|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Xenosaga article.|
|Xenosaga was one of the good article nominees, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.|
|WikiProject Video games||(Rated C-class, Low-importance)|
|WikiProject Anime and manga||(Rated C-class, Low-importance)|
This article has a high number of links that direct to now defunct pages -- that redirect back to this page. There is a high number of game specific phrases that need to be archived somewhere - however I am unsure where they should go.--Markozeta (talk) 00:00, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I've added a short description of Xenosaga Freaks, especially the part of the game called Xeno Komi, since the Episode III database specifically mentions a number of events that occurred in Xeno Komi as having actually happened in the Xenosaga universe. That and it seemed odd that the Xenosaga manga would merit a mention but an entire Xenosaga game with distinct content was nowhere to be seen, while searching for Xenosaga Freaks on Wikipedia redirects to a page that doesn't mention it. Princess Artemis (talk) 14:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The Intro is Awful
I am new to this article, but I would like to point out that at least one of the introductory paragraphs is awful and borderline incomprehensible to someone who has not played Xenogears: While the connection in storyline to Xenosaga and Xenogears is only speculative, they do have stylistic connections. Like Final Fantasy has it's chocobos and Cids, the Xenos share stylistic similarities, such as their use of anime style, similar feels to character designs and locations, and gameplay similarities, such as button-mapped attacks, big combos, and mech battles. And there are plenty of design throwbacks in their characters. Nephilim looks like Elly, Shion's outfit in I is very similar to Elly's, and chaos looks like Billy without the robe
"Like Final Fantasy has it's chocobos and Cids"? Where's the wikilink on Final Fantasy? Why is this sentence even here, for that matter? Those who are familiar enough with Final Fantasy to understand this sentence likely already know at least a little about Xenosaga. Those who are unfamiliar with Xenosaga or Xenogears are unlikely to learn anything from this sentence.
"the Xenos"? This is a fanboy shortening of "the Xenosaga series". I don't think Wikipedia has hard drive space issues requiring authors to prune individual bytes from articles. Encyclopedia articles should maintain a decently professional level of language.
"button-mapped attacks", "big combos"? These are barely similarities, and neither are explained to people who have not played either of the games.
"Nephilim", "Elly", "Shion", "chaos", and "Billy" should all be wikilinked to the relevant locations. "in I" is unprofessional; "in Xenosaga: Episode I" would be better. The sentence fragment "And there are plenty of design throwbacks in their characters." is just plain awful.
Here's a suggested rewrite. I haven't played either of the Xenosaga games, so I am unfamiliar with them. My rewrite is based on the existing paragraph:
While Xenogears and Xenosaga are not strictly connected in terms of storyline, they do have stylistic connections. The games share a somewhat similar battle system, a common anime graphical style, and the use of mecha. Several main characters of the Xenosaga series are similar in design to Xenogears characters.
In addition, I question whether or not the connection between Xenogears and Xenosaga requires two paragraphs in the introduction. Introductions should be short and concise, giving the necessary details about the article.
I hope you welcome my suggestions
--18.104.22.168 02:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC) (my account is Stumpokapow, but I am not currently logged in)
I think "the connection in storyline [between] Xenosaga and Xenogears is only speculative" is a better, more true statement than "Xenogears and Xenosaga are not strictly connected in terms of storyline". Also, the statement in the current introduction: "there is no relationship between the two storylines" needs to be removed for being misleading. The makers of Xenosaga said in an interview (referenced in another section of this discussion page) that they can't say there is a connection because of their relationship with the owner of Xenogears. That doesn't mean that there is not a connection. --22.214.171.124 22:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
List of peer review conclusions
Split Episode I, Episode II, Episode III, and perhaps the smaller side story games/items into seperate articles. This will accomplish the following:
- Less confusion in the series article
- Ability to add depth to each series article.
