Talk:Swami Vivekananda

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Too many subsections[edit]

I have a feeling this third tier headings (under the subsection With Ramakrishna) are not needed. Some of those sub-subsection are quite small. Moreover, not every information available needs to be in the article. Summary form is what is really encouraged. The sub-subsection on Pavhari baba also does not need a separate heading. What do you think? --Dwaipayan (talk) 01:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree, and have combined several two. Miniapolis 02:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Problem still persists. Merged some. Regular editors need to check for merge of sections in 1st and 2nd sections. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:41, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Swami Vivekananda/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 15:23, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I shall be pleased to review this interesting and well-written article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:23, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much for starting the review --TitoDutta 07:32, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for promoting it to GA.--Nvvchar. 10:04, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Comments[edit]

  • Monastic vows: would be nice to know what the name Vivekananda means. Ananda = bliss; Viveka = wisdom, apparently.
  • The Swami himself explained the meaning of his name, ‘Viveka’ meaning “perception” in this reference [1] and 'Ananda' means “bliss” or “joy” as per this [[2] and his guru named him as Vivekananda. If this expatiation is adequate then I will add it in the text.--Nvvchar. 08:57, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Okay. TitoDutta 09:04, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • As a child he was restless, but "played by meditating"? Perhaps "played at meditating"?
  • Fixed--Nvvchar. 08:57, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Education: Herbert Spencer is named in list, then discussed in next sentence. Could omit from list, link in sentence about him?
  • Yes check.svg Done TitoDutta 07:31, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Yogi's eyes. Might be useful to link this.
  • Yogi has been linked--Nvvchar. 08:57, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • 1st visit to Ramakrishna not considered first meeting: why not? Seems surprising: does the source explain this?
  • In November 1881 Vivekananda met Ramakrishna in Surendranath Mitra's house in Kolkata. There Ramakrishna invited him to Dakshineswar. We had details in version. Now, after recent edits, I can see details of that portion. See the older version, if you want I can re-add content from there. TitoDutta 07:31, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I have added content from older version. TitoDutta 08:52, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Seems to have had a big influence on Christopher Isherwood. Should he be mentioned (beyond having a book cited) in Influence and legacy?
  • North: quoted a Persian poem: in the original? (Did V. speak Persian like his father?)
  • Source does not mention it. TitoDutta 08:08, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • He visited Nainital, ... Maybe "He visited the sacred sites of Nainital, ..." if that's the intended meaning. Would a map marked with these places be helpful here? Same goes for other travels.
  • Fixed.
  • Photos: did monks often have photos taken - it seems noteworthy?
  • Any photo of Vivekananda's childhood or early life has not been found. The first available photo was taken in 1887. Between 1886—1894, some 10 or so photos of Vivekananda are found. But, from the year 1893, when he visited the West, we have many images of Vivekananda of every year (mainly between 1893—1900). You may see commons:Swami Vivekananda. Yes, some of those photos are noteworthy. TitoDutta 07:41, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • West: "with learned pandits". Gloss or wikilink.
  • Done. Wikilinked TitoDutta 07:36, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • South: stayed with the Maharaja. Why would the Maharaja entertain a monk? There's something missing here. Presumably his fame was growing but the article doesn't indicate this. By the last paragraph he has "some of his most devoted disciples" but we haven't really heard anything about a following up to heere.
  • I meant: South: "stayed at the palace as a guest of Maharaja of Mysore Chamaraja Wodeyar." You have answered many small queries but not one large one, which is, how? I guess this is the mystery of fame, but somehow a wandering monk has travelled about and within a few years is being entertained at a Maharaja's palace, without explanation or comment. All the words like "notable" and "historic" can be included or crossed out, but the central mystery has not been touched upon. How did the Maharaja get to hear about him? Was it all word of mouth, was V. in the newspapers? Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:29, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Seshadri Iyer, who was an employee at the King's court, introduced Vivekananda to the king, I have added details. --TitoDutta 09:04, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Will this explanation be adequate to his popularity which is attributed to two aspects as explained in this reference [3] pages 125-128. a)They were impressed by the amazing sweep and depth of his knowledge and the illumination of his spirit and his easy grace.of kingly manners and b) A sanayasin speaking English with full command was an astonishment.and his presentation of Vedanata meaning as the living Vedanta as “love” presented with quivering deep feeling touched every one? --Nvvchar. 09:25, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • The facts just need to be stated simply with as few adjectives ('amazing', 'kingly', 'easy') as possible to maintain a neutral tone; direct, cited quotes can of course include such things. The issue was how they met and how the knowledge of his qualities spread, which is pretty much handled now, but the fact of his speaking English is certainly relevant, as is the effect of his knowledge and manners. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:30, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • First visit: "historic": why? The reader doesn't know this yet. Are we assuming readers already know the story?
  • Removed the word "historic" TitoDutta 07:31, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Parliament: brevity of his speech: presumably it was more than just these quotes.
  • Great Orator: lower case, probably.
  • Done, changed to "an orator" TitoDutta 07:36, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • texts to English: in English?
  • Fixed
  • Swmaiji - should be Swamiji, or just 'the Swami' as honorifics are generally deprecated here. Check other occurrences.
  • Fixed
  • We are twice told he influenced/inspired Bose and Tilak (Colombo to Almora and Influence and legacy).
  • Removed from Colombo to Almora
  • "V. is seen as a role model ..." - was seen in 2009, actually. Please provide date.
This has been removed, but was cited. Perhaps a quote with the ref would suit the article here.

