Talk:United States National Health Care Act

Rename article

Proposal: This article should be re-named United States National Health Insurance Bill. The content may need slight rewording. An act is not created until a bill passes through congress and has presidential approval.--Tom 22:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

It may be a bill, but the title of the bill is "United States National Health Insurance Act (or the Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act)". 199.125.109.65 18:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Acording to the article there is a smilarly named bill to this that's not quite as all-encomposing, so I think this article should be "Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act" to keep them more clearly separated. Jon 16:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

No. The name that this bill is known by is US National Health Insurance Act. There are no sponsors for the other bill, so it isn't very well known anyway, and it definitely doesn't fit the notability criteria to have it's own article. It is included here for clarification just in case someone does a search for "National Health Insurance". 199.125.109.109 21:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Ubiquity of Single Payer

"The act calls for the creation of a universal single-payer health care system in the United States, the rough equivalent of the United Kingdom's National Health Service and other similar systems in existence in every other industrialized nation; in which the government would provide every resident health care free of out-of-pocket expense, funded instead through U.S. federal taxes." Mordac (talk) 19:13, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Single Payer

The Canadian-style single payer system advocated by Kucinich is not by any manner of means "equivalent to the United Kingdom's National Health Service", as this article erroneously states. The UK has socialized medicine, i.e. a public body that employs and pays the physicians. Kucinich's bill calls for a single national fund from which the physicians are paid for each service they perform for a patient, with the physicians continuing to be employed and salaried by whoever they're employed by now. That's not socialized medicine; that's not the British National Health Service.

The article says single payer is practiced by every industrialized nation except the US. What it should say is that every industrialized nation except the US has universal health care (whether by single-payer or by socialized medicine). 129.93.17.168 (talk) 00:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Money?

Of course, the difficulty involves money, but there seems to be no discussion of this here or even an indication that money is even involved. Democratic Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon was quoted as saying, "We're already spending $2.5 trillion a year...and now we're going to spend another $1 trillion. It just doesn't add up." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Student7 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 19 July 2009

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was not moved. Given that we are supposed to use reliable sources to determine the proper name for an article, and that the Library of Congress is the reliable source when it comes to Congress, this is the correct title for the article. Aervanath (talk) 02:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

