish immigration. Plainly, not everything in the mandate was implemented. I'm not opposed to including information about citizenship at the time of partition. But if we do so, I believe that the following conditions should exist:
1. We should have sources that explicitly reference citizenship at the time of partition.
2. We should present the information in a context that clearly relates the information to the subject matter of the article.
It seems entirely plausible to me that both of these conditions can be satisfied. My support or opposition to the proposal therefore depends on the actual text used, its supporting references, and its location within the article. Jsolinsky (talk) 13:53, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
With respect to the attempt to characterize Palestine as a provisional state before the mandate, see my comments above. If this can't be done without an original synthesis of existing sources, it shouldn't be done. Whereas I think that a statement on citizenship could, given the right sources, be added to this article in a way that improves it, I am deeply skeptical after the past several months of discussion that talknic's theories on Palestine being a provisional state could ever appear here in a beneficial manner. If there was a supporting RS, it would have appeared by now. None of talknic's sources say that before the partition, Palestine was a provisional state. Jsolinsky (talk) 16:28, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - Reiteration/confimation is not SYNTH. The LoN Covenant came before the Mandate for Palestine, the Mandate for Palestine re-iterates the LoN Covenant. The Mandate for Palestine says quite specifically it gave "effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations".
"If there was a supporting RS" How bizarre. RS Secondary Sources were provided in the original discussion. [15] .... [16]. They come from the version reverted by NMMNG under the completely false premises of there being no Secondary Source/s.
"None of talknic's sources say that before the partition, Palestine was a provisional state." Click on the Secondary Sources provided. False accusations do not belong in Wikipedia or anywhere else for that matter ... talknic (talk) 17:09, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Please don't lecture on what belongs in Wikipedia. Endless discussions dripping with accusations of bad faith do not belong in Wikipedia. If NMMNG criticizes your source, that does not make it a "false accusation". It means he has taken the time to make a comment and help improve the article. You would be better off addressing the merits of his arguments.
You have provided two sources above, neither of which link to actual text for me. (I suspect that the first link is not supposed to show text, whereas the second may be a google books limitation). What do they say about the issue at hand?
I will one final time address the merits of your synth (despite the fact that even if your synth were correct, it would still have no place in wikipedia as it is your own original synthesis).
1. Article 22 is the authorization for all LoN mandates. The Mandate for Palestine cites Article 22 because that is the source of its legitimacy.
2. Article 22 certainly does not say that Palestine was a provisional state at the time of partition (nearly 3 decades later). Article 22 says: "Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognised subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory."
3. The use of the word "certain" implies that some communities are excluded. As google informs us: "Certain: Pronoun: Some but not all: 'certain of his works have been edited'."
4. History records that a provisional state WAS created in mandatory Palestine: Transjordan. Provisional states were also created in the other Ottoman mandates. We have extensive Wikipedia articles about them. We have no record of a provisional state (other than Transjordan) having been created in Palestine. In fact, we have ample historical records supporting the fact that the British ruled the partitioned area directly, up until their evacuation.
5. None of this matters, because neither my arguments nor your arguments are RS. All that matters is what we find in verifiable sources, and those sources almost uniformly declare that the partitioned area was run by the British up until partition. Jsolinsky (talk) 17:39, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - "Endless discussions dripping with accusations of bad faith do not belong in Wikipedia" False premises for reverting are bad faith. As are false claims that I have not provided Secondary Sources
"I will one final time address the merits of your synth" Reiteration of the Covenant by the Mandate for Palestine is not SYNTH.
"The Mandate for Palestine cites Article 22 because that is the source of its legitimacy." Correct. Which Territories formerly belonging to the Ottoman Empire were excluded in the wording of LoN Covenant? Name one.
"Article 22 certainly does not say that Palestine was a provisional state at the time of partition (nearly 3 decades later)" The Mandate for Palestine gave "effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations" No territory formerly belonging to the Ottoman Empire was excluded from Provisional status in the LoN Mandate. The Covenant goes on to mention "Other Peoples" wherein the wording is different. It is pointed out in the RFC.
"We have extensive Wikipedia articles about them. We have no record of a provisional state (other than Transjordan) having been created in Palestine" When you prevent RS Secondary Sourced information from being included, is it any wonder? "In fact, we have ample historical records supporting the fact that the British ruled the partitioned area directly, up until their evacuation" Yes, under a [| Class A Mandate] BTW you have provided only your opinion. No Secondary Sources, whilst falsely accusing me of not having provided Secondary Sources ... talknic (talk) 18:27, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
"Which Territories formerly belonging to the Ottoman Empire were excluded in the wording?" First, it doesn't say "territories". It says "communities". The covenant is silent on the question you ask. It only says that "certain" communities are provisionally recognized. I'd rather not impute an answer. If forced to, we should look to the actual words and actions of the LoN. Given that provisional states were created in Syria, Mesopotamia, Lebanon and Transjordan, it would appear that those are the communities which were provisionally recognized. Given that no state was created in the remainder of Palestine, I would assume that those communities (Palestinian Jews and Arabs) were excluded. Jsolinsky (talk) 19:04, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - Correct, 'communities'. And; Turkish Empire BTW ... So which communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire were excluded from provisional status in the LoN Covenant?
"Given that provisional states were created in Syria, Mesopotamia, Lebanon and Transjordan" the LoN Covenant afforded them Provisional Status and; didn't name them specifically (I guess you have to make it up), nor the LoN Covenant exempt Palestine specifically and; no 'Provisional' States were created under the respective mandates, States were created.
"It only says that "certain" communities are provisionally recognized." no it says precisely "Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire" Not differentiating between them. Unlike further in Article 22, beginning at 'Other peoples' where it differentiates between "certain of the South Pacific Islands".
"Given that no state was created in the remainder of Palestine" Correct under the Mandates. Note the vast difference between "Provisional States" and "States". No "States" were created under the LoN Covenant, it was left to the Mandatory Powers ... talknic (talk) 06:21, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - Forgot this "You have provided two sources above, neither of which link to actual text for me. (I suspect that the first link is not supposed to show text, whereas the second may be a google books limitation). What do they say about the issue at hand?"
Source one [17] read the Read the 5th sentence .... Source two [18] read the 3rd paragraph ... talknic (talk) 18:36, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
First link still doesn't work for me, but I assume it is the same as this: [19]. As I discussed above, this is an RS for the fact that Arabs have interpreted the LoN covenant as granting the Palestinians provisional recognition. The book cites Abu-Lughod who used selective quoting from the covenant to arrive at this result. The book is NOT a source for the mandate giving Palestinians a provisional state. In fact, Farah explicitly states that the mandate "ran counter" to the covenant, to the extent that the latter promised provisional recognition to the Palestinian Arabs. 19:04, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
The second link DOES work for me now. But it doesn't address the issue. Obviously the Mandate for Palestine DID produce a provisional and eventually official state: Transjordan. The issue, I think, is whether or not the peoples living in the partitioned area were granted a provisional state. Jsolinsky (talk) 19:04, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - Oh dear. That is the first link and; yes, the author accurately references the LoN Covenant which did not exclude, specifically or otherwise, Palestine from certain of the 'communities' formerly belonging to the Ottoman Empire. If a community wasn't excluded, it was included.
"The book is NOT a source for the mandate giving Palestinians a provisional state" Correct. The Mandate for Palestine did not give provisional status, it gave "effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations" The author is inaccurate on the point of the Mandate for Palestine. That is the nature of WP:RS"Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context"
"The book cites Abu-Lughod who used selective quoting from the covenant to arrive at this result. " Abu-Lughod was talking about the Balfour Declaration. Who is being selective?
