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- 1 Slavic mythology ?
- 2 Morwen's time machine
- 3 Time for a fresh look
- 4 Rubbish!
- 5 Radivoje's claims
- 6 Marija Gimbutas
- 7 Notability of Pešić's theory
- 8 move
- 9 What the heck does "matristic" mean?
- 10 "it is not known whether they represent an alphabet, syllabary, ideograms"
- 11 "this belongs to X"
- 12 Griffen / Fringe literature
- 13 Tartaria Tablets age
- 14 Pdf - Dunabe script
- 15 title
- 16 Merge with Symbols and proto-writing of the Cucuteni–Trypillian culture
- 17 The language was Indo European (My reading of the "Vinca vessel" inscription)
- 18 Faulty image
Slavic mythology ?
- The inscription could be read as STRRBOG (LTR), which sounds similar to Stribog, Slavic god of wind. The letter B is topped with an arrow and in the bottom left corner there is image of, possibly, bow and arrow; in Slavic mythology, Stribog's winds are helping the arrows to fly. It could be concluded that this is an amulet of precision.
"Slavic mythology" I guess that means that the Chinese "Oracle Bones" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_bone are "Chinese mythology" or maybe those scratches on turtle shells also found there? It's funny that in the west unscientific hyperbole is ridiculed whereas in China it's celebrated! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 01:36, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
LOL! I think it's obvious that the Slavs didn't lived in that region 3000 BC. Interestingly enough, the some Hungarians also claimed that the same clay tablet is "Hungarian" script. :) .
- I wrote: could be read. Of course, other readings are possible. It is mathematically proven that deciphering a short text is impossible - you will end with several versions of the text that make sense. Unless much more material is found, the reading of the tablets will remain forever disputed. As for Slavs, it is not impossible that Slavs adopted a god from an older culture. Nikola
Both these theories are complete non-sense. Both the Slavs and the Hungarians were not living in this region at that time. Bogdan 19:40, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think this whole article is nonsense - 'Vinca alphabet' gets one hit on google, and the claims of 6th millennium B.C. is just frankly absurd.
- The dates are found out by radiocarbon dating, now it could be wrong for even a millenium according to some... Nikola
- In Romania there is not such a village named Tordos.The neolithic round tablet in discussion is from the neolithic site of Tartaria,Alba County Romania.
- Most of Vinca writings are precursor of writing.They are related to economic (marking) and to religion.Most of them are on pottery.But some of the tablets seem to have real writing on it.Most of the signs are found in pre-cuneiform Mesopotamian writing,and all of them are found in Azilian-Glozel writing (also undeciphered).The most plausible hypothesis is that Danubian neolithic was conected with either Old-Iberian civilisation (wich in turn has conected vith Saharan civilisation) and with Near-East.My opinion is that Danubian civilisation (more precise Vinca civilisation) produced one early realwriting system.The problem is the reduced number of tablets with this writing.In this case,till no more tablets will be found,the trend is that those tablets have an Near-Eastern origin.The new NTC (Neolithic continuity theory)theory of Mario Alinei is for a more older origin of languages in Europe.Also it is for a autochronuos origin of Celts (Old South-Iberians) and Slavs.So the writers could be also slavs.The Danubian civilisation and especially Vinca has the suficient signs data-base for many alphabets.Also is an known fact that this civilisation expanded in Europe in all directions.As somebody observed above,scientist are for a similarity of Vinca writing with linear A,linear B and Ethruscan writing,considering the former as progenitor of latters.If one combine the early emergence of Indo-European branches with the area of this emergence precisely in Danubian area,the result is a possible writing in ancient variants of the folowing languages in decreasing probability order:euskara/old-iberian,albanian-illyrian,greek,serbo-croat.If "imported",the languages could be mainly:sanscrit,sumerian.I studied for some months this writing and I checked those languages could be.Beside a "Danubian origin" the second probable origin is the ancient Phoenicia/Palestinian territories.Because some 2 signs (2 out of 15)are pointing to Egypt and South-Arabia.But a more real and plausible originof the signs is from old Saharan civilisation wich has the newer and remnant alphabets from older times,the Ethiopic and Numidian alphabets.Especialing the Numidian is very easy to use and have very simple geometric elements as "basic bricks" for letters.I advanced my deciphering variants in order to be validate (one of them) by scientists.One of my variants wich is related to Turanians is allready validated by the Turkey scientist Polat Kaya.But personally I am not yet convinced that is the real,right,ultimate variant/reading. I am Eugen Rau,from Timisoara Romania.
It sounds like a national myth
- Funny :) Of which nation? Vincan? :))) Nikola
and this article certainly wants NPOVing if not outright deleting. Morwen 19:45, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- Try searching for "Vinca script". Nikola
- I did - that gets me NINE hits, oh joy. This article is just a pile of lies. Morwen 22:36, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- "vincha script" OR "vinca script" OR "vinca alphabet" OR "vincha alphabet" gives 24. What is the basis for your conclusion that this article is "a pile of lies"? Nikola 22:44, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- It should be moved to Vinca culture since we don't know whether it's really an alphabet. Bogdan 19:50, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- Also, the chronology is all wrong. The symbols shown are pretty much identical to Etruscan. If Phoenician was derived from this, then they must have changed and then changed back again to exactly the same form, or remained mysteriously identical for a few thousand years...