- I think splitting the article into different articles would cause confusion. As it is, this article isn't confusing at all. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 06:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I think the article is fine as is, but I do like the three major episodes having their own articles. That way, we can enhance gameplay inormation, where it stands in the plot, and so on. Deckiller 14:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
You guys state that the game is a "trilogy" - that isn't true iirc it's contains seven parts not three.
- Nope, it's a trilogy. Xenosaga has been announced as being canceled after part III. Nezu Chiza 19:32, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Is there a link to such an announcement? All I remember seeing is that Xenosaga III will end the Shion story arc which is the trilogy.
The announcement was made before the release of Xenosaga 3. It was a press announcement without any substantial documentation to clarify or complete its statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 22:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I think there needs to be a clarification.
In the section on Episode II, we have:
"Although Xenosaga EPISODE II answered many questions related to the U.R.T.V. and the Miltia Conflict in EPISODE I, there has been no word on just how connected Xenosaga is to Xenogears, except a slight revelation towards the end of the game relating to Abel's Ark. The rest is shrouded in mystery -- such as chaos and Nephilim's true identities."
However, there is a large revelation about chaos's true identity at the end of the episode, when Wilhelm names him.
I was confused as to whether this was talking specifically about chaos's identity as a Xenosaga-Xenogears connection, or his identity more generally.
188.8.131.52 07:16, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure if "a reference to existentialist themes present in the games" is the correct way to put it. If anyone wants to correct it, feel free.
Someone42 12:07, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Someone has done so.
Any screenshots for post episode 2 games. I'd like to see something from Episodes 3, 4, and 5 if possible. I'll try to take some from Episodes 1 and 2 if the article needs them.
- Um... Episodes 3, 4, and 5 weren't even created yet. They haven't even started making the Japanese versions. → JarlaxleArtemis 19:02, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
Xenoculture - the line between fancruft and encyclopedia
There are dozens of one- or two-paragraph articles all about various minor people, places, things, and ideas about Xenosaga, all of it of limited interest to anyone but devoted fans of the game, and I was pondering wrapping them up into List articles, similar to how similar lists have been handled with, for example, the Pokémon cruft. Would anyone be interested in helping me with this? My Xeno-fu isn't exactly the strongest. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 05:45, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I have done the same with the Xenogears page, and I was just coming here to suggest this as well. I think it's an excellent idea. We could always create a wikibook to go into complete detail. - Deckiller
Oh, one more thing. Coming to think of it, the List of Xenogears Terms could be completely ignored, for most of the information is either going to be fit into the other articles as sections or explained in their appropriate section. I was merely trying to keep the page operational so that all the links to the page still had some material on it ^_^. So, alphebetical sections for Main Characters, Side Characters, Planets, Star Ships, Organizations, and Other?
Heya, all pages are merged, except for the main characters. I'll take care of that asap ^^. We can work from there. Deckiller 01:33, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Heya, there's now a Xenoaga Wikicities page at xenosaga.wikicities.com. I'll be playing around with it and whatnot, but that's where all the heavy duty cruft and whatnot will go. Feel free to help transfer, expand, etc.
