Talk:Veneration of Mary in Roman Catholicism

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article title[edit]

Why is the "blessed" in the title? nothing indicates such a name more than synthesis of editors. and per WP:Honorific the article should be preceded with titles.(Lihaas (talk) 17:29, 12 December 2010 (UTC)).

I guess that is what Catholics call her, and a discussion per WP:Common could take place, but may not even be necessary, as be;low. I also saw that you added a pov tag. Are you saying the title is pov or the content, if so where in the content specifically. In either case, please clarify, thanks. But the title does need discussion anyway, else it will be discussed again in 6 months. There was a discussion above here, and on Talk:Mary_(mother_of_Jesus)#Requested_move_2010 there were search results for WP:Common were discussed. Above here, user:Xandar suggested a couple of titles and the one that I would support, would be a variation of his suggestion, namely: Virgin Mary in Roman Catholicism given that this article does not address issues for Eastern Catholic Churches. That would avoid the parentheses and the honorific, and also avoid future debates. But suggestions for alternative names will be appreciated. History2007 (talk) 18:04, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Given that no rationale for the NPOV tag is provided, I am removing it. Before adding a tag to the whole article, please discuss there. Discussion about the title is not handled by a NPOV tag. So please discuss first. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 08:43, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
I don't think that "Blessed" should be removed from the title, that is the Offical Title that Catholics give her. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 13:20, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
I agree, and think that discussion has for all practical purposes ended now. So let us leave it as is. History2007 (talk) 13:23, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Revisited[edit]

Since this article purports to be not just about Mary herself (whose biography is covered at Mary (mother of Jesus)), but about Roman Catholic veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary, shouldn't it be titled, well, Roman Catholic veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 08:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Disagree, the blessed part is the veneration, the article should remain as-is.Frmorrison (talk) 15:03, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Galatians 4:4 -- born of a virgin, or born of a woman?[edit]

Regarding the opening of the article:

Roman Catholic veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary is based on Holy Scripture: In the fullness of time, God sent his son, born of a virgin. (Reference: Gal. 4:4)

This is not what the verse says.

Galatians 4:4 reads in the TR, γενομενον εκ γυναικος, "born [lit. 'made', 'came into being'] of a woman," so too Jerome, "factum ex muliere." The Virgin birth is not found here, else we would read γενομενον εκ παρθένος. All versions that I have consuled, including the Rheims, have "woman," and not virgin. This is not a verse to cite in favor of the Virgin Birth. I do not deny the Virgin Birth (God forbid), but this is not an appropriate use of the verse. To reference Scripture on this point, why not use the salutation of the angel in Lk. 1:27f? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.20.38 (talk) 03:40, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Co-redemptrix[edit]

Since this is not Roman Catholic dogma, is it appropriate to list this as one of her titles? Aside from being highly questionable, the doctrine has been explicitly and consciously left out of all papal documents referring to the Virgin even by so devoted a follower of the Pietas Mariana as John Paul II. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.242.180.192 (talk) 23:23, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Are Biblical references really appropriate[edit]

for the statement Roman Catholic veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary (the mother of Jesus) is based on dogma as well as Scripture.?? I think we should have some secondary sources (preferably not written by Catholic clergy) that support the opening sentence of the article, rather than a string of three Bible quotes that could only support this statement in the eyes of devout Roman Catholics. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:57, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Also, Isaiah (the second one) is a mistranslation. I'm removing it. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:58, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
You wouldn't having any trouble finding them. What else is it based on? The interpretation may not be everyone's today, but was accepted by the universal church for centuries. Unless of course you're one of those who think it's all based on the worship of Isis. Johnbod (talk) 22:51, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Wow, nice personal attack. I'm one of those who actually studies history and wants the Wikipedia text to be based on scholarly consensus, not on one particular religion's theological viewpoint, and an interpretation of ancient mistranslation that almost all right-minded historians take as historically problematic. Hijiri 88 (やや) 23:50, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Also, every statement on Wikipedia that is likely to be challenged (and I'd be willing to bet a LOT of people would challenge that Roman Catholic veneration of Mary is based less on tradition than on the same scriptures that Protestants and Jews use) needs a good source, and primary sources that are interpreted by other religions in other ways are not good sources for this purpose. You can give the Bible quotation as well, but you also need a secondary or tertiary source, preferably not written by someone with an agenda, that links this with Roman Catholic veneration. I'm not saying there are none, I'm saying they need to be found and used to replace the inappropriate Bible citations. Hijiri 88 (やや) 23:56, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
I was going to wait about a week to see if anyone had a problem with me just deleting the refs and requesting secondary sources, but now I really want to take the knife to the Genesis reference straight away because, well, that passage doesn't mention Mary, or Jesus, or Catholic doctrine, or anything. It's just about snakes. Hijiri 88 (やや) 12:32, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: MOVED to Veneration of Mary in Roman Catholicism. The discussion was somewhat heated, but everyone seemed to agree that the scope of this article is specifically on the veneration of Mary by Roman Catholics, and I saw no other consensus. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 02:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)