- Yeah, your right. Unless the Thracians (or whoever made these) invented the time machine.
- I don't see why. The oldest symbols are from 6th millenium BC, and the newest from 3nd millenium BC. I don't see why the symbols couldn't have lived a thousand years more and be adopted by Etruscans (or perhaps Etruscans are descendants of Vincans), without any Phoenician influence. Nikola
- The problem is, we know the Etruscan came from the West Greek, and we know the Greek came from the Levant (probably Phonecian), etc. all the way back to the Sumerian invention. — B.Bryant 09:34, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Nikola, that's a pretty probable idea. From what I read, the script was written before the indo-europeans settle in Europe, and the only non-indo-europeans in Europe in antiquity were the Etruscs and the Basques, so it will not be impossible that the Vincans migrated toward Etruria. Bogdan 08:47, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- No, you should say that Etruscan and Basque are the only remnants of pre-IE European culture that you know of. Moreover, it doesn't matter where the Etruscans came from, because we already know where their alphabet came from. — B.Bryant 09:34, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- from the article: "But comparison with other scripts revealed that all marks of Vincan script exist in Etruscan alphabet"
- But these symbols are found on the tablets only. This symbols are found repeatedly on various artifacts - as I said, more then 1000 of them. There are more symbols that are not in the alphabet (see Omniglot page) but they are also not used consistently. Perhaps I should have made it clearer. Nikola 22:31, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Morwen's time machine
Now I conclude that User:Morwen has a time machine because he conducted an opinion poll among scholars, and found that this is not accepted by the majority of them, in five minutes. :)))))) Nikola 22:52, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- No, I know this because it is not accepted in any of the books I've read about writing systems, and it would certainly be mentioned, if it wasn't a fringe theory. Morwen 22:55, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- I'd be quite interested to see photos of these inscriptions. Would that be possible? Morwen 22:57, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- There's an unsorted pile of individual symbols at Omniglot, and there's the book, if you can find it (it has no photos, only drawings).
- I could photocopy the inscriptions and mail them to you or only describe them if you think that would be accurate enough if you apologise for calling me a liar and promise to work on the article constructively. Nikola 09:37, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- No, I called the article a pile of lies, not you a liar. I am willing to believe you are parrotting other people's lies and believe them. ;) Morwen 10:33, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- On second thoughts, I withdraw that. It was instead a pile of dubious conjecture presented as fact. Morwen 11:55, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- Well, my limit is reached. You'we shown yourself incapable for anything but insults. I no longer recognize any of your edits. Nikola 05:25, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Time for a fresh look
I don't know whether Nikola is aware of it, but the article is actually somewhat misnamed; the more common names are "Vinca-Tordos script" or "Old European Script". Google on those terms and you'll find a lot more information about it. It definitely isn't a national myth, but the theory that the scipt is a precursor of Etruscan seems to be something of a fringe view. I think the article does need to be modified to reflect the range of opinions rather than presenting the fringe explanation as the definitive version. There are also some serious factual inaccuracies (for instance, the article refers to the 6th millennium BC, but this is clearly a mistaken reference to the artifacts being dated as 6000 years old).
I'm reworking the article to fix these problems. Hopefully this will settle some of the controversy that it seems to have provoked. :-) -- ChrisO 14:56, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- Okay, rewrite done. My observations:
- Radivoje Pesic's theories on the Vinca script are kooky, or at least on the far fringes of opinion. I haven't found a single source to support them, and Etruscan's origins in early Greek seem to be pretty much unassailable. As the saying goes, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and Pesic simply doesn't seem to have it. On the other hand, I've found quite a few sources suggesting that Pesic is some kind of Serbian ultranationalist with an agenda to "prove" that there was a Slavic presence in the Balkans in prehistoric time, which is similarly a very fringe view.
- For that reason, although Nikola has done a nice job of providing a (presumably Pesic-inspired) table comparing Etruscan letters to Vinca symbols, I don't think it's appropriate to retain it. It would be a bit like illustrating an article about the building of the Pyramids with a picture showing flying saucers lifting the blocks into place - an interesting theory but too far out to have that kind of coverage n a "mainstream" article. One possibility might be to move the table to an article about Pesic with a fuller explanation of his theory on the Vinca script.
- We need to rename this article. It's far from clear what kind of writing system the Vinca script represents - whether it's an alphabet or something else - and the present title represents a very disputed viewpoint. I'd suggest moving the text to a new article called "Old European Script" (the most widely accepted name) with redirects from "Vinca Alphabet" and "Vinca Culture".