What are we going to do with articles such as A.M.W.S. and whatnot that have been merged together? There really should only be the list pages, main pages, and main character pages. The rest should be deleted, eh? Deckiller 00:33, 5 November 2005 (UTC) This obviously comes from someone who just dosent care.If you cant see the place this series had in the history of ps2 rpgs you just should steer away from the genre to other places on wiki please.Wikimakesmart (talk) 05:40, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Any objections to using this? Any suggestions? Deckiller 02:00, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
This article seems to have a bit of an nPOV problem with lots of criticism scattered throughout the game descriptions, etc. I think it would be a good idea to create a separate section for all of these complaints. 184.108.40.206
- I agree; I tried to correct some of it, but others just kept adding it. I think that some people may think this is an open game site.... I'll work on that section right away. Deckiller 22:39, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Forgive my poor editing style
I tend to make a long chain of fifteen-twenty minor edits at a time. I'll try and shave that down significantly, for the sake of anyone reading the edit summaries. Deckiller 03:10, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Relationship to Xenogears
Is it really necessary? Perhaps we could highlight the fact that Xenogears and Xenosaga are different by sourcing an interview. That way, no speculation or comparison is needed. We can then put that simple sentence in the introduction, plop a footnote or whatever, and get a step further toward a featured article. Deckiller 02:35, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
- I had a look at sourcing an interview for you. There's an interview from GameSpot which discusses the relationship (highlight from Takahashi: "But with our relation between Square, I think it is difficult for us to say it is a direct sequel or prequel. It's probably more suitable to say that it follows the direction and style of Xenogears") - not really totally inline with what I've heard from Monolithsoft before but it's the only interview I can find. --Ed-E 19:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, looks good :) Thanks. Deckiller 22:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that there is no section on Gameplay in this article. Granted, the articles on the individual games talk about it, but it is appropriate to mention the common elements of gameplay found in all the different games. Also, the screenshots in the article need to have a fair use rationale on their description pages. For an example see Image:Zelda wind waker.jpg. The article also only has partial references for its content. Excellent article so far though! Jacoplane 04:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Pasted: A plea for sanity
Folks, it's great that everybody's adding content and attempting to wikify their articles, but please, before you hit that big shiny Submit button, take a look at the preview and click on some of the wiki-links you've created. Make sure they go where you meant for them to go - I've already cleaned up a couple of [[Shion]] links that redirected to the Shion in the King of Fighters universe, for example. Also, if you're wiki-linking to a page containing a list of terms/list of characters/list of whatever, you can make the link take the user DIRECTLY to the appropriate section by using the # sign.
Example follows: [[List of antagonists in Xenosaga#Albedo|Albedo]] instead of [[Albedo]] will take the user to the character from Xenosaga instead of the definition of "the measure of reflectivity of a surface or body". Syntax is [[target page#section|substituted text]].
teh TK 20:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC) "Hard work pays off later.. laziness pays off now"
- I spent hours cleaning up the wikilinks on some of the list pages, so I must agree with TKarrde on this one. Deckiller 21:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I need you all to not be petty. Also, where TF is the xenogears information?
I'm a newcomer to the series, and this entry is squandering most of its potential for usefulness and as a real source of reference. For instance, why did you italicize "spritual sucessor" in the 2nd paragraph? Derrr....Duh? Did someone wanted to fight about it at some point? REALLY really wanted to fight about it? Did someone win? Is he now kind of a dick?
In that huge 'series overview' box at the bottom, how come Xenogears isn't mentioned? How come that huge artbook covering the Xenosaga background and common themes between gears and saga isn't even mentioned? What is it called, Perfect Works Artbook? It's mentioned ONCE. This is like having ALL MENTIONS OF MARIO edited out of the entry on Wario. Get your act together, you nitpicking fanboys. Want another analogy? This is like editing out all but one mention of Macross in an entry on Robotech. I want to know how the two are thematically tied together, and how aspects of each mirror the other in development, not the fact that part of the fanbase is going out of its way to tell us, YELL at us that xenogears and xenosaga episode 1 are, SHOCK, two separate games that must be purchased separately.
I mean, look at the 'series' box in the xenogears entry. characters? ooh, SUPPORING characters? factions? WEAK. Anyone curious about the series (as I am) will stumble onto these two pages and know instantly that there has been some kind of flame war, with article usability = attrition fodder.
Asdfff 08:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
- Please see WP:CIVIL and stop attacking users by calling them "nitpicking fanboys" because the article is incomplete. Thank you.
- Oh, and I think it must be said that there haven't been any "flame wars". — Deckiller 11:51, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
- Moreover, to answer some of your questions:
- Italics on Wikipedia are often used for emphasis. It is important to make clear that Xenosaga features some similarities with Xenogears, but the two storylines are not related. No "flame wars" involved, I'm afraid.
- And no, there hasn't been any "flame (edit) wars", because many new claims and WP:POV statements are reverted within seconds. See the hundreds of others of "list of" pages on the site.
