Talk:Whitey Bulger

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Biography (Rated C-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 
WikiProject United States / FBI / Massachusetts (Rated C-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject FBI (marked as Mid-importance).
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Massachusetts.
 
WikiProject Criminal Biography (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is part of WikiProject Criminal Biography, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed library of criminal-related biographical articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Over-reliant on Weeks' book (NPOV)[edit]

As a former associate of Bulger, Kevin Weeks is not a neutral source. His book is certainly a useful as primary source material but its account should not be taken on its face. For example, the section about Howie Carr is essentially a distillation of Weeks' reflections on the journalist and mentions nothing about Carr's two popular press books related to Bulger. I don't have this text on hand but it might provide a good starting place for correcting some of the NPOV issues in this article. --Driscoll (talk) 23:26, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Troubling lack of reliable sources[edit]

This article is missing a great many citations. Lots of allegations are being made but in many instances they are not backed up by any sources. Also, some of the sources used are questionable. For example, I would not consider Bulger's fellow hoodlums as adequate reliable sources. They could be just making some of this stuff up. They are hardly reliable. So many more sources need to be added to this article. Blackie Lstreet (talk) 07:29, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree and downgraded it to "C" class as well as tagging the article with {ref improve}. If assertions are not cited very soon then whole sections may start disappearing per WP:BLP. Veriss (talk) 07:57, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
There's plenty sources out there (NY Times, etc) - like I said, I don't have time, but it would be great if someone could take the time to cite. Connormah (talk) 13:53, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. He's well-known by his nickname, and the proposed compromise (James "Whitey" Bulger) is needlessly verbose. -- Hadal (talk) 04:38, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


Whitey BulgerJames J. Bulger – This page was moved from James J. Bulger to Whitey Bulger by an user who claimed that Bulger is better known by his nickname. This claim seems to be dubious and I feel that the previous title is much better than the current one. Thoughts? Karppinen (talk) 15:56, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Well... [1]. --causa sui (talk) 16:15, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Oppose - He is most definitely more well-known by his nickname. Connormah (talk) 18:22, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Move to James "Whitey" Bulger I'm not sure what the google link above is supposed to prove by itself, but glancing at some of the results it pulls up the news refer to him almost exclusively as James Whitey Bulger or James "Whitey" Bulger, and essentially never as solely Whitey Bulger. So, based on the evidence rather than personal opinion, the current title is clearly not the correct one and a move is necessary. James "Whitey" Bulger would appear to be the most suitable target, again based on the evidence. GDallimore (Talk) 19:09, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose it's either James Whitey Bulger or Whitey Bulger. He is better known by his nickname. 65.94.47.63 (talk) 04:00, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose - He has always been refered to as Whitey Bulger more than his full name by the media. TBird100636 (talk) 04:15, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Support move to James "Whitey" Bulger - BorisG (talk) 04:32, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Move to James "Whitey" Bulger - per GDallimore. GcSwRhIc (talk) 12:31, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose that proposal — his name is either James "Whitey" Bulger or just Whitey Bulger. Preferably the current name to keep it simple. —Designate (talk) 21:58, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Most readers are going to have some awareness of this person through both recent and older media accounts, which are heavily biased towards using "Whitey Bulger". As long as the first sentence makes it clear that the person's "real" name is "James J. Bulger", then the article title should remain at it's current location, per the Common name policy (ie.: Oppose).
    — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 04:15, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Alleged"[edit]

I understand the idea behind reverting my change that removed "alleged" as a prefix to crime boss, but here's the thing to remember: His title of "crime boss" is not specifically related to the current charges that he has not yet been convicted of. It is quite proper to refer to the crimes that he is currently accused of as "alleged", but these *new* charges are separate from his status as a "crime boss". He is *NOT* an "alleged" crime boss, his status as a "crime boss" is supported by fact. NOW, the crimes he is currently accused of are "alleged" - until conviction. TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. 76.22.32.86 (talk) 01:29, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. —Designate (talk) 01:47, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Where has it been established that he is a crime boss? It is only alleged at this point. He is charged with running a crime organization in violation of RICO. Until he gets convicted, it is only alleged. The use of alleged is required under BLP, until it is an established fact. Remember that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, even notorious people. BLP applies to this guy, no matter how evil he may be or is portrayed as, until he is found guilty of the charges. Blackie Lstreet (talk) 03:50, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
AGAIN, you are thinking of his PRESENT situation, and not taking into consideration his known and established history PRIOR to his current situation. Any argument you supply that discusses the current charges against him are IRRELEVANT. We are not talking about his current legal issues, which are at this point (if you insist) only "alleged". HOWEVER, his involvement with the Winter Hill Gang is well established. He's a former crime boss, not some grandpa who got in trouble kiting a check. Is he innocent until proven guilty of the charges that resulted in his arrest? OF *****ING* COURSE. That has exactly ZERO to do with his long time standing as a well known crime boss. And seriously, what do YOU think he is? Just some innocent grandpa mistakenly accused of 20 murders? Sure, OK - until the conviction. But conviction or no, he is a self-admitted crime boss (have you even looked into his own words on the issue? His ***BROTHER'S*** words on the issue?). I would suggest certain things about talking out of one's ass, but such conversational devices are frowned upon here at Wikipedia. As they say, "nothing to see here, move on...." Now, may I ask what your reason for objecting to applying the appropriate title to this guy is? Serious question: You think this guy is just some innocent business man being railroaded by The Govment? Really? I'm not biased, I have no dog in this race, but I ***DO*** follow the news. He's what is commonly known as a crime boss, and has admitted to it in the past. Rather than just saying it isn't so, do you have any real evidence? Background? Talking points? ANYTHING? 76.22.32.86 (talk) 04:53, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Easy. —Designate (talk) 06:39, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

