Talk:Zakaria Zubeidi

Arna Mer

Is it Arna Mer or Orna Mer? She was my neighbour and I clearly remember that her name was Orna. (Drouch 21:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC))

Her name is given as Arna in Arna's Children and in the external link in that article. - Fayenatic (talk) 20:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

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Blacklisted Links Found on Zakaria Zubeidi

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Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade terrorist designation/Zakaria Zubeidi article

Noted you flagged the terrorist designation of the Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade as "POV" despite the multiple international references citing as much. The terrorist designation by multiple countries is also stated on the Wikipedia page specific to the group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Martyrs%27_Brigades). This article both discusses the group's multiple terrorist attacks, its terrorist designation by multiple countries, and notes Zakaria Zubeidi's involvement as a local commander. The article is well-referenced. Providing the link to Wikipedia's NPOV policy here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view.

If you still feel the designation meets criteria for "point of view" despite the citations happy to discuss further.AVR2012 (talk) 04:18, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@AVR2012: The US, EU and Canada are not equivalent to the international community. Terrorist is often a loaded term and we all know the mantra "one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter". Most Palestinians, I would imagine, do not consider him a terrorist. While it may be acceptable to note in the article that X countries view him or his group as a terrorist outfit, it is unbalanced and undue to emphasize this in the first sentence of the article. The balanced version would call simply him something along the lines of "the commander of the Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a militant group, in Jenin" or some other neutral phrasing. Al Ameer (talk) 04:32, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

A group that has a documented history of committing terror attacks against innocent civilians is designated as a terrorist group (see Al Qaeda, ISIS, Hamas, Boko Haram, Hezbollah, Al Aqsa Brigade, etc). By definition a militant group engages other militant groups (not civilians). That is the distinction. The Al Aqsa Brigade carries the terrorist designation given its long history of suicide bombings and murders aimed at civilian, not military, targets. Whether or not one group or another likes the designation is irrelevant. The section has been accommodated to include the terrorist designation and I will add the appropriate citations.AVR2012 (talk) 08:21, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

The place for exhaustive sourcing on the precise designation of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades is on the dedicated article for that organisation. But please be aware that all of these designations are from before 2007, when the group was essentially undesignated under an amnesty deal approved of by Israel, which delisted the organisation's former members from its wanted lists. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:57, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

“Exhaustive sourcing” is the bedrock of Wikipedia. The group’s terrorist status has not been changed by the countries in question. I’m any event, I’m cool with the current paragraph as it appears. AVR2012 (talk) 13:16, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Agree, this designation is relevant. 11Fox11 (talk) 08:26, 15 September 2021 (UTC) strike sock

Beit She'an

particularly in relation to a 2002 attack that killed 6 people.

As my edit summary noted, per WP:MOS leads summarize and there is no mention of Zubeidi's involvement in that attack in the article, hence it is improper here. The Beit She'an article does not mention him either. The Haaretz piece isn't enough. One requires sources that show Zubeidi at that time was implicated, accused, put on trial or otherwise as a suspected mastermind of that incident, otherwise it is just guilt by association, and this is a BPL issue that requires strong sourcing. So, if official indictments exist for the period after 2002 directly indicting him, they should first of all be added to the relevant section of his bio. Then, whether a summary can go into the lead or not may be justified.Nishidani (talk) 17:22, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

If you think it doesn't belong to the lead you should have moved to the body and not remove it altogether --Shrike (talk) 17:31, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

When in the last decade of numerous lead reverts have you practiced what you now preach?Nishidani (talk) 19:43, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I've added a source that directly names him as responsible for the attack, and also added this to the article body as well as to the article both the attack, addressing both issues. Inf-in MD (talk) 19:11, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

If the reference is Jack Khoury's article please cite the exact words identifying Zubeidi as the person behind the Likud attack. All I can see is that you are inferring something from the subtitle to his name, and there is no explicit connection. For a BPL article you need strong sources indicating that at the time or in the investigations that followed, he was identified (not claimed) to be the mastermind. Even your inference refers to a claim, since there is, so far, no evidence given.Nishidani (talk) 19:52, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

