Talk:Four-ball

Find sources: "four-ball" billiard – news · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images
Find sources: "fourball" billiard – news · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images
Find sources: "4-ball" billiard – news · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images
Find sources: "4ball" billiard – news · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images
Find sources: "yotsudama" billiard – news · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images
Find sources: "danggu" billiard – news · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images
Find sources: "danggoo" billiard – news · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images

Four Ball

[This topic was originally posted to Talk:Cue sport and has been copied here because of its relevance.]

Four ball is a very popular carom game played in Korea. Even though I can't find an English webpage that explains how to play (an indication the game may not be popular among English speakers), I feel the game should be documented in wikipedia.

I can attest that the game is played in the US, as I know it's played in a pool hall in Boston that has carom tables.

I'd like to gather up all the information I have on Four Ball (hopefully by finding a set of rules from a book) and write up a new article. Any objections or thoughts from other people before I move forward?

Note that it's a *carom* game, not to be confused with "American Four-Ball Billiards". The following quote from the Billiard Congress of America website explains American Four-Ball Billiards:

The dominant American billiard game until the 1870’s was American Four-Ball Billiards, usually played on a large (11 or 12-foot), four-pocket table with four balls - two white and two red.

fyi: The game is played with two red balls and two white (cue) balls. One of the white balls is spotted or yellow to differentiate it from the other.

Thanks everyone.--PaulLopez 04:06, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hadn't noticed this post before, so this note is a bit retroactive: The vague mention of a variant in the four-ball article stub led me to fork it into four-ball and yotsudama after some investigation. Both articles need more material and especially some references. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 22:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Variant

While stationed in Korea, I played Four Ball at the rec room on post. I know that the way I was taught by the local Koreans, your cue ball had to strike both red balls without hitting the opponent's cue. We played to a predetermined point level at which time, we had to "3 cushion" to win (cue ball has to touch 3 cushions before striking the final red ball). This may have been a local variant.

Splitting the article

Resolved: Split made, then later reversed.

It's very clear from the description of the balls that "Four-ball version 2" is yostudama. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 14:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Marking topic resolved, as article was split. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal

Resolved: Re-merge performed.

I can find precisely zero evidence that four-ball and yotsudama are not the same game. Merging the latter into the former is thus called for (and not the other way around, per WP naming conventions - prefer English-language names over foreign terms.) Followup discussion should happen at Talk:Four ball not Talk:Yotsudama. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 08:58, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I support your merge proposal. There are only minor differences among the International, Korean and Japanese rules so they can be merged under one page.

I thought "yoSTudama" was a typo of "yoTSudama" as a first glance but now I feel "yoSTudama" may also be a legitimate spelling. In Japanese, it is definitely "yoTSudama". However, according to one Japanese Web site, Korean players use many loanwords from Japanese. So they may use the loanword for the game's name as well. I know there is no 'TSU' sound in the Korean language and "yoTSudama" may have become "yoSTudama" in Korea. And it is most likely it was Korean players who brought the game to the West because "yoTSudama" or ("yoSTudama") is very popular in Korea, and it is not now in Japan. We need a Korean native contributor on this matter.

After you merge the articles, I'll add the section for the Japanese rule, which is again slightly different from the rule described in this Yotsudama article. Tarafuku10 13:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Another opinion...

I wrote original text about for korean four-ball.

1. I've played the game in Korea and have spoken with Korean players. The game in Korea is called "danggu" (another English spelling is danggoo), which is a Korean word which translates to "four-ball". Whatever the decision to merge the articles, this subject should be under "yotsudama" alone, since that is the name only used in Japan. I can think of a few solutions... (1) at least mention that the game is called "danggu" in Korea, (2) forward a "danggu" article to "yotsudama", (3) fold "yotsudama" back into "four-ball" and be sure to note the Japanese, Korean (and other) translation-names of the game.

2. By ALL MEANS, the games (danggu/yotsudama versus four-ball) are different enough to warrant a separate note on wikipedia. Four-ball players always allow the shooter to contact the opponent's cue to score points, whereas to do so in danggu/yotsudama it is a penalty.

3. Check out [[10]] for "danggu" in use. Mrpaulus 21:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't entirely follow you. I'm not sure what you mean by "four-ball" in point #2 above, if not either danggu or yotsudama. Are you proposing that there are three games? NB: I'm well aware of the game "American four-ball billiards", but it has been effectively extinct since the late 1800s, when balkline and straight rail supercede it. Anyway, thanks for the article citation; will have to check that out. That may be virtually our only English-language source at this point! Anyone know Japanese? There's a book (easily findable on Amazon with a search for "yotsudama" but it is in Japanese. Anyway, I would think for the present that (per WP naming conventions), the article should be called Four-ball and have sections on both yotsudama and danggu (and some third "four-ball" game if it can be sourced to exist). Maybe some day there'll be enough sourceable material to warrant separate articles, but right now all of this is frankly a big AfD "magnet". — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

There are TWO general types of four ball games played on a carambole table.

Eastern Europe

One just adds an extra ball to partie-libre, giving two points for a carambole off three balls. This type is quite popular in eastern Europe.

South-East Asia

The other one is mainly played in south-east Asia, mainly Japan and Korea, though China should also be documented here (I have a photo of former Chinese premier Deng Hsiao-Ping playing Asian four-ball in the fifties). In this game it is a fault to hit your opponent's cue ball with your cue ball (though not with ANY ball as youtsudama entry says). The asian game has a Korean and a Japanese variant (at least).

In the Korean variant the opening position is similar to the one in partie-libre, while in the Japanese the cue-ball is placed behind the second red ball (on the first diamond).

In the Japanese variant play ends when the set distance has been reached, in the Korean one one has to go out after that by doing a three cushion shot.

There is an article on the differences between the two on a japanese website, which when web-translated shows the variation between the two variants: http://www.tufs.ac.jp/ts/personal/choes/etc/billiards/danggu.html

Of course the exact rules of the variants, their history and popularity would need to be researched by native readers both in S.E. Asia and Eastern Europe.

dadamaster 20:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Redirect page request

Can someone create redirect pages from the following terms to this article? "Korean Pool", "Korean Billiard", "Korean Billiards", "Danggu"

And four-ball billiards, fourball billiards, 4-ball, etc., etc. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 08:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)