"Farah explicitly states that the mandate "ran counter" to the covenant" Yes. Selectively not quoting the Mandate for Palestine giving "effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations". RS on one point, not RS on another.
"The second link DOES work for me now. But it doesn't address the issue." Third paragraph "the Middle Eastern Mandates were classified as Class A Mandates"
"Obviously the Mandate for Palestine DID produce a provisional and eventually official state" The Mandate did not produce a Provisional State in Transjordan, it produced a State in Transjordan. The certain communities, (no community was named as being exempt in the LoN Covenant), were Provisional States before the Mandates were adopted.
"The issue, I think, is whether or not the peoples living in the partitioned area were granted a provisional state" Best you hop over to Class A mandates and start changing it. Though I don't recall your objections to it until this discussion came about
BTW you still have not provided any sources for your opinions ... talknic (talk) 02:32, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
"If a community wasn't excluded, it was included." Why on earth would you think that? "Certain Arabs/Jews have used terrorism to advance their political agendas." Do you think that this implies that all Arabs/Jews who are not explicitly excluded from that statement are automatically terrorists?
As the ample discussion indicates, attempting to debate this with you is unlikely to provide progress. In fact, I had previously promised not to continue debating this with you. My recent reiteration of my position is for the benefit of future editors who would seek to answer your RFC and stands on its own. Hopefully I will follow my own advice and avoid responding further. Jsolinsky (talk) 03:02, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky - The LoN Covenant, unlike your statement, continues, names and differentiates between the 'Other peoples', whereas it does not for the communities belonging the former Ottoman Empire. See the RFC Note ... talknic (talk) 04:30, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Not sure what the question is here - the information offered seems on its own, inoffensive. If there is a dispute the RFC should make it clear, without requiring readers to necessarily read the whole talk page. I do find the sentence "Secondary Sources used should accurately reflected the relevant Primary Documents they refer to." not as innocuous as it looks, I can see endless arguments over excluding sources that way, for example in sourcing Clause 28 one group would would say secondary sources that emphasise the word "promote" are reflecting the clause correctly, while another would not. RichFarmbrough, 15:29, 7 December 2011 (UTC).
Rich Farmbrough - Edited RFC question. Thx. Your Clause 28 doesn't seem to relate to this matter... talknic (talk) 16:15, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
No and no. Regarding citizenship, it says that "The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law". Not that they actually enacted such a law. Also note talknic provides no secondary source for his interpretation. Meanwhile, this is the passport "Palestinian citizens" carried. As for provincial statehood, it says that certain (not all) communities can be (not "are" or "must be") provisionally recognized. After searching for months, talknic found one source (out of the hundreds if not thousands that discuss these issues) that reads the LoN Covenant like he does, and even that source says that the Mandate violated the article, or in other words that it didn't happen. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 06:15, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
NMMNG - Great image of a front cover.." Not that they actually enacted such a law" this is the passport "Palestinian citizens" carried" Correct the The British were the 'authority' so tell us what citizenship did Palestinians have? Because this is INSIDE a cover in 1945[20]National Status - Palestinian citizen ... 1946[21]National Status - Palestinian citizen ... talknic (talk) 12:59, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Keep: The information is clear and uncontroversial. NMMNG, I am embarrassed for you re your reference to the passport, attempting to use the front page of a passport to prove that there was no such thing as a "Palestinian citizen". The picture on the right is the inside of one of these passports - look carefully on the bottom right of the page and you will see a stamp which says "Palestinian Citizen". Oncenawhile (talk) 08:46, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Animation emphasizing 1947 National Status as being Palestinian citizen
talknic (talk) 21:41, 8 December 2011 (UTC) talknic (talk) 09:43, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Awww, I'm touched. I didn't know you cared so much. I'm a little embarrassed for you that you'd make such a strong statement about an illegible stamp in a passport, so I guess we're even. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:50, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
You know I love you NMMNG. As a present for the festive season, please see here the passport of Moshe Dayan's mother. You will see a more legible stamp here. Oncenawhile (talk) 09:55, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Happy Festivus to you too. That readable stamp lead me to the Palestinian Citizenship Order of 1925, which lead me to this interesting book that touches on some of the issues we've been discussing. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:28, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
The pictures paint a rather conclusive bit of evidence re Palestinian Citizenship. The RFC is however the inclusion of what seems now to be confirmed ... talknic (talk) 16:09, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
This is really grossly premature for an RFC. We shouldn't have an RFC unless:
1. There is a specific proposal and
2. An impasse has been reached.
I have no idea what the specific proposal is. If Talknic thinks he has something that is supported and relevant and improves the article, he should add it. Jsolinsky (talk) 19:11, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinsky -- This IS the RFC. You've been involved in it from the start, putting up no Secondary Sources to support your opinions. Not having been able to show where the LoN Covenant said specifically that Palestine was exempt from Provisional recognition and on Nationality Status as Palestinian citizen being shown in a 1947 passport, you only now, suddenly, move the goal posts to their latest really quite odd position.
Furthermore, if you have no idea what the specific proposal is, what on earth have you been objecting to? (apart from everything)
And this is completely bizarre "If Talknic thinks he has something that is supported and relevant and improves the article, he should add it." I did, it was reverted. It's what this RFC is about. An impasse (one of many) was reached [23]. Your name appears there ..... often .... ... talknic (talk) 21:25, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Winterval approaches! happy holidays. I wonder whether any uninvolved people will comment in this RfC. Perhaps we need an RfC on whether the RfC is working.Itsmejudith (talk) 22:21, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
I think we all know the answer to that question. Also, your Winterval POV pushing is not appreciated. Everyone knows the COMMONNAME is Festivus.
Have you even READ the articles????? Festivus occurs 'DURING Winterval. Winterval lasts from Halloween to Chinese New Year. I am certainly celebrating actively for the whole of that period and suggest you do too. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:25, 9 December 2011 (UTC).
Will this British-centric systemic bias never end?! Not to mention the blasphemy! No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:39, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
By the way, did you see that animated GIF above? Am I the only one who thinks it's hilarious? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
NMMNG - I'm glad you can laugh at yourself. BTW maybe an eye check is advisable. The Nationality Status being Palestinian citizen is rather obvious in the original image, the animation isn't really necessary, except it seems for those who're blinded to seeing it ... talknic (talk) 06:22, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
I think it the gif is outstanding. I've learned two things from all this - (1) that a lot more people have a good sense of humour here than i had realised, and (2) that NMMNG and i can actually agree on some things. Oh yes, and also i learned about the Palestinian Citizenship Order of 1925. This has been a great day. PS - I agree with Zero that an article on the PCO1925 (as it is commonly known) is warranted, and it should be mentioned in the Palestinian people article. Oncenawhile (talk) 00:26, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
What is this RFC actually about? After poking around a bit here I'm not sure. If the question is whether Palestine had a nationality law, yes it did and NMMNG already named it: the Palestinian Citizenship Order that came into effect in Aug 1925. The subject probably deserves its own article as there are interesting aspects. Zerotalk 23:58, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
You're probably right. From what I've been reading, there was an uncommon situation for several years between the time the Ottomans lost control of the area and when the Citizen Order was put into effect wherein there was no law governing the nationality/citizenship of people living in Palestine. Also, Palestine was the only mandate in the region where the British were the ones who created the citizenship law rather than the local government. Maybe I'll make an animated GIF about it. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:19, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
NMMNG - "Palestine was the only mandate in the region where the British were the ones who created the citizenship law" Yes, the British were the authority over Palestinians citizens in Palestine at the time ... talknic (talk) 06:22, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
This book has the law starting on p151. If you (or anyone else here) would prefer a PDF file, send me email. There were amendments later. Zerotalk 00:48, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Bottom line is this: I have no idea what specific text talknic wants to add to the article. Its plain that I am not the only one with this problem. In fact, I wonder if anyone other than talknic knows. I certainly get that Talknic wants to add something about citizenship to the article. But absent a specific proposal, I am unable to take a position on that. It might be beneficial. It might be detrimental. It depends on the details. Jsolinsky (talk) 04:46, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Jsolinski - Now you've moved the goal posts from not knowing what the RFC is about, to not knowing what specific text is proposed. However, you were involved in the first discussion on the revert of what was added to the article. At the very top of the RFC there is a reference to that discussion ... talknic (talk) 22:53, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
I've been following this discussion page for 3½ years (to be sure, less than Zero0000's 8 years!), and have very little idea what Talknic is specifically trying to get at. There was some notion of Palestinian Mandate citizenship, but this was not necessarily greatly different from other British colonial citizenship statuses, and it only has a very oblique relationship to any claims that pre-1948 Palestine was a quasi-sovereign state, or any claims of pre-1948 post-1948 continuity... AnonMoos (talk) 10:58, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
AnoMoos - "have very little idea what Talknic is specifically trying to get at". How very, very, very, strange. It was you who specifically reverted what I added to the article. Now, by your latest comment, it appears you did so without knowing what you were reverting. You won't mind if I restore?