---

United States National Health Care Act → United States National Health Insurance Act — I moved this yesterday from the proposed title because it was listed at Wikipedia:Requested moves under "uncontroversial moves", and this was cited as a source for the name of the Act. It seems that this wasn't as uncontroversial as I thought, because Hauskalainen has then disputed the move. If there's no clear consensus on what the name of this article should be, I'm going to move this back to the original name. - Jafeluv (talk) 06:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support. This is the name of the proposed Act as described at its sponsor's web page. Also the article had stood for a very long time on Wikipedia under its original title with no objection. Only one ip user suggested the move and that was at Wikipedia:Requested moves and subsequently actioned. The rename proposal had not even been placed first at the talk page as WP rules says it should. (There was an earlier discussion about the word Act being replaced with Bill, but that was because of my familiarity with English Law which refers to proposed legislation as Bills and which only become Acts one they have passed the legislative hurdless. Maybe this was a false distraction). This alone should be reason to revert immediately. This "survey" is actually unncessary and wrong because a person seeing this request on their watchlist UNDER THIS WRONG NAME will not even realize that the discussion is about the THE BILL UNDER ITS TRUE NAME. Please put the article and links back as they were NOW without waiting. --Hauskalainen (talk) 10:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
  • There's no obligation under Wikipedia rules to discuss uncontroversial moves, and I do believe that the IP thought the move was uncontroversial. Turned out it's not, but it would be a good idea to assume good faith on their part. Since there are at least two editors who disagree on what the article should be called, this survey is certainly not unnecessary. We would still need a discussion about the correct name even if the article was moved back. Since the result will be exactly the same in seven days regardless of where the article was in the meantime, I prefer not to move it unnecessarily. Jafeluv (talk) 10:51, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
    • How can you possibly declare it to be uncontroversial? It was never discussed anywhere! I repeat, many people will not be able to contribute to this discussion because it is now taking place IN ANOTHER PLACE and not the place where it should have been discussed. It should have been discussed at United States National Health Insurance Act but now everything has been moved here. Few people will be aware of that.The article has existed under its proper name for more that 18 months and people have the right to be aware that a move was about to happen and to have been able to challenge it. If you continue to fail to act I will have little option but to appeal to a higher authority.--Hauskalainen (talk) 12:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
      • Actually, since United States National Health Insurance Act was moved here, anyone who has added that article to their watchlist now has this article on their watchlist as well. Also, anyone opening that article will be redirected to this article, and anyone opening its talk page will be redirected to this talk page. Also, this move discussion is linked to from Wikipedia:Requested moves, with both the old and new title clearly visible, so the number of people aware of this discussion would be exactly the same if this had been moved back before opening the move discussion. I encourage you to read my comment you responded to again: nowhere did I declare this move as uncontroversial (quite the opposite, in fact). That's why we need this discussion in the first place. As for the higher authority, you're of course welcome to seek other dispute resolution methods if you feel this discussion is not productive, but in my opinion the first and obvious step would be to discuss the situation with the IP below. For example: You say that the current name of the article is wrong. Why? You listed two sources on my talk page. Are you sure that the Act hasn't actually been renamed, as the IP claims? Jafeluv (talk) 09:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
        • It has, and as noted below the text of the bill was changed to in every place refer to USNHC instead of USNHI. All of the millions of people who have been opposing the bill may want to update their websites and literature and all of the millions of people who have been promoting the bill will need to update their websites and literature. It would have better if the bill had gotten the title right in the beginning, but back then nobody noticed, apparently. It would be interesting to have Wikinews: ask Conyers office why the title was changed. Could be a scoop. 199.125.109.135 (talk) 17:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
        • No I am not sure. But I would have expected the fact to have been discussed at the article BEFORE it was renamed. I have calmed down a bit since we had the previous discussion so I may take no further action.--Hauskalainen (talk) 19:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
          • It wasn't discussed because it didn't seem important. The bill is 99.9+% unchanged. It changed "physicians" to "physicians and other clinicians" in one place and USNHI to USNHC to reflect the bill title change and a few other cosmetic changes, but it really didn't seem important enough to even bring up. 199.125.109.135 (talk) 04:40, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
• Comment. Here is the original request by the IP address. Jafeluv (talk) 10:51, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. To say the least. That "one congressional web site", is the Library of Congress, and is the official record of the text, title, and legislative action of the bill. There is no other site, nor editor who needs to be consulted. It is, as they say, straight from the horse's mouth. However, a phone call to Conyers office and to the hr676.org folks should be sufficient to get them to update their SECONDARY websites. It isn't a miss-print - the text of the bill did not change, but insurance was always a misnomer, and has been corrected. There are many references available from folks who do read, and are cognizant of the change. It is now titled United States National Health Care Act, as it should have been way way back when it was first introduced, as a reading of the bill will show you that the bill does not provide insurance, it provides care. You get to walk into any doctor you want and you pay nothing. That is care not insurance. There are no limits, and no reimbursements like there would be if it was insurance.[1][2] [3][4][5][6][7][8][9] And if those are not enough for you, Google has 13,000 more. Request speedy close, per WP:SNOW. FYI, there are minor changes in the bill, such as everywhere USNHI is replaced with USNHC, and for example "physicians" is replaced in one place that I noticed with "physicians and other clinicians". In general a few things were cleaned up, but there is no substantive difference that I could see, other than recognition that the bill offers care, not insurance - but that is not a result of any change in the bill, it is a recognition rather than a change. 199.125.109.124 (talk) 17:56, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

