Talk:Wikipedia

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Possible discussion of four days of editing by User:Chealer[edit]

There have been seemingly over 100 edits by User:Chealer over the last few days and does anyone know if they are a response to some special project at Wikipedia. Having gone through over 70% of them, they seem difficult to readily summarize. Much of it seems to want to anchor citation templates into the text in many places. At one point, User:Chealer appeared to want a citation template to explain what BraketBot does. Since User:Chealer is an experienced editor, this question of providing some reason for all the edits might be clarified by anyone who knows. For example, do we really need to discuss in this article what WP:Lede contains, or what WP:Bot policy contains? LawrencePrincipe (talk) 02:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

User:Tiptoe has indicated that consensus should be formed on this Talk page concerning whether the Lead section should include material which is not covered in the main body of the article. WP:Lede appears to state plainly that only material developed in the main body of the article may be used in the Lead section. As stated on the policy page: "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article...". User:Chealer has disagreed with this. User:Chealer's addition of the discussion of "common nouns" and "proper nouns" in the current version of the Lead section does not appear in the main body of the article. Is there a general interpretation of this rule which should apply to maintaining the "Wikipedia" page? LawrencePrincipe (talk) 18:46, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
As previously indicated, WP:Lede is not a policy, but where would I have disagreed with the statement you quoted? --Chealer (talk) 00:47, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Both MOS and WP:Lede indicate that only material which is developed in the main body of the article can be summarized in the Lead section. Your material on "Common nouns" and "proper nouns" as you have introduced it into the Lead section remains undeveloped in the main body of the article. I have asked above for other editors to comment here on both this MOS issue and WP:Lede which indicates clearly that your material does not appear to belong in the Lead section because it is undeveloped in the main body of the article.
Similarly, your discussion of the linguistics of English Wikipedia being "a wiki...," in the Lead paragraph, is also not discussed in the main body of the article. It appears to be a bold edit representing your personal concerns. You also have not spoken about the source of the nearly 100 edits you have done on this page for Wikipedia over that last few days (with almost no Talk interaction) to describe the reason for these multiple citation requests being reverted into the text over and over again; especially your repeat requests for an explanation of how bracket bot works. Your report to User:Tiptoety appears to have left much of this material out. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 02:31, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
The definition isn't a summary. You asking whoever about whatever is not an indication that any material does not appear to belong in the Lead section. I fail to see what "discussion of the linguistics of English Wikipedia being "a wiki...,"" you allude to. Same for my so-called "repeat requests for an explanation of how bracket bot works". --Chealer (talk) 06:35, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry but that fails to answer my question. --Chealer (talk) 06:35, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Your material (User:Chealer) about "Proper nouns" and "Common nouns" appears in the second paragraph of the Lead section. According to Wikipedia Policy for WP:Lede it states: "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article...". Your material on "nouns" is not covered in the main body of the article and is therefore subject to deletion by any editor at Wikipedia because of the policy covered in WP:Lede. WP:Lede should be followed. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 19:50, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry to repeat myself, but as previously indicated, WP:Lede is not a policy.
And that still doesn't answer my question. --Chealer (talk) 20:05, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
The edit history log clearly shows that you were/are re-inserting a template citation asking for explanation about how BraketBot works, and you appear to be adding numerous other citation templates throughout the article without representing your concerns on Talk. Wikipedia Policy for WP:Lede is clearly stated and you can link to it directly with the link I have just provided. If you are involved is dissent towards WP:Lede then I suggest that this is not the place for you to take up your grievance by posting multiple citation templates throughout this article as if that is your way of working out your grievances. Here is the link, WP:Lede, and you can read it the same as any other editor at Wikipedia. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 14:31, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Where would the history clearly show that?
There is no need to tell me what you think I need to read until you have read and answered the question you were supposed to be answering. --Chealer (talk) 02:47, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
You have had three days to establish consensus for your changes to the Lead. WP:Lede requires that material in the Lead be supported by text in the main body of the article. You need to establish consensus for your edits here on Talk prior to further edits. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 05:28, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry to repeat myself, but WP:Lede does not require that.
You didn't answer any of my questions. --Chealer (talk) 12:38, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
See discussion and answer in new section below. Please stop edit warring. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 15:49, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks anyway, but I already read the sections below, and you addressed neither my original question, nor the second one. --Chealer (talk) 01:29, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
@User:Chealer, Once again, WP:Lede requires that only material developed in the main body of the article may be placed in the Lead section. Your material on "common nouns" and "proper nouns" is not in the main body of the article and therefore it is against Wikipedia policy WP:Lede to put it in the Lead section. This is one of the 100 edits you are being asked to account for in the above section opened for your explanation of your numerous edits. Please stop your personal attacks. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 14:05, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
I was asked on my talk page to get further involved, but I feel it best that I do not. Bearian (talk)

