Talk:Zoe Quinn

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WP:BLPNAME

In its entirety:

Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it, especially when doing so does not result in a significant loss of context. When deciding whether to include a name, its publication in secondary sources other than news media, such as scholarly journals or the work of recognized experts, should be afforded greater weight than the brief appearance of names in news stories. Consider whether the inclusion of names of living private individuals who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value. The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons. The names of any immediate, ex, or significant family members or any significant relationship of the subject of a BLP may be part of an article, if reliably sourced, subject to editorial discretion that such information is relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject. However, names of family members who are not also notable public figures must be removed from an article if they are not properly sourced.

Which part of this policy calls for deleting the name of the living person who set this kerfuffle in motion?

His name hasn't been intentionally concealed. His name appears in The Globe and Mail. He's certainly "directly involved in the article's topic" and his name's absence deprives the article of necessary context. I'm aware of norms that argue for the omission of names of alleged victims of sexual assault, and they might well be coextensive with WP:HARM. But the names of alleged perpetrators of such harassment? Confirmed in The Globe and Mail? Really? David in DC (talk) 19:56, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

He intentionally concealed his name when he posted. Removing the name doesn't change the context. His name only appears as brief mentions in blogs and news media. SPACKlick (talk) 19:59, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
He's certainly "directly involved in the article's topic" and his name's absence deprives the article of necessary context. Of what context? All the relevant context is that he was Zoe Quinn's boyfriend. Also, we concealed Zoe Quinn's real name, because it appeared in few to no RS so it wasn't encylopedic to state, and given that she used a fake name anywho, we should respect that. We should also err on the side of caution on including real people's names. I have not seen his name plastered in article titles, only revealing his connection as her 'ex boyfriend' and that's all the relevant context that is needed. The specific bit you're looking for in BLPNAME is Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it... We should keep it omitted due to privacy concerns for the individual at hand. Tutelary (talk) 20:06, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I disagree, but it seems consensus is in the other direction. So be it.
You may have noticed, I redacted it above on the talk page, too.
Now, what on earth is wrong with this direct quotation, attributed to the Guardian "According to The Guardian, Quinn has "had to pack up and move in with friends, after [this] online campaign of hatred against her." It's a reliable source and it's not an opinion piece. David in DC (talk) 20:23, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
IT's of no encyclopaedic value. WP:BLPGOSSIP states Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject. It may be worthwhile in an article called Responses to TheZoePost but it's not revelant to a disinterested article about Zoe Quinn. SPACKlick (talk) 20:29, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm beginning to understand why newbies are feeling bitten here. I'm feeling bitten and I'm no newby. There's a pervasive sense ownership in the hair-trigger edits going on around here and, believe it or not, I'm usually a BLP warrior on the exclusionary side of the debate. That a major newspaper has reported that the subject of a BLP has felt the need to move because of harassment is not gossip. It's a significant, factual development that would figure in any biography, wiki or published on old style paper. David in DC (talk) 20:43, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
SPACKlick, I agree with you on the name, it should be omitted, but I'm not seeing the proof that omitting the mention that she was driven from her home in a section entitled 'harassment' would be beneficial. Tutelary (talk) 20:50, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry if we've been a little zealous David in DC. WRT to the name, it simply violates BLP. WRT to the Guardian quote, I'm not convinced on the house move, but after you Boldly added it, I reverted it and now we discuss it. This is how editing is meant to work. I've queried whether it's relevant to a disinterested article on the subject. What does it add for the reader? SPACKlick (talk) 20:54, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
The real issue here is that the whole "harassment" section is probably going to need to become a "controversy" section. It really depends on how long this section is going to be; GamerGate has risen to the point of notability and actually has more articles than Zoe Quinn harassment does at this point (at least on Google News, though lord knows that's a rough estimate at best, as a lot of stuff involved in this aren't really great sources; there are lots of RSs, but a lot of sources are biased or have conflicts of interest, which is making sourcing things a lot more dicey). Also, a lot of the heat she has drawn is less harassment and more criticism, which complicates matters further, and even worse are the accusations that she is playing the victim (and there are numerous accusations of exactly this, re: the harassment and claims of misogyny). Her leaving her home is potentially noteworthy, but it depends on how much we end up including in the article. Titanium Dragon (talk) 09:20, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