Blessed Virgin Mary (Roman Catholic)Mary in Roman CatholicismVirgin Mary in Roman Catholicism – This page really needs a title change. Otherwise why not "Sri Krishna", "The Prophet Muhammad, Peace be Upon Him", "His Majesty the Shōwa Emperor" or, hey, even "Jesus Christ, Lord of Heaven and Earth?? Relisted.MikeLynch (talk) 04:31, 28 August 2013 (UTC) Hijiri 88 (やや) 08:57, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Oppose The current set of titles for articles about Mary were arrived at after a great deal of discussion (not in the archives for this page - it will be on one or more of the others) and work fine; I don't think anything is to be gained by reopening the issue. Johnbod (talk) 10:06, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Which other articles follow this convention? The main article's title is basically the polar opposite of this in its going out of its way to not be as encyclopedic and non-theological as possible, and I can't find any other articles in Category:Mary (mother of Jesus) that look like this except where "Our Lady of ..." is in the official name of a church, shrine, hospital or something. If broad consensus was established in favour of naming this article "Blessed Virgin Mary" on some other page, then which other page was it? Hijiri 88 (やや) 10:37, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
By the way, even if you don't like my proposed title, why does this article currently have the parenthesized disambiguator "Roman Catholic"? Is "Catholic" here an adjective or a noun? I don't know a whole lot of articles that have a parenthesized adjective in their titles, and if it's a noun, then is it meant to be implying that the Blessed Virgin Mary is a Roman Catholic? Hijiri 88 (やや) 10:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
It prevents giving the impression that this is the main biography. Mary, mother of Jesus is hardly a standard title either, but no one in the endless furious debates over Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) brought it up that I can recall. See the history and talk history at Blessed Virgin Mary (now a redirect) etc. Johnbod (talk) 11:05, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm not concerned about whether the title is "standard", since there are so few instances non-nobility/kings/emperors with no family names and who we can't just call "Saint [whatever]" that there's simply no need to create a standard (same as Sugawara no Takasue no musume). But "Blessed Virgin Mary" is somewhat POV/theological. What exactly is wrong with my proposed to title? Or, hey, Roman Catholic view of Mary? Hijiri 88 (やや) 12:28, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
It is far less likely as a search term than the current title, and fails WP:COMMONNAME. Johnbod (talk) 13:14, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
That's what redirects are for. Also, see the current ongoing discussion on the WT:TITLE: hardly anyone thinks COMMONNAME is the most important criterion. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:27, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
That is a gross distortion of that discussion, which is about what sort of usage COMMONNAME should be looking at. It remains the primary policy for article naming, as hundreds of discussions show. Johnbod (talk) 15:01, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
But you are saying "Blessed Virgin Mary" is more common than either "Mary" or "Virgin Mary". Hijiri 88 (やや) 15:28, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
No of course not. I'm saying they are more common than Roman Catholic view of Mary, and also that "Virgin Mary", with or without "Blessed" (which I'm not bothered about), is more common in Catholicism than "Mary". Johnbod (talk) 18:05, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support - the dab is cumbersome and, "Blessed" isn't needed at least, The Blackwell Companion to Catholicism has "Virgin Mary in Roman Catholicism" In ictu oculi (talk) 14:26, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
That would be preferable to anything so far. Johnbod (talk) 18:05, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose "Mary in Roman Catholicism" (not specific enough) but Support "Virgin Mary in Roman Catholicism". Including "Blessed" in the article title seems to go against the MOS. The fact that Mary is often called the BVM can be made clear in the article. Anglicanus (talk) 15:49, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment Okay, wow. There seems to have been some serious assumption of bad faith going on here, perhaps resulting from the unrelated thread I started immediately above this. I meant "Mary in Roman Catholicism" to be a placeholder title, which is why I said the current title needs to be changed but made no argument whatsoever in favour of my placeholder title. Honestly I can't think of any other Mary in Roman Catholicism who would have her own article, and "Virgin Mary" without "the" before it just sounds a little weird to me, as though "Virgin" is an adjective and it's like some nickname. But I have no problem with that title either. I also really wish Johnbod or someone else would have actually attempted to engage me on the issues and work this out before IIO was forced to come in on his white horse and single-handedly solve the problem. Notice how I expressed my concern that the current disambiguator could stand to be improved, and Johnbod completely ignored my argument to make an unrelated point about why we need a disambiguator at all? Anyway, let by-gones be by-gones as they say, and let's get on with this RM to Virgin Mary in Roman Catholicism. Hijiri 88 (やや) 14:25, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, calm down. It's not about you. You made a proposal, which people opposed. I'm still opposed to a change (except to drop "Blessed"), and note the fact that no one (including me) has bothered to dig up and link the very extensive previous discussions. I'm also concerned that none of the commenters so far are (forgive me if I'm wrong here) committed Catholics, and this viewpoint is missing in the discussion. Johnbod (talk) 15:00, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm an ex-Roman Catholic and spent 14 years in effective Catholic school, if that means anything. But why would that matter? Is "(Roman Catholic)" more agreeable to Catholics than "in Roman Catholicism"? I can't possibly imagine why. And you still haven't addressed why you think the disambiguator "Roman Catholic" isn't cumbersome, despite doubling down that you disagree on changing it. (Also, you said just above that "That would be preferable to anything so far" in response to IIO -- did you mean to say "except for the current title"?) Hijiri88 (やや) 15:13, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Do you have a problem with Virgin Mary (Roman Catholicism)? You do understand my problem with the current disambiguator, right? Hijiri 88 (やや) 15:16, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
To confirm my comments above, I would support Virgin Mary (Roman Catholicism). Johnbod (talk) 11:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. The current title is most awkward. Pity we can't make it something even simplier, like "Catholic views on Mary". Antonio Hazard (talk) 04:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC) BLOCKED

