Talk:Zabranjeno Pušenje

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Biography / Musicians (Rated C-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians.
 
WikiProject Bosnia and Herzegovina (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon Zabranjeno Pušenje is part of the WikiProject Bosnia and Herzegovina, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Bosnia and Herzegovina on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Serbia (Rated C-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Serbia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Serbia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Croatia (Rated C-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon Zabranjeno Pušenje is within the scope of WikiProject Croatia, a collaborative effort to improve the quality and coverage of articles related to Croatia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Rock music (Rated C-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Rock music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Rock music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Yugoslavia (Rated C-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon Zabranjeno Pušenje is within the scope of WikiProject Yugoslavia, a collaborative effort to improve the Wikipedia coverage of articles related to Yugoslavia and its nations. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Pop music  
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pop music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Pop music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 

Belgrade band members[edit]

I'd be really nice if someone could help with members of Belgrade band... --Dijxtra 16:35, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Copyvio[edit]

I just noticed that the big chunk of this article is a verbatim copy of this: [1]. Can somebody please try to clarify it? It seems like a simple copy/paste. Anyway, parts of the article, like intro and band members is still salvagable. --Dejan Čabrilo 14:11, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Could you please quote parts of article that are problematic? The thing is I myself wrote probably 50% of the article and I used all kinds of sources, but not that one, so if there is a copyvio problem, it is minor. Therefore, I beg you to remove the tag and I promise I'll rewrite all disputable data myself. I put a lot of work in this article and I know for sure it donesn't deserve copyvio (but I acknowledge the posibility there are some copyvio disputes, and if there are any I empasise they are minor and will be fixed at once). Now, please remove the copyvio tag and lets get to work. --Dijxtra 14:23, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Ok, now I see... Everything from here: [2] is a copyvio, and it was merged (of course, that's nobody's fault) in this article at some point. I think I got it all removed now. --Dejan Čabrilo 14:19, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Oh, I see. Damn, damn, then I merged the copyvio material. Sorry about that. I'll fix this article ASAP. BTW, the source you quoted is in fact a copyvio too, the original is here. --Dijxtra 14:30, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I think I removed everything that was copy/pasted. See if you can find anything else (or if I removed some valid content). --Dejan Čabrilo 15:19, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Translation of the name[edit]

I thing that "forbidden smoking" is very much wrong, since it would represent a kind of smoking which is forbidden, which is not the meaning of "zabranjeno pusenje". I think that "smoking is forbiden" is by far more precise literal translation. --Dijxtra 13:06, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Given that the group calls itself in English "No Smoking Orchestra", why aren't we using that? Their web site is http://www.thenosmokingorchestra.com. - Jmabel | Talk 05:50, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
No Smoking Orchestra is an entirely different name. That band was spawned from Zabranjeno pušenje, but at one point they stopped calling themself Zabranjeno pušenje and started using similar but different name (No smoking Orchestra). Now, "Zabranjeno pušenje" is best translated as "No smoking", as it's a set phrase found on signs saying that smoking is forbidden. :) --dcabrilo 07:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
What Dejan didn't mention is that one of two currently existing fractions of original "Zabranjeno pušenje" still uses that name. So, strictly speaking, it is not true that "the group calls itself in English "No Smoking Orchestra"". Only one fraction of the gruop does that. --Dijxtra 09:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The phrase "Zabranjeno pušenje" simply means "No smoking". I don't see why we would need a more literal translation than that. Zocky | picture popups 15:24, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the truth IS that the name of the band has those two meanings: 1. simple "no smoking", like "no smoking" sign; and 2. "the forbidden smoking" - the smoking that is illegal (zâbranjeno pusenje) - meaning of course: the drugs.--LifeOnMars (talk) 08:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Satan[edit]

Why "As you wait for the dawn with the Satan"? "…with Satan" would be more normal English. Is there anything in the original that requires the definite article? I don't know Serbian, but in general Slavic languages don't even have a definite article. - Jmabel | Talk 05:57, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

