Talk:Zionism

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Former featured article Zionism is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
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[edit] why is my sourced edit being reverted to an unsourced one?

Tel aviv has reverted my sourced edit to an unsourced one including a link to antisemitism in a section that has nothing to do with antisemitism. Please explain. untwirl(talk) 19:53, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Anti-zionism is linked to anti-semitism. If you don't understand that then you probably should not be editing on this page. I suggest you explain what you are trying to do and then we work out a way of expressing that is acceptable to both of us. Sources were provided. Your source is not one which is an expert in the field and is a weasal attempt to suggest that the Zionism is racism decision was not removed for just reasons. The USA clearly did not propose the motion simply to keep ISrael happy: if that were the case Bush would not have given the speech himself. I provided plenty of sources to show the motion was popular, passed by general consent and did not originate in an Israeli demand. Most of the states who sponsored the original decision had a proven track record of antisemitism (and the chairman of the UN at the time was a former Nazi officer, possibly a war criminal, who may have participated in the extermination of the Jews of Thessalonika).

It appears as if you are trying to unduly highlight the resolution without giving due credence to the fact that the UN has accepted it was unjustified. Telaviv1 (talk) 18:37, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

The source i used is the israel ministry of foreign afairs. "One of Israel 's conditions for the participation of a UN observer in the Madrid Peace Conference was the revocation of the infamous resolution 3379 equaling Zionism with racism."
tel aviv, you do not own this article, and i dont have to clear obviously relevant material with you. that section is called "criticism of zionism" not "why criticism of zionism is wrong and antisemitic" and it has a tag asking for expansion. i will ignore your personal remarks and ask you to stop trying to prevent critics of zionism from being represented in that section. with your wholesale deletion of my sourced material, i am finding it hard to assume good faith, and may take this to the appropriate noticeboard. i suggest you revert yourself, and list specific problems you have with the extensive and well sourced section you have gutted. untwirl(talk) 21:19, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Telaviv1 Ad hominem arguments are not helpful - a former Nazi officer, possibly a war criminal, who may have participated... is not fact, but prejudice . "Anti-zionism is linked to anti-semitism. If you don't understand that then you probably should not be editing on this page." is not helpful. "The USA clearly did not propose the motion simply to keep ISrael happy: if that were the case Bush would not have given the speech himself." - No logic to that, might have done it specially to keep them happy!

Most of the states who sponsored the original decision had a proven track record of antisemitism -is this true of the majority of "Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Cuba, Dahomey, Egypt, Guinea, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libyan Arab Republic, Mauritania, Morocco, North Yemen, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, South Yemen, Sudan, Syrian Arab Republic, Tunisia, and United Arab Emirates."93.96.148.42 (talk) 09:53, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Indeed these countries have a recorded track record of antisemitism so what is your question ?Benjil (talk) 09:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
untwirl's edits are valid, and constructive contributions to a balanced Encyclopaedia. Telaviv1's are, in my opinion, destructive.93.96.148.42 (talk) 10:16, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Benjil, I thank you for your support but in my expereince the best way in wikipedia is to seek formulations that are acceptable to both sides. I beleive this is possible and aht the synthesis creates effective ideas and a path to understanding. I'm not happy with the current phraseology nor with some of the above comments but prefer to move on and find ways of expressing my views which are acceptable to everyone.

Incidentally you are not the first person to try and rescue my edits and this has recently been used by prejudiced (antisemitic?) wikipedians to attack me.

Telaviv1 (talk) 16:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] The Zionist understanding of antisemitism

This is a key part of Zionist ideology and I intend to create a section expanding (and explaining) how Zionists understand this issue. Telaviv1 (talk) 16:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

May I suggest "The Zionist use of "antisemitism"", as a more npov title. It is essential that criticism of Zionist exploitation of "antisemitism" is included.93.96.148.42 (talk) 04:26, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
It will be interesting to see how this turns into an NPOV and V section. --jpgordon::==( o ) 18:26, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] By way of an explanation

I've removed this passage from the article:

In 1903 the Tzarist secret police arranged the publication of a book containing forged minutes of a meeting of the elders of Zion in which they supposedly plotted to take over the world. This was one of the earliest, and possibly the most important example of situations in which anti-semitism and anti-Zionism have overlapped. There are many cases in which anti-semitism has manifested as anti-Zionism or vice versa.

My reason is fairly straightforward: Protocols of the elders of Zion is clearly anti-Semitic, but it is not "anti-Zionist" in the sense that the term is normally used. It has unquestionably been used in several "anti-Zionist" campaigns since the time of its publication, but the book itself is directed against an imaginary "Zionism" rather than the actual Zionist movement.

To describe the book as involving an overlap of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is original research and, by my understanding of the terminology involved, factually inaccurate as well. It would be entirely appropriate for us to describe when and how Protocols has been used by groups claiming to be "anti-Zionist", but the aforementioned passage is not suitable to the project.