History of possible relation between User:Chealer and User:Pundit[edit]

Approximately three weeks ago, a new book on Wikipedia appeared in the mainstream press written by User:Pundit who is an administrator at Wikipedia, along with his article for Slate[2] currently cited in the last sentence of the Lead section here. User:Chealer appeared to be displeased with these edits, and this appears to be the event which started his/her long course of over 100 edits here in the last few days. Is anyone aware of a possible history between these two editors to help explain the otherwise unexplained editing by User:Chealer. Both Chealer and Pundit have been at Wikipedia for several years and perhaps someone who has been here long enough may have some information about them. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 02:44, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't recall ever interacting with this user (and I've been alerted to the issue by LawrencePrincipe at my talk page). Pundit|utter 16:13, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Duplicated bot coverage on Wikipedia[edit]

You added a sentence covering a bot's usage to Wikipedia. As this topic was covered, I reverted your edit. You reverted that revert commenting "Duplication not identified. This is a new reference from the WSJ previously unmentioned in this section.". Your so-called "new reference" is in the same subsection as our existing instance of that same reference (about 5 lines above), which follows our existing coverage, so I am re-reverting your addition.

Should you fail to understand edit summaries in the future, ask before undoing. --Chealer (talk) 07:02, 3 August 2014 (UTC) (repost of Chealer material about Wikipedia page on Wikipedia Talk page.)

The current narrative of the Seigenthaler incident is not in chronological sequence and does not give Wikipedia the due note for strengthening BLP policy after the incident ran its course. The final sentence of the section should read: "In response to the Seigenthaler incident, Wikipedia strengthened its policies concerning the Biographies of Living Persons." You appear to object to adding this to the end of the section on Seigenthaler. The other reference you make to the WSJ reference is out of time sequence and belongs at the end of the section on Seigenthaler. Please note that you are not supposed to "re-revert" something (your word) under BRD policy as you have just done, but you are normally expected to discuss it first to reach consensus before posting the consensus version once it is established. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 13:06, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Again, there is no such thing as a "BRD policy".
You are confusing 2 sections, this discussion is about the coverage of bot usage which you duplicated. --Chealer (talk) 17:12, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
This section was created by LawrencePrincipe, by copying a section I created on his talk page. --Chealer (talk) 17:12, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Please keep your comments (User:Chealer) about the Wikipedia page here in one place so that all editors can see what you are doing. At present you have stated that (1) you do not know the Wikipedia Policy for WP:Lede, and you have just stated above that (2) you are unfamiliar with the Wikipedia Policy for WP:BRD. Previously, you were telling us that (3) you were claiming not to know how BracketBot works in the section dealing with automation on this Wikipedia page and were using citation templates asking for clarification on how BracketBot works. Can you clarify any of this? If you are unable to respond to the Seigenthaler material above, or any of these 3 items, then they can be edited/corrected by any editor at Wikipedia if you are not discussing them on the Talk page here. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 18:49, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
If you want to change the subject, you will have to do that alone. Things are already as confusing as they stand, and I am not going to discuss anything other than this section's topic here. --Chealer (talk) 20:02, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
You are expected by Wikipedia policy to participate in Talk concerning your edits. If you fail to participate in Talk concerning your edits then under normal policy they may be reverted by any editor at Wikipedia editing in good faith. There does not appear to be anyone supporting your new discussion of "proper nouns" and "common nouns" in the Lead section. The material is also not supported by anything in the main body of the article which is required by Wikipedia policy for WP:Lede, and it may be deleted by any editor at Wikipedia if you are unable to defend your edit. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 14:21, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but you are hard enough to follow already, I am not going to encourage you to stay off-topic. This section is about one of your edits, you'll stay alone if you want to turn the topic to mine. --Chealer (talk) 02:43, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
You have had three days to establish consensus for your changes to the Lead. WP:Lede requires that material in the Lead be supported by text in the main body of the article. You need to establish consensus here on Talk prior to making further edits. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 05:26, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
You may repeat what you have claimed above. Unfortunately, you may not make it true, nor relevant to this section. --Chealer (talk) 12:39, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── BRD is an essay while WP:LEAD is a guideline, being part of the MoS. Lawrence were mistaken on the article status. However, Chealer, you need to look at WP:Keeping cool when the editing gets hot, and it is fact that you don't have the WP:Consensus to make your edit. P.S. In WP:LEAD it is stated that anything in the lead has to be mentioned in the context below, and it should not be over-detailed. I've met too many editors who think their memory on policies and guidelines serves, so perhaps you guys can quote the statements you are refering to. Good day.Forbidden User (talk) 15:36, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Forbidden User, and thanks for your comment. As stated on the page for WP:Lede here is the quote: "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article...". User:Chealer has disagreed with this. Please see further discussion below regarding edit warring by User:Chealer. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 15:53, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi @Forbidden User,
I always try to stay "cool", so I'd certainly appreciate any concrete suggestions you'd have if you think I could have reacted better here.
As for the edit having no consensus, we don't normally expect "consensus" to revert a change, but you're free to re-apply the change if you think this repetition adds value to the article. --Chealer (talk) 01:27, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
You appear not to accept that WP:BRD is for your benefit, and that discussion allows you to discuss edits rather than to re-apply your own version of your own changes repetitively without Talk. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 00:47, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean, but if you think I can act differently in a specific case, you're welcome to point that out. Unless that's related to bot coverage duplication though, please do that outside this discussion. --Chealer (talk) 16:52, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia seeks consensus not truth[edit]