GA Table[edit]

Rate Attribute Review Comment
1. Well-written:
1a. the prose is clear and concise, it respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct. ok
1b. it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. lead - ok, though it contains 10 refs - should not be necessary if these are also in article. layout ok; weasel: generally ok, slight use of honorifics. fiction: n/a; lists: n/a.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. excellent.
2b. all in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines. excellent.
2c. it contains no original research. ok
3. Broad in its coverage:
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. See comments. All the main aspects are now satisfactorily covered. This article was formerly at FA and it would be good to see it with that status again, for which it will require more attention to flow and to detail.
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). Probably. There is a pressure in such articles to give a lot of detail of key devotional moments without necessarily explaining why these are important.
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each. Article certainly tries hard to be even in tone.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. I think so. There's a steady amount of chatter but the article's shape hasn't changed much lately.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by images:
6a. images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content. All images are from Commons and are tagged.
6b. images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. well-chosen.
7. Overall assessment. This interesting article on a major subject in the transmission of Hindu thought to the West is now well up to GA standard.
  • Thank you very much for the review. TitoDutta 09:38, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello..I have read in one biography that Vivekananda itself predicted that someone much like a modern version of a yogi which has a very similar name as his will one day speak about the unity of all worldy religions at the world parliment of religions? Please include?i dont remember the publishers name or anything of that sort..Sorry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.140.33.87 (talk) 11:55, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Swami[edit]

Copied from User talk:Joshua Jonathan#Vivekananda

You reverted, reintroducing "Swami". You should be aware that this has previously discussed here in regards the move which corrected the article title. Please reconsider. An edit war would not be productive. LeadSongDog come howl! 07:24, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

LeadSongDog No consensus to change "swami", in fact a new page move may better decide. How come page moves are establishing consensus for content? Bladesmulti (talk) 07:45, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
Where's the discussion? The linked page only says "the closure was within "the closing admin's discretion"". That's quite different from a "discussion". And the closure was about the page-name, not the name by which (Swami) Vivekananda is known. From WP:BOLDTITLE:
"Only the first occurrence of the title and significant alternative titles are placed in bold: "Mumbai, also known as Bombay, is the capital of the Indian state of Maharashtra.""
The use of the term "Swami" is not restricted to his followers, but is also being used by academics, for example William Radice (1998), "Swami Vivekananda and the modernization of Hinduism", Oxford University Press.
Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:21, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
Titodutta are you still interested in new page move? Bladesmulti (talk) 08:45, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
@Joshua Jonathan: To read a closed-and-folded discussion, you'll need to click on the "show" at the right of the closure comment. We've been over the same issue many times. wp:AT is the policy on article titles, with five (not just one) WP:CRITERIA for consideration when comparing possible article titles. It directs further attention to specific Wikipedia:Naming conventions (clergy) and it in turn to the even more specific wp:NCINDIC. The MOS page only serves to clarify their application. Similar discussions apply to clerics as to nobility. Membership in a group, dynastic succession, apostolic succession, rank structure, etc is widely accompanied by honourifics and similar prefixes that Wikipedia seeks to avoid, if only because many of them are confusing to our readers. We want one article title irrespective of all the different personal titles, honourifics, forms of address and such that are used over the course of a lifetime. We seek the least possible POV in the selection of an article title unless this will create unreasonable confusion. If there was an article about another similarly-prominent person with the name Vivekananda we might call this article Swami Vivekananda or Vivekananda (swami), but as that is not the case, there is no need to disambiguate and those are simply redirects. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:52, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, I hadn't noticed the "Show"-link. I understand the rationale for the page-title without "Swami", and I have no intention whatsoever to reopen that discussion. So that's not the point. The point is that Vivekananda is also knwon, better known, as Swami Vivekanada. So, that should be mentioned, shouldn't it? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:03, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
That version seems like a reasonable compromise, in line with the common practice of "also known as" statements.— Preceding unsigned comment added by LeadSongDog (talkcontribs) 00:24, 12 October 2014
  • Ya, you may start a new move request, I have got a fever currently, I may need 24 hours' or so bed rest. :( --TitoDutta 19:40, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
Ho, I won't. I don't want to move the page, I kust want "Swami" to be mentioned. The first line of the lead is fine place to do so; the title of the page is another issue. Beterschap, by the way. Off to bed! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:10, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved Consensus indicates that in this case swami is not used as an honorific.  Philg88 talk 10:20, 12 November 2014 (UTC)



