Talk:Vishva Hindu Parishad

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject India / Politics (Rated Start-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Indian politics workgroup (marked as Low-importance).
WikiProject Hinduism (Rated Start-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hinduism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hinduism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Query re neutrality[edit]

I seriously question the neutrality of this article. It seems as if a Karsevak has penned the thing. It should be cleaned, to be neutral, or deleted altogether.

I think this page belongs here, rather than at 'World Hindu Council'. We wouldn't translate Sinn Fein - everyone calls it Sinn Fein, not "Whatever Sinn Fein means in English". This is how it's referred to in the common press and the English-language press in India... we should call it Vishwa Hindu Parishad. Graft

Or just the plain old 'VHP'
I notice that their website is now using the English spelling "Vishva Hindu Parishad". Should we switch over? It would be more consistent – in the original Hindi, the "v" and "w" in this word represent the same Nagari letter. QuartierLatin1968 18:55, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The VHP page looks more like a review of the VHP than an informative article. Varungarde

There were never Spanish in India! Did you mean maybe the Portuguese in Goa, Damao, Diu and Silvassa?

Babu shenoy

Made a change to the comment regarding Muslim mobs setting light to the train. It has been proven wrong so I added allegedly in the sentence.

It seems a bit too opinionated and not entirely objective

Specific complaints?[edit]

This article's neutrality has been disputed since December 19, but what exactly should be changed? How will we know when to remove the POV tag? Bhumiya 01:42, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the sentence: "While appropriate and justified to represent and defend over 1 billion Hindus in Bharat and throughout the world from extremism of other communities" is a specific example of POV. what makes the writer think that the VHP defends and represents all hindus?

although I did not add the NPOV tag..I think the person who did was probably refering to the the last paragraph - Place in History and the Future, which is blatantly POV. (Saurabhb 16:58, 14 January 2006 (UTC))

I have removed " They are basically against the exisitence of other religions in India" as it is patently untrue. I have modified the words are " credited with " to they are "accused of" in another sentence.Bharatveer 10:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the word "illegtimate" . See Art.48 of Indian Constitution Indian Constitution

I think that the phrase "Hindu activists returning from Ayodhya were burnt alive by a mob of Muslims" is inherently biased. While it is true that a group of Muslims attacke the train at Godhra; subsequent reports have shown the fire to have been started inside the carriage. While this is a disputed topic, I don't think that the clearly biased language and sentence is suitable for a "neutral" article. I have changed it to: "A carriage containing Hindu activists returning from Ayodhya was set on fire, killing 58 people. While initially police reports claimed the fire had been started by Muslims attacking the train at Godhra, subsequent reports have concluded the fire started from within the carriage. These reports, however, are disputed." I think this is a more neutral and less openly biased statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:30, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I think the POV issues could be helped somewhat by changing the following fragment: "For over 20 years, the VHP conducted peaceful demonstrations, petitions and tried by litigation to liberate the Ram Janmabhoomi. The Babri Mosque was in a dilapidated condition and not used for worship or any religious activity by the city's Muslims. For years the VHP amassed public support and a broader membership in its organisation." It goes on to blame the Ayodhya incident on the Bajrang Dal, effectively removing culpability from the VHP. To say that they were trying to "liberate" the Ram Janmabhoomi, with no background is completely biased. Furthermore, the effort to make it seem like the Babri Masjid was not a functional mosque, which somehow ameliorated its demolition, is also unacceptable. Some attention should be paid to the continuing religious and symbolic importance of the Masjid. 05:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Ananya

Praise ?[edit]

There is no support to the claims made in the praise section ( ie social activisim- some press release of VHP supporting this POV ?)"VHP is largely held as an organization that fills the void of the much needed activist organization to voice the Hindu concerns." -Which does not seem to be factual but seems more like an opinion. "Although, VHP's strength and prominence is very limited, its principled leadership is recognized and vastly appreciated by Hindu Indian nationalists."- Opinion again "VHP has played a critical role in responding to the burning of 56 innocent Hindu pilgrims, majority of them being women and children, in Godhra train massacre."- Do not know if this should be in praise as the response included riots which the VHP was accused of. Haphar 13:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


This articles seems to lack a great amount of citations. Mar de Sin Speak up! 03:37, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

10 references isn't enough. Mar de Sin Speak up! 03:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Put up a more appropriate tag. Mar de Sin Speak up! 03:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Right, I'm putting back your tag.Hkelkar 04:08, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, more citations have been placed, but it's still not completed. The first two paragraphs of "Ideology" and the last two paragraphs of "Growth in the 1980s" still are unaccounted for. And it seemed that you removed the corrected version of the VHP slogan I put up; I doubt that was intentional, but tell me if something's wrong with it. Mar de Sin Speak up! 19:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Well I cited the first para of "Growth in the 1980s". The rest of the section isn't my edit. I'll try to look for citations, but it will take time. Hkelkar 19:28, 26 November 2006 (UTC)



Please explain why you undid the changes I made. I don't quite understand what I did was wrong.

