Talk:Zine El Abidine Ben Ali
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Zine El Abidine Ben Ali article.|
|A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day... section on November 7, 2005, November 7, 2006, November 7, 2007, November 7, 2008, and November 7, 2012.|
|A news item involving Zine El Abidine Ben Ali was featured on Wikipedia's main page in the In the news section on 29 January 2011.|
|A news item involving Zine El Abidine Ben Ali was featured on Wikipedia's main page in the In the news section on 20 June 2011.|
|This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard. If you are connected to one of the subjects of this article and need help, please see this page.|
|This page is about an active politician who is running for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy. Because of this, this article is at increased risk of biased editing, talk-page trolling, and simple vandalism.|
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
- 1 POV in edits
- 2 Banning of headscarves...
- 3 Potential bias in recent edits
- 4 Net worth 5 billion?
- 5 NPOV violations
- 6 Citations needed
- 7 Religion
- 8 Economist
- 9 On the constitutional golpe of 1987
- 10 Former president?
- 11 Page protection
- 12 Missing central bank gold
- 13 Death
- 14 Partial page
- 15 Jasmine Revolution
POV in edits
I did some slight NPOV, it appeared to me that this article is a little against Ben Ali. In a sentence or two I added something like: say human rights organizations. Skyscrap27 | Talk to me, people! 06:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Citations should be added for reports of death, abduction, and political prisoners. Further, there appears to be one line out of place in the first paragraph on appointments, "Many disappearances deaths and torture cases were reported to the human rights organisations". This is repeated later in the Works as President section, last paragraph. ~~
Banning of headscarves...
Hi, re the "supression of Muslim dress" section
not claiming to be an expert on Tunisia, but after a 10 days in the country, it doesn't seem that the crackdown on headscarves in public is anything that is still undertaken. The split between women wearing them and not is about 50/50, I'd say. It might be worth rechecking this - Ben Ali appears to be very much against it, and he might have had a go last year, but there are way too many women wearing scarves for this to be an actively enforced policy.
Just my one thing - I hope there is an expert around who can confirm-refute this!
(btw, am complete newbie on Wikipedia, so don't bite me if I didn't follow etiquette!)
I am tunisian and even though Headscarves (hijab) is banned from schools, public administration etc.. I have never seen police (regular police, or political police) asking women to remove Hijab ON THE STREET , in my opinion it is not worth mentionning since it is not widespread. but students and women are obliged to remove hijab on schools and public administrations.
Yes, ditto to the comment above - not all women in Tunis will take the risk of harassment on the streets, the threat of not gaining employment or being refused an education. These policies in themselves which constitute threatening Muslims in a Muslim country, are a violation of rights and worth being mentioned. Note too that men whose dress is considered 'too Muslim' or who spend 'too much time' at mosques, are also subject to harassment.
Potential bias in recent edits
Net worth 5 billion?
I am no fan of the Tunisian president. However, this article is riddled with NPOV violations, namely:
...though many Tunisians believe that he never completed even a high school education. – weasel wording, no references supplied for this assertion.
...the political life of the country had deadlocked in an unending presidential succession debate and political crisis, cronyism and economic stagnation. – no citation, even though it has been requested.
Following 'calls' from members of his own political party... – the use of quote marks implies that the calls were not genuine, or were managed – but no citation is supplied to back up what amounts to an insinuation.
There has recently been a rumor that shortly after his reelection this dictator will give up his throne to his son-in-law Sakher El-Materi (married to Nesrine, his eldest daughter by Leila). El Materi's father was jailed by Bourguiba for crimes committed against the country, such as stealing government assets, and selling land he did not own. El Materi is a business man, but has no political career nor much of an education. – this entire paragraph casts serious aspersions on Sakher El-Materi, but contains no citations to back up these claims. Instead, it uses the weasel wording about rumours. Furthermore, the words "dictator" and "throne" are POV violations.