- Comments welcome... (ducks) -- ChrisO 01:26, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This is a very good rewrite. Secretlondon 13:39, Dec 14, 2003 (UTC)
- Nobody's objected to the changes I made a month ago, so I've now removed the neutrality sign and renamed the page as proposed earlier. -- ChrisO 20:04, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
This is a load of rubbish, and blatant Serbian Nationalism. But does deletion help? Yak 19:05, Feb 10, 2004 (UTC)
- It's unproven, yeah, but its not just some Serbian nationalist fairy tale. Many anthropologists and linguists who are not Serbs seem to accept that it COULD be a sort of proto-writing, and many others do not. I've seen an interesting (and fairly long (full book page) graph showing marks found in Vinca "writing" compared to Linear A sighns and there are many similar looking signs. That may be coincidence, and this may be a red herring. However, I think its unwise to just dismiss it out of hand as a product os Serbian (or any other) nationalism. None of us were there, none of us know if these were just decorative scratchings, a primitive iconographic writing, or whatnot. I'd say that dismissing those ideas with no evidence is as unscientific as making unfounded claims that its a primitive writing system. 22.214.171.124 09:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
- I thought Gimbutas was from the Baltic states - Lithuania, wasn't it? I agree that the suggestion that the O.E.S. is some sort of proto-Slavic script is absurd, but the nature and meaning of the symbols is nonetheless an interesting if somewhat peripheral issue. -- ChrisO 19:55, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- The page history and the discussions above suggest that deletion won't help unless/until a certain True Believer loses interest. But we can at least keep qualifiers on the claims until we can get away with a delete or a total re-write. I shudder to think what other linguistic claims may be lurking undetectced in Wikipedia. — B.Bryant 07:50, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- You should have seen the article before I rewrote it. :-) -- ChrisO 08:31, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It's reassuring to see some wholesome humor and skepticism about the "Ole European Script." So many drawings, so few photos. So many single symbols, so few sentences. So many "chance" discoveries, so few datable "in situ" contexts. So many "connoisseur"'s private collections, so few large archaeological museums.... The constant subtext: "Writing and the alphabet were invented in Slavic areas of Europe." Wetman 08:01, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Bah, everything is true in someone's imagination. — B.Bryant 08:19, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I think that we should remove any trace of nationalism (i.e. Slavic Nationalism) from this article. It's a fact that at that time there were no Slavs, no Germans, no Latins, etc. There were only Indo-Europeans. And they weren't yet in Europe, either.
- What Radivoje claims is absurd, these are only his claims, not sustained by any proofs, nor by any real historian. I think they don't belong in an encyclopedia. Bogdan | Talk 14:28, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Radivoje's claims are certainly pretty far out and I agree with your assessment of them, but I don't think this by itself should justify removing any mention of them. Wikipedia already includes articles on pseudoarchaeology which cover even more extreme claims - take a look at Ancient astronaut theory, for instance. An encyclopedia should be encyclopedic, after all. -- ChrisO 16:16, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- You can't have it both ways. :-) If his claims are too wacky to merit being included in an encyclopedia, they certainly don't merit their own article! -- ChrisO 08:48, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I agree with Bogdan. People are going to hear about it elsewhere, so we might as will provide a (hopefully) sane presentation of what is going on. — B.Bryant 11:17, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- To be honest, I'm not too bothered about what is done with Radivoje. Just be aware that if you delete the paragraph about his claims and the aforesaid True Believer reverts it, you will need to have some good arguments to back you up. I wouldn't want to see this article subjected to an edit war. -- ChrisO 11:49, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I tried to improve the section on Marija's theory, which was not very accurate. I was her research assistant for two years at UCLA. She was a better scholar than some of her groupies are. Evertype 21:44, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)
- I must attract your attention to the folowing facts: Europe was populated from Aurignacian (40.000BC) from above Black-Sea route leaving the Proto-Iberians and Ucrainian spots.The origin area was somewhere north of Lake Baikal.The genetic material and probably language was Central-Asian/Turanian type.From Grawettian (20.000BC)we have the Balkan spot.Was originated in Near-East fertile crescent.The route was south of Black Sea.The language and people unknown,but my opinion is that had some of Indic component.Those migrations were responsible for 80% of genetic material of actual Europeans.Those populations gave the basic language of Europe,wich was not IE.The only relic and remnant of those language,to have an immage is euskara.The other 20 % is from the neolithic period (10.000-5.000 BC)Has an Central-Asiatic-Caucasian base,but much more in contact and influence with India and Australic-Asian areas.One observe and realise that neolithic is toward 10.000BC in Near-East, late in Balkan area,and much late in Europe.In Europe,before and into paleolithic most of Europe was of Proto-Iberians,the hunter-gatheres of paleolithic.The language non-IE,Turanian type.Later,in neolithic the Danubian population expanded in all directions and "pushed" the old-Iberians to Western-Europe. The neolithic langage of Danubians from a point was IE (either if autochronuos or not).In neolithic in Europe there emerged the main IE brunches.Out of this this IE theory is mainly an didactic-one.The situation is more complex:why not a "bifocal" PIE !?? If agriculturalist or Danubians or "Kurgans" are responsible for IE languages,"imported" or autochronuos at a point it is not so important.Maybe long time the scientists will be same divergent,and as a herd will follow the most autoritative scientists at different times.As in fashion could be seen.As one said: As weird could be ,the Kurgan hordes seemed to bring IE in Europe (my coment:of Turanian stock,but carriers of IE).See also: http://groups.msn.com/1-stWorldVincadecyphered Eugen Rau I am asking myself and I invite you to give at least a guess of the language,or at least of the type of language used by the Vinca culture people by 5.000-4.500BC.