Thanks, R_Patel. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by R.patel (talkcontribs) 04:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

Your edits were not helpful. Inserting a title is not necessary, per the MoS. Saying Rama with a wikilink is good enough. Next "ruin" is a more POV phrase than "demolish". Next, you removed the qualification "There is a tradition..." thus turning the sentence into a statement of fact, instead of a statement of belief. Since there is no source for the claim, it is better to leave it as a qualified statement instead of a fact. Finally, you removed a sentence that was only fact tagged a few days ago. I believe we should give editors more time to come up with a source before deleting. I hope you understand why I am reverting these changes again. Please feel free to ask question, or defend your edits here on talk. Thanks for your consideration.-Andrew c 20:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The large emphasis on RJ/Babri isnt really providing readers a better view of VHP. Bhagwana Shri Rama is both POV and rather incorrect. Maryada Purushottam is the more correct honorific, but it doesnt belong either.Bakaman 20:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Andrew_c, Okay, I will let the editors have more time. Next time I do edits, I will justify them on this discussion board. Please understand that I do bring a different perspective. The editors seem a little anti-VHP and leftists. And, I think that Wikipedia community wants no bias (left or right). So I will keep a close watch on the content. As such, I accept some things you have said (such as Rama with a wikilink being good enough). However, for the rest, I will wait and see how the edits go. Thanks, R_Patel. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by R.patel (talkcontribs) 12:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

waqf board[edit]

Unless the Waqf board are experts on archaeology and not a bunch of angry fundamentalist imams crying about being proved wrong, they dont belong in the article.Bakaman 15:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mr. Bakaman, Wakf Board are government statuory body in India and not a bunch of angry fundamentalist imams crying about being proved wrong as you have said above.Please change your definitive attitude as evident in the posts like above.Please find below the text as it appears on the Central Wakf Board Site in India:
The [Central Wakf Council as a Statutory Body was established in December, 1964 by the Government of India] under the provision of Section 8A of Wakf Act, 1954 (now read as sub section 1 of the Section 9 of the Wakf Act, 1995) for the purpose of advising it on matters pertaining to working of the State Wakf Boards and proper administration of the Wakfs in the country. The Council consists of Chairperson, who is the Union Minister Incharge of Wakfs and such other members not exceeding 20 in numbers appointed by Government of India as stipulated in the Act. The Secretary is the Chief Executive of the Council. The Council office at present works at Jamnagar House, New Delhi.

If you have removed any text citing your original research on the reasoning that "The Wakf Baords are a bunch of angry fundamentalist imams crying about being proved wrong" - please reinstate them with due respect Katwaria Sarai 23:52, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring[edit]

