Talk:Whitney Houston

The lead

Why was information about her death removed from the lead? That is definitely lead material, per WP:LEAD. Are editors waiting for the results for how she died? Flyer22 (talk) 17:51, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

The article is written from the long view. Her death is big news now, but there is no reason to think it will be a notable part of her life. It might be though and we will have wait to see that. Currently the first sentence refers to her in the past tense and that is not likly to be interpreted any other way then she is dead. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 20:45, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

How in the hell is her death not a notable part of her life? If she had died late in life from natural causes, you'd have a point, but look at the lede sections for people like Elvis Presley, Kurt Cobain, Dee Dee Ramone, Amy Winehouse and others. 184.7.167.28 (talk) 21:04, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Excellent examples. I stand corrected. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 05:11, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree that death should be in lede, it dominated national and international news reports for three or four days. I've restored info I added a couple of days ago.Lahaun (talk) 03:00, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with restoring her death to the lead - the issue, Richard-o-E, is not that people won't interpret correctly that she died - we have the date of death in the first line - it is that she was a very public person who died at a young age. That early death is notable, and will likely always be a part of her story - probably even more so when the expected details come out of how she died. See Heath Ledger, Michael Jackson, Amy Winehouse, Clarence Clemons and sadly many, many more. I do think that we should not be speculating on the cause of death, so the sourced wording in the article as I'm writing this is appropriate. Tvoz/talk 07:52, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for restoring that portion, guys. Richard, nice to see you at this article. I don't understand your argument about not including Houston's death in the lead, though. It's not a part of her life. It's after her life, and including it in the lead is no doubt in line with WP:LEAD (per that guideline and the arguments by others above). Flyer22 (talk) 09:33, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I fix the lead a bit as we dont guess here for several days how is this possible she died 3 days ago . WP:LEAD "When a subject dies, the lead need not be radically reworked. Unless the cause of death is itself a reason for notability, a single sentence describing it is usually sufficient." Good example Adolf Hitler when the facts are available. Moxy (talk) 04:57, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be something in the lead about Houston's origins, how she emerged on the pop scene, as seen in this diff? The Michael Jackson article also does this, in the first paragraph. To only have her achievements and death in the lead doesn't tell us who Houston was before that. Adding her origins/how she debuted also follows WP:LEAD, since we do dedicate a part of this article to her early life. Flyer22 (talk) 20:02, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Not having her struggles included in the lead is another issue. But whatever is done, just make sure to keep it no longer than four paragraphs, per WP:LEAD. Flyer22 (talk) 20:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Ancestry percentages, and degree removed from direct continental African parentage

All Hallow's Wraith made an edit to the 1963–1976: Early life section suggesting that Whitney Houston's non-African ancestry was more distant than her African ancestry, and that she was mostly of African ancestry. This can't be factually stated without having her genetic DNA results for both of her parents, which is something she never participated in publicly. According the to this video interview (starting at the :54 mark) of Cissy Houston, Whitney's mother, Whitney's maternal great-grandfather, John Drinkard, Jr., was full Native American. If you go to the 1:00 mark, Cissy Houston states that her great-great-grandfather (Whitney's great-great-great-grandfather) was fully Dutch. Furthermore, Whitney Houston's maternal great-grandmother, Susan Bell Drinkard (nee Fuller), is described by Cissy Houston as being 'Dutch'. The full Dutch ancestor would have been that of Susan Bell Fuller, the great-grandmother.