VivekanandaSwami VivekanandaSwami is not really an honorific term. Within the mainstream scholarship and literature, he is usually referred as Swami Vivekananda. It was the original title of the article as well. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:33, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

  • Support That is not exactly an honorific in this case. He is commonly referred-to/known-as Swami Vivekananda. A google search[4] for the exact phrase "Swami Vivekananda" returned about 52,90,000 results. Two randomly picked references: Tweed, Thomas (1999). Asian religions in America : a documentary history. New York: Oxford University Press. p. 130. ISBN 0-19-511338-1. , Barnes, Michael (2002). Theology and the dialogue of religions. Cambridge, U.K. New York: Cambridge University Press. p. 160. ISBN 0-521-00908-1.  --AmritasyaPutraT 05:07, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Is there an article on some other more prominent person named Vivekananda? Whether a prefix or suffix is an honorific, a job description, a form of address, or just some other adjective, we try to avoid making it part of an article title per the policy, wp:AT. Why should this article be a special case? LeadSongDog come howl! 05:18, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Strongest possible SUPPORT ever: AmritasyaPutra, don't waste time in collecting references. These people never read. Last time I told everything I could say. They neither did or could reply anything (or most of the points), see my and Dharmadhakshya's post, the table created by Dharmadhakshya, references etc. No one replied anything, but the article was "moved".
    All our hour-long studies went in vein. LeadSongDog just doesn't understand things, after moving this article, he moved a bunch of other articles without caring to start any RM.
    Everywhere he is called "Swami Vivekananda". It is a clear case of common name. That's how he is known.
    PS: I am tired to repeat points again and again. Please refer to our last studies and the stats we presented. --TitoDutta 07:14, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment. Reviewing all the Swami article titles with and without redirects seems to show that Swami is generally not used but there is no real logical consistency in my view on the matter. No real opinion either way, but helpful I hope. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:32, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes, they moved all articles. We are talking about common name. --TitoDutta 07:36, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Support I agree that Swami is not really an honorific term. As far I know, some people of south India has "Swami" in there birth name but in this case it is different, no one can find a source which states that in the name "Swami Vivekananda", "Swami" is not a honorific. Wide use of "Swami Vivekananda" in reliable sources doesn't necessarily mean that "Swami" is not a honorific although one can prove that in India "Swami" is used as honorific For example:Swami Ramdev . But I support this move because in this case honorific is so commonly attached to the name that it is rarely found in English reliable sources without the honorific. For example: Mother Teresa, While it is known that "Mother" is commonly used as a honorific, since the majority of the sources says her "Mother Teresa" so article with that title is not something unbelievable. Jim Carter 16:48, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Since some of you seem determined not to do your reading, I will explain (once again) that COMMONNAME is only one of five criteria applied at wp:AT. It does not outweigh the others. Since most or all members of elites or other select groups (whether that is the swami order, or the List of Ayatollahs, or the List of Metropolitans and Patriarchs of Moscow) tend to adopt a common identifying adjective for members of the group. We use those adjectives in redirects, but we keep the primary article title as wp:CONCISE as practical, just in case someone can't remember or just doesn't know how to spell or where to place the extra verbiage (Swami or Svami or Swamiji or Srisriswamiji or Shri Shri Swamiji or whatever). Add all the redirects you think are necessary, and nobody will mind. We simply don't put all that in the main title of the article without a strong reason to do so. Most of the articles that still have such titles are in error, and should be corrected. LeadSongDog come howl! 22:38, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Your mentioned "some of you" ("us") have already studied these things. Therefore, you please do some sturdy now. You are mentioning WP:AT page, there in the first section, they mention "Naturalness". "Swami Vivekananda" is the "natural" and "common" name.
    I have seen your works in other articles. You are "definitely" doing it on good faith, but I am unable to understand, where it is going wrong!!
    Him has given a wonderful example of Mother Teresa. --TitoDutta 01:13, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Indeed, and talking about how people spell Swami or add extra verbiage is a red herring: this particular person is most often known by "Swami Vivekananda" in English. —innotata 10:23, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Question -- Would an equivalent to this be something like Mahatma Gandhi, where Mahātmā is an honorific title but is still overwhelmingly used as though it is the subject's common name?--Yaksar (let's chat) 04:50, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Mahatma Gandhi is the subject's common name, yes. Yes, I think this discussion is equivalent to keeping "Mahatama Gandhi" as article title instead of "Gandhi".--AmritasyaPutraT 05:19, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
