Talk:Xiaolongbao

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Merger with Biao[edit]

Since Xialongbao is a misnamed food - it's actually a dumpling, Gao(Cantonese) or jiaozi(Mandarin), than a bun, Bao, it might be merged with Jiaozi. Since Xialongbao is a very specific type of dumpling, I don't see why it can't have it's own article. Vote - do NOT merge. Dyl 17:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I also vote against a merge. LDHan 18:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
As above. Xiao long bao are NOT a type of chinese bun; placing them under baozi would be incorrect. They are a type of dumpling and will often be found under "dumplings" or "jiao zi" on a Chinese menu. As xiao long bao are quite unique, they should have their own wiki entry. Defintely voting against a merge. Djwatson 07:29, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Exactly. The merge template has been removed. --ryan-d 17:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
This is really funny as no one in China would think Xialongbao has anything to do with Jiaozi :) But anyway it's now explain in the article. Took 06:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Straw[edit]

Is this the bun that has soup inside and drank with a straw? Or is that another shanghai bun? Benjwong 21:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

That's the Tangbao ("soup bun") from Yangzhou and other nearby regions. That bun doesn't have its own article, but I think I footnoted its existence in this article. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 20:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh ok. Tangbao really deserve its own article. Is pretty unique. Benjwong 22:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

It would be useful to have expert advice on how to eat these. The one Chinese person I saw eating them just put each one in a soup spoon, and ate it in several bites, which is also the best method I found, but she and I still spilled most of soup in each one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.190.247.28 (talk) 15:56, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

There are a couple methods for eating these. The first one you mentioned, using a spoon to catch the soup. Shanghai people have also mastered eating these by sucking out the soup in a certain way. You take a small bite suck out all the soup, and then eat it like a normal bao zi. This is the method all my relatives from Shanghai use. Hope this helps :]

And by the way tangbao is very popular in Shanghai and considered very similar to Xiaolongbao. Definitely deserves it's own article, and it's much fun to eat. The straw method is not very convenient though. >w< Moon wolff (talk) 08:31, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The trick is to hold only the knot (and not the soft underbelly) with your chopsticks. Then bite a tiny nick on the side of the bottom, suck out the soup through that nick, then eat the rest of the bun. (Use a Chinese spoon as insurance in case you break it.) --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 22:43, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Never heard this referred to as mantou[edit]

I lived in Shanghai recently for a year (just above a place that served this, in fact) and I never once heard them referred to as Xiaolong mantou. My Mandarin is pretty good and my shanghai hua is OK, so I've heard it plenty in the language. Someone please verify that statement with a native of shanghai. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kenneth of oh (talkcontribs) 00:19, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

In Shanghainese, all types of buns are called "mantou". The new-fangled "-bao" name has only emerged in recent years under the influence of northern Mandarin which makes a distinction between "bao" and "mantou". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:53, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Dubious - Jia Jia Tan Bao[edit]

A paragraph has been added to the article about a "Jia Jia Tan Bao". Apart from this not being a well known restaurant (and possibly spelled wrong), it is cited as an unverifiable "page 26 Newsweek". Propose deleting unless anyone has heard of this restaurant and can verify the claim. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 22:47, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I think the user misspell "Jia Jia Tan Bao", it should "Jia Jia Tang Bao" which is i guess pretty popular considering it's on ChinaDaily and other such as [1][2].--LLTimes (talk) 17:07, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Source of literal translation[edit]

the article says that the literal meaning "little-dragon bun", is there a source for this?

My understanding is that 笼 in 小笼包 stands for a type of basket, for example from http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%AC%BC, or here http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE7ZdicACZdicBC.htm,

Does anyone know why here it would stand for dragon ? 107.6.15.215 (talk) 23:42, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

The character 笼 is a bamboo radical over the phonetic 龙. It means basket and does not mean dragon. But the phonetic 龙 by itself means dragon. Both are pronounced long2 in Mandarin. Colin McLarty (talk) 19:39, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


Other forms of xiaolongbao[edit]