No, the original language has no definite article, so what ever sounds more natural in English. --dcabrilo 07:23, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Fixed. --Dijxtra 09:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Two diferent articles[edit]

I think this article should be divided into two after the break up of Sarajevo and Belgrade branches. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.180.66.133 (talk) 20:48, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I support this idea. --PrimEviL 04:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. I will, however, create Zabranjeno Pušenje as a redirect. Jenks24 (talk) 07:54, 15 July 2012 (UTC)



Zabranjeno PušenjeZabranjeno Pušenje – the name of the band is misspelled with digraphs "nj" ("U+01CC LATIN SMALL LETTER NJ") spelled out as combinations of "n" and "j" letters, which goes against the rules of Serbo-Croatian (or Bosnian if one prefers) language. As long as there is no English name of the band (see this thread for details), the native language convention should be followed per Wikipedia:Article titles § Foreign names and anglicization. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:52, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Note: Apart from spelling issue the difference between digraph and two characters heading is pronunciation: the current title reads as IPA: [zabranjɛno puʃɛnjɛ], while the name of the band (and the proposed target) – IPA: [zabraɲɛno puʃɛɲɛ]. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:27, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose - use of digraph nj adds no value over nj. per sh. sr. bs. hr. en.wp usage. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:59, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose First of all, there seems to be a typo (you wrote "Zabre..." rather than "Zabra..."). But more importantly, Croatian websites don't actually use this digraph Unicode character, they invariably use n + j. Go to http://www.alexa.com/topsites/countries/HR to see any of the top Croatian websites and verify for yourself. You will also surely have noticed that the Croatian Wikipedia article hr:Zabranjeno Pušenje does not use the digraph Unicode character either. It's not clear why Unicode includes this character; perhaps it is simply to permit a one-to-one character mapping between Latin and Cyrillic (i.e., the Serbian Cyrillic letter њ), or perhaps it can be used in specialized applications like online crossword puzzles (where lj and nj fit within a single square). — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 05:03, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
    • I fixed the typo in proposal, thanks. Legacy software (specifically older versions of Internet Explorer) failed to render these glyphs, so they are generally avoided or converted to separate glyphs on display. Wikipedia has different tradition of dealing with such issues. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 08:53, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
      But the point remains, this Unicode character is not in actual use, at least not in any ordinary texts. It's not a display issue. When the Unicode standard was drawn up, it was desired to have a reversible one-to-one mapping between Unicode and each of the many legacy 8-bit character sets, and a lot of odds and ends found their way into the Unicode character set in this way, including ligatures for "ff", "fi", "fl", "ffi", "ffl" (starting at U+FB00), but those aren't used in ordinary English text or English Wikipedia article titles. The fact that the Croatian Wikipedia uses n+j exclusively, as do other Croatian websites both major and minor, should give you pause. It is hard to think of any website where the digraph nj character is actually used. It might perhaps be useful internally in some application that needs to reversibly map Latin to Cyrillic and back. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 10:03, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
      I wouldn't insist on that, actually. The most common practice in computing (at least for Indo-European languages) is to provide one-to-one mapping of letters to displayed characters. A bunch of historical reasons led to the breach of this principle, including the fact that before Unicode 1.1 no character set included code points for these letters (which never were and are not ligatures) mainly due to the restrictions, imposed by 8-bit character sizes and bi-alphabetic nature of the language. Though I came across U+01C4 – U+01CC letters in the wild, I see the widespread use of "n+j" and friends as a compatibility and inertia trait. BTW, the code points for these letters also serve purposes of fixing the collation order (which is severely broken with "n+j"), pattern matching, string length measuring and (the last but not the least) restoring the one-to-one mapping of letters to characters. Also note, that compatibility characters are specifically labeled so in Unicode standard, while these are not. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:24, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. It is not wrong to not use the digraph characters, and it is misguided to think that they are necessary. First: according to Unicode, digraphs should be represented by their constituents. The Croatian digraphs were “only encoded in Unicode because of votes on the negative ballot on the first version of ISO/IEC 10646” ([3]). Second: contrary to what you claim, Unicode does not always label its compatibility characters; and these digraphs do have compatibility decompositions. Third: collation is not broken with ⟨n⟩ + ⟨j⟩; use contractions. For applications that need to reversibly map Latin to Cyrillic, use ⟨n⟩ + ⟨j⟩ for ⟨њ⟩ and ⟨n⟩ + U+034F ͏ combining grapheme joiner + ⟨j⟩ for ⟨нј⟩. Gorobay (talk) 21:30, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
