Talk:Ununseptium

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Converted[edit]

Elementbox converted 12:21, 15 July 2005 by Femto (previous revision was that of 17:58, 2 June 2005).

Vote for Deletion (2004)[edit]


from VfD:

Delete. Fancruft. Stub about an element that has not been discovered and about which nothing is known. Trollminator 17:46, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Keep official IUPAC assignment - therefore something on wich the whole chemical science community agrees - therefore legitimate. --Musschrott 18:02, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
That doesn't make it notable for the vast majority of users. There are other places for sciencecruft fans to talk about this. Trollminator 19:06, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"sciencecruft"? Strong keep. It's an accurate factual summary of the current state of knowledge regarding an unsynthesised element. Elements are inherently encyclopedic (although you could possibly argue for a single page on "miscellaneous transuranics"); it "exists" in that we know it to be possible, we have a broad idea of its properties, we have an offically-standardised name for it. Shimgray 19:20, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Simply being factual is not enough to demonstrate notablity. In any event, this element does not exist. It's pure speculation by fans. Non-notable. Trollminator 19:22, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Keep, it's on any good periodic table. -- user:zanimum

Keep DCEdwards1966 19:49, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

  • Very weak keep.delete I didn't find any authoratative hits (EG university, international standards organization, or government site) until page NINE of the google hits, where I found it on a periodic table from the University of South Dakota[1]. Note that page 4 of the hits had it used in a work of science fiction. Niteowlneils 20:08, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    Note that it is NOT on this Canadian gov't periodic table[2], tho' Ununoctium is. Niteowlneils 20:13, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. "Fans"? I do believe the poster is living up to his or her name. --jpgordon{gab} 20:22, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • This is sciencecruft. The 'whole chemical science community' does not agree. An element cannot be officially named until it is discovered. This has not been, it is someone's speculation about what it might be like if it was discovered. Trollminator 20:29, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Try Googling 'IUPAC Ununseptium' - all you get are Wikipedia mirrors - there are no official or credible sites reporting this. Trollminator 20:35, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • So, to be credible... you know, there's a reason no-one uses "ununseptium", and that's that there are other, simpler, ways of referring to it. [3] - Physical Review C, where the first paper listed was published, is certainly a reputable journal. Why would a site have to use the specific terms "IUPAC" and "ununseptium" to be valid? You can have a perfectly reputable discussion of a minor asteroid, by name, without ever mentioning the IAU or the Minor Planets Center... Shimgray 21:09, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Note that none of these "unun___" placeholders appear on the IUPAC periodic table[4], and searching the Official IUPAC site gets zero hits for "ununseptium"[5]. Niteowlneils 21:04, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Abstain. Not sure what Trollminator is up to, but don't care. I don't believe it's sciencecruft, because by and large I think science is encyclopedic. I am, however, concerned that it is describing something that is as of yet theoretical, and unlike some other parts of science that speculate on the unverifiable, this is not an essential piece of theory that fits into something else. I'm not sure that, as it stands now, it merits an encyclopedia article with speculations on its characteristics. If you think you have a good argument as to if it should stay or go, note that it might not be hard to convince me to change my vote. Note that I wanted to make a joke about unobtainium, but I couldn't figure out how. *sigh* --Improv 21:08, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Possible ways of looking at it (I'll agree that element-117 is the weakest) -
a) several papers have been published on it (I can find half-a-dozen on a quick glance through scholar.google.com, but a proper lit search would find more) - do we have articles on other predicted-but-not-yet-found things? Not sure.
Sure do. Try e.g. 2010 or 22nd century. And then at Sasquatch and Loch Ness Monster. Undiscovered (in same cases merely unnamed) chemical elements trump each of these in terms of established acceptance in the field. - [[User:KeithTyler|Keith D. Tyler [flame]]] 22:00, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)
I'd forgotten those obvious examples... Higgs boson and graviton as well. It's also notable that the criteria apparently being applied is "has it been formally named by IUPAC yet", which would mean that Roentgenium magically became notable a month ago despite nothing new being known about it - there's functionally no difference between our level of knowledge of Rg or Uub, and an arbitrary classification like this isn't helpful. The name does not make the man, as it were... Shimgray 23:24, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
b) we're being asked to establish a threshold of notability for elements. As it is, all elements are treated as notable, including those which have not yet been synthesised but will (plausibly) be soon. So we're going to end up with a list of elements with almost everything broken out, but two or three - like this - which aren't notable enough... so what do we do with them? There's some information here, not much... but we have been able to broadly predict (or decent) characteristics of these high-number elements, and that information ought to be kept along with that of the lower ones. In a way it seems simpler just to keep (uninformative) pages for these ones than to try and establish a critera (note that we're also being asked to consider elements synthesised several years ago, detected by independent groups, about which a moderate amount is known as unencyclopedic). Shimgray 21:20, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC) (I had two others, but have forgotten them. Updates may follow. <g>)
    • I disagree. To suggest that element 117 cannot or may not exist would contradict established assumptions about atomic structures. There is no scientific reason that it would not be a feasibly created element. - [[User:KeithTyler|Keith D. Tyler [flame]]] 00:31, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. [[User:GRider|GRider\talk]] 21:30, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Take a look at the last section of these IUPAC recommendations: 4.4 Interim names Prior to and during the naming process, the element may be referred to by its atomic number, as in ?element 118? or by its provisional systematic name, ?ununoctium?. If a symbol is needed, the systematic, provisional three-letter symbol should be used --jpgordon{gab} 21:48, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, and note statement at IUPAC: Until discoveries are confirmed, elements are provisionally designated in terms expressing their atomic numbers in Latin, for example "ununnilium" (one-one-zero for 110), "unununium" (one-one-one for 111), and "ununbium" (one-one-two for 112). from [6]. - [[User:KeithTyler|Keith D. Tyler [flame]]] 22:00, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)
  • Summarily cancel all similar VFD submissions for articles on as-yet-unnamed chemical elements and other accepted chemical theory by Trollminator. - [[User:KeithTyler|Keith D. Tyler [flame]]] 22:00, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, although this is clearly not as notable as many things that do get deleted. Do not remove vfd notices before the normal period however, unless you want other (cough) controversial deletions also removed. There is a process, let it run. Mark Richards 22:25, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep fvw* 23:06, 2004 Nov 24 (UTC)
  • Keep, quite encyclopedic indeed. Antandrus 00:21, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep althought article could describe better the element's so far theoretical nature - Skysmith 08:04, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Clearly encyclopedic. Abuse of VfD. jni 09:20, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep the article. Delete the VfD kiddie. [[User:Radman1|RaD Man (talk)]] 15:27, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Jayjg 21:44, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. How is this fancruft?! --Idont Havaname 01:01, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Strong keep for the same reasons mentioned by me in ununbium. --Andrew 20:06, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep [[User:Squash|Squash (Talk)]] 06:37, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. ("Fans"?) —tregoweth 18:32, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)
    • Time to print up some Ununoctium T-shirts! Who's with me? - [[User:KeithTyler|Keith D. Tyler [flame]]] 22:22, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep --Blade Hirato 03:18, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep Scientific elements are noteworthy, even the ones not discovered yet. Besides it is only a question of time before this is discovered. Once a better name than "ununseptium" is assigned this element, (e.g. Meitnerium used to be called "unnillenium") redirect to the new element name. 129.177.61.124 09:03, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