@Yaksar: Yes, it is equivalent. That is Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi is widely recognized by the name Mahatma Gandhi. In the same way, Vivekananda is widely recognized as Swami Vivekananda. As already noted. Clear case of COMMONNAME. Jim Carter 06:19, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Clearly the above piling-on is not leading to any new insight. Once again, the policy is wp:AT. It has five criteria, not just one. Endless repetition about wp:COMMONNAME while ignoring wp:PRECISION and the others is not in the least bit convincing. The policy, together with wp:Naming_conventions_(clergy) and wp:NCIN make it obvious that the reason for special cases has to be strong. Teresa is far too ambiguous, so the added "Mother" makes it sufficiently wp:PRECISE. There are articles on various other Ghandis, such as Indira Ghandi, so even though Mahatma Ghandi was and still is very COMMONly referred to (worldwide) simply as "Ghandi", we redirect that and use the more precise article title in his case. We don't use two words when one will do, but when one won't do, we add the minimum necessary to serve the purpose. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:23, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
But these cases are not exactly the same. The reason that we have mother Teresa at it's current title has nothing to do with the fact that she is not the primary topic for Teresa. Even if she was, the current title would remain her overwhelmingly common name. As it stands, following the honorific guidelines to the letter we should have her at something like Teresa (catholic figure), but we all agree that the current one is instead best. Gandhi is also a different case -- we don't have his name as not simply Gandhi because he's not necessarily the primary topic over other Gandhi's -- the term does, after all, redirect right to him.--Yaksar (let's chat) 17:33, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Can you dispute that he is better known as "Swami Vivekananda"? If the name was not precise enough that would be a problem, but why is it so horrible to use two-word names that are "too" precise? Can you elaborate on why (and where) the policy says that? —innotata 18:42, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
So you haven't bothered to even read the first line of wp:PRECISE before asking? Please, earn the good faith being shown and do the necessary work.LeadSongDog come howl! 19:56, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
I had already read it, it doesn't say must always, it says usually. I still don't understand why this should override using commonly recognised names. That is, I don't see any reason apart from "it is policy", and the policy only talks about what is usually done. —innotata 05:08, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose People are misunderstanding COMMONNAME and ignoring PRECISE etc. Even in the examples at COMMONNAME we say "... the concept of commonly used names in support of recognizability". Unless there are a multitude of Vivekanandas, the Swami is redundant. We don't habitually do it for kings, popes etc etc and there is no need habitually to do it for Indian religious figures. - Sitush (talk) 02:30, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
  • People are misunderstanding COMMONNAME. . . Not exactly. Explaining a bit later in this reply. Unless there are a multitude of VivekanandasPlease note, we are not asking to add "Swami" to disambiguate. That's how he is "known".
    In 1893, when he got the name (note:I edit this site), he was named "Swami Vivekananda", and not Vivekananda. And from then he is known by that name. He introduced the word "Swami" to the West. Few newspapers at that time wrote their reports with "Swami came, Swami said, Swami did. . " etc. format, thinking "Swami" was his first name. --TitoDutta 05:21, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
    • It is certainly how he is known to some but it is far from being the style by which he is referred to by all. Even the webpage that you link more often than not uses "Vivekananda" without the "Swami". Like it or not, Swami is an honorific. - Sitush (talk) 13:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
  • No, that is known to and used by most of writers, newspapers etc.. Even in Chicago, they named a road Swami Vivekananda Way or Avenue. When Barack Obama visited India, he referred the monk as "the renowned Swami Vivekananda" with audio. Please refer the stats presented in the last RM, or clearly tell me, what type of reference I should present here? Would you be happy If I once again present 5-6 different Government's websites, or his own signatures, or mentions in the best newspapers in India/anywhere? What I told in the last few RMs and at move review too, "Swami" may be an honorific. BUT, when for Swami Vivekananda, it is a part of the name we use and what he is commonly called.
    LeadSongDog, Sitush, please tell me clearly, that, "Tito, show us this and this source" and I'll try to collect mentioned documents. --TitoDutta 14:42, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
  • It is pretty pointless just referring to evidence presented at the last RM. Tito. Unless you feel that RM was improperly closed. - Sitush (talk) 16:58, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
  • As for naming of roads etc, well, there are horse races etc named after monarchs - King George V Stakes etc - but that doesn't meant we use "King" in the title of the article for the monarch. - Sitush (talk) 17:00, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
That's correct Sitush. Further it is preposterous to contend that the monarch takes "King" or "Queen" as a forename, it's a title or a form of reference. "The King" or "the Swami" or "the Mayor" are personal titles/honorifics/reference styles, but our articles belong at George VI the king, Vivekananda the swami or former New York mayor Ed Koch.