- Sign your post or I will not bother with this. Evertype 14:37, 2005 Apr 7
(UTC)Eugenrau: I was strucked how many signs of Tartaria round tablet(TRT)are in other ancient scripts.I made a comparison work,resulting "An partial,experimental Alphabet"(in fact is a silabary,but for work reasons I not defined the secon letter/wowel from the begining).Like S is in fact Sa,se,etc. but don't matter at the begining to precise if really it is a,or e,or u etc.I "produced" many texts from sumerian...up to albanian.You may see those texts as in modern days the designers are putting their products "to work" in computers so-named "simulation".Till one day.You know that there is in the method of decipherment something wich is telling:if one is expecting to appere some "markers" as river names,known kings,countries,mountains wich have a "constancy" some hundred yars or more up to 1K and this is happening,then so thats'it!.Such a moment had come:only in one quadrant,No.2 situated right/up fom the letters S un under it the letters R,B,O,L where S is binded with B w can have,in sumerian :SUB=prey;SIB=exorcism/shepperd;SUBA=priest;ARB-EL=The 4 Gods;BAR=soul,to shine;ARAL=the netherworld;SU-BAR=who are from high peaks,northeners;BARA:king,pass-over;BAU=primeval animistic deity of "deepwaters";;euRi=Lord;Elod/up,high ;Baal=Lord;eS=ltar SuR,aSuR=Sun-God;ShuBuRe=big Goddess of fertility;iRa=Nergal;Ba=omen Suari=Subari(we have allready);eReS=the name of Ereschigal Ra(hurr)=to give;...one must think of so many words and so much ideatic charge in a text of..only 5 letters.So was Iwas to the point to became convinced that I am on the right track.In fact I deeply realised that first I put in my computer search-engine those letters S(or Csi or XI in other writings) with RBO under it,and I obtainet:RBO ,reading from right to left:EBER,EBRI,EVRI,and vith XI at the end:Evree-it,the early linguistic root for hebrew people.The o is in fact"aleph" wich can be used for any wowel.But I have a question for you all here:if to see far in future one need imgination how about seeing in "past" ?? So what about ARBOL or Su ARBOL? (Proto-iberian arbol=tree su=under;tree cult?, etc.)what about Arbeli,the plural for Ar-ab (ab,beli the denomination of paternity in old hbrew/arabian for singular respectively plural).Arbeli/Arberi?? Surbo/srbi/(rbija:the old pro-root for serbian people )Sorbians,those slavic people in past times in the western-Europe?.I took those letters and words from my imagination? What about the idea to make a brain-surgery to those with above-medium imagination level,in order to reduce it? O.K. This tanlet has the disc-shape;it is a sun-disc,with the equal-arms cross.Those symbols,togheter with the square&cross,(generally every kind of crosses ) togheter with other images and simbols as the bull,lion,some birds,stick/erected things and even phaluses, were ancient symbols for;the movement and cycles of the sun and moon and human and nature fertility/sexuality. From the most ancient times,people were not indifferent to the death issue.They first sought to the death was as "another kind of life","another some-how attenuated life" or "kind of sleep".They were not sure if the soul (to read:spirit) of the dead are between them in day-time or in the night was roaming,others as pelasgians thought that their dead relatives are part of family ,they put dishes for them and in harder times asked for advice or help,the so named "heros" and "her" culture from Sumer to Greece .The thought for the death was as they were gone to "netherworld" or "underworld'.Sumerian underworld was named ARALE,and as in their life there were also in the "underworld" 2 rivers,where one have to be carried with a boat..(the future Styx?).Th "netherwold" was named also A-Ha and Ari.Somwhere at their confluence was Edin,the future Eden ,the future heaven.They had not a definite idea of what will happen to them exactly or the time of their staying.As the Sun everiday was going under the Earth and the Oceans,dying and with their hard pray and with the help of the gods "was ressurecting" to a new life,so they waited and asked,praised for the ressurection of their soul.So it is the story of our tablet ;it is a little "prayer-book" of our ancestors.Maybe the entire ritual associated with ,lasted some time,maybe hours,and they surely were chanting and dancing (see future hora,at the initial phase an ritualic dance,later only an joy-dance,at hebrews and thracians/romanians).These kind of written "prayers",more exactly spells,once reinforced with the power of the gods were not more,nevermore important.But they have to be kept all the time before out of the sight of others,better in dark places,in order not to be exposed to the adverse forces,of the evill/evil-eye.By short out of malfic forces action.Even when they wrote such spells,they were thinking about it,so we have the text in quadrant 2 divided by the line of B(a.. wich is common with one of the tooth of the comb-like S(e,i..u).Iffor the rest of the tablet we can talk of "reading" for the No2 quadrant,the more propiate term i "reading+decipherment".This no2 is the equivalent of the active substance in our modern drugs.This tablet was an amulet carring an spell/charm wich have the purpose of assuring to semebody (a dead person ) ressurection in & from the afterlife. Eugenrau I don't know in wich fase was the people religion exactly between a pure animistic one and the begining of apperance of antropomorphic deityies. Regarding the language/languages.Neolithic language was not too much different from the paleolithic language.Was the primary language of the hunter-gatherer people. I am not engaging myself in "who was the first" issues.Not regarding the people,nor regarding the time and place of appearance of the 1-st World writing.It seems that was an ancient "Lingua Franca" as akkadian was in his time in an definite area.This language ,as one can see the papers related to the subject a kind of