"have very little idea what Talknic is specifically trying to get at", you then attempt to downplay Palestinian citizenship (which now seems beyond doubt BTW).
"have very little idea what Talknic is specifically trying to get at", you then say " any claims that pre-1948 Palestine was a quasi-sovereign state". By your answers you know exactly 'what Talknic is specifically trying to get at' ... talknic (talk) 22:53, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Is it really that strange to you? At least a dozen editors over multiple discussions have told you they don't understand what it is you want. I understand what you basically want, which is to push your personal theories into this encyclopedia. But case by case you post long meandering walls of text that the few of us who bother to read would have to spend considerable amounts of time trying to untangle in order to get to the specific point, which is just not worth it.
Let me give you an example. For weeks you've been going on about citizenship, posting irrelevant primary sources, walls of text of your interpretations thereof, an RfC that nobody understood, and repeating yourself ad nausium. Once another editor joined in and made a concise and to the point argument, I identified the relevant law and provided a RS that discusses it. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 01:04, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
NMMNG -- "At least a dozen editors over multiple discussions have told you they don't understand what it is you want" Odd There has been one discussion & this RFC and; You understand [24], you did the original revert and in then you argued against. AnonMoos knew, reverted & argued against
In this RFC: First comment in the RFC - Jsolinsky knew exactly what was proposed | Jsolinsky (talk) 13:53, 7 December 2011 (UTC) Oddly, but quite expected, after the Passport was revealed, Jsolinsky suddenly claimed he didn't understand
You understand [25], you did the original revert and in the first discussion you argued against (everything) ... AnonMoos knew, reverted & also argued against in the first discussion.
Oncenawhile - Gave the Passport from the inside, confirming Nationality Status as Palestinian citizenship & Itsmejudith - wrote inanities
Your "At least a dozen editors" is in fact only seven and only ONE did not understand, being Rich Farmbrough @ 15:29, 7 December 2011 who asked, I answered and adapted this RFC accordingly (compromise in the spirit of Wikipedia) he has not come back (leaving a nonsensical Clause 28)
"For weeks you've been going on about citizenship, posting irrelevant primary sources, " And as they were in fact Secondary Sources you claimed were SYNTH, Good Faith becomes ever hard to maintain. Furthermore the relevance of Primary Sources in Talk and this RFC is clearly explained. I can only guess you just don't like people having genuine references on which to find Secondary Sources.
"I understand what you basically want, which is to push your personal theories into this encyclopedia." Another false claim. Secondary sources were provided, I did not write them. They accurately reflect the documents they cited, per WP:RS in context with the specific point. You reverted claiming SYNTH, when it was in fact re-iteration by the Mandate of the LoN Covenant. You've been falsely claiming since I used Primary Sources
"walls of text" That'd be detailed answers to questions I've been asked and information you don't like
Furthermore | in the Discussion leading to the RFC : 3 AGAINST: NMMNG, AnonMoos, Jsolinsky ... 4 FOR: talknic, ZScarpia, Oncenawhile & Itsmejudith (who it seems supported Provisional State status "in the background section") ... talknic (talk) 08:52, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
By the way, I'm really not too sure what you're counting me as being "against" here, since in the relevant section above, I was pretty much only "against" confusing the pre-1950s and post-1950s meaning of the word Palestinian... AnonMoos (talk) 14:12, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Talknic -- I reverted solely and exclusively because there seemed to be excessive confusion between the pre-1950s meaning of the word "Palestinian" and the post-1950s meaning of the word Palestinian, as I explained in my comment of "10:22, 6 November 2011" above. Some of the other stuff I don't necessarily know or care a great deal about, but I definitely do know and care about that particular aspect, as explained at length in my comment of "16:39, 6 November 2011" above. AnonMoos (talk) 02:56, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
AnonMoos - as I explained in my replies above "Palestinian citizenship". It's verbatim in the Mandate - Article 7, accurately referenced by the Secondary Source and; Nationality Status "Palestinian citizen". It's verbatim in the Passports ... talknic (talk) 08:52, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
That's nice, except it completely fails to address the actual issue -- which is that the word "Palestinian" had a very different meaning in 1919 (when it was commonly used to refer to both Jews and Arabs) than it would have for most readers today. The Jerusalem Post was known as the "Palestine Post" as late as 1952, while the majority of the populace of the United States and many European countries really did not become familiar with the meaning of the word "Palestinian" as restrictively referring almost exclusively to Arabs until the 1960s. Therefore there can be no confusion or obfuscation about the differences between the 1919 meaning and the 2011 meaning in this or any other Wikipedia article. If I ever see any intentionally or unintentionally confusing uses of the word (where the word is used in its old meaning, but suitable context is not given to inform the non-specialist reader about the differences between old and new meanings), then I will seek to clarify or remove them with great vigor and alacrity, as I said before... AnonMoos (talk) 10:07, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
AnonMoos - "than it would have for most readers today. " The article is not about 1952 or 1960s or 2011. Please stay on topic ... talknic (talk) 13:20, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Whatever, dude -- our Elizabeth I of England article is about the 16th century, not 2011, but we don't write it in Elizabethan English, and if any 16th-century word is incomprehensible or confusing due to language change, then it would be either avoided or explained in that article. The same principle applies here... AnonMoos (talk) 01:23, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
"Whatever, dude"WP:CIVIL. BTW Palestinian & Palestine in 1947 were written the same as today, "Palestinian" & "Palestine" ... talknic (talk) 03:29, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
The words were written with the same letters, but they have a rather different meaning in the 20th century before the 1950s vs. after the 1950s -- and any attempt to obscure this basic difference would be fundamentally dishonest (and a greater violation of Wikipedia policies than the trivial nonsense you're always accusing me of)... AnonMoos (talk) 04:10, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
P.S. There seems to be no doubt at all that the words "Palestinian citizenship", "Palestinian citizen" or similar occurred in some mandate laws and/or regulations and/or legal documents, so I'm not actually "downplaying" those particular facts. However, what then?? In reality, Palestinian citizenship was not greatly different from being a non-British inhabitant of many of Britain's other colonies. And any claimed continuity between pre-1948 and post-1948 must be explicitly demonstrated from proper sources -- not merely assumed with vague hand-waving gestures, or declared to exist based on innovative personal interpretations of primary source documents. Without such documentation from proper sources, Palestinian citizenship is a whole lot less important than you seem to assume it to be (and should be discussed on the main British Mandate for Palestine article, not here)... AnonMoos (talk) 03:13, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
AnonMoos - Noted your unsourced opinion. "so I'm not actually "downplaying" those particular facts. " To quote NMMNG "bullshit" read your arguments in the discussion. "And any claimed continuity between pre-1948 and post-1948 " Yes well, as no one has made any such claim. Nice of you to introduce some irrelevance into the discussion ...talknic (talk) 08:52, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