end moved discussion

Discovered?[edit]

According to [this site], two isotopes of element 117 have been synthesised but I can find no other info. Can someone verify? Reyk 09:58, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Those entries are theoretical data. One can quite reliably infer some properties from systematic trends, these are listed here, it does not necessarily mean they're backed by experiments. Femto 12:53, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

When will ununseptium be discovered? Cosmium 22:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

It has been discovered by somebody in Russia in 2009.58.187.27.21 (talk) 09:13, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Please quote a source if you update the article. William Avery (talk) 10:39, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

It have been discovered. Where are you from, William Avery? If you are Russian you must know about that. I think you're American. Final sentence: element 117 have been discovered.58.187.50.32 (talk) 10:07, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

In what reliable source can I verify your claim? William Avery (talk) 14:15, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
The New York Times [7] has an article pertaining to its synthesis. The article has already been updated, not by me. Ovangle (talk) 02:16, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The information of Uus is hypothetical[edit]

Look this page: apsidium - ununseptium here, at the bottom, you can read that ununseptium has NOT been produced. In some sites you can find hypotetical isotopes for Uus.

atomic mass?[edit]

How can the atomic mass be known if the element has not been made? Olin

  • Good question... But now it has been discovered and it was reported that 5 of the six observed nuclei had A=293 and one nucleus had A=294. Should we change "Standard atomic weight" to 293? -- Ace111 (talk) 22:23, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

No. The Standard Atomic Weight for a radioactive element is the mass number (or atomic weight) of the most stable isotope. For now, this is 294117.--Drjezza (talk) 20:05, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Not[edit]

Uus is NOT discovered.--Daniel bg 13:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Now it is. --Whoop whoop pull up (talk) 23:31, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

please[edit]

Can we keep the discussion related to Ununseptium? It's already known that it hasn't been discovered, so we don't care.Therequiembellishere 02:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Properties[edit]

The article says it's physical properties will differ significantly from lighter halogens. My spidey sense tells me that it should be NOT differ significantly (other than what can be expected from rapid decay elements) from other halogens chemically. If that's accurate, it would be worthwhile to note why or cite an online source that can be further reviewed.

There is a cite to an online source (just search it for "117"). That online source is based on calculations (deriving properties from the physics - wave equations and such), rather than "spideysense". There might be better sources (for example, review articles are easier than primary sources, if we can find relevant ones). But there is no need to fall back on uninformed guesses, when people have been doing these kinds of computations for decades. Kingdon 20:58, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, it goes against prima facie evidence or there is no explanation and it appears to be a typo. You haven't addressed the issue I've raised. The cited sources you mention actually agree with me that this element should behave like a halogen unlike what this article says. I was using a figure of speech and not being clear, granted, but I must say that there is a consistency issue based on what you mention. Johngagon 05:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, I looked again at the article. At least the part I found (page 76), made a rather narrow prediction - about bond lengths - so I have revised the article to just talk about that and not discuss things we don't seem to have good sources for. Kingdon 20:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Retracted report of existence[edit]