LeadSongDog come howl! 17:36, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

    • Just use common sense, if people here start calling any of us "Sir XX" then will we change our signature "XX" to "Sir XX"? I hope no because it is a honorific. We will certainly not call ourself "Sir XX". In the same way, Swami Vivekananda or Vivekananda will obviously not add "Swami" in his signature if it is a honorific but there are evidence that he used "Swami" in his signature which implies that "Swami" is not a honorific in this case. Jim Carter 10:57, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
  • No. Your examples are not correct. Both the cases are different. For example: Sources says that Catherine de' Medici was the Queen of France. But in this case, no sources says that Vivekananda was a Swami but sources says "Swami Vivekananda" not "Vivekananda, the Swami". Jim Carter 15:25, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
    • Wrong. Certainly latter-day devotees (who have put out most of the publications about him through the Math or other related groups) have tilted the field, but when one looks at independent publications, things change a bit. For example here one sees "by the Swami Vivekananda", or here one sees "Vivekananda's influence on Subhas". Sometimes even within the walled garden one finds works such as "Śrī Vivekānanda karma yoga sūtra śatakam = Hundred aphorisms on karma yoga based on Vivekananda" OCLC 6903434. Here, we see an announcement by the Vedanta Society of a series of "lectures by the Swami Vivekanada". LeadSongDog come howl! 20:45, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
      • No. latter-day devotees (who have put out most of the publications about him through the Math or other related groups) have tilted the field - It is possible that publications from Advaita Ashrama may use that title but other independent publishers like - Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press have also used "Swami". The so called non independent publishers have also used "Vivekananda" in there books while the title of the book mentions the subject as "Swami Vivekananda". For example: In the book, A Short Life of Swami Vivekananda, published by Advaita Ashrama, author: Tejasananda, ISBN 978-81-7505-030-33 mentioned the subject as "Vivekananda" in page 55 but in the same book the author has mentioned the subject as "Swami Vivekananda" multiple times in pages=77, 111 and 118. Independent Bengali language publishers like "Value Orientation publishers" has also mentioned him as "Swami Vivekananda" see যুব নায়ক িবেবকান 1st edition 1995 ISBN 81-85843-69-4 (Bengali), the title of the book mention the subject as "Vivekananda" but the pages -৩ to ৫১ (3-51) is full of "Swami Vivekananda" mentions. For example: Abhishek Bachchan is sometime also mentioned by independent sources as "Bachchan" or "Jr. Bachchan" does that mean we should move the article to Bachchan? Obviously no. In the same way authors sometime mentions "Swami Vivekananda" as "Vivekananda" in there books. Here in this image the subject has included "Swami" in his signature which proves that "Swami" in this case is not honorific. The above mentioned image is the most reliable source here because the subject himself confirms there name as "Swami Vivekananda". And yes that image can be used as a source. Jim Carter 11:18, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
        • read this and you'll see that during his lifetime the authorized texts referred to "The Swami" and "The Swami Vivekananda". Recent publications can't be trusted, they've been revised. LeadSongDog come howl! 07:56, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── It will be of no help. Bringing sources will be of no help here. I can bring hundreds of such sources which says "Swami Vivekananda" and not "The Swami Vivekananda". We can never reach consensus like this. Publications prior 1940s also mention the subject as "Swami Vivekananda". And the most prominent source here is the signed image above. The subject confirmed their name is "Swami Vivekananda". @LeadSongDog you have to understand my viewpoint. It appears that you are ignoring any evidence that is countering your point of view. Please read this. Thanks! Jim Carter 11:16, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