primitive,aglutinative language akin to mande,euskara,sumerian.They had no time to "flex" too much the language.For the place of origin....don't know.Could be Older Armenia-Canaan,more precise Armenia-Ararat(Nemrut-Dag)this is my 1-st choice...Or around Black-Sea/Lake so why not 1k kms around the shores(so could enter in equation the Danube area or Ukraine).Dnieper-Donets is a little far from the above-designed area.My opinion is that between 5.000 and 4.000 BC the language was between the phase of respectively pre-proto-IE and proto-IE.The sumerian language is not a IE language,but have something of it in it.This language was the layer "under" many of later languages (so named substrate).I detected some of IE lnguages in my searchings related to this tablet.So as it happened in reality as some schollars hypotethied that Pre-Proto-IE mooved across Romania and Macedonia from eastern-Turkey to the steppes..to the place to become roto-IE.And/or the Dniepper/Donets people and language,as Proto-IE mooved some yers earlier than sought from the steppes to Boian (Romania) region and possible Vinca area.Or better both movements,maybe not exactly at the same time.The D/D people was known as "Guda" people as I have in my text (at me Guda=priest,as in lithuanian).Guda=kuti=guti=getae=gots=future kurds.The old people of King and God Zagg=Za-Ga-Ga wich came from Zagros mountains. Zaga>Dzaga>Daga-people (Dag=mountain in turkic),maybe Dagi/Daki,Daci. There are strong evidences for the fact that many main consonant roots were "transported" in time and space by migrating people from a region to another.I will tell you about ARB:"the Proto-nostratic root and denomination for all is pertaining to spelling,magic,scorcering,etc",so why not all those primitive animistic people not called thmselvs with different names after their departuring areas:e-beri,i-beri,su-bari/sorbi/srbo,and ar-beri.regarding the people.Many of my preliminary and pure pesonal conclusions are matching with the opinions and searchings of Mr:L.Luca,Cvali Sforza and Mario Aliney for an much older point for begining of the IE-isation processus.Throw on me with rocks,but..I am to the point to bet for a (Pre)-Balto-Slavic people for the Vinca people.Note in the presen-day ucrainian and slovenian languages those Su,Ga,Za and so on words,as in sumerian language.I wonder if kaza-Ga are not the kaza=goat (latvian/lithuanian)people ,future Kazachas.In fact Kazag/Kazakh/Casca/Caucas-ga/ka people.The branch wich was gone to the North-East."Note": "ga" :very much used ending-particle (and) for nominativ,in sumerian language. One must note also that if the genetics had showed evidences of some 3 main migration wawes in neolithic to Europe,in reality there were much many of them,in different times with different places of origin.The Starcevo and Vinca cultures people were expanding to all directions to Europe (and farther?)For the moment I will stop here.I am veryinterested what your opinions are,my friends. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1sum.jpg up to ...4.jpg Thankyou verymuch for giving your time for my text. Eugenrau
Notability of Pešić's theory
I'd never heard of Pešić or his theory before reading this article. Does he have any supporters or much of a profile in Serbia? I'm concerned that we seem to be giving undue weight to a fringe viewpoint here. We don't cite Erich von Daniken's claims in the Egyptian pyramids article, for instance. -- ChrisO 20:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- Like any undeciphered script, the Vinca symbols attract crackpots in swarms. Unless we can show Pesic was received in any way at all off Serbian nationalist internet fora, I don't think we should mention him, per WP:UNDUE. dab (𒁳) 22:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- I've never seen any references to Pešić in the English-language literature on this topic, so I'd guess that his views aren't taken seriously by mainstream archaeology. One would have thought that he would at least have been mentioned otherwise. -- ChrisO 22:19, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
we can entertain a fringe/pseudoscience section (compare Indus script). Pesic can languish there, but I will insist on keeping him there unless and until a scholarly review of his book is presented (that is, one that does not come to the conclusion that the book is trash). No peer review, no screen time on Wikipedia. dab (𒁳) 16:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
googling around, I find that sr:Radivoje Pešić has some notability, or should I say notoriety. He is an archaeologist, but it seems he is more noted as an all-out nationalist extremist . Serbian nationalism is, of course, not an academic subject but led to real bloodshed little more than 10 years ago, and is still holding the region captive. This article is on the Neolithic, and we have to keep it from becoming a battlefield of current day nationalist disputes in the Balkans. dab (𒁳) 16:37, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- He strikes me as being rather like the German archaeologists in the 1930s and early 1940s who sought to "prove" the Aryan ancestry of the Germans - pseudoarchaeology in the service of ethnic nationalism. At any rate, professional qualifications notwithstanding, he's plainly not a mainstream source and I agree that we shouldn't give him much more than a mention given his lack of prominence. -- ChrisO 19:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I moved the page to "Vinča signs". The old title, "Old European script", was POV: there is no evidence that the the symbols encoded language, nor that they were part of a "European" culture, so both 'European' and 'script' are inappropriate. 'Vinča signs' is the terminology used in Daniels and Bright, and is fairly neutral; 'Vinča symbols' would also be good. kwami 12:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
What the heck does "matristic" mean?