If there's no claimed continuity between pre-1948 and post-1948, then what the heck relevance does Palestinian Mandate citizenship even have to this article (as opposed to the main British Mandate for Palestine article) in the first place??? AnonMoos (talk) 10:13, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
AnonMoos - "If there's no claimed continuity between pre-1948 and post-1948" The article is about the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine. Please stay on topic ... thx ... talknic (talk) 13:27, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Why is Palestinian Mandate citizenship relevant to this article at all??????????? Maybe you need to explain that one first... AnonMoos (talk) 01:23, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
AnonMoos -- "Why is Palestinian Mandate citizenship relevant to this article at all?" It isn't. There was no such thing. A mandate is a set of conditions. Trying to move the goal posts now that Palestinian citizenship in 1947 has been proven is cute. (Quite expected)
BTW read the RFC 1st paragraph 2nd sentence & 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence // "... Both Palestinian citizenship and the Status of Palestine should surely be included in an article on Palestine at the time of the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine ... Citizenship: At the time the Partition Plan was adopted, both Arab and Jewish citizens of Palestine were all Palestinian citizens // Why would anyone try to prevent the status of Jewish citizens of Palestine being known? ... talknic (talk) 03:19, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
If Palestinian mandate citizenship isn't relevant to this article, then why are you wasting our time with this whole RFC in the first place? It's relevant to the British Mandate for Palestine article, but if there's any reason why it's SPECIFICALLY relevant to this article, this sure hasn't emerged from your clouds of verbiage... AnonMoos (talk) 04:10, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
AnonMoos - Nice try.. Maybe you can show where "Palestinian mandate citizenship" was stamped in a passport? ... talknic (talk) 06:36, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Nice try on completely evading and avoiding addressing the main issue in any form whatsoever -- namely, what direct relevance does Palestinian mandate citizenship have to the subject of this article??? If it has none, then this RFC should be terminated immediately as a pointless time-wasting exercise. AnonMoos (talk) 14:07, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Whether Palestinian Citizenship continued to exist after 1948 seems to be a legally complex one. I don't think there is only one opinion among the experts. One thing I know is that Israel at least considered the possibility, since the Israeli Nationality Law of 1952 has a clause "The Palestinian Citizenship Orders, 1925-1942, are repealed with effect from the day of the establishment of the State." Zerotalk 05:29, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
We have an article History of Palestinian nationality. It is one of a series History of xxxx nationality created in 2007 as a student project. Actually, it is quite interesting, though poorly sourced. I think we can quite easily establish that the Palestine Citizenship Order of 1925 remained in place until the creation of the State of Israel. It was formally rescinded in July 1952. We have to merge the whole series of articles, and the sourced material from the Palestine one should go into History of Palestine. I still think we can have a very brief mention here in the Background section, but it has to be very briefed and properly sourced. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:53, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Itsmejudith - Surely readers ought first know the status of the people whose land was about to be partitioned under the UN plan ... talknic (talk) 12:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Do you mean that you want the information to go in the lead paragraph of this article? If so, please look at WP:LEDE. The first paragraph summarises the article as a whole and doesn't present information that isn't in the main body. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:48, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Uninvolved editor's comment: The RfC bot randomly selected me for an invitation to comment here. I regret to say that I'm unable to identify the issue with enough specificity. My impression (especially from some of talknic's comments) is that, if I were to wade through the edit history of the article, I would find multiple instances of people reverting each other, and at least one of those edits would involve the subject of the RfC. I'm not that energetic, however. As someone with no background in this article, I need the RfC to say something like "Here's Version 1 [text], here's Version 2 [text], here's the argument for why Version 1 is better, here's the argument for why Version 2 is better." I will offer general impressions that (1) I am favorably impressed by the detailed command of the facts exhibited by the editors, even when they are disagreeing with each other, and (2) I am unfavorably impressed by the overall tone of the discussion, in which more than one editor has descended to unnecessary levels of acrimony. Please try to chill out, at least long enough to frame an agreed-upon statement of the issue. JamesMLanetc 08:20, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Proposal to switch Azzam quotes in Arab reaction section
The Azzam quote that we presently use has been much discussed. The problems with it are several fold. The translation has been called into question, its words are emotional, and its words are ambiguous and have been interpreted in multiple ways.
In making my recent edits, I repeatedly came across another Azzam quote, from a meeting on September 16th, 1947 with Abba Eban and David Horowitz. It begins "The Arab world is not at all in a compromising mood" and ends "In any case, the problem is likely to be solved only by force of arms."
I think that this quote is superior to the current one in that it is unambiguous, and rational.
On the negative side, it was made in private, and Eban and Horowitz's versions are slightly different (in wording but not content). But it has been heavily quoted in the literature for decades, including a relatively contemporaneous mention in FRUS.
I propose that we remove the war of extermination quote (because two Azzam quotes gives him undue weight), and use this other quote which IMNSHO is significantly more informative.
Any thoughts?Jsolinsky (talk) 17:19, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
The Summary contains a paragraph to the effect that the leaders of the Jewish community accepted the plan.
The proposed plan was accepted by the leaders of the Jewish community in Palestine, through the Jewish Agency.[3][4] The plan was rejected by leaders of the Arab community (the Palestine Arab Higher Committee etc.),[3][5] who were supported in their rejection by the states of the Arab League.
For the reasons below, I have deleted the paragraph.
The inclusion of words like accept, reject or believe does not allow the possibility that the the person expressing the belief or purporting to accept or to reject a state of affairs may simply be acting the hypocrite.
The article on Jaffa suggests that neither Lehi or the Irgun approved the inclusion of Jaffa in the Palestinian state as proposed in the plan
On 4 January 1948 the Lehi detonated a truck bomb outside the 3-storey 'Serrani', Jaffa's Ottoman built Town Hall, killing 26 and injuring hundreds. The driver was reported to be wearing the uniform of the Royal Irish Fusiliers.[25][26][27][28].
On April 25, 1948, Irgun launched an offensive on Jaffa. This began with a mortar bombardment which went on for three days during which twenty tons of high explosive were fired into the town.[29] On April 27 the British Government, fearing a repetition of the mass exodus from Haifa the week before, ordered the British Army to confront the Irgun and their offensive ended. Simultaneously the Haganah had launched Operation Chametz which over-ran the villages East of Jaffa and cut the town off from the interior.[30]
There were leaders other than those in the Jewish Agency.