User:Anwar saadat and User:Bakasuprman, could you please stop reverting each other and discuss these differences here on talk. You are both accusing each other of vandalism. However, neither of these versions count as WP:VANDALISM under the explicit definition, so please consider discussing matters here.-Andrew c [talk] 16:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:LIBEL. The tribune source has nothing indicating "threats" and other opprobrious incentives anwar purports they did. I am not going to let the VHP get slandered on wiki.Bakaman 16:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I can understand your concern about adding "threatened physical violence", and removing that unsourced comment seems appropriate. However, more than that phrase was reverted. All I'm saying is that repeated reverts without discussion are not productive. Talk it out. Explain to each other why you feel the changes are necessary. I'll ask Anwar saadat to join us.-Andrew c [talk] 17:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I made the following edits [1] [2] [3] to restore the article to NPOV as Baksuprman was skewing the aarticle towards POV using peacock terms without discussion. I didn't add any detail to this article. Anwar 17:50, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Maybe you could state specifically what NPOV issues you are trying to correct, and not accuse other editors of malicious actions (WP:AGF). Bakaman brings up a good point that the cited source does not say anything about any threatens of violence. And there is other content in dispute as well. Perhaps we can agree on something if we discuss the arguments for and against the revisions in question.-Andrew c [talk] 17:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
The VHP is also not angry at "toleration" of Muslims/Xtians (Abdul Kalam is the president for Christs sake) but claims the government pseudo-secular and are indulging in minority appeasement.Bakaman 18:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
One says they are angry at the 'toleration of Muslims' and the other version states that they're angry at the 'marginalisation of Hindus in favour of Muslims'. Both versions are obviously unacceptable. Since you're edit warring between two unacceptable versions, I suggest both of you stop editing this article, and wait for editors with no perspective on the subject to weigh in. Hornplease 19:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Another thing seems to be whether to call the Hindus or the Muslims "mobs". I think the term "mob" is loaded, and perhaps we shouldn't use either for the sake of being neutral. Or if we are to use the terms, make sure they are supported by the sources, and say "source X characterized the rioting groups as 'mobs'", instead of blanket stating that they were mobs. -Andrew c [talk] 20:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok we wont use "mob" then.Bakaman 14:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
The user:'''Joshua Issac''' seems to have a personal axe to grind. The edits on the Godhara riots are not refered properly. Among the two references provided one is a dead reference while second is refered back to this page itself. The changes have been revereted and the user is requested to not vandalize the page.
--Indian (talk) 01:56, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. I do not have "a personal axe to grind", and even if I do, I know that Wikipedia is not the place for grinding it. You are correct in that one of the references was not formatted properly. I used the authorlink parameter instead of the url parameter by accident. However, you are not correct about the reference being dead, or referring back to this page. One of them is a New York Times article, which you can read of you have a copy (2002-03-02). It is not dead, and it does not refer back to this page. The other is a news article by Tehelka, which is, again, neither dead nor a reference back to this page. Please note that Wikipedia:Vandalism defines vandalism as a deliberate attempt to damage Wikipedia. Please do not accuse editors of vandalism without proof. Please explain why the article should not contain the verifiable, referenced content I added. --Joshua Issac (talk) 18:32, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Since you have not responded and provided a valid reason for removing the sourced content I added to the article, I am restoring the content. --Joshua Issac (talk) 20:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC)


I am protecting the page as edit-warring and changes in contents without discussion waste a lot of resources of the community. To begin with, I am protecting the page for 3 days. However, in case, other administrator/s feel that no protection is required, please feel free to remove the protection. --Bhadani (talk) 18:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


I have reverted unsourced, incorrect, and politically mischievous statement here.Bakaman 18:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


What does RSS mean in the context of this article? It is used many ntimes and not defined once or linked to its definition. (talk) 20:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

It is used twice, in the same paragraph, with the first occurrence in brackets next to the wikilinked full form. It refers to the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh. --Joshua Issac (talk) 10:57, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Inclusion of alleged militancy - edit war[edit]

It would be good if opinions on this issue were discussed. ʙʌsʌwʌʟʌ spik ʌp! 11:15, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

STRONGLY SUPPORT - since wikipedia allows to present a point of view, that is not only held by Indians but also all over the world, and to an extent by Indian law enforcement authorities AND Indian long as we say "alleged"....we are presenting the world audience with a very justified and good point of view that stands with WP:POV and as it comes from good soures/scholarly stands by WP:POV --Pranav (talk) 18:17, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
It is ALLEGED, i.e alleged by some people, like Deobandi school of Islam, which is alleged to be breeding ground of terrorism, it is only alleged, you do not add it without adding a contrary statement, WP's important rule is to maintain a NPOV and that too not in the introductary para but in a seperate contoversy section. HotWinters (talk) 09:04, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
The two sources given here to back up this claim are a statements of a RIVAL POLITICAL PARTY in context of a statement by a VHP leader, which doesn't account to it being a militant group, not by "Indian law enforcement authorities AND Indian government". HotWinters (talk) 09:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
I'm going to go ahead and change it back; there seems for now to be no opposition to your statements. ʙʌsʌwʌʟʌ spik ʌp! 03:50, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Better references for militancy[edit]

We shall include it in the ""intro" as well as have a different ""section for it"" :) see these references
Its from FRONTLINE magazine ...... by THE HINDU.....a very well regarded press agency in India....and certainly not of rival political it now!? Now here is a VHP person going ahead and trying to state that they have not carried out terror attacks - then certainly someone must have pointed a finger at them and alleged the same! ANYWAYS BOT THE ABOVE SOURCES ARE AS GOOD AS THEY CAN GET!
AND IT KEEPS GETTING BETTER - So now...we have so much evidence from so many sources...good ones that too...CNN IBN being a branch of CNN is surely not run by Congress or is it :?
I Can give you dozen more about the VHP run terror camps.....but you will have to go to a library...coz i only have proper article and page numbers from newspapers liek times of india etc....dont seem to find these articles
so HotWinters...stop glorifying this corrupt communal party OH AND BTW......If you so love sticking to WP:POV.......stop abusing Islam ...and the DEOBANDI SCHOOL OF ISLAM......coz if you cant take criticism for your this stupid party...than I cant take criticism from you of any religious party.... (ps-even though i am an atheist)--Pranav (talk) 17:04, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I am sticking to NPOV and am not abusing anybody...ur language is non encylopedic and shuld be reported...and btw If u have any evidence then plz give as u have not and this still makes POV. HotWinters (talk) 06:52, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