• Rename to something else. I think it is reasonable to Wikipedia to call it what it is. Clearly either of the above are possible names for H.R. 676 if it becomes law. I think by calling this, and probably a ton of others acts before they are enacted, is misleading. Is there a naming convention that addresses this fact? Maybe the answer is as simple as replacing 'Act' with HR 676. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
  • If this bill becomes law, it will be named the "United States National Health Care Act". This bill being the one introduced into the 111th Congress. The same bill with minor changes was introduced into earlier sessions, with "Insurance" in the title. Conyers website has a page discussing the changes.[10] 199.125.109.58 (talk) 19:50, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• This one may be above my pay grade. I do have some thoughts, though. Proposed legislation, when it's introduced, includes a formal title that usually ends in "Act". On the other hand, until it is enacted, it is a proposed act or a "bill". In the news you see both the usage "the proposed . . . act" and and the usage "the Republican/Democratic . . . bill". Using the formal title would have the advantage that once legislation is passed, the article does not have to be renamed. On the other hand, the article name would not make it clear that it is discussing a legislative proposal rather than enacted legislation. It would be necessary for the lead to make it immediately clear that the subject was a proposal rather than a statute. As far as general usage goes, "proposed . . . act" seems to be the general usage when the formal title is used, and "bill" seems to be the general usage when the bill number (e.g., H.R. 676) is used. EastTN (talk) 14:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
  • The infobox for bills has a long list of sections to indicate status. I won't list them here, but if you look at the article you can see they are all blank, or most of them, as is normal for a bill that has not been passed yet. 199.125.109.135 (talk) 18:30, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No NPOV

I have been trying to find a source that will present only the facts of this bill without trying to sell me something. All the NEWS websites are either trying to push this or kick it. I was hoping Wikipedia would present a neutral point of view, but this is definitely geared towards selling the bill. The administrators need to tag this article with the "No NPOV" badge, till the situation is resolved. Bshengan (talk) 01:54, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Please be more specific in your criticism. I have moved the neutrality dispute to the debate section. The first few sections are just facts similar to other healthcare articles, so the debate section is probably giving rise to the issue.Farcaster (talk) 02:46, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I've significantly rewritten the section also, so please take another look.Farcaster (talk) 05:12, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

AMA

While the AMA took a position on Medicare 40 years ago, Medicare has long ago been embraced and is now highly popular. The AMA's position on health care[11] is that doctors be the ones to make decisions with their patients on care, not the government, and what they call "Health insurance coverage for all Americans", though in practice that would be HR 676 and be "health care" for all Americans, not "health insurance" for all Americans. They also, of course, want an elimination of the discounts for Medicare payments, which have led many physicians to avoid taking Medicare patients. 199.125.109.115 (talk) 14:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Sections and Related articles on Current Debate in desperate need of overhaul

I have added this note to all major articles related to the current healthcare reform debate.

As the information in the articles such as this dealing with specific proposals are more up to date, the information should be added to the comprehensive articles, and in general all articles related to the current healthcare debate need to complement each other.

The comprehensive articles on the current healthcare debate desperately need to be overhauled and expanded. There is practically nothing in those articles about the ongoing major events around the current debate, a subject area that is absolutely required.

I recently created a WikiProject page to gather and discuss the overhaul effort: Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Current Health Care Reform in the United States

Please discuss anything not pertaining specifically to this article on the WikiProject talk page.

NittyG (talk) 04:49, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

UK is not single payer

"The act calls for the creation of a universal single-payer health care system in the United States, the rough equivalent of Canada's Medicare and the United Kingdom's National Health Service."

The NHS is not single payer. It falls under the Beverage Model of health care, totally different than National Health Insurance. Keep that in mind when writing future articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.72.134.141 (talk) 04:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Bias of the Opening Paragraph

"The national system would be paid for through taxes, which would replace insurance premiums. Advocates of single-payer healthcare, such as economist Paul Krugman, have argued that by eliminating insurance company administrative overhead, healthcare costs would be reduced sufficiently to cover the uninsured.[1] One study estimated U.S. private insurer administrative costs at 30% of total healthcare costs, versus 17% for the single-payer Canadian system.[2]"