Trahelliven(talk) 10:07, 6
January 2012 (UTC)
You removed sourced information from the article based on your interpretation of another wikipedia article? That's unacceptable. I'm going to restore the information you removed as it is well sourced and I could easily add a dozen more sources that support it. If you want to add more information based on reliable sources (not wikipedia articles), feel free to do so. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 04:27, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
We've gone all through this many times before. It's true that some Jewish leaders supported acceptance of UNGA 181 for rather tactical reasons, and few of them were 100% satisfied with the compromise, but that doesn't overthrow the basic fact that the Jews signified their acceptance of the plan, and the Arabs their rejection, by means of such institutions as the Jewish agency, Palestine Arab Higher Comittee, etc. Lehi and Irgun were not the Yishuv Jewish leadership, and in the end had to be semi-forcibly restrained by the Yishuv leadership (one reason why the Jews have had a state for the last 60 years). AnonMoos (talk) 05:06, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps I should have put it differently. I am not alleging that the most of the Jewish community did not accept the Plan. How do we know that the Jewish Agency correctly reflects the views of the Jewish community? Menachen Begin, leader of the Irgun finished up as Prime Minister of Israel as did Yitzhak Shamir of Lehi. Were they also not leaders of the Jewish community in 1947-1948?
The paragraph reduces a complicated collection of attitudes to the plan to an oversimple proposition.Trahelliven(talk) 16:00, 6
January 2012(UTC)
We've gone through some of that ground before too -- the specified community institutions were the designated channels through which the Arabs and Jews could convey their acceptance or rejection of the plan in late 1947 and early 1948. If these designated institutions were not truly reflective of community public opinion, then that issue needed to be raised in 1947/1948 -- because it's sure as heck completely pointless and useless for us to try to conduct a hypothetical metaphysical speculative alternative retroactive opinion poll at this late date!! (Not to mention WP:OR.) Furthermore, Begin didn't become prime minister until 1977, almost 30 years later. In 1947, he was part of a minority faction.
There were various opinions among various individuals in private, but in their collective public positions and semi-formal responses to the UN, the Jews accepted and the Arabs rejected. AnonMoos (talk) 12:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
That's correct. The Jewish Agency was the recognized leadership of the Yishuv, both internally and internationally. There were of course opposition groups but they were small and received no international recognition. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:26, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Someone should add references to show that the "Jewish Agency was the recognized leadership of the Yishuv, both internally and internationally" and, if there were opposition groups, this should be noted.Trahelliven(talk) 07:20, 7
January 2012 (UTC)
Here's one. There are plenty of others. I'm not aware of any scholarship disputing this fact. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:57, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
I note that at the bottom of page 45 the Zionist leaders are described as "appeared willing to accept the Jewish state as created". As a compromise, I think that is the best way to put it. Trahelliven(talk) 09:45, 7
January 2012 (UTC)
No, the best way to put it is that the Jewish establishment accepted the plan, and the Arab leadership rejected it, as described in countless reliable sources. Jeff Song (talk) 23:48, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Trahelliven, if you want to have a productive sustained continuing influence on improving this article, then it really would be better for you to start educating yourself on some of these matters, instead of relying on us to correct your various misconceptions. AnonMoos (talk) 00:19, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
I am willing to concede that the Arabs rejected the plan.
The references for the bald proposition that the Jewish community and/or the Jewish Agency accepted the plan are suspect:
The Antony Best reference is in a very general book. Without seeing the book itself, I cannot make any further comment.
I concede that the Jewish Agency wanted the adoption of the plan by the General Assembly but that is not the same thing as accepting the plan, Maybe the author mentioned above is trying to make that distinction on page 45.Trahelliven(talk) 18:55, 7
January 2012 (UTC)
Page 47 http://books.google.com.au/books?id=SWqosbsoABwC&pg=PA41&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false indicates that both the Arabs and the Zionists attempted to grab terriory beyond that set aside for their particular state. Whether in the case of the Zionists this may have been a matter of survival is beside the point. Within days of Resolution 181, the Jewish community was acting as if the Resolution had not been passed. In other words the phrase 'accepted the plan', certainly withun days of 29 November 1947, is incorrect.Trahelliven(talk) 20:22, 7
January 2012 (UTC)
Whatever -- acceptance or rejection has nothing to do with the various diverging personal opinions of various individuals, but rather with what was conveyed to UN bodies by recognized community institutions.
Furthermore, the issue of the partition plan lines after the British withdrawal is another red herring issue that has also been discussed a number of times before. The details of the November 29th 1947 compromise proposal never became operational after the Arabs rejected the proposed deal, and in any case, the proposed partition plan lines were completely militarily indefensible (in some cases, very deliberately so), meaning that if the Jews had confined themselves within the purely theoretical Arab-rejected November 29th 1947 lines, while the Arabs were free to cross and recross the lines at will, then the Jews would have been militarily defeated before they even began, and might as well have thrown themselves into the sea and saved the Arabs the trouble -- as both sides were very well aware at the time... AnonMoos (talk) 11:13, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
In other words, the Jews agreed to the Partition Plan only conditionally as part of an overall deal -- which would be also agreed to by the Arabs, and supervised by the UN and the Great Powers, etc. The Jews never agreed to unilaterally obey the terms of the partition plan at the very same moment that the Arabs were spurning and scorning the same plan with virulent contumely, and insisting that it was legally utterly null and void without any binding legal force or validity whatsoever. Demanding that the Jews obey the terms of the plan in those particular circumstances is a very strange type of claim, which would not appear to be supported by ordinary and conventional legal or diplomatic precedents. AnonMoos (talk) 11:25, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
(ec) I agree with Anonmoos, although I think it's more accurate to say they "signaled" their approval of the plan. Of course, the Israeli declaration of independence also says that Israel is founded based on the partition plan so in that sense it was also "accepted". It's true that e.g. Ben Gurion planned to expand beyond the partition plan borders already before accepting, but that doesn't affect the fact that nonetheless he signaled acceptance of the plan. Whether the acceptance was sincere, is another matter. --Dailycare (talk) 11:29, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
"Signaled" in the sense they said they accept it? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:43, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
I second AnonMoos' suggestion that you familiarize yourself with this subject before attempting to edit the article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:43, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
If Dailycare is correct in saying that Ben-Gurion planned to expand beyond the partition plan borders already before accepting, I fail to see hw he can be said to have accepted the plan at all. AnonMoos admits that the Jews agreed to the Partition Plan only conditionally as part of an overall deal -- which would be also agreed to by the Arabs. To say the Jewish community accepted the plan is too simplistic and therefpre misleading. See also the following sentence ithe article itself - Simha Flapan wrote that it was a myth that Zionists accepted the UN partition and planned for peace, and that it was also a myth that Arabs rejected partition and launched a war.Trahelliven(talk) 06:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
We work according to what sources say, not what wikipedia editors think. Again, I suggest you read some scholarship about this issue. Also, perhaps you should read WP:V and WP:OR. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:18, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
trahellevin, you clearly have a great deal of knowledge in this area, but you need to come up with some references to back up what you are saying. You do not need to remove what is there, but it would be good to include your ancillary information about what acceptance and rejection actually constituted, if you can provide the sources.Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 22:14, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes, "signaled" in the sense that they said they accepted the plan, even though they weren't sincerely planning to abide by it. --Dailycare (talk) 22:17, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
I suppose you have a source for this unique wording, or is it something you came up with yourself? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 02:03, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Dailycare -- there was only one way to truly test whether the Jews were sincere in their acceptance of the plan: that is, for the Arabs to also accept the plan, and to see what then happened. Since the Arabs chose instead to flush an international guarantee of an independent state on a much larger amount of territory than the later Gaza Strip and West Bank straight down the crapper, and to enter into the double-or-nothing gamble of a war, we'll never know -- and for us to personally speculate on the matter in a Wikipedia article would be flagrant "Original Research". AnonMoos (talk) 04:26, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Trahelliven, I'm sorry, but your latest round of remarks verges on mere quibbling over semantics. The Jews accepted the overall compromise deal, contingent on the Arabs also accepting the deal (its terms being supervised by the UN and the great powers), etc. That's the ordinary common meaning of the word "accept" in the context of a compromise bargain -- both sides agree to give up something to get something. Requiring one side to commit to unilateral concessions regardless of whether the other side agrees to the deal, or is willing to make any reciprocal concessions, is not what is ordinarily understood by "accepting a compromise". AnonMoos (talk) 04:26, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
AnonMoos You are right I am quibling over semantics. If the acceptance by Israel of the compromise deal was contingent on the Arabs also accepting the deal, the perhaps the bald statement in the introductory summary should be amended to reflect that contigency (with an appropriate reference). The Arabs might have taken the same position and that raises the question of which side was the first to do any act which was inconsitent with its acceptance of the plan. You appear to assume that it was the Arabs. On the other hand if Dailycare is correct in saying that Ben-Gurion planned to expand beyond the partition plan borders already before accepting, then the Arabs may be justified in not having accepted the plan (on any interpretation of the phrase). Jewish Virtual Library on Ben's leadership of the Jewish Agency and then Israel itself -http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/ben_gurion.html.