I have removed the above text as unsubstantiated and an abuse of the NPOV policy. The text should be reinserted only if ciations can be supplied, and weasel wording removed. In the last paragraph mentioned above, I can’t see how the emotive words “dictator” and “throne” can be kept in their current contexts and pass NPOV.--Iacobus (talk) 02:08, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- I brought this up about a year ago: we simply don't seem to have enough manpower to keep the various Tunisia-related articles from backsliding this way. Any help in maintaining them would be very much appreciated. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 02:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
/ There is very limited freedom of speech in Tunisia, and the regime controls the spread of information. Thus, the official view is that Ben ALi is educated, and you would be hard pressed to find anything in writing to the contrary. Previous references posted on this page were to French-language sources that have since then been cut. One reference would be Nicolas Beau's new book La Regente de Carthage, where he mentions on p. 98 that Ben Ali does not have a GED. This book also supports the beliefs that Sakher El-Materi is being primed to take increasing political power. This was also in a Le Monde article the reference to which has been cut. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MmeKarakuze (talk • contribs) 00:27, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
1) Bourgiba's deposition was "popular" and based on the Tunisian Constitution and 2) "Many Tunisians are disillusioned..." Are there sources that can back these statements up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Foreignshore (talk • contribs) 20:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
On the constitutional golpe of 1987
Looks like the Internet-based Jasmine Revolution has not yet reached the web site of the Tunisian government. The site still lists Ben Ali as president. In fact, constitutionally Mohamed Ghannouchi is only acting as president because Ben Ali is out of the country. Prime ministers do this all the time. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:59, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, we should revert to previous version until clear information are available--Dans (talk) 23:58, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- i can't find any reliable sources saying that he resigned his Presidency. Dismissing the government does not mean dismissing himself. Both
- forced to step down in the WP:LEAD, and
- subsection heading: Resignation
- seem to me to be original research. A few mainstream media news have put something like this in article titles, but without giving any concrete claim in the content of the articles. Maybe he has no realistic chance of returning as President, but it's not up to us to state that as Wikipedians. How about:
- was de facto replaced in the lead, and
- De facto loss of presidency for the subsection..
- But maybe someone else can suggest other... interim ... NPOV phrases to replace these bits of OR. Boud (talk) 00:06, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- i can't find any reliable sources saying that he resigned his Presidency. Dismissing the government does not mean dismissing himself. Both
- The hosted.ap.org article (already referenced, should be cleaned up) has "The prime minister suggested that Ben Ali had willingly handed over control, but the exact circumstances of his removal from power were unclear." and "'Under Article 56 of the Constitution that holds that in a case of temporary incapacity, the president can delegate by decree his power to the prime minister. Given the temporary incapacity of the President to carry out his duties, I take over the responsibilities temporarily of the leadership of the country at this difficult time to help restore security,' Ghannouchi said."
- Fleeing scared by a popular uprising is not the same thing as resigning. Other possible words to what i suggested above:
- fled from Tunisia
- Departure from Tunisia or Replacement by Ghannouchi ?
- Boud (talk) 00:16, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- The BBC reports, "Tunisian President Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali has stepped down after 23 years in power... [Ben Ali] dissolved his government and the country's parliament, and declared a state of emergency. Then, in a televised address on Friday afternoon, the prime minister announced that he would be taking over from President Ben Ali"Thom2002 (talk) 00:58, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- That's an example of the problem: "stepped down" is in the one-sentence abstract - what you quote first - but not in the main content. It fails WP:LEAD ;). It's "BBC:OR", i.e. not reliably fact-checked, because the author(s) of the article are not peer-reviewed like on Wikipedia. In fact, (my OR), if Ben Ali really dissolved the government, then Ghannouchi was no longer prime minister, so it was impossible for him to invoke Article 56. But that's another issue, and not RS'd. A president dissolving his government and parliament, declaring a state of emergency, is not him legally resigning (even though its an admittance of being in a pretty terrible political situation). Boud (talk) 01:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- i just pointed out to you that the BBC news media report you quoted does not have the content to back up its one-sentence abstract. We cannot go by