- It's not even in the OED, so I removed all three instances of it from Wikipedia. It means woman-centered. — kwami (talk) 08:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
- it's Marija Gimbutas' term and as such relevant to the topic, but it needs to be introduced of course. It means something like "somewhere between matriarchal and matrilineal; we're being second-wave feministic btw." dab (𒁳) 08:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
"it is not known whether they represent an alphabet, syllabary, ideograms"
I don't really understand why a serious scholar would even entertain the possibility that the symbols could be an alphabet, since it's clear from history that inventing an alphabet if you've never heard of the idea before is extremely difficult. All the alphabets in the world which are currently in use or clearly deciphered descend (either directly or by "stimulus diffusion") from the original alphabet which was created by Semitic-speaking peoples in contact with Egypt sometime before 1500 B.C. To anyone truly knowedgeable about the overall history of writing systems, to suppose that an alphabet was created from scratch on a second occasion ex nihilo (without even a previously-existing writing system as precedent) would seem to border on the preposterous... AnonMoos (talk) 02:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Suppose that, if this was an alphabet, it gave the Greeks an idea to make an alphabet from another system. Also, the script could be a fusion of two or three of the three writing systems used for different purposes, using an alphabetic script for names and a pictographic/ ideographic for other purposes. The Camunic language's alphabet shares many character with the Vinca symbols (although apparently it descended from greek ), and I doubt the Camunni influenced a script thousands of years back. I am not opposing your idea, indeed, I support it, just pointing out the alternative POV. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 10:15, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
"this belongs to X"
"At first it was thought that the symbols were simply used as property marks, with no more meaning than "this belongs to X"; a prominent holder of this view is archaeologist Peter Biehl. This theory is now mostly abandoned, as same symbols have been repeatedly found on the whole territory of Vinča culture, on locations hundreds of kilometers and years away from each other."
- Is this the extent of the rationale used to disprove this theory? How could commonality and frequency of symbols be used to disprove this theory when even in the US (a society with a huge number of first names and last names), names such as "John" and "Robert" are ubiquitous? (see: )
- Given the relative non-mobility of the majority of people and items, there'd be little chance for confusion for a few hundred people named "V" to identify their property using the same mark or marks. --Formerly the IP-Address 188.8.131.52 (talk) 16:11, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
Griffen / Fringe literature
Doesn’t Toby Griffen’s theory rather belong under ”Fringe literature”? In my view, even if this were a script it would be obviously theoretically indecipherable (no data), and so anyone who claimes to ”decipher” it is a fringe figure indeed. Bossk-Office (talk) 01:55, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, he's a nut case. I'd already moved it when I say your note. Basically, "III" can be any of his signs, 'bear', 'bird', or 'goddess', depending on what what works for him, so "IIIIIIIIIIII" could mean almost anything. (It helps, though, to have a couple contradictory fringe ideas, so that no one of them is taken seriously.) Winn doesn't see these spindles as even having specific signs, and Foster (1984) claims that Griffen's "vulva" (goddess) is a paleolithic symbol for "male". (Griffen's 'bird', at least on one of the two spindles, is closer to Foster's vulva/female.) kwami (talk) 15:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Tartaria Tablets age
5370-5140BC Tartaria tablets were discovered in a tomb, and recent carbon dating of the female bones show that period. So, please make this correction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigshotnews (talk • contribs) 00:47, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Pdf - Dunabe script
- http://www.prehistory.it/ftp/tartaria_tablets/tartaria_tablets_14.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 04:09, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Apparently this article was moved based on considerations of "npov". However, npov in article means following WP:NAME: use the most common name as used in relevant English language literature. For this purpose, "Vinca symbols" is the worst possible choice. On google books, I get 7 (seven) hits for "Vinca symbols", 73 hits for "Vinca signs", 98 hits for "Vinca script" and 313 hits for "Old European script". So it turns out that the old title was preferable over the current one by a factor of roughly 50. Moving back to the original title for this reason, if a more suitable title can be found, we can still move it again. --dab (𒁳) 10:18, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
