Talk:Virginia Pep Band
|WikiProject Marching band||(Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)|
|WikiProject Virginia / Albemarle County / University of Virginia||(Rated Start-class, Low-importance)|
Changed a segment at the end regarding current performances. Changed from "have perform recently at" to "perform regularly at" based on current activity patterns. 126.96.36.199 00:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
This article was somewhat NPOV, and I have attempted to fix it as best I can. Some of the things I've changed are:
- Use of unnecessarily flowery and/or sympathetic language
- Failure to cite the University and athletic department's justification for banning the band
- Linking to an op/ed article critical of the West Virginia governor and band opponents following the Tire Bowl controversy rather than the news article describing the events objectively
Also, the link to the Cavalier Marching Band should at the very least link to a stub, rather than to the University of Virginia main page. I'll see what I can do.
Dave 16:31, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the help! I like the style changes, and your rewording is for the most part fine. I don't see the reasoning for linking the marching band's homepage on a Pep Band encyclopedia article. Maybe a separate article should be devoted to it. Unfortunately some of the changes are inaccurate, but I'll fix it. Thanks again. --ElmoHoo 22:15, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No prob. I see, I fix. In answer to your question: I linked the marching band because it is mentioned several times in the article, and is currently doing the job the Pep Band did. One other question: can we be sure that the AD and the bowl officials approved the exact show that was performed at the Tire Bowl? If this cannot be verified, there should be a qualifier, such as:
- A show at the Continental Tire Bowl in 2002, which band members claim had been approved by both the University of Virginia athletic department and the bowl officials, prompted a request for an apology by the governor of West Virginia.
Along the same lines, I'm really unhappy with the clause, "but the neccessily unpredictable nature of student control proved problematic." What does that mean? It seems to imply that students changed the show at the last minute, so what was performed was not what was approved. If that is the case, then we need to say that, rather than intentionally leaving the point vague. I am guessing that you are/were a member of the band, but you can't word things to make it seem like the band didn't do anything against policy if they, in fact, did.
One more thing - please do not use "UVa" for "University of Virginia", as this type of abbreviation may not be clear to non-American readers. --Dave Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the AD approved the EXACT show performed, I should know, I was the Pep Band Show Committee Chair at the time and I was the one who had to send the scripts for approval and talk to the AD about changes. I understand the need for NPOV, and I thank you for helping make the article compliant. Sometimes it can be difficult to stay neutral in such a charged situation. As far as the unpredictability, I was trying to get at the idea that the AD was always plagued by the IDEA that we wouldn't stick to the script. It never happened to my knowledge (which really only extends to 1999), but Virginia athletics was becoming too important ($$$$$) to risk the liability. I guess the legend of the Pep Band outgrew the actual students. Anyway, I'm planning to add more history, including the Revolution of 1993 (the last time the AD tried to replace us with a faculty run band). Also, since the abbreviation UVa is mentioned in the first line of the University of Virginia article, shouldn't it be OK to use? Thanks again. --ElmoHoo 06:20, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think I've de-NPOV'd the section, based on the information you've provided. One thing you want to avoid is rebutting an argument point-by-point, or in the middle of the argument. Therefore, I moved the fact that shows are vetted into the pro-Pep Band paragraph, rather than having the information in the paragraph representing the University's position. I would suggest that when discussing the "Revolution of 1993" you take the same approach, citing valid arguments by the university in one section and then the band perspective in another (or vice-versa). I would also strongly suggest using the term "Revolution of 1993" in scare quotes and only when discussing the band's perspective.
I'd also like to compliment you on being relatively objective, despite your obvious involvement in the issue.
--Dave Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
NPOV and factual edits, May 03 2005
Please don't make me do this again. It is very important that you do not use language that is sympathetic to either side in a controversy - that is a general Wikipedia rule. Please see my explanation above. Also, I have edited out most of the quotes that are unattributable. If you are going to make statements about what was said, you must include a citation.
I understand many people here have strong feelings about what happened to the Pep Band, but the place for making your arguments is not here on Wikipedia.
Dave 15:53, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
I took a look at your changes, and agree with all of them. For the record, most of the stuff you changed wasn't mine! --ElmoHoo 16:31, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Comments Regarding History:
Exactly how firm is the connection between the post-1973 Pep Band and the Lawn Chowder Societies? Having done a fair amount of informal historical inquiries of my own regarding the band, I have never heard that there was direct descent from these groups. Are the authors of this article claiming continuity between the Pep Band and all its possible musical predecessors, including the short-lived UVa marching band that lost all its equipment back in the 1940s? The impression I have from the article is that some kind of musical "apostolic succession" is at work here, and that was never my understanding during my time in the band (1998-2002).
Someone might want to explain how the 1973 band came to be. My understanding is that one of the founding members of the 1973 group, a graduate student who had come from Yale, suggested the Ivy League scramble style. That's all I know about it, presumably Elmo knows how to get in touch with people who would know more.
As for the Sports Band of 1993, I was also under the impression that shortly after its inception the student members voted to quit and join the Pep Band. Again, Elmo, you know how to verify this.
Finally, there was significant post-1993 trouble with the AD in the 1995-1997 period (sparked by the infamous "Like Sherman Through Georgia" performance at the Peach Bowl). It is in this period that the band lost the microphone and was almost relegated to performing from the stands.
El Draque 28 June 2005 21:28 (UTC)
While I'm thinking of it, the phrase "in an official capacity" could be misleading to those who do not know about the University of Virginia's Contracted Independent Organization (CIO) system. While the Pep Band at its inception really was an official organ of the University, the reason why it's no longer the "University of Virginia Pep Band" is because in the late '80s or early '90s the University required all its student organizations to become CIOs. I presume that this move was to reduce the University's liability for student misbehavior. In any case, although the band continued to receive funds from the University's Student Activities Fund and perhaps also from the Athletic Department, my understanding is that the band was more in the position of independent contractor for the University. Maybe this is splitting hairs, but I seem to recall during my time there that both the Directors of the band and the Athletic Department were always anxious to point out the band's independent status.
I think all these questions are answered acceptably in the history on the Pep Band Webpage, which is correct to all of my knowledge. Rather than fill this article, I'm just going to link the webpage, but if you think it should be included here, go ahead!
--ElmoHoo 07:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Elvis is Dead
What was the impact of the dogpile on Elvis during the 1992 Sugar Bowl that offended the Tennessee fans ("Now we really know that Elvis is dead")? Wasn't that one of the major events that caused the band to be suspended? Or was this event just one of many?