The boyfriend's name seems important to try to understand this story. It does appear in several news sources, for example [1][2] (I hope that merely citing reliable sources on a discussion page isn't enough to get me revdelled, but nowadays, who knows?). The most important reason to include it is to facilitate further research by readers and editors. I should explain by that, what I mean is, there are two kinds of media: one, like The Associated Press, whose purpose in life is to waste your time giving you bland generalizations loaded down with their particular spin that you can't follow up on to understand, and the other, like the sources I cite here, which make a real effort to give you the actual lay of the land. Some elites on Wikipedia recently seem to have sworn allegiance to the former media approach, but many of us readers do not agree. And having the name to search with is one of the quickest ways there is to pick out the real articles from the time-wasters to try to figure out what (if anything) is at the bottom of all this. It may seem cruel to associate the boyfriend's name with all this, but it's just as "cruel" to associate Quinn; bottom line though is that when something becomes big news there's no holding it back and it's not our job to try. And any protection as a "family member" would be misplaced; he is an independent participant in the story.
Where we can be extra sensitive by BLP is to actually read that primary source of his cited in the Globe and Mail (I'm not even going to dare to try right now, but it does belong as a source in the article). In it, he has an update where he asks people not to harass Quinn, and makes other conciliatory statements, and mentioning these surely would not be a bad thing for either of the original parties to this pea-under-the-mattresses. I think that both parties, but especially Quinn, being the subject of the article, deserve to be heard in their own words - I always believe in letting the subject have his/her say. One of her primary references is [3].
I'll add that I still have no idea how obscure blog posts ever got turned into a cause for harassment or news coverage; the incomprehensibility of it is precisely why I want Wikipedia to cover it in detail. We don't understand how cyberbullying or popularity on the Web really works, I think, and this is data. We need freedom to navigate -- beginning with the most basic brass tacks like naming the parties -- in order to hope to do any service to that here. Wnt (talk) 03:38, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
I disengaged for a while. Life is too short. I'm gratified to see that, in my absence, the consensus has shifted and that the edit I advocated in this thread has been reinserted. Thank you. David in DC (talk) 18:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
I've also been disengaged and find the re-insert of the name a problem still. WNT you say The boyfriend's name seems important to try to understand this story. I have one question to counter that. If instead of the actual name it said "David Spindler" what difference would that make to the reader?
The ex boyfriend is not a public figure. There is no mention of him on the internet at all which isn't linked to the gamergate controversy, he's not a public figure so naming him rather than merely referring to him as "the ex boyfriend" and similar is a direct violation of the sections of WP:BLP quoted above.
Yes, he is a (limited) public figure at this point and no, it's not a violation of BLP. He has been named and his actions have been widely discussed in mainstream reliable sources as a Google News search reveals — there are literally hundreds of reliably-sourced news articles discussing Gjoni's role in launching this whole debacle. He has voluntarily given at least two media interviews on the subject. Given the significance of the allegations and insinuations in Quinn's life, it would be irresponsible for us to republish Gjoni's allegations in an essentially-anonymous fashion. It's a simple matter of source accountability. Eron Gjoni voluntarily and widely publicly posted a name-and-shame drama blog about his ex-lover — he can hardly claim any expectation of privacy when the consequences of his actions become international news.
I agree that we should not delve extensively into his life, but a brief mention of the name of the person who touched off the firestorm which engulfed Zoe Quinn's life is entirely encyclopedic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Many apologies, i've discovered from your link the reason I haven't been finding sources is my notes have his surname spelt wrong. There's much more coverage out there than I had found. In the words of our law courts, objection withdrawn. That being said, the blog was published anonymously so there was an expectation of some level of privacy. It is the wide and particularly voluntary publication of his name that justifies this inclusion.SPACKlick (talk) 10:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I fully agree that if they had not become a key part of a several-months-running international news story, neither his name nor his allegations would be encyclopedic. Unfortunately for all involved, we're now kinda stuck. Thanks for taking a second look. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:11, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Zoe Quinn image

Is this really the best image we could get of her? Her holding a bottle that appears to contain alcohol in it isn't exactly showing her in a good light during this entire incident. I feel like a replacement should be considered. GamerPro64 20:58, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

A better picture would be great, but I imagine non-copyright images are hard to come by. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:13, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, it's not a good picture. It's the only image of her in Commons, though, at least that I could find. The photo was originally uploaded from flickr, but looking for a replacement there, I found nothing with a usable license (only one in flickr at all, but it's Wireimage/Getty, so very little chance of getting it released). There may be a better one in there, but I'm not having any luck with the tagging/search on that site. Grayfell (talk) 21:58, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
The image could be cropped, though. The bearded dude has no relevance to the topic whatsoever. Diego (talk) 22:19, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
I don't think showing someone at a social engagement paints them in a bad light; agree with Diego that it could/should be cropped. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:34, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Done. DS (talk) 23:27, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Where did the image come from?