- And in your second paragraph you claim that there needs to be a second describing similarities between the two games. For this, you are correct; there was once a section, but it was so riddled with unsourced claims and POV that it had to be dropped. Relevant, neutral point of view information was included in the allusions and influences section. You are welcome to contribute to a restarted section, though I have put this page lower on my priorities with the rise of new issues such as bringing New England Patriots to featured article status and my RfA. — Deckiller 12:24, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
- Apologies, my gut reaction was knowing peripherally how much information there used to be in the caches before varying POVs started to balloon the article. If you're the only one coralling all the edits, good work and I don't envy you. I'm going to try to go through gamefaqs and the old caches here and distill out NPOV data. I'm also going to think of a concise way to link the saga/gears using that little box down there. May revise the already-given sample over the weekend. Asdfff 04:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Beyond Good and Evil/Other Side of Good and Evil
Just wanted to clarify why I removed the comment from the Ep. II section about Jensites translating "loosely" to beyond and more correctly to the other side. Beyond itself means "the other side" in the sense that if you go beyond a door, you've gone to the other side of it.
Xenosaga I & II
Maybe I can't find it or something, but I guess if one existed it would be linked from here. Anyway, is there a XS1&2 article or is anyone going to start one? -- Remy Suen 01:23, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
- It appears the only article we have of it is that little itty bitty thing on this page. I have the game, but seeing as I don't know Japanese, I doubt I could be much help in writing an article for it. But someone really needs to either improve the section for I & II we have since about half of it was obviously written before its release (it's written in the future tense as if the game hadn't been released) or there needs to be a whole separate article for I & II made. --Trance 21:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think a new article should be made as I feel that people will contribute accordingly once it starts getting some hits. It may not be immediately obvious that this article has a section for I & II, so some potential contributors may just move on. --Remy Suen 13:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Has there been any thought of creating a single soundtrack article like what Final Fantasy X has or possibly individual articles for each soundtrack (the former is probably preferable, I'm guessing?). I have created separate articles as user subpages for Episode II and Episode III. Since I don't own the soundtracks myself, I have not added their time lengths yet (and well, Episode III's isn't out yet, but I'll be getting both through Amazon.co.jp when my order gets shipped when III's soundtrack is released). If no one has any issues in the next couple of days, I will go ahead and create a Xenosaga Soundtracks page and add it to the template. I'm sure that most of us here would agree that Xenosaga has great music, so an article would only be appropriate. --Remy Suen 19:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- Completely agree. When the Xenosaga series is complete and I begin trying to push it for FA status (which will be tough, given that there are several games in the series and the FA push will be for the general series article), we can have a brief soundtrack section with a link to the page. If you're interested in helping me out with other projects for the page, I would be very happy :) But I don't plan on starting until episode III and the I and II DS remake are released in America. — Deckiller 20:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Allusions and influences
It's stated that "Italic textFurthermore, "Abel" and "Abel's Ark" are references to a biblical figure of the same name.Italic text." There is no "Abel's Ark" in the Bible. I would suggest combining Yeshua and Abel in one sentence when referring to Biblical figures.