Even thought her African ancestry was, aesthetically, more dominant, her non-African ancestry is more recent than her African ancestry as she would be further removed from direct African parentage via the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. Her direct European and Indigenous American parentage is more recent. Therefore, it's inaccurate to state that these ancestries are more distant than her African-slave parentage. Bab-a-lot (talk) 23:26, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually all Humanas as all mammals may origintae in Eurasia so this "American parentage is more recent" may be not exactly be true. Is this talk smoke to cover ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.90.197.87 (talk) 11:50, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean by that? Dutch people descent from Nordic Caucasians who evolved outside of Africa. The inheritance of Native American ancestry occurred on the American continent during the 1800s, not in Africa or in Asia. These ancestries were not inherited before her sub-Saharan African ancestors left the continent of Africa - prior to the 1700s. Therefore, her direct non-African ancestry is more recent. She is 3 generations removed from direct/full Native American parentage, 5 generations removed from direct/full Dutch parentage; and more than 5 generations removed from direct/full African parentage. It's an issue of hypodescent but her lineage has known admixture starting with 5 generations ago, at least, which is rather recent. Most African-Americans with lineages rooted in the American south are over 12 generations removed from direct African parentage. Therefore, her non-African ancestry is recent, namely her Native American ancestry, then her Dutch ancestry. Bab-a-lot (talk) 14:41, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

This string of entries appears totally irrelevant to the article - who but a racist would care greatly what % of african she was? She and I share 98% DNA with apes, are we going to query her species next? I moot to delete this section completely.212.139.106.204 (talk) 18:13, 20 February 2012 (UTC)twl212.139.106.204 (talk) 18:13, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Her ancestry is relevant to the article. Her genetic racial percentages can't be determined. Whether she was mostly African, Native American or Caucasian can't be determined. That's the point of this section, in particular. Someone suggested that she was mostly African-American in ancestry, but you can't determine that just by looks or by social race identity. Bab-a-lot (talk) 23:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

How is her 'ancestry' relevant to this article? Please justify this statement. The posting above does not justify its inclusion at all.212.139.106.3 (talk) 00:23, 25 February 2012 (UTC)twl212.139.106.3 (talk) 00:23, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

How is the ancestry of any notable person that has an article on Wikipedia where their ancestry is listed relevant? It's relevant because each article offers a brief summary of who these people are . Their ancestry is part of who they are, it's part of their story. And if the information can be cited from a credible source, it should be included. Bab-a-lot (talk) 12:49, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know. Something about what Cissy said, I don't believe that she has Dutch and Native American ancestry. Cissy in the video stated that her maiden name "Drinkard" was an Indian name and then mentioned that the name came from the Dutch. Which is it? Now maybe I can believe there was some Dutch ancestry but Italian? I wished the Houstons took a test so this could dispel any rumors about what other ancestry was in them besides African. Just saying. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 23:54, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd just rather lay off the 'race' thang - we've already had to delete several 'N' word posts from freaks- you cannot say 'the voice was black' without allowing other people to say 'the crack was too' - white people can sing, black people can sing, therefore no voice is a 'black attribute' - ditto crack addiction- I'd rather just say she was 'human' and leave it all there

Section news 233

The results had yet to be determined. The case is supposed to be sealed. But a leak from the dept a insider tells radaronline.com. I ask the Wiki lock the pages until the results are released. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.248.128.146 (talk) 00:32, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Aretha Franklin says that she was not Whitney Houston's Godmother

During Aretha Franklin's interview with Al Roker of NBC's the Today Show, Aretha told Al that she was not Whitney's Godmother and she doesn't know how that rumor started. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.164.87.49 (talk) 13:36, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Darlene Love is Whitney Houston's godmother. She recently spoke out on the Nancy Grace Show

Nancy Grace spoke with Whitney Houston's godmother and Rock and Roll Hall of Fame singer Darlene Love. Love remembers meeting Whitney when she was only eight-years-old. She describes Whitney as a caring, nurturing young child who always took care of others. Love begins to cry as she tells HLN's Nancy Grace how positive and full of life Whitney always was, saying, "...she was a light, that has been put out."