Dalai lama ding dong Accepted the plan is an ambiguous phrase. On the one hand it might mean that the Jrewish Agency accepted that the plan should be addopted by the General Assembly. On the other hand it might mean that the Jewish Agency and then the state of Israel accepted the Plan for Partition, including the proposal for the creation of the three entities and the boundaries as proposed in the plan. I accept the tuth of the statement in the first interpretation but its truth on the second interptetation is a matter of historical dispute.Trahelliven(talk) 19:20, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Would you please learn how to follow ordinary Wikipedia comment thread conventions?? -- because by now it's getting a little annoying that you haven't bothered to make the slightest effort to do so! Furthermore, quibbling over semantics is exactly what this article doesn't need. And if the Arabs had (hypothetically, counterfactually) agreed to the partition plan, then international supervision forces would have ensured that there was no cheating -- while the fact that in reality the Arabs did not agree to the partition plan meant that crossing the purely theoretical Arab-rejected partition plan lines was an urgent military necessity for the survival of the Jews in Palestine, so I don't see how Ben Gurion's intentions are too greatly relevant. (Please consult the passages above about how "acceptance" or "rejection" has nothing to do with the various diverging personal opinions of various individuals, but rather with what was conveyed to UN bodies by designated recognized community institutions.) You appear to be straining to make the word "accept" mean more than it does in ordinary language, as discussed above, and I don't see how this would do anything to improve the article. AnonMoos (talk) 10:58, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Of course I have a source, I wouldn't present something I came up with myself as fact. I'm referring e.g. to the famous quote from Ben Gurion: "After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine " source. There are more quotes from the man, with references, here. So it's entirely correct to say they signaled their approval of partition, since that's what they did and there is no disagreement considering it. --Dailycare (talk) 12:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
So no source for "signaled"? Didn't think so. How many sources have you seen using "accepted"?
By the way, that quote is from 1937, but that doesn't really matter considering you're suggesting weasel words you came up with yourself. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:33, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
NMMNG, are you suggesting then that the Jewish leadership "accepted" the plan deep in their hearts, but didn't tell anyone? Although of course, we know they didn't "accept the plan" deep in their hearts. What we do know is that they communicated an acceptance of the plan. Now we can write they signaled acceptance, that they said they accepted the plan, that they voiced approval of the plan, that they formally endorsed the plan, or whatever. We don't need a source for each and every word we use in the article. Or if you prefer, we can say the Jewish leadership publicly accepted, but privately had plans to expand to the entire area. This latter is a longer version, saying they signaled acceptance is a compact wording that I'd see as appropriate for the lead. --Dailycare (talk) 16:55, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Excuse me, but that argument is ridiculous. I don't know what went on "deep in their hearts" and neither do you. This is an encyclopedia, not a psychological analysis of people who've been dead for decades. Unless you can show that most sources say something other than that they accepted the plan, that's what the article is going to say, without any weasel words you make up because you think you know what went on "deep in their hearts".
To put this in terms you might more easily relate to, Fatah "accepted" the Oslo Accords, despite some sources pointing out that some of their words and deeds may indicate that "deep in their hearts" they were only "signaling" they accepted but had other plans. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:11, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Dailycare, we've already gone over that issue on these article talk pages too -- the 1937 quote was a reaction to the Peel Plan, and cannot automatically be extended to UNGA 181, which was a very different plan offered in very different circumstances ten years later. AnonMoos (talk) 17:27, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Dailycare, please be more careful to make sure that the quotes you use supports the arguments that you make. Doing things like quoting Ben Gurion's reaction to the Peel Plan (which the article very clearly states the Jews rejected) in support of a claim that he rejected the UN Partition plan could give the impression that you are just mining for quotes and not making a serious argument. Jsolinsky (talk) 18:09, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
The word "accept" has a very common every day use. "Dave proposed that Carol purchase two apples from Becky for a total of $3. Carol accepted." Carol accepted means that she communicated to Dave or Becky or both that she was willing to make this trade. If Becky refuses to give Carol the apples, Carol is under no obligation to pay her the $3. The fact that a transaction fails, does not negate its acceptance. Even if Carol accepted for disingenuous reasons (she expected Becky to refuse and wanted to look good to Dave; she planed on using the transaction to rob Becky) we would still use the word accept to characterize Carol's public agreement. In fact, it is common to argue that somebody has misbehaved because they 1) accepted a deal and then 2) violated the terms of the deal.
To counter the well sourced claim that the Jews accepted the partition proposal, we need sources that explicitly show Jews rejecting that agreement between the time it was proposed and the outbreak of full scale war. Jsolinsky (talk) 18:09, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
anonmoos please keep your OR out of this discussion, the Arsbs flushed nothing down the crapper. That happened when Israel refused to continue negotiations. Stick to the topic please.Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 18:24, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, but the Arabs had handed to them on a silver platter in November 1947 an internationally-guaranteed independent state on much more land than was to be included in the later West Bank + Gaza Strip, and they threw it all away because they preferred to make an all-or-nothing bet, gambling on the (inherently uncertain) outcome of a war. Very little in the period between November 29th 1947 and May 14th 1948 has to do with "negotiations" -- rather both sides were presented with the terms of a deal, and the Arabs thought that they could get better terms than were being offered by going to war, but the outcome of the war turned out to be that they got much worse terms. The Arabs made this choice consciously and deliberately with eyes fully open, and don't have much of anyone to blame in the matter but themselves... AnonMoos (talk) 19:26, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
If you have sources to the effect that Ben Gurion changed his views on partition between 1937 and 1948, feel free to provide them. From the source I linked to above we have also the following quotes:
Gurion in Feb. 1948: "In the Negev we will not buy land. We will conquer it. You are forgetting that we are at war. (Benny Morris, p. 170)"
Gurion in Feb. 1948: "The war will GIVE us the land. The concept of 'ours' and 'not ours' are ONLY CONCEPTS for peacetime, and during war they lose all their meaning." (Benny Morris, p. 170 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 180)
Soon after the U.N. Proposed Partitioning Palestinian in November 1947, Ben-Gurion urged his party to accept the partition because it would never be final, and the borders of the future "Jewish state" would never be static. He said:
"not with regard to the regime, not with regard to borders, and not with regard to international agreements." (Simha Flapan, p. 32)
These quotes deal with borders, there are many more that deal with the issue of transferring Arabs from the nascent state in order to create the desired Jewish majority. That is also an intention to undermine the partition plan, since under the partition plan Israel is only roughly 50% to 60% Jewish. --Dailycare (talk) 19:05, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
That's nice -- however, the Negev was actually in the area assigned to a Jewish state under UNGA 181, and by February 1948 it was absolutely crystal clear that the Arabs had rejected the proposed UNGA 181 deal in favor of war. Furthermore, the simple fact that Peel Plan and UNGA 181 were very different plans offered under very different circumstances ten years apart means that the burden of proof is really on you to provide support for any assertion that any remarks about the Peel Plan can be automatically transferred to UNGA 181. AnonMoos (talk) 19:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
So let me see if I understand you correctly. You're saying I need to prove that Ben Gurion (that's his last name, by the way) "changed his views on partition" when talking about two completely different plans, 10 years apart, suggested by different players, that had different territorial, economic and supervisory terms? Are you serious?