The introduction cites a study that argues for the monetary advantage of the bill, but does not give any counter evidence. This breaches the Wikipedia policy on neutrality, and I propose that this is either taken out or that evidence in the favor of the monetary disadvantage of the healthcare bill is given. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jleedm (talk • contribs) 16:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

lead intro

@Sarek in particular.... rv to my previous 'expanded' edit- please do not keep reverting things without discussion on the talk page; my edits are not meant solely for my own ego, but also to spur discussion. Kikodawgzzz (talk) 17:22, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

You were BOLD, I reverted -- now we discuss, instead of repeating the reverts. For one thing, the very first line is wrong -- HR 676 is not the legal name of the act, it's the catalog designation for this particular Congress. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:41, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

House Resolution 676

Currently House Resolution 676 redirects to this page. This redirect has been nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2011 January 18#House Resolution 676 because "The bill in question was a regular bill, not a House Resolution".

When researching the term, I found that (inaccurate or not), the bill is widely referred to by this name (29 of the top 30 google web hits, 30 of the top 30 google news archive hits). Editors here might want to note this use of inaccurate terminology by the media and others in the article, particularly if the redirect is kept (the discussion will most likely be closed on or shortly after 25 January). Your comments on the redirect are of course welcome at the above link. Thryduulf (talk) 13:14, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

• I do not believe that this particular hatnote would be a benefit to our readers. The distinction between the abbreviation HR and H.Res. is technical to the point of pedantic, in my opinion. Nor is the mistake unique to this particular bill. Many bills are mischaracterized as House Resolutions based on the ambiguity of their acronym. A minor footnote might be in order but a clunky hatnote at the top of the page is going to be more of a distraction than a help to the average reader. Rossami (talk) 14:19, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
  • The distinction between H.R. and H.Res. is not "technical" or "pedantic" — they identify totally different types of items under consideration in the U.S. House of Representatives. H.R. items are actual bills, which can pass the house, go on to the Senate, get passed there, and go on to the president; if he/she signs the bill, it becomes law. H.Res. items are House resolutions, which never go on to the Senate or the president and never become law. They merely express the sentiment of the House of Representatives on some topic. H.R. and H.Res. are not acronyms and they are not ambiguous. If someone searches for House Resolution 676, the best thing in my opinion would be a short article explaining what a House Resolution is and that the numbers start at 1 again with every two-year session of Congress, and that H.R. 676 of the 111th Congress is the United States National Health Care Act. Why? because people who got to United States National Health Care Act don't need the civics lesson on resolutions vs. bills, but people who enter "House resolution" looking for a bill need to be informed that House resolutions are not bills. Otherwise the error perpetuates. —Anomalocaris (talk) 18:42, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

On the polling section

I cleaned up some accuracy issues on the polling section, which was largely distorting the evidence it was using. Specifically talking about "national health insurance" during the timeframe that the United States was discussing the so-called "public option" is not an implication regarding single payer, for instance. There are a few more issues that come up in light of this:

• The infographic provided is misstating the NYT poll completely. The poll does not show that much support for single payer, but for a "willing[ness] to pay higher taxes so everyone could have health insurance" that would compete with private plans - decidedly not single payer.[12] With this in mind, I have removed the infographic.
• The first line shows 78% support for single payer according to FAIR citing a 1987 poll - do we have access to that poll anywhere? If we cannot see the actual poll, given the problems with polling on this issue, I'm not sure we should include that line at all.

Hopefully this helps. Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:19, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

The NYT poll seems to be asking about single payer as it is a plan "like medicare" and the article itself uses "Government-Run Health", the "willingness to pay higher taxes" is obviously in the context of the plan. We could ask for a third opinion but it seems overwhelmingly a poll about single-payer.

That aside, the part about national healthcare being "often times compared to Medicare" is redundant because A) Medicare is a form of single-payer for a specific group of people and B) it's covered in the next section. --CartoonDiablo (talk) 16:06, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

The issue is that the question was in the context of the health care bill and the public option. Having insurance is not having Medicare, and having something to compete with private plans, which is the contextual clue, is not single payer. As what they're describing is not single-payer, and is not defined as single-payer, I'm not convinced we should be treating the information as if it's about single-payer, especially when we can find polls, such as the Rasmussen and the details at politifact. Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:21, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

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