--Bab-a-lot (talk) 17:23, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I watched an interview by Shirley Caesar and she also mentioned being Whitney's godmother. I thought that was interesting. The Aretha thing was strictly PR. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 23:55, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Death section too large

I understand that right now there is much interest in the circumstances and consequences of her death, so I wont make an issue out of it and just leave this here to remind people to shorten the death section later on when interest has subsided. Omegastar (talk) 16:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that it's too large. It's about the size of Michael Jackson's, except smaller. But then again, we haven't even gotten to the memorial and aftermath information yet. Of course, that (the memorial information) should be there later today, but I don't see a problem with hefty sections on her death/memorial, the reaction to them, and aftermath. She's a highly notable figure, and there's a lot to state about those things. Unlike the Death of Michael Jackson and Michael Jackson memorial service articles, we do not yet have similar articles for Houston. So her Death section may be longer than Jackson's, unless we create articles about those things. Flyer22 (talk) 17:15, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the death section should get its own page, just like Michael Jackson's death has its own page. Currently Houston's death section is 5 pages long (when using the scroll button), and the news is only 2-weeks old. As time passes, and more information is given on the death, this section will only expand, basically making the page more about Whitney's death than about her life. Someone should bring one of those "polls" asking wikipedia users if they favor splitting this section into its own page. Stopde (talk) 23:28, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Er, no, it's two A4 pages long. That is not excessively long, and does not necessitate a breakout article. I think it's more likely to be trimmed than expanded. There is still too much "I miss Whitney" cruft. WWGB (talk) 00:01, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Stopde, like WWGB basically stated, we have to wait and see if information about her death will require a separate article. With Michael Jackson, there was an investigation and trial about his death. And though we have heard that there is an investigation about Houston's death, we don't know much about it...which of course means there isn't yet a lot of information out there about it. If ever. Flyer22 (talk) 00:21, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Michael Jackson's death had its page because it had turned into a homicide case. Right now that doesn't seem to be the case with Whitney's yet. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 23:57, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Bobby Brown's departure from the funeral

Should we really say that Brown was invited but left early? That is Brown's story, when it may be that he was actually banned from the funeral like reports are acknowledging may have been the case. No source is saying that he was banned, except for TMZ.com (and they don't usually count as a reliable source here at Wikipedia, despite their having been right about many, if not most, things), but I would think that we should wait to hear from both sides. See if the other side confirms or refutes that Brown was banned from the funeral before we say that he was invited. I have no problem with saying that he attended and left early, but saying that he was invited has only been his story. Flyer22 (talk) 13:50, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

"Acting white"

I think there should be criticism section about her numerous black critics who said she said she sounded too white when singing. I think this a significant part of her early career does anyone else agree.Here are some links I am thinking of using.[1][2][3] Dwanyewest (talk) 17:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I've heard that she was criticized for "selling out," "acting white," and not being "black enough," as the sources you provided show, but I never heard it stated anywhere that she sounded white/too white...until now. Information about her "selling out" and the "too white" accusations are already covered in the 1987–1991: Whitney, I'm Your Baby Tonight and "The Star Spangled Banner" section (although more about it should maybe be added there) and does not belong in the Voice section that deals with her vocal ability and the legacy it leaves behind, which is why I reverted your edit. If any criticism of her voice belongs in the Voice section, it's the material stating that (in the last couple or few years of her career) she lost her voice. Flyer22 (talk) 19:19, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Flyer22 - Teammm ^{Let's Talk! :)} 03:04, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

If your mother is black, and your father is white, I guess you just stay out of the racism and do your own non-racist thing. I personally don't feel that criticism from racist black groups is something anyone should have felt compelled to respond to. Neither did she. 212.139.106.204 (talk) 18:07, 20 February 2012 (UTC)twl212.139.106.204 (talk) 18:07, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