In the meanwhile, you bring quotes that don't talk about partition, and you think they prove what exactly?
Look, if you have sources that say that the Jewish Agency did not accept the Partition Plan, you can post them here, then I'll post a few dozen other sources (including Benny Morris) that say they did, and we can weigh the sources and decide what the article should say. Your personal opinion and interpretation of quotes (some of which you are apparently not even aware talk about a different plan altogether) are not conductive to amending the article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:58, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
The majority of WP:RS agree that Zionist leadership accepted the plan do you say otherwise?--Shrike (talk) 20:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
ShrikeNo More Mr Nice Guy
Indication of acceptance of the plan is not the same as acceptance of the plan. At the very least the Arabs were genuine in expressing rejection of the plan, Which side first acted in a manner inconsistent with any genuine acceptance of the plan is a matter of historical dispute.
All In my view the first sentence in the disputed paragraph in the summary should stand. The paragraph should be amended to read:-
The Jewish community in Palestine, through the Jewish Agency, indicated its acceptanc of the proposed plan; a small minority rejecterd it. The plan was rejected by leaders of the Arab community, including tthe Palestine Arab Higher Committee) who were supported in their rejection by the states of the Arab League.
All Ideally a furthe paragraph should be added:-
Implementation of the plan
The plan was never implemented.
The sadness and tragedy of the whole situation, regardless of whose fault, is summarised in those nine (9) words.Trahelliven(talk) 08:40, 6
January 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but what part of "Acceptance or rejection has nothing to do with the various diverging personal opinions of various individuals, but rather with what was conveyed to UN bodies by recognized community institutions" do you fail to understand?? In any case, the few Arabs who had second thoughts on accepting UNGA 181 didn't express them in public (except for the Stalinist-subservient Communist party), for fear of being labelled traitors to the Arab cause, while prominent individuals in the mainstream Yishuv leadership who had serious reservations about UNGA 181 tended not to express their objections vocally for fear of making the community appear disunited at a critical moment for the establishing of Zionism -- so that there was somewhat of an appearance of community consensus on both sides. AnonMoos (talk) 22:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Some of the commentators here seem to be assuming that the Jewish acceptance of the plan was merely a cover for a secret intent to reject it. While it is possible that some Jewish leaders secretly felt this way, the vast majority of Zionist Jews greeted the UN Resolution with extreme (well documented) Jubilation. It would be supremely difficult to make the case that the Zionists as a whole were not strongly in favor of the plan on an absolute basis. If Ben Gurion had wanted to reject it (doubtful), he would have done well to keep this to himself at the risk of antagonizing a great many Zionists.
Also, recognize that the partition plan was not drafted in a vacuum. Zionists had an enormous impact on the plan, and their enthusiasm for it was no doubt an essential element in UNSCOP's ultimate decision. Were both Jews and Arabs opposed to the plan, it is very unlikely that it would have been approved by UNSCOP (never mind the General Assembly). Jsolinsky (talk) 03:20, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
I have no doubt that the Jewish Agency expressed enthusiasm for the plan. It gave the Jews the best they could have expected from the UN.
1 With one third of the population, the Jewish state got more than half the area of Palestine.
2 On the other hand any further increase in the area allocated for the Jewish state would have brought in mostly Arabs and might have even created an Arab majority. (The balance was about 55% to 45%.) It had the effect of a gerrymander.
This is not to say that the Jewish Agency accepted the plan. It is arguable that from the very start, it wanted more, even if it meant a reduction of the number of Arabs in the Jewish state .Trahelliven(talk) 27:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Many such territorial calculations are ultimately rather shallow and pointless, since the majority of the land area of the Jewish state under UNGA181 consisted of the Negev, with almost no usable agricultural land. In any case, "accept" does not mean "enthusiastically agreed to in every single respect", "accept" means "agreed to as part of an overall compromise deal", as previously discussed above by several people... 07:26, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
What WP:RS support your view and what changes do you want to introduce in to the article?--Shrike (talk) 06:56, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Shrike The disputed paragraph in the introduction should be amended to read:-
The Jewish community in Palestine, through the Jewish Agency, indicated apparent acceptance of the proposed plan. A small minority rejecterd it. The plan was rejected by leaders of the Arab community, (including the Palestine Arab Higher Committee) which was supported in its rejection by the states of the Arab League.
The arguments for the proposition that the Jewish Agency may not have accepted i.e did not really want the plan to be implemented are, in a legal sense cirmcustantial and argumentative. They do not have any place in an encyclopedia that is intended to be impartial. For that reason my suggested amendments are quite bland. The objective fact is that the Jewish Agency indicated apparent acceptance of the plan. The disputed fact is whether that acceptance was genuine. Only a mindreader would really know that.
I might add that the references given that the Jewish Agency accepted the plan are suspect:-.
The Antony Best reference is in a very general book. Without seeing the book itself, I cannot make any further comment.
The Green Line: The Division of Palestine, the sentence at the end of page 45 may be constued as expressing the same quibble of which I have been accued:-
The Zionist leaders are described as "appeared willing to accept the Jewish state as created".
http://books.google.com/books?id=SWqosbsoABwC&pg=PA41#v=onepage&q&f=falseTrahelliven(talk) 20:45, 9
January 2012 (UTC)
What does "apparent" really mean here, other than being your personal little baseball-record-book-style asterisk? AnonMoos (talk) 09:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
I think "indicated acceptance of the plan" is an OK variant ("apparent" not IMO necessary). Concerning the Ben Gurion quote, he's discussing partition as such, not specifically the Peel Plan. The discussion may have then taken place in the context of the Peel Plan, but his thinking is, based on the sources quoted in this thread, clearly that he wanted to "accept" the partition plan as that would give international recognition to the nascent Israel, and then conquer as much land as possible and expel as many Arabs from the land as possible. Ilan Pappé in his book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" writes on page 36 concerning Ben Gurion that "for him and his friends at the top of the Zionist hierarchy, a valid Jewish state meant a state that stretched over most of Palestine and allowed for no more than a tiny number of Palestinians, of any at all, to be included. Similarly, Ben Gurion was unfazed by the resolution's call that Jerusalem be turned into an international city. He was determined to make the entire city his Jewish capital." A reference in the text is made to a speech in Mapai Center in Dec. 1947. Pappé also writes that the rejection of the plan by the Arabs made it much easier for the Zionist side to both "accept" the plan and work against it. --Dailycare (talk) 09:27, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Your opinion on the Ben Gurion quote, while very interesting, is irrelevant to this article which talks about a specific plan, not the one 10 years earlier.