It is not the same everywhere . For years now small restaurants in Beijing have featured a staple product called "小笼包" which is not the one in this article. It is steamed in a small basket -- hence the name -- and made with partially raised flour. But it is just a thin skin around a piece of ground pork as big as the one in a regular baozi. Much more meat compared to flour than a regular baozi. There is no kind of pinching at the top, no kind of circular cascade of ripples, and indeed no crown. There is nothing like soup or aspic in it and the design could not possibly hold any. The article might mention that "小笼包" does not mean the same everywhere. Colin McLarty (talk) 08:55, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

That's a good point. Certainly "xiaolongbao" could mean any small sized baozi. Have added a note to this effect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.189.73.197 (talk) 12:38, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Well, no, it couldn't mean any small-sized baozi. M M'Larty is right that it would need to involve these baskets. He presumably held off on editing the page because he wasn't sure how common such shanzhai XLB really are: I think that's wise. Let's wait and hear from more people, hopefully with some WP:RS. — LlywelynII 00:59, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
I held off because I am not sure how important it is, and I have no RS. As to how common the term is, though, it has been very common for years in Beijing, at least from the north 4th Ring Road to the south 3rd Ring Road; and around Shanxi University in Taiyuan. And it cannot just be in those places. As to "shanzhai," these are not look alikes to soup dumplings -- or inferior. Soup dumplings are widely sold in Beijing at fancier restaurants and no one could confuse them with this kind of xiaolongbao. This kind cannot injure your lips and tongue. Colin McLarty (talk) 12:25, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Chinglish[edit]

I am certain that 62.189.73.197's edits are well-meaning: he publishes edit notes and contacts editors in an attempt to inform them of their 'mistakes'. Sadly, w/r/t this page, he seems to be suffering from some Chinglish side effects of Chinese English education. The actual English name of 包子 is baozi, not "steamed bun". That's why we have the term in "sneer quotes" in the lead sentence. Particularly with regard to XLB, it is misleading to refer to them as "~ buns": an English image of a bun is about as far from a thin-skinned soup dumpling as it's possible to get and still be in the same size class. Dim sum does derive from "touch your heart" but (again, particularly in this context) it is not a "snack food" as that term is used in English.* As the previous article made clear, the common usage of English "dim sum" is actually distinct from snacks: "Let's go get some dim sum" is an invitation to a meal; grabbing a quick bite when you're feeling peckish is "having a snack". I'll go through the rest of his additions to see what merits continued inclusion, but neither of those should be restored. — LlywelynII 12:55, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

*If 62.189.73.197 does drop by and was curious, the problem is that Chinese 点心 happens to include concepts that have nothing to do with the English ideas of small-servings of food eaten during a meal, specifically 甜点 and 小吃. The former is "dessert", the latter is "snack", and neither fits with XLB, except on occasions when it's consumed in small portions and away from a larger meal. The use of dim sum in this article is more general and "snack" is inappropriate.