User:Michael0156, this may interest you. I got reverted for no specific policy reason. QuackGuru (talk) 03:26, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Judging from the reply, he should be quoting WP:POINT and WP:IINFO. By the way, it's a good idea to have a talk page.Forbidden User (talk) 15:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
You haven't given a valid reason for deleting information about Wikipedia' most notable policy. Wikipedia runs on WP:CON or is it the loudest voices? This is a violation of WP:SUMMARY to delete it anyhow. QuackGuru (talk) 03:44, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Do I need to gain WP:Con to add information about WP:Con?[3] I am still waiting for a rationale reason not to include information about Wikipedia's consensus. There is no Wikipedia policy more known than consensus. QuackGuru (talk) 17:22, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Persistent edit warring and dissent against BRD policy by User:Chealer discussion[edit]

Recently an issue of content dispute and edit warring has become apparent. User:Chealer is apparently edit warring against a new book by User:Pundit (an administrator) who has written a 2014 published book about Wikipedia whose contents are disputed by User:Chealer. However, User:Pundit has asserted that COI does not allow him to ethically intervene. Requesting 10-14 day "Admin only" page protection in order to start BRD and/or RFC to determine if User:Chealer's edits over the last 3-4 days should be reverted for bias and edit warring.

User:Chealer appears to believe that his/her dissent against Wikipedia BRD policy is an excuse for allowing User:Chealer to ignore Wikipedia BRD policy (Chealer's dissent quotes are in the two previous sections directly above). Any Wikipedia editor is required to make consensus on Talk page prior to posting a consensus edit when requested to following BRD policy. During the last 3 days User:Chealer has established no consensus for his/her edits to the Lede section which were reverted according to BRD policy. Any Wikipedia editor is required to establish consensus first, according to BRD, and prior to re-posting edits in the Lead section. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 15:46, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

He means WP:EDITCONSENSUS (section in WP:Consensus), not only WP:BRD.Forbidden User (talk) 16:24, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Also WP:UNRESPONSIVE and WP:CAUTIOUS.Forbidden User (talk) 16:28, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Still no answer from Chealer on WP:UNRESPONSIVE and WP:CAUTIOUS, WP:EDITCONSENSUS (section in WP:Consensus), not only WP:BRD. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 00:39, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Removal of/from definitions (lead)[edit]