a misleading abstract when the content says something different (more subtle). The Press put snappy headlines and abstracts to catch the attention of readers, but they know that they have to (and have more space to) be more careful in the content. In other words, so far the "news media reports" are not a source, they are a non-source for the question of resignation. (They are a source for him having de facto lost his power as President by fleeing, independently of whether or not he formally resigned.) Boud (talk) 01:54, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- I just feel that to describe the situation as de facto loss of power seems to imply that he is still the de jure president, even though there does not appear to be any sources which support that view. Similarly, it is a significant understatement to describe what has happened as Ben Ali simply departing Tunisia, which I am sure he did on a regular basis before the current extraordinary circumstances. As a compromise, may I suggest we replace that sentence in the lead with "...holding office from November 7, 1987 until he lost power on January 14, 2011"? Thom2002 (talk) 02:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- support. Go ahead, propose semi-protection (for autoconfirmed users etc.) to an admin board! Obvious vandalism with revert war, and likely intense interest for a few days. Boud (talk) 01:19, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
undone; should be redone
This page is no longer protected. It should be reprotected; I don't know how to do that or even if I have the official permission to do that. For example, the second paragraph begins, "On 14 January 2011, following a month of violent protests against his rule, he was forced to flee ... ." I am deleting the word "violent", because it is misleading and inappropriate in the context: The usual meaning of the term "violent protest" is that the protesters were violent. In this case, it was primarily security forces, according to virtually all the sources I've seen including the link provided for documentation there. DavidMCEddy (talk) 01:32, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Missing central bank gold
under the subheading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zine_El_Abidine_Ben_Ali#Family an editor has mentioned ... "Leila Trabelsi reportedly took 1.5 tonnes of gold from the central bank when she and her family fled to Jeddah, Saudi Arabia"
Over the past weekend , Mustapha Kamel Nabli, Governor of the Central Bank of Tunisia was interviewed by France24.com (unfortunately , this page contains a video of the interview , not text - http://www.france24.com/en/20110205-mustapha-kamel-nabli-davos-governor-central-bank-of-tunisia-ben-ali-trabelsi
Among other things the Governor explained was where that "missing" 1.5 tonnes of gold was : apparently Tunisia had recorded 6.8 tonnes of gold : 5.3 tonnes are at the central bank in Tunis ; and the other 1.5 tonnes are in London , in an account belonging to the central bank ... The President's family may have taken other money from the bank , but perhaps not this gold .
This wiki article , as well as the one on Zine's wife Leila Trabelsi , might benefit from a correction .
- The source does not look very reliable... There are other sources, such as this one and this one. The France 2 report quoted in the news article says "Ben Ali est entre la vie et la mort" (Ben Ali is between life and death). I agree, we should wait for more reliabe sources before edit. The France 2 article: . Abdul Wadud D. Y. B. (Abdul Wadud) 22:45, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
This page seems to have been written by Ben Ali supporters. Comments and changes regarding his removal first and his supposed death have been refused stubbornly. This page looks very partial. Why you should arbitrarely say the news about his death are not reliable while the news about his survival are reliable ? Not even a mention in the page. That s a shame. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 14:47, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
In, editor 188.8.131.52 removed references to the "Jasmine Revolution" with the edit summary stating the two french article speak of the 2011 revolution and not the 1987 Coup. The 1987 Coup was never called "Jasmin Revolution"..
I will restore the text because editor 184.108.40.206 has missed these parts of the two sources:
- Temoignage Chretien http://www.webcitation.org/5xBhIUXxM: Zine El Abidine Ben Ali, qui aimait qualifier précisément son « coup d’Etat médical » de « Révolution du jasmin ».
- Le Quotidien d'Oran http://www.webcitation.org/5xBh31rJ9: Pourtant son arrivée au pouvoir après le coup d'Etat médicale contre Bourguiba était qualifiée de «révolution de Jasmin».
i.e. the first says that Ben Ali liked to give the name "Jasmine Revolution" for his "medical coup d'etat" and the second says that Ben Ali's rise to power after the "medical coup d'etat" was called the "Jasmine Revolution".
The number of online sources for events in Tunisia in 1987 is understandably not so big, and not many can be expected to be in English. The first source says that it was Ben Ali who liked the name, the second source does not claim how widely the name was used. So the safest thing is not to make any claim as to how widely the name was used. Apart from these direct sources, there do seem to have been many sources making similar claims. If anyone can find a better source or a conflicting source, then please add it and NPOV if necessary.