Respectful discussion is welcome. CJCurrie (talk) 00:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

It has not been proved that Tzarist secret police arranged the publication of the book.93.96.148.42 (talk) 02:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Agree with CJCurrie. Zerotalk 08:34, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


"It has been used in anti-Zionist campaigns" but is not anti-zionist? I added examples of groups who have used the protocosl as you suggested (one from the 30's and one from the 80's) and references showing the authors were anti-zionist as well as anti-semitic.

You removed the material because it contradicts your POV or as you put it "is not anti-zionist in the sense the term is normally used". The comment that followed yours illustrates why this needs to be included.

BTW the person who thinks "it has not been proved..." also thinks Zionists deliberately misuse antisemitism (See his comments above). So tell me what do you think of his comment?

Telaviv1 (talk) 10:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I maintain that "Protocols" is not anti-Zionist in the sense that the term is generally understood today, even though it has been used by some anti-Zionist groups and fits into the delusional belief systems of those who are both anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic. That being said, I'm prepared to check Norman Cohn's book; if he actually made the case that "Protocols" was anti-Semitism expressed as anti-Zionism, then I will not object to this being included in the article.
I will also reiterate my view that referencing "Protocols" as the first thing in the "criticism" section is profoundly POV and misleading. As to the anon's comment, I don't agree with it and it has nothing to do with me. CJCurrie (talk) 01:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

What i get from Cohn (I read it some time ago) is that for those who believe in the protocols there is no meaningful distinction between a Zionist and a Jew, since we are all part of te same conspiracy. They do not specifically target zionism but only began to have the title "elders of zion" after the formation of zionism. He does not trace their history after WWII, but they are said to be widely published in the islamic world and there have been TV series based on them (see antisemitism in the arab world). Mr anon incidentally does a lot of editing and if you check you will see that he shares a lot of your thinking. You cannot simply pretend that he has nothing to do with you just as you cannot pretend the protocols are not relevant to anti-zionism. Among WESTERN anti-zionists it might be argued that protocol believers are firstly anti-jewish and only incidentally anti-zionist (though they do use the Palestinian issue for jsutification and to find support). In the middle-east and north africa it might be said to be the reverse, people are first anti-zionist and only then anti-Jewish and the second flows out of the first but these people do exist and they are part of anti-zionism. Migration is, I think, increaiisngly diminishing the importance of these kinds of distinctions. It is also questionable whether one should make a distinction between people who beleive the prtocols to be true.

I guess the solution to the problem is to create a seperate section and put the protocols in there. They certainly need a place somewhere. I may turn it into a summary and move the main part into the History of Zionism. Talk to me before you start reverting and we can reach a "respectful" (as you put it) agreement.

Ah I see your version of respect is a one way street, should I call you Sir?.

Telaviv1 (talk) 06:10, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The book may (or may not) be directed against an "imaginary" Zionism, but it has been used and continues to be used head-on as a notorious instrument against actual Zionism. It seems to me that earns it a prominent place in the article. If the book had a different original intent, that information can be mentioned for the reader's benefit. However, functionality trumps origins. Hertz1888 (talk) 06:47, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Note recruited by Telaviv1. Xotn (talk) 07:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
I have to agree with Hertz1888. Furthermore, the purpose of Wikipedia is to help educate and inform individuals; given the past (and present) use of the book, if we choose marginalize its appearance in the article, we also downplay its historical importance and impact -- which is a disservice to readers. --Nsaum75 (talk) 07:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Telaviv1's edits have devoted 1/3 of the section titled "Criticism of Zionism" to a forgery created long before the existence of Israel. This is blatant POV and a gross disservice to readers. Xotn (talk) 07:47, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
And Zionism existed long before the founding of Israel. --Nsaum75 (talk) 08:02, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Xotn. this is not a propaganda war but an effort to educate. Saying I am engaged in conspiratorial behaviour is offensive (I get this a lot). Open your mind and work with me on this, if we can agree then we can create something which promotes peace and understanding (I assume you want this). fighting anti-semitism is a legitimate cause and should not be a problem for you. I expanded the section because people like yourself kept saying it wasn;t relevant so I had to prove it was. It was initially much shorter. Ironically, proving it was resulted in my finding interesting new material. The forgery was created a long time ago but continues to be influential and many people believe it to be true. I am willing to reduce the section in size if that helps.