You need to provide a reliable source that says that he is a crime boss, and I don't mean Howie Carr or a thug, but a reputable source. I think you will find that reputable sources call him an alleged crime boss, not a crime boss. I don't have to prove a negative. Since you are the one calling him a crime boss you are the one who needs to come up with a reliable source that says this. I'm not saying that he is not a crime boss in my subjective opinion. I think he is. But my subjective opinion does not matter. What matters is what has been established as fact through the courts and what has been reported in reliable sources. Until it is established in some definitive way, he is only an alleged crime boss. That is the proper way to refer to him under BLP. Blackie Lstreet (talk) 20:35, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Here is merely one of dozens of citations to reliable sources that indicate that it is accepted that Bulger is a "crime boss". -- Yellowdesk (talk) 03:05, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
After a quick scan of the news articles online it appears that most reputable news sources consider him to be a crime boss or former crime boss. I think we can sleep well at night knowing that we did not malign this individual by falsely asserting that he is, or was, a crime boss. Veriss (talk) 07:13, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
Yep. The fact that he was a crime boss is not disputed anymore than Mohamed Atta's role in 9/11 is disputed—the facts are facts, no court appearance necessary. Putting the word "alleged" contradicts the rest of the article which presents his roles as fact. "Crime boss" is hardly a legal term to begin with. —Designate (talk) 21:54, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Korean War?[edit]

  • Is there anything in his biographies or DD-214 to back this up? 69.143.110.86 (talk) 22:43, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Main picture[edit]

I couldn't find the relevant sentence in the policy, but shouldn't the main image be one of Bulger from his prime? --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 01:34, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Pedophile[edit]

In the 1990's in both the Boston Globe & the Boston Herald there were articles alleging that Whitey Bulger and a friend "broke-in" a couple of 13 year old girls by giving them heroin, and once the girls were hooked, that they then used these girls for sex for years. One of the articles also mentioned that one of those girls died of a drug overdose by her early 20's. Where these stories ever verified to the degree that they could be mentioned in this Wikipedia article? If so this would also mean that Bulger is an alleged pedophile. Good-wins-eventually (talk) 14:39, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Here is the source, so there is no question that he is an alleged pedophile and the article should say so, right at the top. http://business.highbeam.com/3972/article-1G1-73002338/stolen-innocence-special-report-whitey-bulger-exploited Good-wins-eventually (talk) 14:52, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

It's been added to the article, citations included. Good-wins-eventually (talk) 15:22, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Too much Weeks[edit]

In 2011, another editor said that too much of the article is based on Weeks, and that Weeks is not a neutral, reliable source. I reached the same conclusion from reading article, before seeing that post, and came to the Talk page to say essentially the same thing. A lot of the content attributed to Weeks is soft and gossipy, i.e. non-encyclopedic, difficult to prove or disprove from other sources, and the sort of "color" that he might have added to make his book more salable. I'm not too worried about defaming Bulger. I am more concerned that Wikipedia should not be publishing content that would better suit the National Enquirer. What do others think?—Finell 03:42, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Leaning too heavily on any one book isn't too good, of course. I own Black Mass - maybe I'll do a little work on this article with that sometime. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 04:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I would like to know if there is any more info on my brother Joey Ingemi's killing in 1982. Is his killing related to Whity Bulger or not? I read a few things that sounded like they are taking some responsiblity for his murder.I was not aware of these people at the time of his death because I was not raised with most of my family.Since Bulgers arrest I have been curious If my brother was a part of his killing spree.I want to see justice for my brothers murder and so doesn't my family. I have lost many of them since Joey died and some are not well. Please let me know if you have any info. I do not wnat to live in fear because of speaking out and wanting justice for Runts death. He was young and cocky yes I know but he did not deserve to have his life taken from him in such a horrible way. I hope this gets to the right source. Thank you .Sincerely Joey the "Runts" younger sister — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.3.58.222 (talk) 18:30, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Common-law marriage[edit]