My proposal would be "Vinča sign system": it has comparatively few hits, but only high quality references, and it is also the term used in the monographic source we cite atm. If nobody objects, I would move the article to that title. --dab (𒁳) 10:29, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- That would be fine by me. There's a lot of pseudoscholarship out there claiming that Europeans invented writing, and I'd rather WP didn't play along even in the title. — kwami (talk) 17:41, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- I would definitely vote against calling these symbols found throughout SE Europe by just one placename. There already are Serbian nationalists who use the Vinča symbols as "proof" that their nation was where writing was invented - why unnecessarily add fuel to a nationalistic (and non-NPOV) fire? The problem is that there is no accepted name for these symbols that is inclusive of the entire region where they have been found - even Marco Merlini and the The Institute of Archaeomythology's use of the term "Danube Script" leaves out the Ukraine, Moldova and the Balkans, where some of these proto-writing symbols have also been discovered - giving the impression that they were only found near the Danube River. There NEEDS to be an inclusive term for these - but one that is not associated with Gimbutas (her term "Old Europe" was inclusive to a degree, but it's been tainted by her critics). That's where the problem stands right now - we Facebook editors cannot in good conscience give a title to an article about these symbols that carries any weight with the academic community AND retains a NPOV in regards to avoiding nationalistic claims.... So - what to do? --Saukkomies talk 03:04, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
- We should, of course, follow the relevant guidlines and find the most commonly used name. If that happens to be a placename then I think we should still have to use it, as per WP:NAME the "common usage" guideline overrides NPOV. Furthermore, I think doing anything else, even using a genericised name for reasons of NPOV, will insert ourselves into the nationalistic debate. In my experience the thing that gets the irrational nationalists out in full force is 'politically correct' attempts to find compromise terms. It's vital that we can say "this article is titled according to common English usage" to stop any future nationalistic edit wars before they start (though if that happens to be an NPOV term, all the better).
- That said, I strongly feel that google hits are not an appropriate measure in this circumstance. The sad fact is 'fringe' literature that falls way short of WP:RS vastly outnumbers reputable academic sources on this topic. I hope you don't take this the wrong way dab, but I think the current name "Old European script" is the worst possible name for this article. It combines two major POV issues: (a) using Gimbutas' highly suspect "Old Europe" label and (b) accepting that the markings are a script or form of writing.
- I apologise for adding more problems and not solutions. None of the books I have to hand are much help. The vague impression I get is that the discovery of symbols/proto-writing outside the Vinca culture is relatively recent, and that an inclusive term has not gained acceptance in mainstream academia yet. Gimbutas' camp, and to some extent the popular press, used "Old European script" from the outset. So my tentative vote would be to retain Vinca symbols/script/sign system (I don't know which), but to note in the lead that they have now been found in other cultures. —Joseph RoeTk•Cb, 08:11, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
- The symbols being named after Vinča of course gives no support to the idea that they came from there; no-one gives the Serbian nationalist claims any credence anyway. But "script" is factually incorrect, as AFAIK all credible accounts deny that it's a script. — kwami (talk) 08:21, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
- Very excellent point about it not being a real 'script', Kwami! However, I do have to say that there are some people who don't like the Vinča thing who are active Wikipedia editors (I won't name names here) because of the nationalistic thing. Not me - I could care less about nationalistic claims, it all seems rather silly. But there is a history of competing nationalistic scholarly jealousy in this field, and I would really like to try to maintain the Wikipedia's adherence to the NPOV... It should, of course, come as no surprise to anyone that a subject involving more than one Balkan nation would be influenced by some kind of nationalistic controversy... --Saukkomies talk 13:33, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
- "Vinca" no more violates NPOV than "Cyrillic" or "Latin" or "kanji" do (is it universally accepted that Cyril invented Cyrillic? am I writing in Latin? why should Chinese characters be given a Japanese name?). Imagine what Italian neo-Fascists could make of most of the world using the Roman alphabet: we can't concern ourselves with such idiocy, or we'd never be able to use any name. The Vinca signs are named after the location where they were first found, or perhaps after the Vinča culture that was named after the location, a common enough occurrence in archeology. "Old European script", however, does violate NPOV in the opinions of the many scholars who have rejected it, as not only does it propose the system is a script, but it reflects Gimbutas' fringy "Old European" civilization idea. The fact that Gimbutas' ideas have received more attention on the web than reasoned scholarship is no reason for us to follow; otherwise we'd have to give astrology precedence over astronomy.