btw even I am an atheist. HotWinters (talk) 06:53, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Do u even know how to use Wikipedia...this is a Talk page...what I said abt deobandis(all true btw) is not a matter of concern coz its a "talk page" not the article. Just by typing in Capitals u can't add anything. HotWinters (talk) 06:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

and stop adding anything as "sources", sources must adhere to Wikipedia's reliability policy. I think u need to go through it. Stop adding funny things like YT videos as "source", please read reliability policy. HotWinters (talk) 07:05, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

That stil dusnt put away the fact that a reporter...from a good media house....actually was in a VHP trainign camp...did u like even read the article. ?? - please do has enough content to state that VHP was happy killing muslims in gujarat (read it)...belives it has to protect its religion using voilence and arms..wishes to create a non-state armed force. and these were the very trainignc amps where the malegaon,etc bomb case plotters got their trainign from!!! I presume the very reliablilty of the fact that A "NON STATE MILITANT TRAINING CAMP EXISTS RUN BY THE VHP"..shows its militant and voilent ideologues. Any sane person would agree! --Pranav (talk) 08:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC) - Heres another one. Oh and btw just in case that you dont end up saying that it was a VHP backed outfit that carried out this terror campaign - In that case Al Qaeda to an extent is not a terrorist organisation in half the world, since in many places it only backs its outfits! So VHP will be stated to be militant as it backed the outfit. And about my language being non-encyclopedic - u sound like u wrote the brittanica! ha! You see - Its a talk page just like u sed! --Pranav (talk) 08:58, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
And one last thing - "militant" - the word as far as the definition in wikipedia in general goes, and in the dictionary goes - means - to be open to using violence to achieve an end - so if you have some other perceptions thats plane bad! This definition completely stands by what we wish to say here. VHP wants to arm people to protect its religion. Its stated goal is to protect Hindu interests world over. It goes he voilent way to do so. HENCE ITS MILITANT. If I wanted to use the world allegedly terrorist organisation - I would have first got better sources. and second the problem is "terrorism": is not even defined well by the United Nations - so we could have debated that here over and over again! MILITANT word stands by what VHP is doing. thats all I am saying!--Pranav (talk) 08:58, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I think inclusion of legitimate reportage is important for this article; we need to include information about the VHP's militant aspects. However, it's the way to do it that needs discussion; it seems to warrant being on the introduction, worded in a NPOV way; the inclusion of this information itself is certainly not POV on the basis that it's valid information. It just needs to be well balanced and neutrally presented. ʙʌsʌwʌʟʌ spik ʌp! 09:04, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay - First of all Bajrang Dal is the youth wing of VHP - complete fact! Bajrang dal has had like truckloads of allegations about it from various International media and authors that it is a militant organisation - fundamentalist to the core! Being the youth wing of an organisation makes that organisation as much militant too. This is like saying that the Nazis were not bad only the Gestapo was! Simple logic makes us understand dusnt it. - Humans right watch itself has alleged directly VHP. such credible sources of information cannot be neglected. The RSS page on wikipedia as wella s the Bajrang Dal page both ahve enough credible data to support the claims! - also targets the VHP directly! What more do we need? The facts are facts. We have to state VHP is a militant organisation in the intro part. Add why its militant. It has to be done, lest we dont want the world to get complete information!? - similarly we should not put Hamas , Hezbollah as terror organisations BUT we do even thought hey run various humanitarian centres!--Pranav (talk) 09:09, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Humans Right Watch has continuously said the same thing over and over again ; ; - --Pranav (talk) 09:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Do you even know what sources are? Do you know what Reliability Policy is? none of the sources mentioned here VHP is named a "MILITANT" all of them ALLEGATION by RIVAL groups have been made against other Right wing groups. You are asserting ur POV, thats it. HotWinters (talk) 10:19, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Your pro Islamist POV is very visible in ur comments and would be taken into consideration by other users. HotWinters (talk) 10:30, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

