Talk:Zaza people

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The ridiculous amount of references in the lede[edit]

The lede of this article is a classic example of citation overkill, and leads me to question the validity of the statements rather than enforcing my trust in them. What is the reason for this? Ithinkicahn (talk) 02:14, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

  • "leads me to" seems a bit weasely to me. Please name individual citations that you have a problem with. Gregkaye (talk) 10:06, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Ithinkicahn Take a look at the edit summaries around my last edit, and the difference between my last edit and the current state of the article[1] - there is continual nationalistic edit warring on this page about the Zaza ethnic identity. I have no idea at the moment if the sources even say what the text says. Dougweller (talk) 10:51, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Each user has changed article as they want, i reverted to version of 5 January. I hope, the users can disscuss here and then we can have a better article. Thanks--Gomada (talk) 16:27, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Please do not do that. You do not WP:OWN this article, and it's inappropriate to mass-revert multiple editors' work. If you have a dispute about specific edits made, then perhaps revert those specific changes (not everything done by the editor that made the change you object to). Given how contentious this article is, and everything in it being subject to WP:ARBAA2, it's better to raise disputes on the talk page and flag them (e.g. with {{citation needed}} or some other inline cleanup or dispute template), rather than revert.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  08:43, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
@SMcCandlish: He did it, see [2]. I missed it. Dougweller (talk) 11:32, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Derp. Well, I'm disinclined to be a hypocrite and revert the revert; I'm sure the article will lurch along, back and forth, and hopefully actually incrementally improving despite that setback. I am liable to ask for some WP:AE people to watchlist this page, because there's an awful lot of partisan editwarring and POV-pushing going on here. Someone who knows this material better may want to look through the mass-revert and see what what deleted that has sources and isn't WP:ADVOCACY and restore those parts, piecemeal.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  10:28, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Request to change name[edit]

Zazaki Zaza peopleZaza Kurds – The article keeps getting vandalised by people that claim Zazakis aren't Kurds. Therefore I propose that the name of the article should be changed to Zaza Kurds. --Relisted. DrKiernan (talk) 19:25, 28 August 2014 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 13:41, 20 August 2014 (UTC) --Ahmetyal (talk) 22:45, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

  • Note Zazaki is a redirect page to Zazaki language. The Zazaki page has had two edits and has not been vandalised. Would appreciate clarification of the request idea from Ahmetyal. What a waste of time. TY Dougweller for clearing confusion.
Oppose Gregkaye (talk) 14:12, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I would support Zaza (Kurdish people), Zaza Kurds sounds like a product of cheese making. Am also aware of WP:PRECISION but sympathise with the identity issue. Gregkaye (talk) 09:14, 18 August 2014 (UTC) apologies for the tongue in cheek comment}}
  • First, get the spelling correct; the name has diacritics, and should be Zāzā. I retract that; there doesn't seem to be enough support for this, upon further checking. Second, (to respond to User:Gregkaye, above), no one would confuse them but people who can't spell curd and have never heard of the Kurds, which is a tiny percentage of readers for whom we would never dumb the encyclopedia down. Per WP:AT policy, we don't use parenthetic disambiguation if we can avoid it. So, support Zāzā Kurds or Zāzā people Support Zaza people rename to Zaza Kurds, or retaining Zaza people about equally, and Zazaki continuing to go to the language, but not Gregkaye's "Zaza (Kurdish people)" version (even with diacritics). We wouldn't use that anyway, unless "Zaza (people)" was ambiguous; parenthetical disambiguations are always compressed to pretty much as short as possible, because they're already unnatural and awkward.

    Back to OP: Note that "people keep vandalizing it" (per the nominator) isn't a rename rationale. It's sourced excessively well in the article that the Zāzā "are" (i.e., self-identify, in the main) as Kurds. I think that Zāzā people Zaza people is actually fine, under a WP:COMMONNAME analysis, as most sources refer to them as the Zāzā (rarely I think, in English), Zaza, or by one of their other names, without appending "Kurds" after it. So, "Zāzā [or Zaza] Kurds" isn't any sort of official name, rather it would be a natural (non-parenthetical) disambiguation for WP's own reasons. A disambiguation is needed because the Zazaki language is also often called simply Zaza (or Zāzā). So the question is whether Zāzā Kurds or Zāzā people Zaza Kurds or Zaza people is a better disambiguation. the Kurds version has both brevity and specificity going for it, while the people version is a more typical name for this sort of article.

    PS: I don't see any evidence that majority of the sources, even in English, append a "-s" to the end of the ethnonym, so the informal "Zazas" is out of the question, except as a self-description among the Zāzā diaspora in places where they speak English, French, Spanish or some other language that uses -s plurals and in which Zazas is actually attested at all. I've cleaned up such confusion in the article itself, using Zāzā Zaza for the people and Zazaki for the language (I'm not certain but that may really need to be Zāzāki or Zāzaki, but someone else can look that up).  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  09:02, 24 August 2014 (UTC) Revised.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  10:47, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

SMcCandlish. I generally support the use of non standard Latin scripts whereever they are relevant so the input on the use of "Zāzā" is very welcome. If evidence of such use can be found in a government website or similar then WP:OFFICIAL NAME may apply. However, WP:COMMONNAME still states: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. On Google "Zaza Kurds" gets "About 24,400 results" whereas "Zāzā Kurds" gets "No results found for "Zāzā Kurds"". "Zaza people" gets "About 7,310 results" while "Zāzā people" gets: "1 result" We also need to see that "Zazaki" has a substantially different meaning or usage to "Zaza people". If the terms are merely synonymous then a change may do little to solve the stated problem. I will be happy to withdraw my Zaza (Kurdish people) or Zāzā (Kurdish people) suggestion if this can be qualified. Gregkaye (talk) 09:46, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
"Zazaki" gets: "About 969,000 results" but this also relates to the language. Gregkaye (talk) 09:53, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm going to revert application of Zāzā throughout the article, because the diacritics don't seem well enough supported offline as actually being in use; my bad. Zazaki does indeed seem to have a substantially different meaning or usage; it's an adjective, and when reruprposed as a noun it refers to the language. It could also be used rather archaically to refer to an individual, in the form "She is a Zazaki", in the same was one may still encounter "He is a Chinese" (i.e. adjectival form used as noun after indefinite object). A problem for the Zaza Kurds case is that it's still not the most common name, but if Zaza people is too vague or otherwise problematic that could be reason enough to buck the commonest name.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  10:47, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Much appreciated SMcCandlish. Lacking additional information I:
Support a change from Zazaki to either Zaza people, Zaza (people) or Zaza (Kurdish people) - but I'm British, what do I know? Gregkaye (talk) 12:09, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Confused Zazaki is obviously not the name of this article. So why are people suggesting that it be moved from that name to the current name> User:Gregkaye?User:SMcCandlish, when was this page moved other than an earlier move to [zaza Kurds]] in 2006 which was shortly after that turned into a redirect back to this name? Dougweller (talk) 13:38, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Confused too: I saw this Rm to move the article from Zazaki to Zaza Kurds but it was at Zaza people so it seemed it must have moved. I thought I checked, but I have 47 windows open... I obviously erred. So, I don't know what's going on either, but the gist of actual discussion is that some people want the article on the Zaza people to be at Zaza people where it is now, others suggest Zaza Kurds, others Zaza (people), Zaza (Kurdish people).  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  13:57, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Writing Zazaki instead of Zaza was my fault. --Ahmetyal (talk) 19:51, 26 August 2014 (UTC)