Telaviv1 (talk) 19:37, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

It was not created by the Tsarist Secret Police - that is NOT to say that it is anything but a work of fiction!93.96.148.42 (talk) 03:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that Protocols and resolutions against Zionism belong to Anti-Zionism article, but not here, since it have nothing to do with opposition to Zionism i.e. opposition to Jewish national homeland in Land of Israel. What should stay here is Jewish religious opposition to national homeland before Messiah and opposition from those who believe that Jews should assimilate in their host countries. What should be added is conflict between Zionism and Palestinian nationalism, with Jews and Arabs sometimes see each other as usurpers or not native to the land. Igorb2008 (talk) 21:10, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

                                                "It was not created by the Tsarist Secret Police - that is NOT to say that it is anything but a work of fiction!93.96.148.42 (talk) 03:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)"

                  "It has not been proved that Tzarist secret police arranged the publication of the book.93.96.148.42 (talk) 02:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)"

Ummm first off ufo's have not been proved to be real yet they have there own wiki...so what does somethings credibility have to do with anything....the fact that it was written and played an important part of some history on earth is the only basis it needs to be mentioned. This site wikipedia isn't about changing history...its about preserving history so that people will know and better understand there past. To manipulate history would in essence be like me saying the holocaust never existed. It did an i'm not on a campaign to bash the holocaust with my ignorance stick. So please don't bash other history just because it upsets the stomach. Perhaps it may prove to be useful to the present and future. To completely disregard it is to live in a false reality....come back to earth my friend.

         "::::And Zionism existed long before the founding of Israel. --Nsaum75 (talk) 08:02, 12 July 2009 (UTC)"

This is clearly a false statement because the word an concept of zionism was created only shortly before the formation of the state of israel that is today. Even in a biblical context no mention of zionism is EVER found in the torah. Though the word "land of zion is", it should not be confused with/or as Judaism. Judaism is a religion that places nothing before god. The creation/maintenance of the state of israel runs contrary to the religion. I want you to find me your proofs that "zionism existed long before..." reference the torah please and only because it is the first book given to moses and should be the first source you turn to... thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yahya4peace (talk • contribs) 10:04, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] errors in the origin of Protocols of the elders of zion

The article currently presents a distorted and inaccurate account of the origins of this forgery. I would like to draw your attention to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#Origins and the current text of that article.93.96.148.42 (talk) 03:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Labor Zionism vs. Socialist Zionism

The article refers to Labor Zionists and Socialist Zionists interchangeably. Historically, Socialist Zionism was a very different strain of thought, led by Ber Borochov, which started from a Marxist perspective but argued that the Jewish population represented an "inverted pyramid" of economic roles. From that, it was concluded that Jews must separate themselves from emerging socialist societies in Europe and develop their own economy and national entity elsewhere. The ong-term impact of Socialist Zionism may be too limited to warrant a separate section, but ti does the reader a disservice to seem to mention it and negate it at the same time.

On the other hand, Labor Zionism, led in the early days by A.D. Gordon, was only socialist in a broader, mostly non-Marxist sense. It could be viewed as putting the same program into effect, but for quite different reasons. Their point of view was that working the land (more than the proletarian industrial work highlighted Marxists) was necessary for the personal development of Jews, who had been isolated from the land for most of their history in Europe. And of course, Labor Zionism was the at least ostensibly dominant political viewpoint among Zionists in Eretz Israel from the early 20th Century until at least the the 1970s. Dvd Avins (talk) 15:34, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Resolutions condemning Zionism

This section previously opened with the statement, "Ideological opposition to Zionism later combined with the anti-Israel cold-war politics of the Soviet Union and the Arab antagonism to Israel, as well as with anti-Semitism." This statement lacks any sources, it seems to conflate a number of separate political movements, and its location at the opening of the section seems to condemn all anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Due to the nonfactual and biased nature of the sentence, I have removed it completely. Ca.w.hampton (talk) 06:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect, the source brought at the end of the paragraph supports both sentences. I have replaced the sourced material. -- Avi (talk) 06:41, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Please re-read the source. "This ideological opposition to Zionism later dovetailed with the anti-Israel cold-war politics of the Soviet Union and the Arab antagonism to Israel, as well as with anti-Semitism." This quote (more than halfway down, under "Anti-Zionism"), which the sentence I originally removed is directly paraphrased from, does not support the claim being made. This quote is saying that the mentioned ideologies all contained anti-Zionism. In no way does it contain any suggestion that the ideologies "combined" (which would be a blatant falsification anyway). Furthermore, the source article has a considerable nationalist bent to it. While it does certainly attempt to be impartial at times, it also seems quite comfortable in making proclamations such as, "The 6-day war, which resulted in a dramatic victory for Israel, had a profound affect on the attitude of Jews in Israel and abroad to Zionism and Israel. The war and lightning victory taught many Arabs that Israel was here to stay." To better fit with a neutral viewpoint, I am going to again remove the sentence, but I will attempt to replace it with something which better encapsulates the section. Ca.w.hampton (talk) 11:15, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Upon further examination, the information was redundant so I removed the unnecessary section and moved the reference down to fit with the matching information. Ca.w.hampton (talk) 11:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Where is it redundant? --jpgordon::==( o ) 15:01, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
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