Apologies to other editors, User:LawrencePrincipe has asked me to discuss his editing of this article here.
@LawrencePrincipe: Edit warring is not just violating the 3RR. It is also persistently trying to push through a change without discussion and without support. You need to explain why you are removing all of this.
I am reverting your removals from the lead for the last time; should you push this again without a proper justification, I will report you again for continued edit warring, even if your edit does not violate the 3RR, and rest assured the report will mention how you escaped the previous report. --Chealer (talk) 01:46, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Umm... edit-revert-discussion cycle is included in WP:EDITCONSENSUS, so if someone revert your edit then it's more desirable to talk at the talk page instead of reverting again. By the way, you may add your information in Criticism of Wikipedia. One or two sentences could be appropriate at the criticism section. However, it's only my opinion, you two may request for comments or seek third opinion at DR.Forbidden User (talk) 11:40, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
@Forbidden User: I'm afraid there's confusion here. He's not trying to add any information, or dealing with any criticism. He's simply trying to remove the second definition and the second sentence from the original definition. --Chealer (talk) 21:47, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Admin Eustress has provided you with a window of 7 days to provide an explanation of the 100 edits you have made in your edit warring with the contents of the book of User:Pundit referred to above. You appear to have ignored the section opened for you directly above this one. Your making threats to Users that you intend to file negative admin reports appears to miss the point that multiple editors do not know what you are doing with your unsolicited and unexplained large block of 100 edits. Please stop your personal attacks and explain your edit warring (multiple edit reverts, multiple template reverts...) over the last few days and weeks dating back to July 7 (when you started your edit warring with material related to User:Pundit's new book), in the section provided for you above. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 02:11, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
I do not know what you're talking about, but I do know you're going off-topic again. If you have justification for your removals, you are welcome to add them here. If not, please find a section where your comments are relevant, and start one if none exists. --Chealer (talk) 13:32, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
When you are approached by Admin to explain your understanding of WP:BRD and WP:Lede, then you immediately recognize everything being discussed (see section with User:Eustress directly below). However, whenever any regular editor on this Talk page have asked you about WP:BRD or WP:Lede, then you immediately state, "I do not know what you're talking about...", as you have just done in your statement here. Clarify which one it is, either you do understand WP:BRD and WP:Lede, or, you do not understand them? LawrencePrincipe (talk) 00:36, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
I meant I don't know what you're talking about when you refer to "your edit warring with the contents of the book of User:Pundit referred to above", to "the section provided for you above", or to "your personal attacks", for example. In any case, this section not about my understanding of essays. If you can justify your removals, this is the place; if not, please find an appropriate place to discuss your concerns. --Chealer (talk) 04:34, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
@User:Chealer, Once again, WP:Lede requires that only material developed in the main body of the article may be placed in the Lead section. Your material on "common nouns" and "proper nouns" is not in the main body of the article and therefore it is against Wikipedia policy WP:Lede to put it in the Lead section. This is one of the 100 edits you are being asked to account for in the above section opened for your explanation of your numerous edits. Please stop your personal attacks. In your personal attacks you have stated your belief in "bad faith" and your assessment of others as "someone who willfully ignores what he's been told" on 6 August to User:Eustress published in the section below and on your Talk page. Your personal attacks must stop, and several editors have now asked you to respond to your dissent against WP:Lede and your dissent against participation in BRD discussions.@Forbidden User:@Chris troutman: LawrencePrincipe (talk) 14:05, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
This is not my edit, this is your edit. As you were told multiple times before:
  • Stick to the topic.
  • WP:Lede is not a policy.
  • WP:Lede does not "require" such a thing anyway. --Chealer (talk) 18:49, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Perhaps you could explain why you think the critism you added to the lead is more prominent than others that it has the WP:Due weight to go on the lead. After dealing with your disputed edit, proceed to his. We need to treat one dispute at a time.Forbidden User (talk) 19:06, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I should clarify WP:LEAD somehow: Apart from trivial basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article.; it is really not a policy but a guideline.Forbidden User (talk) 19:13, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

We do not need to "treat" a single dispute at a time. What we do need is to handle disputes intelligently, not all together. I do not know what "critism" you are referring to, but if you want to discuss it, please do that in a different section. --Chealer (talk) 20:22, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Reposting dialogue concerning personal attacks related to this page in order to keep everything in one place[edit]