IP, you're categorizing Houston's father as white? While I know of her Native American and Dutch descent, I've never heard/seen it reported before that her father was white. Flyer22 (talk) 00:56, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I've never known of him as being white. However, I've come across claims online, over the years, that he was half white. If there's anything to cite, IMO, it would likely be in old publications from the 80s when, it seems, there was media coverage that positively highlighted the relationship he had with his daughter. It's a shame that people thought she was 'acting white'. I think this was around the time Michael Jackson was getting a lot of backlash from the black community over his 'new appearance'. I guess, people were noticing how certain crossover artist (cross over from being just known within the black community, to being known among other demographics) appealed to whites, not just in musical style, but in perceived looks as well. Whitney Houston was very thin, and many blacks, during that time, associated the body type with whiteness. She spoke proper English which was something blacks associated with being white, more so back then than now. She also had a very clean cut image. Her lyrical content lacked corruption, the blues element, struggle, misery, lust, vanity, conflict, human error etc... IMO, themes many blacks, prior to that time, were accustomed to hearing in music genres targeting them. She was just too clean cut in image for many people, and the type of public image she had was stereotypical of a white person. Bab-a-lot (talk) 17:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think as black people, we've been scrutinized and abused and mistreated for centuries that when someone like Whitney emerges, we think because of her manner from back then and her looks that she was trying to "not be black". When The Cosby Show aired, some blacks didn't appreciate it because "that show was not the reality of black people" as if they were the judge on what black really looks like. To me Whitney Houston in her heyday was a proud example of someone who was black and was also dignified. It's sad that people took it as if to think she didn't wanna be associated as such. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 00:00, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Funeral

Rev Marvin Winans Sr. performed the eulogy. The eulogy is central to the service and should be noted in the text. Additionally, it is notable that the Mayor of Newark and Governor of NJ attended the service; and the Governor had the flags flown at half mast despite the public backlash that the honor should be reserved for fallen military heros. Missing from the list of performers are R. Kelly, Kim Burrell, and Donnie McClurkin. Missing speakers include Tyler Perry, and Bishop TD Jakes. Are estimates for worlwide viewership available? Thank youDcwikiwonder (talk) 08:44, 20 February 2012 (UTC)DCwikiwonder

Did news of her death really "dominate" national and international media?

Might be a little pedantic but whilst news of her death featured in the UK and Spanish media that I follow, it did not (in my opinion) dominate. Can we have an accurate description. Either narrow it down to dominate celebrity news or change dominate to feature prominently. Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.248.83 (talk) 19:37, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, the line did specify by saying "the day before the 2012 Grammy Awards." I added "and after" and used your suggested wording "featured prominently."[4] Flyer22 (talk) 01:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Houston's reported death was headline news for days on most, if not all, major media channels. Dominate is a fitting word. 72.224.189.211 (talk) 14:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Artistry and legacy

The Artistry and legacy section is full of fluff - is a quote farm and basically full of useless material. How can we fix this badly bloated section that has many bad refs- any recommendations of what we can cut? This article is about Whitney Houston not what others have to say or have done because of her.Moxy (talk) 05:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Even though I criticized Crowded for adding too much to this section (aka making it crowded, LOL), as seen here and here, I don't see a lot of fluff, Moxy. When it comes to a section about an artist's artistry and legacy, it's always going to be mostly about what others have to say and have done because of that artist. And in that respect, Houston's section is not much different than GA or FA articles such as Michael Jackson, Madonna, Mariah Carey, Lady Gaga, and so on. Although Houston's section could probably use a little tightening, I wouldn't suggest any drastic cuts. Flyer22 (talk) 17:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Michael Jackson, Madonna, Mariah Carey, Lady Gaga, and so on are all full of useless stuff. Only in the music bios do we have such BS stuff (for some odd reason in music we always do this). Need to bring up music bios to the same level as the others here on wiki. Have this much info about others is considered undue weight. See Adolf Hitler for what we are looking for from our good bios. Who cares that so and so likes her music... Would we write that her music influenced suicide - so why do we care about what lesser artists have to think? I have just read the Mariah Carey article and this is a bad one ..full of grandiose statements - the article is clearly written by a fanMoxy (talk) 18:40, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Moxy, all I'm saying is that this type of thing is a common aspect of GA and FA musical biographies on Wikipedia. And these type of articles are clearly different than articles like Adolf Hitler. But just as it matters what others say about Adolf Hilter (historical commentary), it matters what others say about musical artists (critical and/or peer commentary). You can't talk about a person's influence if you aren't reporting what others have stated about that person -- their influence. The same goes for Adolf Hilter. Unlike the Adolf Hitler article, however, musical biographies are often like film articles because they are going to include critical commentary on musical performances, artistry, influence and legacy. All of that is required for a good or featured Wikipedia article about a musical artist, and especially if the article expects to reach GA or FA status. I'm not saying that some of these articles don't need tigtening (aka copyediting and cuts). After all, I mentioned that Houston's Artistry and legacy section could probably use some tightening. What I'm saying is that this material should not be drastically downsized. For example, I definitely understand your objection to listing a bunch of artists in WP:LINKFARM-style just to make a point about Houston having influenced a lot of artists. A simple "She influenced various musical artists" with maybe two examples would suffice. The thing is...when you list one or two examples, then people want to list more, and that is what happened to form that link-farm paragragph in Houston's Influence section. If it's not obvious already, that is one paragraph I don't mind being downsized. Flyer22 (talk) 22:23, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