The second sentence is "Zubeidi was behind the 2002 attack in the Likud branch in Beit She’an, in which six people were killed – as well as other cases. " Inf-in MD (talk) 19:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Your link is this by Jack Khoury. No such phrasing exists on that page. Nishidani (talk) 20:22, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Zubeidi is the most infamous of the six. A former commander of Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, he was behind the 2002 attack at a Likud party branch in Beit She’an in which six people were killed, among other attacks[1] --Shrike (talk) 20:38, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Of course. Inf-in MD's mistake was to cite Khoury and not the Breiner article under it. But now that you realize the mistake and fix his misimpression, the real problem emerges. The editor wrote in wiki's voice

as he was behind a 2002 terrorist attack that killed 6 people in Beit She'an

That turns out to be Shin Bet claim, repeated in sources in 2021. Inf-in MD argued for weeks that at the FLLP article, details that in his book were just claims were being written up in wiki's neutral voice. You Shrike backed him up. We should never write a claim as though it were a fact. You were both wrong re the prose of that article, but here Inf-in MD did precisely that, i.e., assert a claim as a fact. If you read the sources for the period in question , we are told this:

When I try to confirm with Israeli authorities the charges Zubeidi is wanted on, I am stonewalled. I am instructed to trawl through government records of 135 suicide and other bombing and shooting attacks carried out in Israel since September 2000 to see how many the al-Aqsa brigades have claimed responsibility for. Total: 20. . .Exactly what he has and has not been involved in should be a matter for the courts to decide. According to Israeli sources, at least six children have been killed and many more injured in suicide attacks for which al-Aqsa have claimed responsibility. Yet it will almost definitely never come to a court appearance.

That is Toomey writing in 2006, four years after the notorious Beit She'an terrorist episode. Even other biographical sources we used for that period never mention this connection. Why? Did they miss something we only woke up to in 2021?

This is a WP:BLP article, and has stringent rules about the inclusion of claims (for no evidence is in the public record, only repeated journalistic assertions in 2021 that he perpetrated the Beit She'an attack. Unless you can come up with evidence that this is not just one more Shin Bet viewpoint, but something ascertained in a trial, it remains just a recent meme for the sources on our page down to at least 2008 make no mention of this suspicion, as far as I can see. Indeed they state I.e. Toomey, that the Shin Beit stonewalled and refused to provide any details. Nishidani (talk) 20:48, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what you're looking at, but this link - https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-these-are-the-palestinian-jailbreakers-that-have-put-israel-on-red-alert-1.10186684 has, below its first paragraph of text, six info-boxes, one for each fugitive. The first of these boxes is for Zubeidi, and it second sentence reads "Zubeidi was behind the 2002 attack in the Likud branch in Beit She’an, in which six people were killed", exactly as I have written above. Inf-in MD (talk) 20:59, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

You liked to Jack Khoury's article. You screwed up, claiming Khoury wrote what is only evidenced in an article linked below it. In any case, that is not the problem. So address the issue I outlined above. Nishidani (talk) 21:04, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I linked to Jack Khoury's article (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-these-are-the-palestinian-jailbreakers-that-have-put-israel-on-red-alert-1.10186684) which has the EXACT quote I provided above. It is one URL, one article. Don't blame me for your inability to read.Inf-in MD (talk) 21:11, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

You liked to Jack Khoury's article which reads in its entirety.

One buried a body in a cistern, another masterminded an attack on a Likud HQ. The six Palestinian militants who are on the run from Israeli authorities The six prisoners currently at large after escaping Gilboa prison overnight are Zakaria Zubeidi, Iham Kamamji, Monadal Infiat, Yakub Kadari and cousins Mahmoud and Mohammed Aradeh. The IDF, Shin Bet and police are holding a large scale search for them. Extensive military forces have set up roadblocks in the West Bank in an attempt to prevent them from fleeing to Jordan. Jack Khoury, These Are the Palestinian Jailbreakers That Have Put Israel on Red Alert Sep 06, 2021 2:07 PMNishidani (talk) 21:14, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Nope. File:Jack_Khoury_article_about_Zubeidi.png Inf-in MD (talk) 21:22, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Nope. A BLP article cannot accept an inbox note of that kind, which does not form part of Khouri's article, especially when the uploaded content is marked: You cannot accuse a person of a crime on the strength of a thumbnail sketch in that so called inbox, which, by the way, never appears on the page as I view the link.