I'm not even sure why this article is needed in the first place since there is another substantial article covering essentially the same things at Roman Catholic Mariology which doesn't have an article name which might suggest that the BVM was a Roman Catholic . Anglicanus (talk) 13:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

That is much more theological, and already the result of a triple merge - see Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Roman_Catholic_Mariology. Johnbod (talk) 13:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Maybe so but that's not really the point. I still don't see any need for another article without any necessary difference. According to the MOS there ought to be only one article on any topic and "Virgin Mary in Roman Catholicism" and "Roman Catholic Mariology" are essentially the same thing. So I would suggest a quadruple merge. Anglicanus (talk) 14:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Anglicanus, the reason this page exists at all is that when it was AFDed it was not the right time. The perfectly valid content fork argument failed because at that time there was an ongoing content dispute. Hijiri 88 (やや) 14:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Are we getting anywhere with this discussion? It seem to me that there are some good MOS reasons to support the proposed article name change ~ and no good MOS reasons to oppose it ~ and that the consensus so far is in favour of changing it. Anglicanus (talk) 06:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The article is not about Mary herself. On that account, if for no other reason, "Blessed Virgin Mary (Roman Catholic)" is inappropriate. Even "Virgin Mary in Roman Catholicism" may not be quite appropriate. What the article is about (as the opening hatnote says) is "Veneration of Mary in Roman Catholicism" or "Veneration of Mary (Catholic Church)".
(Add "the Virgin", if you insist; but I don't think it is needed after "Veneration". If I may be permitted a light remark rather than a serious argument, we speak of "Mariology" not of "Parthenomariology".) Esoglou (talk) 10:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support move to Virgin Mary in Catholicism or the like (no need for "Roman"). The current title is unacceptable since the base title Blessed Virgin Mary already links here; the parentheses aren't necessary. The article also deals with more than just the title, so there's not a pressing need to keep that particular form in the title.--Cúchullain t/c 21:09, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
FYI: The definition of "Catholicism" is, correctly, not restricted to the Roman Catholic Church on Wikipedia. Therefore the article's title should be something like "Veneration of Mary in Roman Catholicism" or "Veneration of Mary in the Catholic Church" (or "Roman Catholic Church"). Anglicanus (talk) 05:50, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm well aware of what the word "Catholic" means in different contexts, thank you. In this one, there's no way the word would be mistaken for meaning anything other than the Catholic Church.--Cúchullain t/c 13:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
It seems, in fact, that you are not well aware of what "Catholic" and "Catholicism" mean in different contexts. Anglicanus (talk) 16:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Nonsense, and you can stop bludgeoning the discussion any time now.--Cúchullain t/c 17:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
I would appreciate it if you would stop making such patronising and sarcastic comments. As an administrator you should know better than to act in this kind of abusive manner. Thank you. Anglicanus (talk) 12:35, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry if you're offended, but if you're concerned about a "patronizing" tone you should check your own comments. And you do not need to respond to every post that disagrees with you.--Cúchullain t/c 15:33, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
I also note that Blessed Virgin Mary already redirects here, so (Roman Catholic) is unnecessary disambiguation. It could fairly be moved there if this RM doesn't decide on a new name. I wonder how many editors would like that. --BDD (talk) 22:45, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.