Hello. I appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia -- I know how much effort goes into improving the encyclopedia. Based on some of your recent edits and exchanges with other editors concerning the Wikipedia article I came across while serving at WP:RFPP, I'd like to encourage you to review Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines and to utilize the resources there to address any questions or suggestions you have. Ignoring guidelines and essays just because they are not "policies" is unproductive and disruptive. —Eustress 02:04, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Hello @Eustress,
I must confess I'm far from knowing all policies and guidelines by heart, but I'm not exactly a newcomer here, so I'm not quite ignorant about them neither :-P
I assume your nudge mainly comes from some replies I made to LawrencePrincipe about WP:BRD and WP:Lede. I understand your intervention, but I did not ignore guidelines and essays just because they are not policies. I did not know LawrencePrincipe before getting involved in Wikipedia and originally considered him confused but in good faith, so I did point out both that what he called policies were not policies, and that the essays or guidelines he invoked would not have excused his actions even if they had actually been policies. However, with his latest 3RR violation and its aftermath, it has become clear that LawrencePrincipe is in bad faith, so lately, I have chosen to spend less time trying to teach him. He has now portrayed non-policies as policies at least 10 times just in edits related to Wikipedia, even though I rectified him multiple times, so if he remains merely confused on some things, mere confusion no longer suffices to explain his behavior. I now simply prove him wrong with the shortest route. That may indeed not be really productive, but it's certainly more productive than spending more time arguing with someone who willfully ignores what he's been told :-(
--Chealer (talk) 03:01, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply, I can understand your frustration. Given the circumstances, might be wise to more fully explain your edit rationales and be less hasty to revert. On the surface your conduct appears to have been somewhat disruptive, which based on your response above is not your intention. Cheers —Eustress 17:23, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. I did a lot of changes to Wikipedia recently, and there's no doubt I could have spent more time explaining some. While I unfortunately cannot retroactively change my edit summaries, I can always elaborate on a change on request.
As for the hastiness to revert, I'm not sure what you mean. --Chealer (talk) 21:57, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
@Eustress: After looking at the history again, I realize you may have been misled by what LawrencePrincipe wrote in edit summaries and on Talk:Wikipedia. After Lawrence claimed I had disagreed with part of WP:Lede, I asked him where. He then changed the subject and I pointed out he hadn't answered the question. He tried to change the subject 4 more times. So far, he did not reply to my fifth reminder of his failure to answer, which might be considered a passive admission that he was lying.
I recommend to verify anything he states about those he disagrees with. --Chealer (talk) 21:57, 6 August 2014 (UTC) (reposted to keep everything related on one Page)
Hello User:Eustress, Thank you for starting the discussion, and this is the answer I have provided User:Chealer several times. @User:Chealer, Once again, WP:Lede requires that only material developed in the main body of the article may be placed in the Lead section. Your material on "common nouns" and "proper nouns" is not in the main body of the article and therefore it is against Wikipedia policy WP:Lede to put it in the Lead section. This is one of the 100 edits you are being asked to account for in the above section opened for your explanation of your numerous edits. Please stop your personal attacks. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 02:28, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Would be best to simply narrow down the edits you have concerns with. In no way does any editor have to explain ever edit to anyone (Wikipedia:Ownership of articles and WP:Bold). So what can be done to move forward - first what are the contested edits all 100? About the lead.. why not move the info to the main body of the article over full deletion...is there more to the problem then just insertions in the lead? -- Moxy (talk) 05:03, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Third party:Those details look better suited in Criticism of Wikipedia. A passing mention in the relevant section can be considered.Forbidden User (talk) 07:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
To both editors. @User:Forbidden User, During the content dispute and edit warring by User:Chealer against User:Pudit's new book, one type of edit warring used by User:Chealer has been to offset User:Pundit's material to child articles such as the Criticism page without discussion. (1) When I inquired about this on Talk:Chealer (on or about July 6), h/she seemed to make somewhat dismissive one-line answers which you can review there. This was before the 100 edit sequence of edit warring against the content of User:Pundit's new book which User:Chealer then undertook without any further Talk page discussion despite requests for Talk discussion. (2) Regarding the comment about singling out just one of the 100 edit sequence of edit warring by User:Chealer against the book by User:Pundit, there is the closing sentence of the current lead section as currently protected by User:Eustress which gives a url for User:Pundit's writings and which User:Chealer has reverted more than 3 times alone. User:Chealer may be contacted to clarify the reason for the high number of reverts to this one sentence at the end of the Lead section for an answer since User:Chealer has provided no Talk page discussion despite many requests to explain it on Talk. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 00:32, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

RFC: Extension of Page protection for Wikipedia page due to content dispute and edit warring by User:Chealer (expires August 13)[edit]

