Template talk:2010 FIFA World Cup qualification - UEFA Group 7

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MTC look over here :D[edit]

about the "removing width constraint on team column, it caused all rows of the fixture grid to wrap (when fully expanded) and there is no reason to define the width anyway" I think its because on a page like 2010_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA) they should all be the same exact length to make it look better. Chandlertalk 22:27, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The home teams in fixtures table have to be unbolded somehow, maybe then the problem with wrapping text will be solved. Artyom (talk • contribs) 23:00, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I think my edit summary speaks for itself there, it looks silly to have the fixtures grid twice the height of the table. I also doubt that unbolding the home teams would have fixed the problem on its own. If you really want to keep the fixed width, then the width should probably be reduced from 165 to the exact length of the longest team name (Bosnia and Herzegovina).
Other ways to reduce the width are could be:
  • Removing the apostrophes in front of the 2-digit years in the fixtures grid.
  • Reducing the fixed width of the other columns in the main table
  • Removing either the flags or the team names in the home team column of the fixtures grid.
So which of the above should be done, if not all of them? - MTC (talk) 11:16, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Well I at least think all group tables should have the same width. (Im sorry I wasnt clear on that before) I think too show the date plus the year is somewhat not needed, it was at least not done like that for the Euro qualifiers, I think it was only the day + month "4/5" too keep it small. I agree that the home team column could be without the names or flags, though I like the way it looks right now. About the wrap though, what's the width all pages should be made for. I mean I use 1600x1200 and will never have problem with wrap of them. But is it 1024? Chandlertalk 11:32, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Team Pld W D L GF GA GD Pts
 Greece 12 10 1 1 25 10 +15 31
 Turkey 12 7 3 2 25 11 +14 24
 Norway 12 7 2 3 27 11 +16 23
 Bosnia-Herzegovina 12 4 1 7 16 22 −6 13
 Moldova 12 3 3 6 12 19 −7 12
 Hungary 12 4 0 8 11 22 −11 12
 Malta 12 1 2 9 10 31 −21 5
  Bosnia and Herzegovina Greece Hungary Malta Moldova Norway Turkey
Bosnia-Herzegovina  0–4 1–3 1–0 0–1 0–2 3–2
Greece  3–2 2–0 5–0 2–1 1–0 1–4
Hungary  1–0 1–2 2–0 2–0 1–4 0–1
Malta  2–5 0–1 2–1 2–3 1–4 2–2
Moldova  2–2 0–1 3–0 1–1 0–1 1–1
Norway  1–2 2–2 4–0 4–0 2–0 1–2
Turkey  1–0 0–1 3–0 2–0 5–0 2–2
If this one dont wrap for ppl (I think its the logest) maybe it's just best to go back too its exact format? Chandlertalk 11:36, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the years should be removed, as the dates in August, September and October would be ambiguous as to which year they are. Using "11/10/08", etc. for the dates would still be slightly shorter than "11 Oct 08", etc.
Regarding resolution, I use 1024×768 (the highest resolution possible on this laptop screen), as do many others. I recall reading somewhere that a Wikipedia page should be readable even on an 800×600, though I doubt it would be possible to make these tables fit such a small resolution. - MTC (talk) 13:37, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Right, see User:MTC/results tables. Is there anything wrong with what I've done there? - MTC (talk) 14:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I dont have anything to complain about on that one. Looks good. Chandlertalk 16:45, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the width of the column matching the longest team name - Bosnia and Herzegovina is 165 px long on 90% font, so there isn't much to do there except lowering the font size percentage. What else we could do is we could replace the home team names with just flags (as is done for away teams), because it looks kinda funny when there is a standings table with teams and flags and a fixtures table right next to it with team names and flags for home teams as well. Artyom (talk • contribs) 17:22, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
"Bosnia and Herzegovina" certainly doesn't take up 165px on 90% font, see the table below:
with width=165 with width=145
 Bosnia-Herzegovina  Bosnia-Herzegovina
 Bosnia-Herzegovina takes up 145px on 90% font size (or do you use a different font to the default Arial?), so the fixed width should be reduced to 145, if "and" is replaced with "&" in the template, it could be even smaller. I disagree with lowering the font size any more than 90%, it would be close to unreadable.
I suggested removing the team names in the fixtures grid in an above message, but after testing things on User:MTC/results tables I found it is unneccessary, it still could be done though. - MTC (talk) 19:31, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 Bosnia-Herzegovina does take up 165 px on 90% font. The thing is the cell expands so that the text inside it doesn't unnecessarily wrap, that's why it looks the same on 145 px width in your example. In fact, you can see that, since both cells in your example have about the same width. See below:
145 px
160 px
165 px
170 px
Artyom (talk • contribs) 04:08, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
The cells in my example show as different widths on my screen, there is a 20px gap beside the name in the first column, but not in the second. Standard HTML tables only deviate from the width you specify when the text is unable to wrap any further, or to stop the table extending off the side of the page; neither is occuring in this case. In your example, the 145px table is the same width as the one containing  Bosnia-Herzegovina (screenshot). I can only assume that you are using a browser that displays tables in a different way to the HTML standard, and a non-default font face too. I am using Firefox, which I know sticks to the standards for tables. - MTC (talk) 07:26, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I see now. Sorry for that misunderstanding though. I am using Internet Explorer 7, with default settings. The size of cell containing  Bosnia-Herzegovina was just about 165px here. My idea would be these differences occur because of the way different browsers handle 90% font. I haven't checked it on Firefox, but this font does appear way too small in Opera browser. So I don't even know what should be done now so that all browsers display the article the way it is supposed to be displayed... The only thing I can think of is removing the team names and leaving only the flags for home teams in fixtures tables, as we discussed above. I played around with it at my sandbox. Well, as you said the tables don't look good that way. Especially when the scores will be added. But if there is no other choice, we will probably have to stick with that. And we can put the home team names back after all matches in 2008 have been played (because we won't have to mention the year in remaining fixtures anymore :-) ) Artyom (talk • contribs) 07:54, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
That seems acceptable, though I'm now wondering how Internet Explorer displays the tables in User:MTC/results tables, does anything wrap there? - MTC (talk) 12:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Yep, the cells containing Bosnia & Herzegovina do wrap in both tables, after the "&" sign. So if even that doesn't work, probably one of the last things we could do is removing the goal difference column. Full tables on uefa.com, for example, don't have that column. Artyom (talk • contribs) 18:15, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Goal difference is the first tiebreaker in the World Cup qualifying, so it's far more important than it was for the Euro 2008 qualifying, which used head-to-head instead. Goal difference shouldn't be removed from these tables. The best solution seems to be the one in your sandbox, that is removing the team name from the fixtures grid until the end of the 2008 matches. - MTC (talk) 06:14, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I removed the home team names for the only two groups that already have fixtures arranged (7 and 9). It doesn't look perfect but its acceptable for now, I guess. Now that some space was freed looks like we can replace two-digit years with 4-digit ones :D Artyom (talk • contribs) 18:39, 17 December 2007 (UTC)