This file is unlicensed for use on Wikipedia and allowed only under a claim of fair use per Wikipedia:Non-free content, but it is not used in any articles. Unless some reason to retain it is given, the file will be deleted after Thursday, 23 September 2021. Please remove this template if a reason for keeping this image has been provided, or it is still used in articles.Nishidani (talk) 07:42, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

The info box IS part and parcel of Khouri's article. It is one URL, written by one author. Like I said, I have no idea what you are looking at, which is why I uploaded the screenshot. Now that you've seen it, as well as anyone else involved in this debate who can see you making stuff up, the file can be removed. Inf-in MD (talk) 11:39, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

An in fobox is not part and parcel of an article signed by Khoury or anyone else, and certainly not valid for violating a core principle of BLP. I've checked that link several times, and, on my computer, no image of the kind you give for the I nfobox appears. The article I see is the substance I quoted above. This may be a fault of my computer, and since you provided a snapshot of what you see, I trust that is there, for you and perhaps others. But not for everyone. This is, again, irrelevant, since as I have been asking for some time, you, Shrike and anyone else here are persisting in a BLP violation if you retain text attributing to Zubeidi a crime and if you cannot come up with any RS evidence that he has been convicted of that crime. The onus is on you, and the others.Nishidani (talk) 12:25, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

WP:BLP violation, repeated here since ignored and buried in the second above

as he was behind a 2002 terrorist attack that killed 6 people in Beit She'an

That turns out to be a Shin Bet claim, repeated in sources in 2021. Inf-in MD argued for weeks that at the FLLP article, details that in his book were just claims were being written up in wiki's neutral voice. You Shrike backed him up. We should never write a claim as though it were a fact. You were both wrong re the prose of that article, but here Inf-in MD did precisely that, i.e., assert a claim as a fact. If you read the sources for the period in question , we are told this:

When I try to confirm with Israeli authorities the charges Zubeidi is wanted on, I am stonewalled. I am instructed to trawl through government records of 135 suicide and other bombing and shooting attacks carried out in Israel since September 2000 to see how many the al-Aqsa brigades have claimed responsibility for. Total: 20. . .Exactly what he has and has not been involved in should be a matter for the courts to decide. According to Israeli sources, at least six children have been killed and many more injured in suicide attacks for which al-Aqsa have claimed responsibility. Yet it will almost definitely never come to a court appearance.

That is Toomey writing in 2006, four years after the notorious Beit She'an terrorist episode. Even other biographical sources we used for that period never mention this connection. Why? Did they miss something we only woke up to in 2021?

This is a WP:BLP article, and has stringent rules about the inclusion of claims (for no evidence is in the public record, only repeated journalistic assertions in 2021 that he perpetrated the Beit She'an attack. Unless you can come up with evidence that this is not just one more Shin Bet viewpoint, but something ascertained in a trial, it remains just a recent meme for the sources on our page down to at least 2008 make no mention of this suspicion, as far as I can see. Indeed they state I.e. Toomey, that the Shin Bet stonewalled and refused to provide any details. Nishidani (talk) 07:48, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm surprised that WP:BLPCRIME has not been invoked here, as it is a policy that must be obeyed. We can say in Wikipedia's voice that he is guilty of a crime if a court has found him guilty, and not otherwise. It doesn't matter how many journalists believe the accusations against him. However, he is a public figure so it is permissible to report charges provided they are reported as charges and not as facts. Zero^talk 11:42, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

we can discuss alternative phrasing, that say he was suspected of being the planner, or accused by Israel of being the planner, once we move beyond the childish attempts to claim that a newspaper article which clearly says he was behind the attack doesn't actually say that. Inf-in MD (talk) 11:55, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Your edit and that of Shrike are in violation of WP:BLP. 'A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction.' If you can't get rock hard evidence of a conviction for Beit She'an, you can't state as you both had, that he is the perpetrator. Indeed, you cannot rewrite the sources to state he is suspected of that crime, unless you dig up a RS which states that the prosecution holds him responsible. So do some work, otherwise it must be removed.Nishidani (talk) 12:01, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Are you ready to concede that as I wrote on 19:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC), the Khouri article clearly says is "Zubeidi was behind the 2002 attack in the Likud branch in Beit She’an, in which six people were killed – as well as other cases. " ? Inf-in MD (talk) 12:06, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I cited the full text of Khouri's article as it comes up for me. I can't see what you can evidently. The point however is that you are now proposing we 'discuss alternative phrasing' using a source or two that state he was a perpetrator, in order to rephrase it as 'he is suspected of being the perpetrator', when there is no source for the latter. In other words, you first violated WP:BLP, and now you want to hustle me into W P:OR, citing sources but rephrasing them to belie what they clearly assert. A double abuse of standard wiki procedures.Nishidani (talk) 12:12, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