After a look at it, I have found that on this page, E.S isn't here, althought on many pages it redirects here. Unless I missed it, I will change it, unless someone else wants to do it? Sakurato (talk) 02:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I, too, have noticed that problem. I was looking for definitions of U-DO, U.M.N., U.R.T.V. It appears that a page of definitions has been deleted, without providing a suitable substitute. Joeinwap (talk) 10:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
DME_Addiction Hilbert_Effect List_of_organizations_in_Xenosaga#Galaxy_Federation List_of_organizations_in_Xenosaga#Hyams List_of_organizations_in_Xenosaga#Immigrant_Fleet List_of_organizations_in_Xenosaga#Ormus List_of_organizations_in_Xenosaga#S.O.C.E. List_of_organizations_in_Xenosaga#Salvator_Faction List_of_organizations_in_Xenosaga#U-TIC_Organization List_of_organizations_in_Xenosaga#Vector_Industries List_of_organizations_in_Xenosaga#Yuriev_Industries List_of_organizations_in_Xenosaga#Ziggurat_Industries List_of_planets_in_Xenosaga#Abraxas List_of_planets_in_Xenosaga#Fifth_Jerusalem List_of_planets_in_Xenosaga#Michtam List_of_planets_in_Xenosaga#Old_Miltia List_of_planets_in_Xenosaga#Pleroma List_of_planets_in_Xenosaga#Second_Miltia List_of_starships_in_Xenosaga#Durandal List_of_starships_in_Xenosaga#Elsa List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#A.M.W.S. List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Anima_Relics List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Cathedral_Ship List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Encephalon List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Erde_Kaiser List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#E.S. Simeon List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Executive_Committee_Director List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Gnosis List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Labyrinthos List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Lemegeton List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Miltian_Conflict List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Phase_Transfer_Weaponry List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Proto_Merkabah List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Proto_.CE.A9 (Proto Ω) List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Realian List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Song_of_Nephilim List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#T.C. List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#U-DO List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#U.M.N. List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#U.R.T.V. List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Vessel_of_Anima List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Y-Data List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Zarathustra List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Zohar List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Zohar_Emulator List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#.CE.A9_System (Ω System) Vector_Industries Woglinde_(Xenosaga) Xenosaga_(other)#Bormeo_University
It seems that these definitions were pulled off from List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga, yet the entire Xenosaga wiki was a mere copy and paste of the old pages and is not up to date. Due to the numerous terms exclusive to this game, I believe that perhaps the best place for the transwiki of these terms should be on wikidictionary. I'd sign as markozeta, but seems I forgot to login... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 16:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Fair use rationale for Image:XenoLogo.JPG
Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:XenoLogo.JPG. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia constitutes fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.
If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Rockfang (talk) 03:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Xenosaga List of Terms
(moved discussion from Talk:List_of_terms_in_Xenosaga#Links_in_Xenosaga_pages_confusing.)
Understood. No, I would not like an undeletion, the list is a cleanup nightmare. After a bit of brainstorming, I came up with an alternative to replace the confusing links on the Xenosaga Pages. I'm proposing using footnotes on the terms to direct the reader to the proper wikia site. Is this proper protocol? And if so, do you know of any examples? Please let me know. --Markozeta (talk) 18:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
From the Xenosaga Terms List talk page, in response to your denial to edit the protected page. Thank you for your prompt response to my request for edit and congratulations on your recent admin status! I would appreciate an answer to my questions, as I do not want to devote time editing the page with a system inconsistent with the rest of wikipedia.--Markozeta (talk) 18:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Hey, thanks for the congratulations. I'm really no expert on video games (nor articles on video games), but I did a little looking to see how articles on other games are written. I think a good place to look would be the World of Warcraft article and its talk page, as this one has generated lots of edits and discussion. In that article, they put a link to their external wiki (wowwiki.com) at the bottom in the External links section, but also include inline links that go directly to the site (see the Character Classes subsection in the article). You might also want to read these two sections in the talk page, which have some discussion about external links: Talk:World_of_Warcraft#WoWwiki_reference_at_top.2C_or_only_at_the_bottom.3F, Talk:World_of_Warcraft#Confusing_links. To me, it seems that consensus is that adding excessive detail about niche aspects of the game is best left for the external wiki, with an occasional inline link to that wiki when necessary. I'd say just use good judgment, be bold, and see what happens. --CapitalR (talk) 20:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Who wants to help?
- I could add reviews to this article and add some other references, but maybe that's about it. GamerPro64 (talk) 00:04, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Unless i simply do not understand, Wikipedia policy is that all external links should be marked as such. Are the multiple links in the 'Setting' section to 'wikia.com' somehow exempt from this policy?18.104.22.168 (talk) 16:32, 1 February 2010 (UTC)