There's been a claim made of the synthesis of Uus but it was later retracted. It's mentioned in the Uuo article, but is relevant here too. Not sure how to work it in. DMacks (talk) 18:37, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The article includes a typo. It should read 116 not 117. Element 117 has not been observed or referred to as yet.--Drjezza (talk) 21:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


Future experiments[edit]

The reference [1] given does not mention attempts to produce Uus next month, as far as I can see. Does someone have a valid reference for this claim? --Roentgenium111 (talk) 14:26, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Half-life[edit]

The introduction claims a half-life of three nanoseconds, whereas the main text says "0.1-40 ms". While I am not entirely sure how to read the second number, there appears to be a contradiction here. The 3ns is uncited. --KarlFrei (talk) 10:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

ms = milliseconds. Someone the Person (talk) 23:10, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Naming[edit]

I can't find an article on IUPAC element naming for some reason. When this element is discovered and named, will it follow the "-ine" trend for all elements in the period, or have they stopped that? It'd be good to have in the article.--Tim Thomason 07:37, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Duly discussed and added --Drjezza (talk) 20:41, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Formula error?[edit]

In the formula, unless I'm misunderstanding, it lists element 116 as Uus. Isn't element 116 Uuh? Or is that supposed to be 294 over 117? --76.197.2.172 (talk) 18:36, 18 July 2009 (UTC) Yes, element 116 is Uuh and element 117 is Uus. BlueEarth (talk | contribs) 20:58, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Discovery in 2010[edit]

The references given are only saying that they will have it untll end of the year 2009. --Stone (talk) 10:32, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Ref3 : The new element is expected to be synthesized by the end of this year
  • Ref4 : U400 and U400M ACCELERATORS OPERATING SCHEDULE 2010
  • Ref5 : Russian physicists are trying to synthesize a new chemical element 117

So where is a ref for the fact mentioned in the lead?--Stone (talk) 10:50, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Just added a reference which is an internal PAC report from Dubna stating that their scientists succeeded in discovering element 117. It does not say if it was in 2009 or 2010 but the experiment began in July 2009 and ended in Feb 2010 so it was almost certainly first detected in 2009. We will have to wait for more information.--Drjezza (talk) 11:13, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Soory, but this internal communication looks a little bit thin for a announcement here. No mainstream sites picked up the story yet.--Stone (talk) 12:57, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Although the sources may indeed be true, there is a slight problem with using only sources that were published by the synthesizing team: they have an obvious conflict of interest and they are not the ultimate authority to determine if their results are valid or not. If the only available sources supporting this supposed synthesis are internal, then we would be jumping the gun by definitively stating that the element had been synthesized. We would be much better off by simply stating that they have reported the synthesis and waiting until we hear more definitive news on the matter. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 05:45, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Cryptic C62, we should not call Uus discovered until there is an independent source confirming it. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 17:28, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Or, at the very least, a published paper in a peer-reviewed journal. Physchim62 (talk) 21:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Ununseptium has been discovered. Why is there still controversy? --Ferocious Flying Ferrets 01:23, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
NY Times announces that the pape has been accepted for publication. I've edited the article slightly to reflect that. Anyone interested in taking this to WP:ITN/C? howcheng {chat} 05:16, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Don't trust the NYT, go to the source: accepted papers on the physical review letters site.
Synthesis of a new element with atomic number Z=117
Yu. Ts. Oganessian et al.
Accepted Monday Apr 05, 2010
The discovery of a new chemical element with atomic number Z=117 is reported. The isotopes 293117 and 294117 were produced in fusion reactions between 48Ca and 249Bk. Decay chains involving eleven new nuclei were identified by means of the Dubna Gas Filled Recoil Separator. The measured decay properties show a strong rise of stability for heavier isotopes with Z 111, validating the concept of the long sought island of enhanced stability for super-heavy nuclei.
Setreset (talk) 09:45, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Naming (again)[edit]

The article says that the name will probably end in -ium per IUPAC, but the linked article says that's the rule for metallic elements. Uus is a halogen, so the discoverers might go with xxx-ine. Vicki Rosenzweig (talk) 15:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The linked article does say that all new elements should end in "-ium" on its 4th page. (The article only quotes a 1953 convention that metallic elements should end in "-ium" (on 3rd page), but it makes up the more general rule later. It's a little confusing.) BTW, it's not clear if Uus is a halogen. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 15:57, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Uus is a halogen by definition, at least for the moment. We don't know if it's chemistry is similar to the other halogens, but I guess, one day, we might find out! Physchim62 (talk) 13:28, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
No, it's only a group 17 element by definition, this does not make it automatically a halogen, according to the article on Halogen:

"The halogens or halogen elements are a series of nonmetal elements from Group 17 of the periodic table, comprising fluorine (F), chlorine (Cl), bromine (Br), iodine (I), and astatine (At). The artificially created element 117, provisionally referred to by the systematic name ununseptium, may also be a halogen."

