Talk:Yigdal

Judaism Mid‑importance

	Judaism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Songs

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Songs, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of songs on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SongsWikipedia:WikiProject SongsTemplate:WikiProject Songssong articles

Untitled[edit]

It seems that this page is mostly a pull from the public-domain Jewish Encyclopedia. I'm not sure if it would be more proper to simply restate this information in a more wikipedia fashion or do a complete rewrite. Either way, I'm not qualified.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jipis (talk • contribs) 23:14, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's horrible as it is, as it contains references to melody transcriptions which aren't here!— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.201.18 (talk • contribs) 02:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tempo of music samples[edit]

This page is much improved since I last dropped by, and the audio MIDI files add significantly to it. But, the tempo used for those performances make it sound like a dirge. I've heard Yigdal sung in numerous synagogues to a variety of melodies (two definitely not Leoni variants), and never once have I heard it sung as slowly as it is in those MIDI files. It's usually a sprightly upbeat tempo you could march to. I've also heard it sung by Methodists and Presbyterians. They seem to like slowing it way down. Douglas W. Jones (talk) 03:44, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've reviewed the tempos following your comments. For the Christian hymn I think the tempo is about right; congregational singing is always slower than choral singing and much slower than an instrumental performance. However, as I have no experience of Jewish practice, then feel free to up the tempo of the first two to that appropriate for a synagogue. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:30, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here are two recordings of the Leoni melody performed by good cantors and synagogue choirs

[1] (pandemic)
[2]

Both of these are fast compared to the tempos of the MIDIs. The first one above was recorded during the pandemic, with the choir out in Internetland and the voices blended electronically. The tempo seems slow to me, but that may have been forced by the technology. The second is very close to the tempo I'd expect in a large congregation. It might go faster in a small congregation. With 13 verses, a slow tempo would take an awful long time to sing. I've never heard a congregation pick and choose which verses to sing, it's always all of them.

Given the difference in tempos between typical Jewish and Christian uses of this melody, I wonder if the melody should be presented differently in the Jewish and Christian sections of this article. I do note, however, that cantors singing in high operatic style do tend to slow down the tempos of just about everything they sing. Leoni was an opera star, and you can find modern operatic recordings of Yigdal that are as slow as the tempo of the MIDIs in questions. Douglas W. Jones (talk) 02:10, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Douglas W. Jones: I've upped the tempo slightly for the Christian version, from minim = 100 to 120. I think that's a fair balance of speed for the simple notes and retaining the grandeur of the piece as played on an organ with 16' or 32' stops in a 1,000 seater church leading a congregation. The original image for the Ashkenazi version had the tempo set to "Moderato", which is what Lilypond is interpreting. Usually in Lilypond you can set the MIDI speed differently from the printed score, but not unfortunately in WP's implementation. I've therefore added a metronome mark to the general tempo marking. The Sephardic tune sounded silly at ♩ = 180, so I've set it at ♩ = 140. The Ashkenazi version I've left at ♩ = 180. Please listen to them and tell me what you think. Listening to the virtual choir (superb BTW, thanks) I'm not convinced that they are singing quite the same version as that published by Adler & Cohen in the Jewish Encyclopedia (1901–1906). If you have an alternative, public domain, version that is more in line with modern practice, please let me know and I'll see if I can transcribe them into Lilypond. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:29, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS - I've added links both to your first one and to an example of Christian congregational singing at the slower tempo. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:40, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]