RfC was opened by LawrencePrincipe, a user involved in content dispute with Chealer. Framed as WP:RPP but is overwhelmingly about Chealer's behavior making it an improper WP:RFCC. Inappropriate use of RFC to air complaints about user. Resolve dispute on your own (as is happening above on talk page with admin's mediation. If edit warring by either party continues after page protection expires, individual users should be dealt with as edit warriors. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:13, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recently an issue of content dispute and edit warring has become apparent. User:Chealer is apparently edit warring against a new book by User:Pundit (an administrator) who has written a 2014 published book about Wikipedia whose contents are disputed by User:Chealer. However, User:Pundit has asserted that COI does not allow him to ethically intervene. "Admin only" page protection expires in 5 days and this RFC is to determine if User:Chealer's edit warring over the last month (documented in hatted section below) should be reverted for bias and edit warring, and the Page protection extended into the future.

User:Chealer appears to believe that his/her dissent against Wikipedia BRD policy is an excuse for allowing User:Chealer to ignore Wikipedia BRD policy (Chealer's dissent quotes are in the two previous sections directly above). Any Wikipedia editor is required to make consensus on Talk page prior to posting a consensus edit when requested to following BRD policy. During the last 3 days User:Chealer has established no consensus for his/her edits to the Lede section which were reverted according to BRD policy. Any Wikipedia editor is required to establish consensus first, according to BRD, and prior to re-posting edits in the Lead section. User:Chealer has resorted to making threats to file Admin reports against users opposed to h/her edits and expressing anger against Admin Tiptoety for not following h/her instructions. User:Chealer has not withdrawn h/her dissent against following WP:BRD policy, and resorted to multiple personal attacks in the sections above this RFC.

Persistent edit warring and dissent against BRD policy by User:Chealer has resulted in this RFC to determine if "Admin only" page protection for the Wikipedia page should be supported and extended for a period of 30-, 60- or 90-days; or, if consideration should be given to protecting the page from edits by User:Chealer who has been involved in persistent content dispute and edit warring against contents from a new book about Wikipedia by User:Pundit, for a protection period of 30-, 60-, or 90-days. User:Pundit is unable to defend the content of his new book due to COI which does not allow him to ethically intervene.

Please indicate your SUPPORT or OPPOSE based on the three options for Page protection and indicate the level of protection you are SUPPORTING or OPPOSING (for example "SUPPORT for 90 days Admin only page protection", or, "SUPPORT for 90 days page protection limiting User:Chealer edit warring", or, "OPPOSE further page protection for any time period.")

Support page protection for Admin only access for xxx days. (sample) LawrencePrincipe (talk) 01:48, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Support page protection (topic ban) limiting User:Chealer for xxx days. (sample) LawrencePrincipe (talk) 01:48, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Oppose indicating no further Admin only page protection. (sample) LawrencePrincipe (talk) 01:48, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

All editors please make note that current page protection expires in 5 days, next Tuesday, on or about August 13. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 01:48, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

  • Support full protection for 14 days, so that there is enough time for both sides to resolve the dspute.Forbidden User (talk) 15:08, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support full protection for up to 90 days. There has to be a better way to resolve this content dispute. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:44, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support full protection for up to 90 days. Five or six editors have now tried to initiate discussion with User:Chealer but were refused due to User:Chealer's dissent against BRD and h/her hold out against participating in discussion. Since all editors taking part in this discussion, except for Chealer, believe that constructive BRD discussion by Chealer is needed in order to compensate for User:Chealer's content disputes in this article, it is for Chealer to move closer to the consensus. In the absence of Chealer moving closer to consensus, the full protection should be extended. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 00:26, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Why aren't you seeking a topic ban at AN/I??? That would be the common way to deal with disruptive editing about one specific page. Present a set of diffs there, including the disruption and various warnings to Chealer to knock it off... Locking things down to everybody isn't the way to do this. Carrite (talk) 16:36, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose any full page protection in the absence of more solid evidence of edit-warring that cannot be addressed by ordinary means. A case has not been made that I can see that full page protection was necessary in the first place. As User:Carrite says, if one user is being disruptive, a topic ban is in order. A book is mentioned, but there is apparently no article about the book. I don't even see what the issue is. A
Rainbow trout transparent.png Whack!

You've been whacked with a wet trout.

Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know you did something silly.
to User:LawrencePrincipe for the extreme idea of 90 days full protection. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:49, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support page protection, though I'm not sure it should Admin only. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 19:05, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Protected edit request on 8 August 2014[edit]

I am good at Wikipedia Ukle Defker (talk) 17:00, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 17:09, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Known bias of wikipedia. Discuss. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Insane hussein (talkcontribs) 11:23, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Script Error[edit]

There are several Script Errors that I noticed today in this article, whatever they are. Shocking Blue (talk) 12:21, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

@Shocking Blue: If you mean JavaScript errors, the problem is not in the article. The errors may be caused by a MediaWiki bug, but the errors will be necessary to determine. --Chealer (talk) 00:27, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
I saw the same issue on the Naruto article as well. In that case the script errors prevented all but one reference from working, and prevented the displaying of the infobox or any of the templates. That issue seemed to fix itself so hopefully It's bern resolved.--67.68.22.129 (talk) 05:26, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

GAR[edit]

Wikipedia[edit]

Article (edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · WatchWatch article reassessment page • GAN review not found
Result pending

This article has seen a substantial amount of edit warring recently, and the talk page is full of disputes. The infobox as I see it now has several {{fact}} and {{verification failed}} tags. This doesn't look like a GA. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:57, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

The disputes would eventually settle; the tag bombs are by a single user, which is part of the edit-warring.Forbidden User (talk) 11:21, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
I count at least five people with edits I would describe as "major reverts" - [4], [5], [6], [7], [8]. Even disregarding that, I can see several unsourced claims (eg: "They [rules on non-English Wikipedia] have since diverged to some extent", "However, some vandalism takes much longer to repair", "the number of references to Wikipedia in popular culture is such that the word is one of a select band of 21st-century nouns that are so familiar (Google, Facebook, YouTube) that they no longer need explanation and are on a par with such 20th-century words as hoovering or Coca-Cola"), "Hardware operations and support" has an "outdated" tag, the paragraph describing h2g2 is unsourced, and there are several other {{fact}} tags in the text. It might have met the GA criteria in 2006, but I don't think it does anymore without some substantial work. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:34, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Ritchie333. The article has too many unsourced claims and other issues to continue with GA status. Folklore1 (talk) 01:26, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

  • Agree- I have counted nine claims with CN templates, along with some others including clarify and not in citation given templates. In addition, there are a lot more unsourced/ unverified claims than that. Also, the Hardware operations and support section is outdated.Qxukhgiels (talk) 21:52, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Community[edit]

The Community section of this article has a lot of commented-out text, visible only during edit mode. It doesn't look like something that actually belongs in the article. Is there some reason why this material had not been deleted? Folklore1 (talk) 01:33, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I supposed the editors who disabled the content were hesitant or thought the content could be salvaged. In any case, the only interesting recyclable part I noticed must already be covered much better in History of Wikipedia. I thought there would be more, but I removed the few sentences I saw. --Chealer (talk) 03:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia seeks consensus but not the truth[edit]

See diff that shows if you are loud enough you can delete text about the most notable policy on Wikipedia for no good reason. Is this the truth?

The skeptics thing seems not notable. User:TheRedPenOfDoom deleted this information from the Criticism article. See Wikipedia#Systemic bias. QuackGuru (talk) 21:08, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Oh my, that is neither a policy nor a guideline. Talk in the talk page of the article concerned. WP:FORUMSHOPPING is strictly prohibited. You are quite far from it, but prolonged behaviour alike may constitute WP:Edit warring.Forbidden User (talk) 11:56, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
By the way, WP:IINFO says that we are not going to include everything verifiable. Please click into those policies and guidelines' links for more information. I personally hate shortcuts being written in capital letters (like WP:WTF) which sounds really like shouting. However, we have to adapt and understand that it is not shouting.Forbidden User (talk) 11:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Consensus is the most notable policy. QuackGuru is arguing with QuackGuru at this point. This is not about WP:IINFO. This is about WP:Con. QuackGuru (talk) 17:25, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Ok, I know from the beginning that your information is about WP:Consensus. However, I'm citing WP:IINFO to tell you that when we decide whether an info should be included, we think more than WP:Verifiability. Isn't your content sitting well and all in the sub-article? Why are you raising this again?Forbidden User (talk) 18:16, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Content about consensus is not at all about random WP:IINFO. Per WP:SUMMARY, we summarise the content of the sub-article in the summary section here. QuackGuru (talk) 18:29, 19 August 2014 (UTC)