(emphasis mine) - it's not known if Uus is a nonmetal. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 16:13, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Element117 is an odd Z element, and would accordingly have OE and/or OO isotopes, depending on the number of extra neutrons reemitted. The data shows isotope no 294, which would have 177 neutrons, and would thus be an OO and was reported to have the longest halflife. The 177 neutrons could also be counted as being 117 paired neutrons plus 60 extra neutrons. The alternative isotope was No 293, which would be an OE with 176 total neutrons and 59 extra neutrons.WFPM (talk) 00:47, 13 April 2010 (UTC)PS It is, however, the next to the last element of the 2nd rare earth series (notwithstanding it's location in the standard periodic table) and is a cogener of 85At Astatine, and accordingly should be a nonmetal.WFPM (talk) 20:27, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Among the elements in general, it is unusual for an OO isotope to have a relatively high stability with relation to the other isotopes of an element. However in the case of the second rare earth series, several of the odd Z elements are noted to have a high relative stability. The last OO element with a long stability halflife is OO71Lu 176, which is the first element of the third transition metal series, and it is not as stable as it's lesser isotope OELu175, which has a 97.4% constituency.WFPM (talk) 21:04, 13 April 2010 (UTC

If a person wanted to speculate on a reason for the reported increased stability of OO isotopes in this heavy isotope area he might consider that the first stabilizing process occurring to the combined nucleus is that of physically dumping off of some of the loosest bound nucleons (the excess neutrons) in order to dissipate some of the excitation energy, and that this physical process might easier achieve a dynamic balance with an even A numbered OO isotope than with an odd A numbered OE isotope, and that this would be particularly true in the case of the large heavy isotopes.WFPM (talk) 04:02, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

A perhaps simpler explanation is that for most of the superheavy elements, the heaviest isotope is reported to be the most stable, so even heavier isotopes may be more stable than the ones synthesised. It has been predicted (see the article) that by the time you get to the OE isotope Uus-337, the half-lives may even get to 1016 a! (Uus-337 would have 103 more neutrons than protons.) Double sharp (talk) 09:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Ionic[edit]

As this element would be a metalloid, could you get a positively charged ion and a negatively charged ion of it to form an ionic bond? 174.30.204.110 (talk) 21:13, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

We're not even sure if it would be a metalloid. Relativistic effects tend to override periodic trends in this region of the periodic table. Double sharp (talk) 12:42, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ununseptium/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Canadian Paul (talk · contribs) 17:00, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll give this one a look later tonight. In the meantime, I do notice that reference #3 is dead. Canadian Paul 17:00, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

  • Yes check.svg Done I simply removed the ref – the statement was cited by another, more reliable ref anyway. Double sharp (talk) 06:52, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Comments:

  1. Per WP:LEAD, the lead should not introduce material that is not present in the body of the article. The fact that it is "is the second heaviest element of all created" is currently not in the article.
    • Yes check.svg Done Kept in the lead, also placed in the "Nuclear stability and isotopes" section. Double sharp (talk) 15:54, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
  2. There's a deletion discussion going on for File:DecayChain Ununseptium.svg, which needs to be resolved prior to this article passing for GA status (unless the image is removed from the article of course)
    • Yes check.svg Done Original image deleted. Current one is a redraw (thanks Materialscientist!) of that image and is thus OK to use (as the data in that image is free and only the image itself wasn't). Double sharp (talk) 12:47, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
  3. Under "Pre-discovery", first paragraph, "The difference of 8 between the two kinds of nucleons is extremely rare for stable and near-stable atoms, with the next one being zinc-68" What do you mean by "the next one"? This could use some clarification.
  4. Please rectify all citation-needed tags (there's one in the first paragraph of "Pre-discovery")
  5. Under "Discovery", second paragraph, "289Uup, one of ununseptium's daughters, was created in a different way in 2011, however, yet it matched the claimed properties during the discovery." I find this sentence to be a bit confusing... what claimed properties is it matching? (Maybe just explain it here and I can figure out if it's me or the article that is confused)
    • Yes check.svg Done Decay properties – I've made it clearer. Double sharp (talk) 06:21, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
  6. Under "Nucleus stability and isotopes", first paragraph, "While the first 40 elements may turn out to be perfectly stable, 40 more can decay, but still have at least one isotope not shown to decay, and another four certainly decay, yet are primordial (i.e., present on the Earth since its formation), the stability of nuclei decreases with the increase in atomic number greatly thereafter, so that all isotopes with an atomic number above 101 decay radioactively with a half-life under a day, with an exception of 268Db." This sentence is way too long and confusing. It needs to be split up into at least two.
    • Yes check.svg Done Cut the first part of the sentence. It wasn't really that relevant and was confusing. Double sharp (talk) 06:21, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
  7. Under "Predicted atomic, physical, and chemical properties", first paragraph, "Certain chemical properties, however, are predicted to differ from what one would expect based on periodic trends from the lighter halogens because of relativistic effects" requires a citation as this is material that could be challenged.
    • X mark.svg Not done Doesn't need a citation – the paragraphs below give (cited) examples. Double sharp (talk) 06:21, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
  8. Same section, second paragraph, "In its free form the element is thought to form dimeric molecules, just like the other halogens." Since the average reader isn't going to know what "dimeric molecules" are, there should be either an explanation or some appropriate wikilinking here.