And Al-Qaida, Hamas and Hezbollah are not ALLEGED but DECLARED a militant group by Governments of the various countires, u cannot compare them with VHP, i.e insane. Is there any Government or Court which has DECLARED VHP as a militant group...only ALLEGATION by RIVAL groups are mentioned here, whic go against WP:NPOV. At best if u wanna add u can have a criticism section at the end of the page regarding these ALLEGATIONS. HotWinters (talk) 10:30, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

These "sources" like this, this and this declares no where that VHP(i repeat VHP) is involved...infact one of them is a pure letter by a RIVAL Christian group, where has it been DECLARED. ...In fact none of the source mentioned here states that VHP is a militant group but only talks about ALLEGATION(point to be noted) against RELATED groups. HotWinters (talk) 10:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Governments do not declare organisations militant...they only declare them terrorist. All we are saying here is that VHP uses voilent methods to meet its goals. Now if there is a better word in the whole English dictionary to put that in one adjective ....please help me ...coz i only found militant!!!, and my pro-islamic views were only presented for the sake of reason and debate. I hate these pro-Hindu saffron terror bodies-they are as a big a problem for India as is Islamic terrorism. Eye for an eye and bomb for a bomb makes everyone DEAD! The intro needs to have a point that Humans right watch itself has called VHP an anti-secular and voilent organisation!!!! PERIOD. u cannot glorify the organisation completely on the intro part. As long as we put in that HRW has sed it, we are not presenting a point of view of wikiepdia itself but a scholarly and well researched opinion of a very acclaimed organisation! The pattern is widely visible on almost every page - obviously glorifiers continuously try to change that! An intro is not complete without taking in every persepective! --Pranav (talk) 10:43, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
And once again - BAJRANG DAL - hard evidence even with Indian law enforcement authorities of it carrying out voilent deeds (militant deeds - guess you still havnt read the meaning of the word - probbly i could mail u an online dicitonary) - BAJRANG DAL is youth wing of VHP, and all i sed with al qaeda statement is that u see the umbrella only, u dont point fingers solely at the branches!--Pranav (talk) 10:43, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
As stated by reliability policy of wikiepdia - Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made - so if we write in "HRW has stated in a 70 page report that the VHP, RSS and Bajrang Dal (youth wing of the VHP) have carried out voilent and insecular acts against Muslims"etc etc providing the reference to that - we are adhering to the policy and POV--Pranav (talk) 10:47, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Are u for real?...I am not here to discuss ur world view abt Jihaadis and still haven't provided a source in which VHP is declared a militant group...only alleged. HotWinters (talk) 10:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Look at Hamas page, it clearly say with sources that " The European Union, the United States, Canada, Israel and Japan classify Hamas as a terrorist organization"...has anybody declared anything like that in this case? HotWinters (talk) 11:02, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if anybody claim to have evidences against a group, unless they are declared a militant group they are not...they are only ALLEGED which has to be eventually nullified in a CONTROVERSY section. HotWinters (talk) 11:10, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

GOSH! It looks like you really need to learn to READ EVERYTHING BEFORE TYPING....

As stated by reliability policy of wikiepdia - Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made - so if we write in "HRW has stated in a 70 page report that the VHP, RSS and Bajrang Dal (youth wing of the VHP) have carried out voilent and insecular acts against Muslims"etc etc providing the reference to that - we are adhering to the policy and POV. Thats all I am saying. It sticks to the policies and needs to be put up. I am not going to keep on putting my previosu comments about why we need to put it in the intro section (read above) here again and again to a blind person who just doesnt read the whole thing and barks off with his glorifying rhetorics! --Pranav (talk) 11:20, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Do u know we are not writting essays here but are editing a WP encyclopedic article???? You are adding an allegation by one group, that DOES NOT make it a militant group as whole, that will be considered ONLY an allegation. Human rights watch(which also does not call it a militant group but only level allegations) is an NGO. Many NGOs call Islam a terrorist ideology, would we call it a terrorist ideology? Your language is a clear epitome of ur personal frustration and how desperate you are to add ur POV. WP is not a place to do that. HotWinters (talk) 13:16, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Of course not all NGOs are neutral/reliable, but HRW is certainly and uncontroversially a reliable and citable source. ʙʌsʌwʌʟʌ spik ʌp! 23:54, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality is subjective, still its just one NGO which have just ALLEGED, a militant group is one which is declared so by a state or judiciary, like Al-Qaida, Hamas or Hezbollah. HotWinters (talk) 05:16, 14 March 2011 (UTC)