    You mean "(n)+(j) for (нј)" and "⟨n⟩ + U+034F ͏ combining grapheme joiner + ⟨j⟩" for (њ), don't you? Overall I see no reason to prefer U+034F ͏ combining grapheme joiner over specific Unicode code points. Can you cite Unicode standard on such preference? FWIW, UNIX-like systems include two groups of keyboard layouts for Yugoslavian standard keyboard: ordinary and Unicode, with the latter featuring U+01C4 – U+O1CC on respective keys. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:50, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
    Confusingly, the CGJ is used to split digraphs. The Unicode FAQ on digraphs explains why new digraphs are not to be encoded. The Croatian digraphs were encoded, but they are seldom used, they are unnecessary, and they run counter to general Unicode policy.
    Let me put it another way: Croatian is not special. There are countless languages that use digraphs exactly as Croatian does. They get along fine without distinctly-encoded digraphs, and so can Croatian. Gorobay (talk) 11:53, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
    I got your idea. Pretty convincing, though it gives me more questions then answers. Could you please recommend me a starting point to investigate the issue further? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:29, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
    I have answered on your talk page so as not to derail the discussion here. Gorobay (talk) 02:10, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Nobody uses the UTF-8 digraph for lj and nj; they just didn't catch on, anywhere, and nobody actually cares for that technicality - except perhaps a handful of programmers of database sorting routines, and even they acknowledge the reality of having to handle it like this. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 10:02, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
    • I wouldn't judge on whether they coughed on or not, as they only recently became available to end users (and yet no IM became established). Though I admit that nearly nobody cares about technical consistency of electronic texts. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 11:18, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
      • It's not actually available to end-users - the South Slavic Latin keyboard layouts don't include the two separate keys. Which is really treated as a non-issue because I don't believe old-school typewriters ever did that, either. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:15, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
        • There are several ways to enter these chars on Unix-like systems ("Unicode" flavors of "rs" xkb layouts and its aliases ("ba", "hr", "me"), "us(hbs)" layout, XCompose, etc.) and installable Windows layouts. Probably there is something for Macs. Typewriters didn't include these characters (there is no big difference between "nj" and "nj" when there is no need to process text. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:06, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
          • I regularly use the hr layout on Linux and it makes absolutely no difference to my typing of nj - the software layout can't help me much other than to introduce a combination of keys to achieve something that is still by a magnitude more complicated than simply typing nj to get the exact same result as far as humans are concerned, and a very tiny minority of humans actually care for later machine parsing. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:54, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment. I'd welcome a move from Zabranjeno Pušenje to Zabranjeno pušenje (caps!). The rationale would be identical to the one offered here: no established usage in English, and the current title goes against the orthography and prevalent usage in Serbo-Croatian. GregorB (talk) 09:24, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
    • At least there site spells both first letters uppercase. The IRL mentions I've seen are also stick with this spelling. Effectively I never seen it written as "Zabranjeno pušenje". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:06, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
      • I'm not surprised - same with e.g. Parni Valjak and their official page. However, in sources with expert proofreading, such as daily newspapers and magazines, it's almost exclusively "Zabranjeno pušenje" and "Parni valjak", as neither pušenje nor valjak are proper nouns. GregorB (talk) 11:58, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
        • I didn't pay attention to it before, but the sources (I was planning to use for this article's rewrite) indeed name it "Zabranjeno pušenje". As I get it, per MOS:CAPS we should follow the convention of the native language, which means that the proper name of the article would be Zabranjeno pušenje (or Zabranjeno pušenje according to my initial statement). — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 13:06, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.