The article did need a major copyedit, which I performed, but I'll have to look over it again once the issues above have been dealt with. To allow for these issues to be addressed I am placing the article on hold for a period of up to a week. I'm always open to discussion so if you think I'm wrong on something leave your thoughts here and we'll discuss. I'll be checking this page at least daily, unless something comes up, so you can be sure I'll notice any comments left here. Canadian Paul 23:24, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

  • THe article needs to cover this. Nergaal (talk) 04:05, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Yes check.svg Done Added it. Double sharp (talk) 14:57, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Agreed of course; was going to give that a check after the rest had been dealt with, but thanks for taking care of it! As for the nominator, just let me know when you want me to take another look. Canadian Paul 14:18, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Under "Discovery", I'd be interested in knowing what the "different way" of creating the daughter was, as well as why they chose not to submit a claim to to IUPAC, but of course I can't ask you to include information that's not available in reliable sources. If it is out there, however, that might be a useful addition. Also I noticed that you write "second heaviest" but "second-lightest" - the use (or absence) of the dash in these cases should be standardized in the prose. In any case, I now believe that the article meets the Good Article criteria and thus I will be passing it as such. Congratulations and thank you for all your work! Canadian Paul 19:03, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. :-) Actually, R8R Gtrs did most of the work, but stopped when the article seemed very close to GA to me, so I just fixed the remaining issues and asked for a GA review.
About your remaining points: changed to "second-heaviest" throughout. Any remaining instances of the unhyphenated version can safely be regarded as having been overlooked by me and can be changed. ;-)
Finally, you need confirmation to have a reasonable chance of getting the discovery officially acknowledged at IUPAC, which they didn't have until this year. See this paper by IUPAC for IUPAC's discovery criteria. I'll try to find the synthesis method for the daughter (Uup-289) and add it. Double sharp (talk) 05:28, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
I found the synthesis method for Uup-289, but did not include it because it would clutter the article (the equations take up a lot of space, and the inline equivalents are hard to understand without explanation). The method was Am-243 + Ca-48 → Uup-289 + 2 n, and is on the ununpentium article already. Double sharp (talk) 13:28, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

To do (from hidden comments)[edit]

  • More about SO interactions (R8R Gtrs says he wants to do that)
  • Why IUPAC defined halogens as only F, Cl, Br, I, At
  • More about subshell splitting
  • Explain terminology in "Chemical" section

Double sharp (talk) 13:49, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Some thoughts to explain the points, they were "notes to self" as of writing and don't contain all of the thoughts. Since you got into here, you should find out what I think about those:
Subshell splitting is a major consequence from SO interactions, another one being the extremely strong inert pair effect. I think it could take a whole separate subsection to explain it well (2-4 paras). To get a good explanation other articles (especially its neighbor, ununoctium) could be jealous of :) What worries me is that the Physical subsection may get too short otherwise. The neighbor is more studied :( the elements in the end of the period lose some researches compared to the mysterious 112, 114, 118 (thought to complain about it in the article, now think I won't). Also, if the inert pair effect is announced that early, we may lose a good surprise point further in the article (the one about five electrons in the valence core). Don't wanna move it either... These are in particular the reasons why this hasn't been done by now.
I didn't mean a IUPAC definition (they don't think it is a halogen because they don't even think it exists; we may reserve a sentence for that, though). More like in general. Again, have done some rethinkings. I think now we shouldn't call it a (potential) halogen, instead maybe even distinguish it from "the five halogens." Not get deep into the topic. Much would be emptier-than-seems text.
About terminology. You got it right (I think). I used to think we could utilize a big center-aligned table with properties of the halogens and 117. Don't want it now too, and it's not me being a lazyass. I think it should be too big to be fine, and small one doesn't draw the picture. Some of comparative examples (a reader is not expected to have an intuitive understanding what a Debye is) could be given right in the text, for example as a parenthesized note like (for comparison, that of ... Is ...).

Drawing[edit]

Copypasted here from talkpage User Talk:Double sharp [8]. -DePiep (talk) 07:06, 17 October 2012 (UTC)


Hey, congrats about your Mt GAN coming successful. I wanted to know, can you draw me a graph for ununseptium? I would do it myself, but I can't reach the computer, and most probably won't be able to any soon. It doesn't have to be very cool or vector, but we gotta have a base, which can hang out for a while before we get an upgrade from the Graphic Lab. Just listen to what is needed. Not gonna be complicated. Basically, I need something like this ( http://books.google.ru/books?id=QbDEC3oL7uAC&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127&dq=Re+trend+HI+HAt+H117&source=bl&ots=S4hksKcjBK&sig=bFbp0ra8N1qSHFVR_p-m2MV65hI&hl=ru&sa=X&ei=OsftT8G3IcSq-Abi2IS3Dg&ved=0CEsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=117&f=false , p. 146). That's a good base. We don't need Tl and 113, but At and 117 are what is needed. Then have a look at this paper ( http://scitation.aip.org/journals/doc/JCPSA6-ft/vol_115/iss_6/2456_1.html?bypassSSO=1 ), it has the data in Fig. 1 through 3, the rightmost column, of course (s and p being identical to what is given in the book, they cite this data, but I want d-electrons also. Dunno why. Think I'll mention them, in very short, so having them on a pic is fine as well. Just to draw a complete picture of the SO interactions.) This pic will have some useful data, like p1/2--p3/2 gap (I thought the figure in the article body would be too geeky, but a Neergal comment convinced me.) There's nothing else to write about anyway! They say, if you can contract a speech into a word, do it, but I don't take it. While there's no formal lower size limit for FAC, just mention the main things, I think that it should be, not formally, but... It just should. This also helps reader not to think of what it would be, but also why. And it matters. We can afford that, we got the room. And while this is kinda geeky, there are people who won't read the stuff anyway, running away, because they don't understand things like radioactive decay. I aim at readers one single level above that (most popular science authors do). Those who wanna learn not only about this only element, but the whole concept applying to the near elements also, while not expecting, and we're giving them the surprise. If they take it, they'll love it. This is helpful. (Wow, I have to write a single para more (or even less) and get one more pic, but need so many words... Could've done it by now maybe, but it's late (more chat-moody than wikiwork-moody) and will still need the pic anyway... What I was to, I'll try to have the writing done by the weekend)