A heart is not judged by how much you love; but by how much you are loved by others. - The Wizard of Oz (1939 film) (wasn't in the book) Richard-of-Earth (talk) 06:58, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Whitney Makes History on the BBC Charts- Week Ending 2/18/2012

According to the BBC Charts out of England for the weekending 2/18/2012... Ms. Houston has set a new record for having the most Top 40 singles by an a female artist. She has landed twelve record placing songs. @ 36- "Didn't We Almost Have It All" @ 31- Where Do Broken Hearts Go @ 30- Run To You @ 27- It's Not Right But It's Okay @ 26-- Million Dollar Baby @ 25- Greatest Love of All @ 24- Saving All My Love For You @ 23- How Will I Know @19- I Have Nothing @15-One Moment In Time @ 8-I Wanna Dance With Somebody ( Who Loves Me) @ 6 -I Will Always Love You

It should be noted that her accomplishment surpasses the late Miss Amy Whinehouse's contribution on seven singles in one week. No other female artist has accomplished a feet of this nature and should be included within here list of accomplishments. (71.12.77.180 (talk) 20:53, 21 February 2012 (UTC)) (71.12.77.180 (talk) 21:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC))

Super Bowl Tracksuit Whitney Houston

Mr. Como on 20/20 did a brilliant story on WHitney. To match the song he said that the track suit she wore was also outstanding. The suit was a brand called Jamie Sadock. A famous resort designer. The suit was part of a collection called" Proud to be American" The story goes that Sissy Houston bought the suit at a Fisher Island store. The suit was a men's suit but Whitney loved. The concept was created by Peter Mahmet and designed by Jamie Sadock. peter@wicked-footwear.com, Jamiesadock.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pmahmet (talk • contribs) 23:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 22 February 2012

Whitney Houston was prounouced dead at 3:55pm PST per the LA Coroner (not 4:00pm as you have stated.) Please correct. Keep the facts correct. It is too easy to get off track and report inaccurate info, and then it becomes fact. Keep facts correct. Thank you. Melinhart (talk) 00:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)melinhart

Melinhart (talk) 00:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Celestra (talk) 03:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the source we cited says 'around 4 p.m.' and in response to the same issue being raised hereWikipedia:Help_desk#whitney_houston I've revised our article accordingly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:08, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

ABC News has it at 3:55pm PST and has a video of a police lieutenant announcing it as such here. I'll update the article. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 06:41, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Please correct: 23 Feb 2012 Edit request

Where it says "black figures who died in 2011 including Houston, was followed by" (in the part about her death) it should read: "black figures who died in 2011 included Houston, and was followed by"

She obviously did not die in 2011; her early 2012 passing did not mean she should not be included.

ALSO.. perhaps make mention of her age and the timing of her passing: 49 and a half (and 2 days). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.86.226.19 (talk) 06:58, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

She was 48 and a half (and 2 days), but we just say she was 48. I changed the wording to "with Houston". Richard-of-Earth (talk) 07:32, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Why is the word 'black ' included at all? 'Singers who died' would be fine - she was really not noted for her colour, just her voice.

Star-Spangled Banner

I was wondering if adding that her Super Bowl Performance was lip synced would be objectionable to anyone? That and adding that she changed the time signature of the piece. The second part has always been a complaint about her performance among marching bands in my experience though isn't as notable. Ayzmo (talk) 15:04, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

File:Whitney Houston Barbie I Wanna Dance 1.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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