Talk:Zeitun rebellion (1895–96)

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Military history: Ottoman B‑class

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Be realistic[edit]

"Turkish army lost and 20,000 soldiers were killed, while the Armenians only lost 150 fedayeen". Could we not have some accurate, neutral accounts forthis article, and not this sort of fantasy? Meowy 22:32, 7 November 2009 (UTC) in my edit that was deleted the ottoman gov resources say the 15000 armenian militias killed only 10 turkish soldiers, and dispersed after their massacring of turkish population. they were not from the area, and the armenian civilians were against the armenian militia who came from far away. It is impossible that a great empire ottoman which has great resouces at the time will fail to devour those miliyia in the heart land of the turks, when the turkish army came the armenian militia were long goneViibird (talk) 10:59, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

Takabeg (talk) 12:14, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is plain to see that many scholarly sources support the term Zeitun Rebellion as it was within the terretory of the Ottoman Empire.Tugrulirmak (talk) 21:14, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Zeitun rebellion is common name on google books. But about you claim: it was within the terretory of the Ottoman Empire, we cannot know reasons of naming. Because sources don't refer to reasons. Takabeg (talk) 23:40, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We do not need to know, this is my assumption, we can dismiss my assumption. What we can not dismiss is the weight of scholarly items that releate to the event as a Rebellion.Tugrulirmak (talk) 10:07, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Favonian (talk) 08:37, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Zeitun Resistance (1895) → Zeitun Rebellion (1895–1896) – per WP:COMMONNAME

First of all, it's clear that the Zeitun Resistance (and Zeitoun Resistnace, Resistance of Zeitun, Resistance at Zeitun etc. "Zeitun Resistance" -Llc 0, "Resistance of Zeitun" -Llc 4, "Resistance of Zeitoun" -Llc 1, "Resistance at Zeitun" -Llc 2) is not common name of this rebellion/resistance. And this name is based on the POV of "Armenians of Zeitun". At the same time, Zeitun Rebellion (and Rebellion of Zeitun, Rebellion at Zeitun) is based on the POV of the "government of the Ottoman Empire". Unfortunately, we cannot improve WP:POVTITLE for this article. However, it is clear that Zeitun Rebellion is more common name. In addition, because this rebellion/resistance continued till 1896, and to distinguish from other Zeitun (Zeitoun) rebellions/resistances, we'd better add (1895–1896) to this title. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 03:32, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support Tugrulirmak (talk) 07:47, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The term rebellion is used for insurgents, fighting against an existing system. Therefore, rebellion is a politically correct way of describing the events. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.95.79 (talk) 20:57, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Ottoman position[edit]

I think it goes without question to present all the sides of a story – provided that they represent legitimate viewpoints and are found in reliable sources. The Armenians of Zeitun had a tradition of taking up arms to defend themselves against the encroachments of Kurdish brigands and venal Ottoman officials. More often than not (and as reflected in this article), once the Armenians did resist, local authorities would send word to the capital that the Armenians were once again in insurrection. It became a tried and true method of denying any legitimacy to an Armenian uprising.

As regards the most recent edits, the sentences added by Viibird 1) make reference to uprisings and atrocities in Q(K)onya and Malatya, two localities faraway from isolated Zeitun and are otherwise uncorroborated in any other source; 2) it talks about the Armenian leader of Zeitun, Aghasi, finding refuge in Constantinople, the capital, also faraway from the place in question; 3) the sources are so poor in nature so as to discount them from being reliable material for editors to consult.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:12, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have provided 2 published references for the zeitoun rebelion. one book from field investigation made in 1990 authenticated by Ottoman government facimiles in the book. the documents with 3000 photos of turkish civilians killed are available on line. The truth was armenians did ethnic cleansing of 3.5 million turks with the help of tzarist russian army is undisputable especially with 3000 photos of dead women and children( [1]) Encyclopedia Britanica count armenians at 1.1 in 1911. The armenian refugees to syria counted at 1.3 million, so where is the genocide.??? also where are the photos of dead armenian civilians??? not even one authentic photo exist! they do not exist, because they never happened The armenians are responsible for the massacres at Zeitoun at truth should be told. it must be hard on any government to show photos of their massacred women and children, and show the inhumane atrocities (unspeakable, should not be told) but because armenians excelled in lies the truth should be told. Zeitoun is in the heart land of turks central anatolia. the name of the village is arabic. armenian militia killed only 10 soldiers in a nearby barrak and then went on a rampage kinlling innocent civilians. they dispersed after the masacre before the ottoman army came to the area.

My addition to the page was delted twice. Marshal Bagramyan is responsible for the three strikes or two strikes waring edit since i did not delete his work or any edit in the article even though they were lies. Viibird (talk) 06:27, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I can tell you that coming to this article with that attitude won't win you many sympathizers. This is not some myth that you believe you are on a mission to debunk. We have enough primary and secondary source material to demonstrate that events transpired in the way they are given here. Saying "armenians [sic] excelled in lies" is the best way to bring discredit to your argument. And what difference does it make where Zeitun is located or what the etymology of its name is? One is hard put to assume good faith when reading such comments.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:32, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have references for the encyclopedia britanica and the conclusion from referencd book, you could easily find that by googling.http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/circassian.htm, my edit was deleted unjustly based on the deleter claim that resources un trrustful and again he deleted beased on reason: resources contradict the armenian resources (obviously all references in the article made by random armenian persons ( all the alleged resources of alledged armenian is like: because some unknwon armenians said so.) However my resources are ligitimate Ottoman empire documents of the highest authority backed with 3000 photos of massacred turkish muslims women and children (mostly) well documented. some of these photos like the one i posted in the article talk page were used by armenians several places even the frensh media, still in the website of australian Hunchak party, you can find that by googling the photo [2] and finding the web site of fraud. many of the photos armenians post are actually of turk muslims massacred by the armenians.Viibird (talk) 10:47, 13 November 2013 (UTC) I am a friend of both turks and armenians, and armenians believe the Hay people ( a people who were brought by alexander the great from amcedonia to suppress the armenians but later became paraya, conspired to uproot the armenians who were happy in the ottoman empire while the hay were not happy. This explains why armenians in the diaspora dont dare visit or settle in current day armenia which the russians settled the hay people in as a reward for services.Viibird (talk) 10:53, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

None of which is really relevant here. This article is about an event that took place in 1895-96 and most of the sources we have at disposal confirm that the Armenians of Zeitun took up arms for self-defense, not so that they could initiate the wanton slaughter of civilians. If you want to talk about Armenian history, I'd be happy to do so on my talk page or elsewhere, but not on this page. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:21, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Primary sources on government intentions[edit]

Are there any accounts on Ottoman agression in Zeitung before 1895 that they massively took up arms? For a massive rebellion like this, a massive agression needs to have occurred for it to be called 'self-defense'.

What are the primary sources for the intentions of the Zeitung government?--82.75.32.124 (talk) 18:06, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]