So I need the pic to illustrate.. If you can't do it, then please outsource the work to someone else (DePiep may be helpful, not asking him in the first place, because doing this thing in a perfect way is an even harder thing, he won't do it any different, and I won't be able to pay him back. Choose whoever you trust.) Just without this skeleton, it may be imperfect, that's okay, it's gonna be a long thus hard task everyone's feeling to lazy to do. A "vectorize" request is easier to fulfill, we will need less time overall. And, well, the article won't even be bad without it... But will be slightly even cooler with it.

Can't really reach the computer. Didn't forget about your alkali metal request... I'm just busy, I remember, and when I have time, I'll help. Thanks--R8R Gtrs (talk) 20:25, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll dive into this, by Ds request. Let us check:
  • The first book drawing is fig. 330 on page 146. We leave out two column: (113) and Tl. Dimension and unit of the vertical axis is: "Energy (au)" right?
  • How do the three data figures relate to the main one? E.g. in main the Al 6s bar is at about -95 (au?). Is that corresponding with the full line bar Spfr–DHF from figure 1?
we need the DHF values, and only them. The values in the book are exactly these DHF values, because they books uses the paper as a source.
  • Do we use the L-L values at all? What with the forked lines, and the dotted lines in the figure?
The dotted or solid lines... The only thing they are useful for is that they mean what lines correspond to what elements (see Fig 3 for example -- we don't need the two upper lines, they are for Tl and 113. The lower ones are a solid one (At; the book has a bad font, but it's an "At," not an "Al.") and a dotted one (Uus or 117). We don't need the whole lines, only the values from the DHF column. For the currently missing d-lines, they would be 5d5/2 (upper) and 5d3/2 (lower) for At (6d5/2 and 6d3/2 for 117).) The lines, as you understand, are just links for a value to a value.
I see. Will add. -DePiep (talk) 07:35, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Proposed image name on WP: File:Valence nsnp atomic energy levels for group 13 and 17 atoms.svg (edit here while it's red).
  • Energy: "au" is "Hartree atomic units"?
  • Figure caption (in the graph): "Valance nsnp atomic energy levels"? And group number in column header, like "Al (group 13)")?
  • Source: (to be completed later on) cite book: |url=[9] | title=Challenges and advances in computational chemistry and physics|editor= | author=J. Styszińsky | chapter=3| page=146

-DePiep (talk) 07:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC) More. -07:55, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Better take the Faegri paper instead (the book doesn't have the d electron value, the paper does).
Valence nsnp atomic energy levels for group 13 and 17 atoms
Refining questions.
  • First drawing. Don't worry about font issues for now. First le's get facts & numbers right. The green numbers will go away.
  • Bars to be added:
Al 6dx/y at ....
(117) 7dx/y at ....
  • Vertical axis text is (quantity and unit):
-DePiep (talk) 12:49, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for coming over again, man. Appreciate that.--R8R Gtrs (talk) 18:12, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
What more to change, what more to add? I cannot study the topic, a bit too much. -DePiep (talk) 07:34, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
Sure, it took me some time before I got into the basics. I still don't get everything... But think it's okay, given purposes. So, it would need:
  • d electron lines, of course
  • a very minor thing: the fractions will need to be written in subscript
  • don't forget to change those Al into At!
  • you said the numbers would go, just putting into the list
  • Pretty otherwise
Last one. Would it take much time to make me a horizontal-aligned copy? If yes, forget it. If no, then I'd love to have it even more than a vertical one (with a horizontal one, I won't need the vertical one, because then I can show it better (scale difference), but... If it's too tedious a task, I don't insist)--R8R Gtrs (talk) 13:13, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
So will have to expand to -2.0.
Horizontal would be a lot indeed, sort of redrawing.
Subscripts they will be, but that is a one-way finishing touch (so not in concept; Inkscape bug).
Sure the texts (axis, title) are OK? I took a thinking liberty. -DePiep (talk) 13:33, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Quick formatting comment based on various MOS guidelines and personal experience: the image would be more reusable if if the graph does not have a title. It represents more content that has to be translated in ordet to be fully usable in other languages (and doing so requires editing the image, which is often harder than editing normal WP content). And it also forces the reader to focus on certain relationships, which makes the image less useful to illustrate other ideas in other contexts. Descriptive text can easily be added in image-captions or other surrounding prose when the image is actually used. DMacks (talk) 14:12, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
While thinking about titles, it appears to be actually just elements At (I think it means) and 117, not group 13 at all (another remnant of the "Al" original?) and not the whole group 17. Might want to rename the file to be specific to that content in case someone wants to conjure up an image comparing other specific elements in these groups. It might be useful eventually to put together a graph of all elements in the group (helps illustrate various trends and patterns, rather than just one specific relationship among two)? DMacks (talk) 14:21, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
I took the file name from the figure title. Changing the filename is OK with me. No title in the graph: I see your arguments, but very often the necessary additions in the text are forgotten. The file doc page has not standard structure to write that there. Apart from that, to keep any sense into it the axes (dimensions) must be defined. Best would be an internationa notation, using SI and SI-drived terms (not descriptive wordings). But even this source has no unit along the vert axis. To be clear: in general the axis should mention: Quantity [Unit], optionally (Quality symbol). This would also keep the translation problem away. As for clarity: maybe we could reduce (squeeze) the vertical height. From a layman in this: some hinting or connecting (colored?) lines could be added, e.g. grouping & marking the s-p-d orbits. But sure the article can now be written alright. -DePiep (talk) 14:36, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The graphic part is well done. Exactly what I wanted to have. I tip my hat to you.
I, however, just realized that we have a wrong image title. "Valence nsnp atomic energy levels" is not fine. Not because you got it wrong. I didn't notice originally as well. Since the addition of the (n-1)d electrons, it is nsnp(n-1)d now, and this looks too nerdy to get it in. Valence is since then also doesn't do -- d electrons are not valence electrons for 117. I can't come up with a good idea to get in instead immediately, though. "Highest" maybe, but this can be understood in different ways. Also, I wouldn't point to this anywhere outside Wiki, but since it's Wiki, we should probably have Uus instead of 117 inserted (also a belated flash, didn't get that earlier). Will add it to the article as soon as this is fixed.--R8R Gtrs (talk) 19:19, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll remove the title and change "(117)" into "(Uub)". Your detailed physics (oops ;-) : that is, details into physical science) I cannot understand, but just tell me what to change and we both will be happy. -DePiep (talk) 22:14, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