  • Oppose per arguments raised at last RM, mostly that Swami is an honorific. Yes, "Swami" is probably the common name, I'm not contesting the sources, but it should still be omitted by Wikipedia's no-honorifics policy, it's a bit of a slippery slope (include PBUH's in Muhammad's article?! I was also in favor of moving "Saint Joseph" to "Joseph of Nazareth", although that move failed...) SnowFire (talk) 18:46, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Recent changes[edit]

Bengali itself is not a nationality. --TitoDutta 21:20, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Please explain why Bengali doesn't qualify to be a nationality. And also how he could be an Indian given India became independent in 1947? If you are considering anyone who was born before 1947 with in the border of modern day Republic of India was an Indian, does it mean Rudyard Kipling also was an Indian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shoshanko (talkcontribs) 21:42, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

  • Kipling aside, Bengal or Bengali is not a country (was not at the time of British Raj), so how that can be a nationality. Are you confused between ethnicity and nationality ? Kipling's nationality was Indian or British is a different matter and should be discussed at the relevant talk page. --Vigyanitalkਯੋਗਦਾਨ 02:01, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually nationality can be used as a synonym of ethnicity according to most dictionaries. One of the definition of nationality is " An ethnic group of people forming a part of one or more political nation". Given Swami Vivek belonged to a very distinct ethnic Bengali group in Bengal which was part of a Colonial political entity named British Raj, I think his Bengali nationality is more accurate.

In this instance, even if we do not want to consider his ethnicity as his nationality, should his nationality not be British given he was born in a British political/colonial entity named British Raj?

And also, how can we justify his nationality as Indian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shoshanko (talkcontribs) 09:12, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

  • Actually nationality can be used as a synonym of ethnicity according to most dictionaries — there is NO consensus on it here on Wikipedia, go and try to get one. Don't know about your unnamed dictionaries, reading the first line of Wikipedia article Nationality Nationality is the legal relationship between a person and a country. Who calls M. K. Gandhi and Bal Gangadhar Tilak a Gujarati or Marathi freedom fighter? --TitoDutta 10:59, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Swami Ji On Jainism[edit]

“What could have saved Indian society from the ponderous burden of omniferous ritualistic ceremonialism, with its animal and other sacrifices, which all but crushed the very life of it, except the Jain revolution which took its strong stand exclusively on chaste morals and philosophical truths? Jains were the first great ascetics and they did some great work. ‘Don’t injure any and do good to all that you can, and that is all the morality and ethics, and that is all the work there is, and the rest is all nonsense-the Brahmins created that. Throw it all away.’ And then they went to work and elaborated this one principle all through, and it is most wonderful ideal: how all that we call ethics they simply bring out from that one great principle of non-injury and doing good.” (Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda, Volume 3)[1][2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by जैन (talkcontribs) 09:27, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

They are unreliable citations. Bladesmulti (talk) 09:33, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
@जैन: can you provide page number with edition so that we may check? Thank you. --AmritasyaPutraT 10:06, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

The complete works of Swami Vivekananda (Volume 3) Official Pages-

जैन (talk) 10:48, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

  • Hello, in addition to what Bladesmulti and AmritasyaPutra have said, in this article we are not really writing Swami Vivekananda's views on other religions, philosophies etc.. You may try it in Teachings and philosophy of Swami Vivekananda (but that article too is not well-developed at this moment). Regards. --TitoDutta 10:37, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestion. @Titodutta — Preceding unsigned comment added by जैन (talkcontribs) 10:49 12 January 2015 (UTC)

  1. ^ https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_3/Buddhistic_India
  2. ^ http://nirmukta.com/2010/12/07/the-great-hero-who-conquered-karma/