"Indicated acceptance of the plan" is not OK unless you find a source for it. We are not going to weasel word this article because some editors have ideas about what happened in 1947 that are not specifically supported by any source. I don't have access to Pappe's book. What is the exact wording he's using regarding acceptance of the plan? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:27, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
The exact words are "both accept the plan and work against it". Incidentally, we already have in the article Flapan saying that the notion of genuine Zionist acceptance is a myth. --Dailycare (talk) 21:11, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
As I already said above, there was only one way to truly test whether the Jews were sincere in their acceptance of the plan -- that is, for the Arabs to also accept the plan, and to see what then happened. Since that didn't happen, anything else is pretty much pure speculation. In 1948, the Jews certainly "worked against" the possibility of being unilaterally bound by the terms of the plan while the Arabs were free to disregard the plan (something that the Jews had never agreed to). AnonMoos (talk) 05:39, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
All I have deleted the disputed parageaph and substituted. Trahelliven(talk) 17:35, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I have restored it. Your source doesn't directly support the text you put in the article. You removed sourced text. The whole issue is under discussion here and no consensus has emerged yet. Any one of those reasons is enough to make your edit problematic. I suggest you read the bit at the top of this page under the heading "WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES" and understand that this kind of behavior is not tolerated in this topic area. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 08:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I agree with its restoration (although I don't think you need to be harsh with Trahelliven, who seems to be behaving constructively). I support using accept for several reasons:
1. Unlike in the main body, in the introduction I can't think of an alternative phrasing which communicates what we need to.
2. It is very well supported by the literature
3. The bulk of the literature supports the notion that the plan was genuinely accepted.
4. Even if the minority view were correct, the common use of the word "accepted" would still apply. "He accepted $100 for his bicycle, but gave me his sister's bicycle instead".
5. Anyway, I think it is more a question of nuance than right or wrong. Jews accepted the deal (although they felt they they were giving up territory that was legitimately theirs); believed that the Arabs would not honor the deal (because the Arabs explicitly told them this); and wanted to obtain the best deal they could. Their actions and private statements are entirely consistent with that. None of these beliefs and desires were secretive either. You'll note, for example, that they explicitly told the ad hoc committee that after partition they would continue to work towards the incorporation of West Jerusalem in the Jewish state (the implication was that they would do this diplomatically). Negotiating with Abdullah to achieve this was an obvious if not inevitable move.
The way to handle this is to indicate that the Jews accepted the plan, and then incorporate evidence of alternative arrangements into the main body. This is why I don't like the part of the main body that says that Jewish acceptance of the plan was a "myth". The literature which claims this does not actually claim that the Jews rejected the plan. It claims that they Jews desired more than the plan gave them, and that they took action to achieve it. The article should specifically state what those actions were. Calling it a myth does not really inform the reader. Eventually I expect that this article will have a section in which the actual actions of the various parties to implement the agreement (or not) are discussed. Jsolinsky (talk) 13:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't think it's "harsh" to inform an editor who's new to the topic area that these articles are under active arbitration remedies and that his actions might get him in trouble. Not to mention that replacing sourced material with text that is not directly supported by the provided reference while there is obviously no consensus for the change is unacceptable anywhere in wikipedia. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Anonmoos, I'm not sure if I agree with that, since we have documentary sources, for example ones we've already discussed on this thread. (e.g. "Ben-Gurion urged his party to accept the partition because it would never be final") I believe we've spilt quite a bit of ink over a small wording issue, we're after all just discussing whether to say in the lead that the Zionist leadership "accepted" the plan or "signaled acceptance" of the plan. The lead now says they "accepted" more or less so we're discussing whether to change that to signaling acceptance, or to add more text to the effect that there are doubt as to the sincerity of their acceptance. I think in the lead we could be brief and say that they voiced support for the plan or signaled acceptance, but if I read you right, you favour a the longer wording where we say describe the actual plans? --Dailycare (talk) 18:22, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
The literature is clear that the Jews accepted the plan. As far as why they accepted the plan, the literature is full of reasons, many of which are contradictory. But even if they accepted with the specific intent of refusing to honor that acceptance, it would not contradict the fact that they accepted it. I am fine with some discussion of Jewish intentions. Hopefully at some point in the future there will be a well developed section on this. But in the lead, I think that stating that the Jews accepted the plan is clearly the preferred choice. The sources that supposedly question the Jewish acceptance don't actually say that they did not accept. They say that they had bad faith and/or ulterior motives. Jsolinsky (talk) 18:56, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Ok, we can go in that direction. When/if we have more material on the intentions in the article body, we can look at the lead. --Dailycare (talk) 20:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Jsolinsky Thank's for your remark that I am trying to be constructive. We amicably agreed to the amendment and addition to the introduction. May I pay you the same compliment?
All The disputed paragraph contains two references which are suspect:-
The Antony Best reference is in a very general book. Without seeing the book itself, I cannot make any further comment.
I tried to make the wording (indicated acceptance) as bland as possible. I could have used the wording of Cottrell "appeared willing to accept the Jewish state as created". http://books.google.com/books?id=SWqosbsoABwC&pg=PA41#v=onepage&q&f=false. That wording suggests the acceptance was not genuine. I tried to find wording that left the question open.
Here is an argument that the acceptance may not have been genuine:-
1 The Jewish Agency knew that under no circumstances were the Arabs prepared to countenance any form of partition. It was in their tactical interests to indicate acceptance and, when the Plan fell apart, to blame the Arabs and go for broke.
2 The Plan included in the proposed Jewish state as much of Palestine as was possible without giving it an Arab majority. What more could the Jews have expected from the UN?
3 The resultant lack of a contiguous area made the proposed boundaries theoretically indefensible. They argue now that they need to keep parts of the West Bank for security purposes. The situation in 1947 under the Plan was much worse. For security purposes the area in the Plan had to be expanded.
4 After its military success in 1947-1948, Israel might have agreed to revert to the Plan. Instead, it annexed extensive areas originally set aside for the Arab state and refused to allow the return of the refugees.
5 The idea that any part of the Eretz Israel would be barred to Jews is anathema to any committed Zionist. This attitude is confirmed in the insistence since 1967 that the Israeli government is entitled to establish settlements in what is now the West Bank.
6 There is no evidence that Ben-Gurion altered the views he had expressed in 1937.
7 How can you have a Jewish state when only 55% of the poulation is Jewish?
Because all these points are circumstantial and argumentative, they cannot appropriately be included in the Article. They are however sufficiently cogent to justify modifying the disputed paragraph.Trahelliven(talk) 08:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Please read WP:OR. Also, this is the 3rd time or so you've pointed out that Martin Gilbert is Jewish. Where are you going with this? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:53, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
There surely is an argument to be made that acceptance was not genuine. I don't agree with it. But I've read very cogent arguments to that effect. As I've said, I expect that we will eventually have a section on this. NMMNG is right about OR, but plenty of arguments like this have already been published (the future section must come from those published arguments, not our own). But I see acceptance, and the genuine nature of that acceptance as separate issues. We shouldn't need to reach resolution on this to write a quality lede. Jsolinsky (talk) 22:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
We don't need to reach resolution on this because this is not the place to resolve what happened. We write articles according to sources. The vast majority of which say the Jews accepted the plan. This includes people like Ilan Pappe who nobody suspects of being a Zionist. The Jewish Agency accepted and regular Jews went out to the streets to celebrate. These are undisputed facts. If the acceptance was genuine or not, which is a matter of interpretation and speculation does not belong in the lead. It should be given due weight in the article body. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:52, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Resolved
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