New version (correcting eV, similar one for Tl and Uut)[edit]

Valence atomic energy levels for Tl and Uut.svg

See Tl and Uut file. Currently the image is under construction. When OK, I will splice them into the two files. When done, the future files (content) will be:

-File:Valence atomic energy levels for At and Uus.svg
-File:Valence atomic energy levels for Tl and Uut.svg

Changes:

  • eV correct numbers ("-1.0" now is "-27.211" eV).
  • Added Tl and Uut same way. -DePiep (talk) 12:15, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
Looks very good to me. Double sharp (talk) 13:46, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. I'll switch the sequence: it will be At Uus Tl Uut. But in two separate files (so effect will be: Tl Uut). Again: the complete list of four will not remain. -DePiep (talk) 21:11, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done. Uploaded two files, in intended form. -DePiep (talk) 13:05, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Face-smile.svg Thank you I've inserted the file into the element 113 article already. Double sharp (talk) 14:13, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

337Uus[edit]

It is said that 337Uus has a calculated half-life of 1016 years, although it is only an alpha decay half-life and :does not take into count other types of decay. I think that 337Uus is highly unstable to beta decay, so its actual half-life is only in the milliseconds or less instead. The most stable isotopes between alpha and beta decays would be in the region of 315Uus to 319Uus. I'll say that 319Uus is really the most stable isotope against both beta and alpha decays with a half-life of 3 years, based on the graph. Should we mention beta decay instability in the article? PlanetStar 21:25, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