Whitey was not in a "common law marriage" with Lindsey Cyr. She was his mistress. There was no legal status to the relationship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.184.41.226 (talk) 22:54, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Trial?[edit]

I expected to see extensive coverage of his trial which has been in the local headlines for weeks. Is this a separate article or are editors waiting for the final verdict before expanding this section? Newjerseyliz (talk) 11:47, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Can someone sort out this apparent conflict: "the jury began deliberations August 13" and "On August 12, the jury found Bulger guilty" Davidships (talk) 10:09, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Fixed. Thank you for catching it. – JBarta (talk) 12:42, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Footnote 84 link is broken[edit]

I contacted The Boston Globe and they e-mailed me the correct link today, which is: http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2011/11/20/long-unlikely-journey-cathy-greig/X7XXlhmjNYwtSQurlRmzKP/story.html

It appears that the only difference is the correct URL's exclusion of the word "the." Unfortunately, the article is behind The Globe's pay wall. Mike 16:01, 13 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MichaelAwad (talkcontribs)

Yes check.svg Fixed. In the future, you can feel free to be bold and change it yourself. — PinkAmpers&(Je vous invite à me parler) 22:32, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Massachusetts lottery false info[edit]

Currently, the article states that Bulger won the Mass. lottery off of a ticket bought in one of his liquor stores along with three friends. This is not at all what happened. A man who did not know Bulger at all won the ticket in the liquor store and was later intimidated into splitting his winnings with Bulger after the mobster paid him a personal visit. I'd think Wikipedia would show a better attention to details than that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.29.190.93 (talk) 03:13, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

That better? — PinkAmpers&(Je vous invite à me parler) 08:16, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Nickname[edit]

The article should state the origin of the nickname Whitey. Jim Michael (talk) 14:03, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Prison Location[edit]

Not overly familiar with editing Wikipedia myself, but the article needs to be updated to indicate he is now at a prison in Florida, his inmate number on the website indicates that he is no longer in Tuscon. Joe8609 15:14, 7 December 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe8609 (talkcontribs)

Done. Thank-you. – JBarta (talk) 15:31, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
United States Penitentiary, Tucson and United States Penitentiary, Coleman also need to be updated. I can't get to it at the moment, so if anyone wants to... go ahead. If not, I'll do it later. – JBarta (talk) 16:10, 7 December 2014 (UTC) Done. – JBarta (talk) 00:47, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

"Glory" days???[edit]

There's nothing "glorious" about any of this.

He was reputed to be a sexual predator who preyed on girls as young as 12, got them hooked on heroin, and then sexually exploited them for years. I don't see any mention of that in the article. Just a bunch of little girls having their lives completely ruined, who cares. But let's carefully, lovingly, document absolutely every other aspect of Whitey Bulger's criminal career, with hundreds of footnotes, because he's such an important and fascinating person for everyone to study and admire. --Rosekelleher (talk) 08:23, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Anything "reputed" needs to be backed up verifiably via reliable sources. If you want to include the pimping out of the dope-addled pre-teens, you're going to have to find those sources. Doc talk 08:35, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
I just submitted a list of sources and quotes, and there was an edit conflict with your comment, and now I can't find what I typed. I'll type it again. In the meantime, thanks so much for your extremely helpful comment. --Rosekelleher (talk) 09:05, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Sexual predator allegations[edit]

I'm not sure where in the article to fit this in, and I don't want to work on it myself because it makes me sick, but it should be mentioned. Will someone please be so kind as to take it from here.

http://business.highbeam.com/3972/article-1G1-73002338/stolen-innocence-special-report-whitey-bulger-exploited

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/boston/doc/405132627.html?FMT=FT&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Sep+4%2C+2008&author=Murphy%2C+Shelley&pub=Boston+Globe&edition=&startpage=&desc=FBI+ups+ante+for+capture+of+Whitey+Bulger

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/boston/doc/1411461011.html?FMT=FT&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jul+24%2C+2013&author=Murphy%2C+Shelley%3B+Valencia%2C+Milton+J&pub=Boston+Globe&edition=&startpage=&desc=Flemmi+paints+Bulger+as+a+pedophile

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/boston/doc/1411461315.html?FMT=FT&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jul+24%2C+2013&author=Cullen%2C+Kevin&pub=Boston+Globe&edition=&startpage=&desc=On+matters+of+sordidness+and+shame%2C+the+scorecard+is+full

--Rosekelleher (talk) 09:10, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

These are good sources. We would have to write something in the article using these sources (properly cited, of course). The only way to do this is not to wait for someone else to do it. Only you can do it, but you will always be helped in fixing anything that needs fixing. Doc talk 09:17, 20 December 2014 (UTC)