Hi there, my comments on your points:
  • "Baozi" is a Chinese term which is conventionally translated as "steamed bun", and there is no issue of confusion to add that after any use of "baozi". The xiaolongbao is a type of baozi, to call it a "dumpling" is to impose a regionally specific understanding of "dumpling". Similar breads to "baozi" in most European countries are translated into English as "buns", not "dumplings". To translate "baozi" or "bao" as dumpling is neoglogistic. If you feel that labeling them as steamed buns in this context is misleading, I would counsel that the better approach is to say once that "baozi" generally means "filled steamed buns", then leave the other references untranslated.
  • I agree that "soup dumpling" is a common alternative name. Perhaps consider giving more prominence to this alternative name - that would be better than saying "baozi" means "dumpling".
  • There is probably no exactly apt translation for dianxin. Certainly, dianxin is more substantial than lingshi, and on that basis you might object to its translation as "snack" - I can see that point. Perhaps it is, again, best to leave it untranslated.
Hope the above is constructive. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:03, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
It is constructive. It is also, as noted above, misinformed.
  • Review the page baozi. The COMMON ENGLISH term for it is baozi. That's not a neologism: it's how English works with foreign foods. See also the English "translations" of tofu, sushi, sake, kimchi, and (getting closer to home) huangjiu (which is sometimes called "yellow wine" since it's a form of rice wine) and baijiu (which is not ever even a little bit "white wine"). "Steamed bun" is only common in Chinese English education and is very misleading to native English speakers w/r/t xiaolongbao. If you have serious issues with this, take it up with the kind fellows over at talk:baozi in a move discussion; it will still remain an inappropriate term to reference soup dumplings, except in sneer quotes like we were using before.
  • I think I see what the underlying problem is now. Calling 包子 dumplings is not a Chinese "regionalism": it is English. Baozi (correctly) is included in category:Dumplings, is part of template:Dumplings, and is seen on List of dumplings. Dim sum (even more correctly) describes the fluffy rice-bun kinds of baozi as "buns" while pointedly calling XLB "dumplings". It is a dumpling. "Chinese dumpling" does link to jiaozi, but the English word "dumpling" ≠ 饺子. It's much, much more inclusive and much, much more appropriate for XLB than "bun".
  • There are apt translations of 点心. Just like with 包子, though, they depend on context (as noted above) and cannot be done one-for-one. Here, XLB are an appetizer, à la carte item, or (small) entrée. The problem has nothing to do with how filling they are; they aren't snacks because they're being included in a larger meal.
Again, you're a bit touchy but well meaning. You have to realize that English concepts sometimes just don't match up at all with Chinese categories and involve different distinctions. Bun-like 包子 are called buns but XLB are dumplings; Chinese 点心 includes snacks and desserts but English dim sum is a different beast that refers to a kind of dinner or restaurant. Even though I'm in the middle of other work, I will go through your other edits to see if there are good additions to the page content and restore them while we wait to see about the problems noted above. — LlywelynII 13:15, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
By the way, I am undoing your mass reversion because you are removing useful information which has been part of this article for a long time, without a proper explanation. If you have issues with specific edits, you should focus on improving them, mass reversion is not appropriate. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:07, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Nope. I will go through the edits to see what worked well but you will stop restoring them in violation of WP:3RR before I have to report you and have you and the URL banned from editing. You seem well meaning. Now kindly quit this edit warring. — LlywelynII 13:15, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! — LlywelynII 00:52, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Recent URL editing to the page[edit]

Presumably these are all by PalaceGuard008, although he still has not confirmed that:

  • 1: Mistranslations of various Chinese terms, as discussed above
  • 2: Inclusion of off-topic & unsourced digression on non-XLB mantous, inclusion of unnecessary & unsourced section on "English translation" already dealt with in infobox and other parts of the page; the information about the shaping of the XLB should be (re)included, but in a section on manufacture, not translation, and with sources.
  • 3: Removal of XLB as alt name is possibly appropriate, although it being "slang" is irrelevant; the question is only how common the slang is; personally, I lean towards its continued inclusion.
  • 4: Inappropriate removal of a literal translation, apparently through misunderstanding of what "literal translation" means
  • 5: Additional mistranslation of Chinese term, as edit 1 above
  • 6: Inclusion of use in Jiangnan-style tea should be kept, if not mentioned elsewhere (albeit it could use a source and needs formatting around Chinese text).
  • 7: Inclusion of alternative uses of the term XLB isn't bad but needs more clarification in order to be helpful; the editor actually misunderstands the point being made on the talk page; that editor's dumpling was not any form of "tangbao"
  • 8: Corrects the mistake, but shows the editor doesn't really understand the senses in which XLB might refer to other regional dishes apart from the Liangjiang version. Therefore, we shouldn't keep that note, pending more sources or discussion from more knowledgable editors.

Looking at the two edits that should be kept, they aren't the second one isn't mentioned elsewhere on the page and therefore should be included. I'm ok with removal of XLB, pending someone showing it's in more common use than just my talk-page shorthand. ; ) We shouldn't include discussion of other meanings of "XLB" until we're sure exactly what those meanings are, with sources.

I'll restore the appropriate parts and am fine with sourcing or expanding them, given the phrasing mentioned above. — LlywelynII 13:37, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Morning tea[edit]

Currently redirects to a page solely about UK & Irish use. Now, that doesn't mean the link is bad; I personally find it helpful as a reminder that we're talking about British "tea" (sometimes ="snack") instead of American "tea" (which never does). More importantly, I've never in my life seen Chinese taking a "morning tea", let alone as a regular cultural item, but, if it's an actual part of traditional Chinese culture that's just gone by the wayside under the PRC, we should mention it and, even better, go change morning tea to reflect a more-inclusive world view and end the current WP:BIAS problem. It needs sourcing, though. — LlywelynII 13:56, 12 August 2014 (UTC)