No, there's a mistake in the caption (but labeled correctly on the pic), it's the total half-life graph. Please don't add anything about 319Uus. Also, there's just no info about beta alone. Even alpha (and SF, K-decay, etc.) data is unknown on its own. The article in fact doesn't go that deep ('cause it is technical and lacks data). So there's no reason for that.--R8R Gtrs (talk) 07:49, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Atoms containing too many neutrons relative to the number of protons undergo beta decay while too few neutrons relative to protons under alpha decay. Alpha decay half-lives does increase generally with neutron number, but beta decay half-lives generally decrease with increasing neutron number, which is the opposite of alpha decay. For example, ununseptium-294 has an alpha decay half-life of 78 milliseconds, but the beta decay half-life of this isotope can be at least a trillion times longer than the age of the universe. So there should be transition zone for isotopes between alpha and beta decays somewhere between 313Uus and 329Uus, which corresponds that the most stable isotopes are within this range. Consider that 337Uus has an alpha decay half-life of 10 quadrillion years, but the real half-life of this isotope should be lot shorter because it undergoes beta decay far before undergoing alpha decay. So do you think that heaviest Uus isotopes tend to undergo beta decay? The study of predicting half-lives only use alpha decay, cluster decay, and cold fission as partial half-lives. The total half-lives on the graph mean that they use only these three modes of decay and does not include beta decay. Hopefully future calculations should include beta decay and predict exactly which isotope is most stable and its half-life. PlanetStar 02:46, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Beta decay is probably somewhat inhibited for superheavy elements due to the Pauli exclusion principle: see Talk:Ununpentium#Stable E115. It is interesting to note that no isotope of any element beyond Db is known to undergo beta decay. Double sharp (talk) 05:45, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
That's interesting, but not really surprising, since all created isotopes for very high Z are neutron-deficient. And even an "inhibited" beta decay could easily have a half-life of less than billions of years...--Roentgenium111 (talk) 15:22, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm (ab)using the term "beta decay" to mean "β+, β, or ε". Double sharp (talk) 10:28, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Neutron-rich isotopes undergo beta decay, but for superheavy elements, neutron-rich isotopes are more stable because beta decay is somewhat more difficult since the electron cloud is denser closer to the nucleus, so it requires isotopes to be more neutron-rich in order to undergo beta decay. So I estimate the lightest Uus isotope to undergo beta decay is around 325–327Uus, so although 337Uus has an alpha decay half-life of around 10 quadrillion years, its half-life to beta decay would be lot shorter, perhaps from minutes to days. Look at isotopes of astatine in the alpha decay characteristics table and you'll see the differences between real half-lives and alpha decay half-lives. The most stable alpha decay isotope on that table is 221At, which is experimentally stable, but its actual half-life is only 2.3 minutes and undergoes beta minus decay. The most stable astatine isotope to all modes of decay is 210At, whose real half-life is 8.1 hours, but its alpha decay half-life is 193 days. It tells that this isotope almost alway undergo a different decay mode, which is beta plus decay. For superheavy elements, beta plus decay is virtually inhibited, and several of the eka-astatine isotopes may be more stable than astatine-210. The most stable ununseptium isotope to all modes of decay would have a half-life ranging from 1–300 years for 324–326Uus. PlanetStar 19:02, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Undoing for now. While everything you say may make sense, these are only your estimates and your changes thus seem to violate WP:V and WP:OR. I am thrilled by how such a heavy nuclide could be so stable, but this is the only paper that discusses such heavy isotopes of elements 105-130 (around so). The paper is googlable (look for the ref in the pic for the title). In the document, it is stated those are "total half-lives." I assume (I don't think there's anything else that can be assumed) it includes the beta decay. While we may doubt that data, those guys whose names are right under the title sure were suspicious as well. And they got published. We are even not saying they're the truth. What we're saying is, a team from a Brazilian university has made up some data, here's what they say (especially mentioning the source of data in the text, in popular science literature this is often done to show the hypothesis isn't yet considered the truth, but may turn out it to be it (not always it is used for that purpose, but very often)).--R8R Gtrs (talk) 21:08, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
It looks that 337Uus is too neutron-rich to have half-life this long. According to Brazilian source, they study isotopes only using alpha decay, cluster emission, and cold fission, but it doesn’t mention anything about beta decay even when talking about neutron-rich isotopes, see [10]. Future studies may constrain the half-lives of neutron-rich isotopes better because it'll eventually implement beta minus decay mode. So imagine if we study astatine using these decay modes, the Brazilian team would determine that 221At is the stable isotope without taking into account beta minus decay, which think that astatine should be as abundant on Earth as lead or uranium, but in reality astatine is the rarest element. Its actual half-life is 2.3 minutes when taking into account beta minus decay, same dispute would most inevitably occur for 337Uus. PlanetStar 23:34, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Heil to you, a cautious reader, I never noticed that "counts only for alpha, clusters, cold fission" disclaimer. I should be more cautious as well. I'm not sure to make a good wording right now (we should slightly push accent away from the report to be more rational, we should abandon the university's name, and about beta decay we should write something we could cite and not just state "may be stable, maybe not," it just never looks like good prose and this is an A-class page) Do you have any ideas how to make it?--R8R Gtrs (talk) 14:52, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I searched on Google about beta decay of ununseptium and I didn't find anything, so we have no idea how to accent it. The only time we'll know the idea is in the future when scientists develop a theory about beta decay for superheavy elements including ununseptium. PlanetStar 20:18, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
If there's nothing available on beta decay, we must simply state that the report's results exclude it. I'd agree to substantially reduce the accent on the report given its lesser relevance; I'll try to reword it. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 18:17, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Will read soon[edit]

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/238757997_Experimental_studies_of_the_249Bk__48Ca_reaction_including_decay_properties_and_excitation_function_for_isotopes_of_element_117_and_discovery_of_the_new_isotope_277Mt

is it the 2012 experiment we mention in the article?--R8R Gtrs (talk) 23:30, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

This could very well be it. Double sharp (talk) 06:41, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
Common sense was telling me the same (berkelium production is very difficult), just wanted to check the dates.
A very hardcore paper. Still, we may introduce it, I'll think about that in the evening.--R8R Gtrs (talk) 14:35, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
[1]

The 1981 data[edit]

We should add it.

This is an extrapolation thing (which we will point out), but what should we keep in infoboxes, what we have today or that extrapolation thing (tricky; I don't know)?--R8R Gtrs (talk) 21:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm clearly biased towards relativistic data, because, well, it's relativistic, and relativity alters properties significantly in this region of the table. In fact, Bonchev and Kamenska themselves state that they think some of the data should be altered to correct for relativity (not all, though)! I kept the extrapolation stuff where there was no other data. We can of course talk about it in the article (even if you don't have the article, you now have the data from the history!) Double sharp (talk) 02:14, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Cool pic[edit]

Here, though we probably don't really need it. Double sharp (talk) 07:01, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

  1. ^ Oganessian, Y. T.; Abdullin, F. S.; Alexander, C. et al. (2013). "Experimental studies of the 249Bk + 48Ca reaction including decay properties and excitation function for isotopes of element 117, and discovery of the new isotope 277Mt". Physical Review C 87 (5). Bibcode:2013PhRvC..87e4621O. doi:10.1103/PhysRevC.87.054621.  edit