- Peter Daniels, in The World's Writing Systems, calls them "the Vinča signs":
- The Vinča signs: The Vinča culture ... is named for the Serbian site ... where it was originally excavated ... According to an analysis by Winn ... there are 210 signs; 30 are core signs, with the remainder being variants and combinations ... Gimbutas supposes ... that these marks are a writing system that records the pre–Indo-European language of her "Old European" civilization. ... It seems ... most improbable that the marks represent a language, either logographically or phonetically. Thus on the current evidence it is not possible to recognize a Vinča writing system.
- Personally, I find "Vinča signs" a somewhat more neutral title than "Vinča sign system", which involves a bit of POV as to the coherence of the signs, but either would be far preferable to anything that includes either "script" or "Old European".
- I think that we're generally agreed, aren't we? At least in the current name being inappropriate. Can we maybe have a quick show of hands as to which academic title to use, and reserve more involved discussion for after a provisional move? Either that, or revert to "Vinča symbols" per WP:BOLD and take the discussion from there. — kwami (talk) 19:00, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
- "Vinča sign system"
- "Vinča signs"
- — kwami (talk) 19:00, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that the added "system" implies a coherence which the sources do not agree on. —Joseph RoeTk•Cb, 19:07, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
What you say about how using the term "Vinča" should not violate the NPOV - it would make complete sense except for the fact that this term has become a flashpoint between Serbian scholars and other scholars from the adjoining countries. There are Romanian scholars who would be quite incensed at the idea of having this term become the default one for these proto-writing symbols that are found throughout SE Europe. In supporting your thesis, you used examples of Latin, Cyrillic, and Kanji - but none of these have been co-opted by a particular nation to try to prove that they have some kind of major claim over being the original writing system that was first invented by humans, which is what is happening here with the various nationalist claims made on these symbols.
I still do not concur that the term "Vinča" should be used. I also am in agreement with you regarding Gimbutas' "Old European" term, as well. But there is a third possibility that we could use - "Danube script". Of course, there's your point about it not really being a script, but we could probably find some kind of compromise about that. The "Danube" term is actually the one that is receiving the bulk of the published research at the moment. It's been picked up by the Italian archaeologist Marco Merlini and the Institute of Archaeomythology. Merlini may very well even be the foremost scholar in the world at this time on this subject, and he uses the term "Danube script". However, yes, there are some things I don't like about that term, but it does seem to be the one that the academic world is currently favoring, which lends a lot of weight in regards to what to name a Wikipedia article about the same thing...
So, I'd say, let's go with "Danube...(something)" - I'll leave it up to others to debate whether this should be called a "script" or whatever. But it would be in line with the bulk of the current research being published academically, and that is quite an argument in its favor, I believe. --Saukkomies talk 20:59, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
Just before this issue of the name came up, I suggested that Symbols and proto-writing of the Cucuteni–Trypillian culture, which deals primarily with the Vinča/Old European/Danube script/signs/symbols, be merged into this article. My preliminary impression is that the content that article would primarily be useful for expanding this article's section on Gimbutas' theories, and adding another section about theories that the Vinca signs and similar examples in neighbouring cultures constitute a regional tradition. As well as providing some extra details, illustrations, references and external links. After that what remains unused would probably be the parts dealing specifically with Precucuteni or Cucuteni-Trypillia examples, and those can be folded back into the main C-T culture article - though some of them can be used to illustrate the aforementioned "regional" section too. But before I get ahead of myself (too late?) I'd like to ask the editors of this article if they're amenable to a merge at all. —Joseph RoeTk•Cb, 19:24, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
- Hear, hear, Joey Roe. I think that it would be fantastic to bring all of the various articles about the SE European Neolithic proto-writing symbols into one coherent article, with perhaps some sub-articles linked with it. For my own part (as one of the major editors of the Cucuteni-Trypillian articles), I'd be more than happy to help bring this about. --Saukkomies talk 21:03, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
The language was Indo European (My reading of the "Vinca vessel" inscription)
Phonetically from right to left:
"PULIUIII" or "PULIUY"; In Slavic & Sanskrit as "Plavat, "plut(a)", प्लव, प्लुत; in English as "Float"; in German as "Fluss".
So literally a "vessel/veslo" for "floating, plavat, "swim", for the river (Fluss)...
These people were probably fishers...
The European(Etruscan, Trojan, old Greek, Italic,...) alphabet did not derive from Phoenician alphabet at all. But existed already among these people in Vinča long time before any Phoenicians.
- This isn't a discussion page to discuss the symbols, but a page to discuss the article. You need to find material that meets WP:VERIFY and WP:RS for a start. And WP:NOR. Dougweller (talk) 12:20, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
This is to draw attention to the fact that the last image in this article has been flagged (by me) for review, as it appears to contain unicode error blocks, and is sourced to an external site that gives Wikimedia Commons as the original source. The image is thus misleading and needs to be corrected by someone with actual knowledge of the subject. - Metalello talk 03:18, 1 January 2015 (UTC)