There are actually sources stating he was serving a sentence for that ("a sentence for his supervision of a terrorist attack in 2002 in the city of Beit Shean that killed six." - https://www.jta.org/2021/09/09/israel/6-palestinian-terrorists-use-crawl-space-to-escape-maximum-security-israeli-prison. ) but I am willing to entertain alternate phrasing, provided you stop your combative behavior and practice some humility. It wasn't me who " screwed up" as you claimed - it was you. Either because of carelessness or some mysterious technical issues, you could not read what was plainly there.

In the interest of moving forward here: We can change the sentence from "was on Israel's most-wanted list for several years, as he was behind a 2002 terrorist attack that killed 6 people in Beit She'an.[5]" to "was on Israel's most-wanted list for several years, as he was suspected of being behind a 2002 terrorist attack that killed 6 people in Beit She'an." or "was on Israel's most-wanted list for several years, as he was suspected of planning a 2002 terrorist attack that killed 6 people in Beit She'an." Inf-in MD (talk) 12:24, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Give the page a source for '"was on Israel's most-wanted list for several years, as he was suspected of being behind a 2002 terrorist attack that killed 6 people in Beit She'an.' Editors cannot rewrite sources that do not state what editors want to write. As it stands, the text must be removed. If you cannot come up with a source for 'suspected', then the point you and the others claim is a fact cannot stand in the lead or elsewhere. The part bolded, since it is in the past tense, is problematical. That would mean he was suspected (but no longer is) in straightforward English grammar. Nishidani (talk) 12:28, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

You know what, we'll just use the JTA source, linked above, to say he was serving a sentence for supervising that mass murder. Inf-in MD (talk) 12:41, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Nope. Until evidence is forthcoming that backs Lipshiz's extraordinary claim, that he served a sentence in an Israeli gaol for that episode (there is no evidence he ever served time in an Israeli jail, from 2002, when the attack occurred, until 2019, when according to the Times of Israel he was arrested on charges regarding acts between 2003 and 2019. The page documents where he spent the years from 2002 to 2019 quite precisely: no mention of a sentence or time spent in an Israeli jail.Nishidani (talk) 15:46, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

• Besides a zillion sources saying he was behind it, Zubeidi himself took responsibility for the Beit She'an in a 2005 interview:[2]. 11Fox11 (talk) 16:14, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
• "He is suspected..." or "accused by Israel" is the appropriate language, per WP:BLPCRIME. --K.e.coffman (talk) 16:15, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Israeli

please change ((Israeli)) to ((Israel))i 98.239.227.65 (talk) 14:48, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: No reason not to link to a perfectly fine redirect. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:07, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

There are actually two good reason to do this - the first is that his targets were people, the second is that otherwise the link to Israel is repeated. Consider it done. Inf-in MD (talk) 20:49, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

False info in the lead

The lead currently contains false information that misrepresents its source, regarding Zubeidi's amnesty. The cited source says "[Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades] members have pledged to put away their guns and serve in the official security forces", but the lead misrepresents this and falsely claims "[Zubeidi] handed over his weapons to the Palestinian National Authority as part of an Israeli amnesty in 2007", which is not in the source, and as it turns out, false. A later source shows he never followed through on this pledge: "But he never surrendered his weapons to the Palestinian Authority, saying even then that he did not trust the amnesty agreement and feared for his life." [3] Inf-in MD (talk) 21:04, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

As the deleted (now restored) npr source makes clear, he did not hand over his weapons, but he did 'put them away', which is in fact consistent with the pledge, which makes no mention of handing them over. Regardless, after three months of non-violence, his abidance with whatever the precise terms of the amnesty were was clearly accepted, as he was pardoned. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:55, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

In the sources provided, there is no indication that he ever agreed to hand over his weapons to the PA. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:58, 25 September 2021 (UTC)