Having done a quick reverse image google search, this image is not new to the main stream. So who took the picture? Zoe Quinn? Someone else? I've seen this sort of thing before, a high quality image comes up of a highly requested person and then that image turns out to be a copyright violation. Looking at the commons page, it was uploaded by 'HugsBoson'. Do we've any confirmation that the user took the picture/personally knew who took the picture and got them to release it under a free license? Tutelary (talk) 01:45, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I've reverted to the previous image, and will goto commons to tag those uploads as copyvios. Tarc (talk) 02:11, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
I honestly had it pegged as a self-upload, but I guess there's no guarantee for that. I just sent her a contact form e-mail through her blog asking if she'd be interested in releasing a high-quality pic, though.
Peter Isotalo 11:28, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
Before the new images were uploaded, I directed Zoe to Wikimedia Commons after seeing her comment on the current photo.[4] I followed up with a private message stating that she needs to contact OTRS to confirm the permissions, I've had no response, but maybe check OTRS. - hahnchen 14:06, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
User:CPGSaw, you will have to contact Commons:OTRS (permissions-commons@wikimedia.org) to confirm that you hold the rights to the new images, or they'll probably be deleted. - hahnchen 20:32, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
Turns out that Zoe did upload some images to Commons, but they were deleted.[5] - hahnchen 20:34, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
User:Hahnchen, I've been given unofficial permission that I hold the rights to the images and that they're CC BY SA 3.0, but I'm in the process of clearing it in writing so it'll be above board. Should be done by the end of the day. CPGSaw (talk) 20:51, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
User:CPGSaw, Zoe's confirmed on Twitter.[6] Might be worth emailing permissions anyway. - hahnchen 20:58, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
User:Hahnchen, just did. I was in the process of emailing her for that exact statement but she posted it anyways. I've updated the talk pages and emailed OTRS so everyone should be on the same page. CPGSaw (talk) 21:02, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

We should ask her for a proper portrait rather than these artistic selfies.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:51, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I dunno, I think it looks fine. She's not the President or the Pope, no need for pantsuits and proper shoulders-forward, slight smile stares. Tarc (talk) 12:32, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
Her not holding a high status job is irrelevant, everyone is held to the same standards here. It should be a fairly neutral photo, the old cropped image was perfectly fine- we don't choose images based on the subject's opinions as we're supposed to be NPOV. Her sitting weird in a car making a funny face isn't neutral. --TheTruthiness (talk) 20:57, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
NPOV doesn't mean we ignore the subject's opinions. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:07, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
For the record, my "it looks fine" comment was about the image that you are also talking about, the cropped one. Tarc (talk) 21:09, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
WP:BLP is Wikipedia's strongest policy, the author requested it and licensed a free photo. That's something not many do. Tutelary (talk) 21:13, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm ... not convinced that the subject's expressed views on which image we should use are always intended in the most serious manner [7]. —David Eppstein (talk) 08:32, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Video game vs. text based computer game

Depression quest is a text based computer game. The article gives the impression that it is a video game, it would be good if this could be carefully addressed.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough11:59, 18 October 2014 (UTC).

That is not, I believe, the sense in which "video game" is normally used. (For example, Video_game_genres#Text_adventures ...) Rather, the term originated to distinguish games played in front of a visual display from boardgames. Pinkbeast (talk) 19:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

FYCs

Having read far more than I would like about the whole imbroglio it seems surprising that this article does not cover the dispute with and allegations by the FYCs.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough11:59, 18 October 2014 (UTC).

Biased

Games

It would be good to include some of the video games Quinn has developed. All the best: Rich Farmbrough01:10, 12 November 2014 (UTC).

Confirmation of relationship with reporter

Here is my reply to David Eppstein, regarding the topic of Zoe's Quinn's confirmed relationship with a reporter:

David Eppstein, that was pretty much what I was getting at with my suggestion of a change of wording. I think the BBC article was pretty clear in its reference to "the" relationship, but I'm not Bill Clinton and I'm not going to debate the meaning of the word "the" with you, and I'll concede that the point is ambiguous. She had a relationship with the reporter from Kotaku, which is actually a bit of information that is of value in trying to understand what happened and why. I think your point about "infidelity" is well-taken, and would suggest maybe the accusation itself be rephrased entirely to avoid that term, since whether the relationship (which can be confirmed to have occurred) was an act of "infidelity" or not is (I agree) completely irrelevant. But the fact that she had a relationship with a reporter does seem relevant, since it serves as the kernel of truth on which the other heaps of lies were based. So maybe instead of "published a blog post accusing her of infidelity" we could have something like "published a blog post that addressed her relationship with a reporter" or something along those lines. Personally, I would have benefited in my understanding of the issue if I had been able to find a reliable source one way or another as to whether she actually did have a relationship with that reporter, since otherwise it was hard to figure out what had been debunked and what hadn't. As it was, I finally came across the statement from the editor of Kotaku (which I don't suggest as a reliable source for that matter) but that took a lot of digging. It seems beneficial to the article to confirm that yes, there was a relationship. I also think it's equally (probably more) important to point out that the rest of the accusations were untrue -- but that's already there. I also don't think confirmation of the relationship has to be done in any particularly negative way. But otherwise it seems like intentionally trying to cover something up that's merely embarrassing, while obscuring the larger point of how all this played out. --Khgtcv (talk) 01:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Note that my earlier comments (as well as a few responses by other parties) were removed because I had interpreted the BBC article as confirming not just Zoe's relationship with a reporter (which it absolutely, unambiguously does) but also the claim made by her ex that the relationship constituted infidelity. I am trying to be very clear here that I'd rather avoid the "infidelity" label entirely (that was pretty much my original point as well) but do see value in the article confirming that there was a relationship. I think I explain that point more clearly in the above comment (originally a response to David Eppstein's comment, also deleted) and leave it to stand on its own. --Khgtcv (talk) 01:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh and since the link to the BBC article I mentioned was also deleted, here it is again: [8] --Khgtcv (talk) 01:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

"The rest of the accusations" - if this means that Greyson reviewed her game (he didn't he simply mentioned it), then we certainly can and I think do make that clear. The rest of the accusations by her ex-boyfriend we do not, I think, mention, nor should we as things stand, in any case not in any detail. The salient point is that the personal accusations of her sexual relationships within the gaming industry gave rise to accusations that favours were being obtained through unethical means. I agree that the question of infidelity does not arise, neither we nor any RS are likely to be privy to enough information to comment on this. If, however, RS reported that "accusations of infidelity" were significant, then that might be considered relevant. All the best: Rich Farmbrough01:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC).
Yes, I mainly had in mind the (completely unfounded, and blatantly obviously so given the lack of any actual review) accusations that her relationship was in exchange for a positive review, or anything that came after (other similar accusations regarding other reporters or figures in the gaming industry, none of which are even to confirmed to have happened at all, let alone for nefarious reasons.) But I don't see the personal accusation of her having had a relationship with a reporter as being what led to subsequent accusations (which in turn are what brought her to notability) but rather the actual relationship itself. Wikipedia has much higher standards of evidence than most regular people, so it takes a BBC article affirming the existence of the relationship to even come close to justifying its inclusion in an article -- but for most people the standard is less onerous, and was met long ago, at the very least by the statement from Kotaku on the matter (which is what confirmed it for me.) I don't think the issue would have progressed as far as it did, had there not been an actual relationship at its core. So that seems relevant. At the very least, it was something I came to this article specifically in search of, when I first heard of Zoe Quinn and the surrounding controversy... and I'm sure I'm not the only one who came here looking for clarity on what did and did not actually happen, and what was just posturing on either side. The more I think about it, the more the "infidelity" part just seems completely irrelevant, even in terms of the accusations. It was the accusation of there being a relationship, later backed up with more concrete evidence, that led to accusations of that relationship being improper (in the context of journalistic ethics) and ultimately to those later accusations being debunked. Infidelity doesn't really factor into it, one way or another. --Khgtcv (talk) 02:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Actually, looking just now there isn't any mention of the accusations regarding her (non-existent) positive review being false. Didn't there used to be? Or am I imagining that? Maybe some of the material was moved over to the GameGate article? Anyway, maybe that section on this article should actually just be trimmed down even further, and mention of her ex's accusations removed entirely from this article. Maybe I'll take up this topic over there at some point, but not today as this is a bit stressful, like tip-toeing through a minefield. --Khgtcv (talk) 02:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I should add, having just discovered it... The article by Greyson was called "Admission Quest", had a large screenshot from Depression Quest, and only named 3 of the 50 games being green lit by Steam, so it's not quite the "only mention" that I thought. Also I was unaware that Greyson wrote the article I have seen most widely quoted about the television reality show. All the best: Rich Farmbrough03:14, 22 November 2014 (UTC).