Template talk:Armenian diaspora

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Javakheti as an Armenian homeland?[edit]

"There are no exact borders between historical Armenia and Georgia." - Dear 173.76.95.250, and that is why mentioning Javakheti within Armenian homeland is an obvious POV. We cannot edit pages on nationalistic basis (Armenian or Georgian, it doesn't matter). My version is much more acurate and NPOV. –BruTe Talk 06:32, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not editing page by mu own views. Where have you see nationalism here??? Even if you consider Javakhk-Javakheti as Georgian historical land, it is part of the Armenian Highland. Also, if you agree, I can change it to "Homeland and adjacent territories". That will be true in any way. And it will be neutral. --Yerevanci (talk) 17:19, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree for the following reason: Armenian diaspora is a certain article and I think we would both agree that Armenian Highland/Homeland has nothing to do with this template which is only about a diaspora and nothing more. –BruTe Talk 08:45, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
OK. Look at this.

Do you see that it's divided to 2 sections: Homeland and Diaspora. Or this one.

Do you see that they are divided to 2 sections. So your arguments are unacceptable.--Yerevanci (talk) 15:12, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so and I don't think it's clever contrast between Assyrian and Armenian people. Assyrians were natives to those teritorries mentioned at that template as a "Homeland", but for our case it was just a greatest extent of the Kingdom of Armenia. I don't say that historical homeland of the Armenians is only modern-day Armenia but this is a controversial issue since there are no exact borders of historical Armenia. That's why I'm against changing this version of the template which is more acurate and NPOV than yours. –BruTe Talk 11:42, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
It’s not about the greatest extent of the Kingdom of Armenia, some historical Armenian lands were never part of Armenia (like Javakhk was part of Armenia only during Tigran the Great’s kingdom, but it was 2000 years ago) and vice versa, some not historical Armenian lands were part of Armenia (Cilicia, Greeks were living there long before us).

So I think the term “Homeland and adjacent territories” should be acceptable for Javakheti-Javakhk.--Yerevanci (talk) 13:50, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to interrupt, but many greek authors not to mention Movses of Khorene have written, that the boundary between Iberia and Kingdom of Armenian is the river Kura. I think that our georgian collegue knows that very well!--91.204.190.23 (talk) 16:45, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry my Armenian collegue but what about those "greek authors" have written? The Kingdom of Armenia under Tigranes II or historical boundaries of the Armenians? And by the way, I'm not an "ultra nationalist" as you wrote in your edit summary. Please consult WP:PERSONAL. Thanks! –BruTe Talk 19:25, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
OK BruTe, if you need a neutral POV, please see this (http://www.archive.org/stream/armeniatravelsst01lync#page/452/mode/2up) book. And on the map on left you'll see this (please see this image - http://i006.radikal.ru/1108/72/7745d4ac262d.jpg) The author is H. F. B. Lynch, and the book is from 1901. I don't think you have something against his neutrality.--Yerevanci (talk) 21:09, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
By definition, any presence of sizable ethnic community in another country is considered "diaspora". Is there any third-party source defining Javakheti as "homeland"/"adjacent territories" or whatever you call it. The term “Homeland and adjacent territories” sounds pretty much like WP:OR to me. Sources, please... --KoberTalk 17:19, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
OK, here is the definition from Diaspora page.

A diaspora (from Greek διασπορά, "scattering, dispersion")[1] is "the movement, migration, or scattering of people away from an established or ancestral homeland"[2] or "people dispersed by whatever cause to more than one location",[3] or "people settled far from their ancestral homelands".[2]

  • the movement, migration, or scattering of people away from an established or ancestral homeland
  • people dispersed by whatever cause to more than one location
  • people settled far from their ancestral homelands

Do you see that just because Javakheti-Javakhk is part of Georgia, doesn't mean it's a diaspora. Javakhk at some point of history (look below) was part of Armenia, so it can be considered as Armenian homeland, but not diaspora. --Yerevanci (talk) 22:55, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I think everyone can understand russina. well here it is:

[Russian removed][edit]

I must agree with Brute, mentioning Javakheti, Nakhchivan, Karabakh within Armenian homeland is very POV. Neftchi (talk) 11:48, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
I also want to note that original research is not allowed. This template is about the Armenian diaspora, so stick to the subject and do not provoke with terms as "homeland". Another thing is that the small explanations behind the regions are also POV and do not reflect any kind of neutrality. For example: "About 85,000 Armenians of Lower Artsakh left their homes since the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict broke out" - are you kidding me? The almost 85,000 people that left were ethnic Azerbaijanis who represented about a quarter of the NK population. They were not Armenians, this proofs your original research and that is against Wiki regulations. Or for example: "Armenians left their homes, because of the anti-Armenian policy of Azerbaijan and later Soviet Azerbaijan." - Have you never read history books? Soviet Azerbaijan was prior to independent Azerbaijan. Not to mention what anti-Armenian policy? There was also anti-Azerbaijan policy in Armenia, it was war. To summ things up, there is no neutrality, the term is POV and even incorrect information with original research. For these reasons I support Kober and Brute and restored their version of the template. Neftchi (talk) 12:00, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
This edit by Yerevanci could be considered an act of vandalism. He did not answer the questions put forth by Brute, nor he did answer the questions by Kober and most recently he didnt give any attention to my arguments I made here above. I reverted his changes until he can give some answers. Neftchi (talk) 09:17, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
I also want to add that it is established that user Yerevanci is Hovik, sockpuppetry is against wiki regulations. [1] Neftchi (talk) 13:22, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Yerevanci, your links prove nothing regarding the definition of the Javakheti Armenian community. You should provide neutral, third-party sources directly referring to the community as "non-diaspora". Otherwise your edits are an example of WP:OR/WP:SYNTHESIS/WP:POV.--KoberTalk 05:36, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Javakhk/Javakheti issue[edit]

Samtskhe-Javakheti is an administrative division of modern Georgia. Javakheti is the Georgian name of a historical region in Caucasus, which is referred to as Javakhk by Armenians. This template is about the Armenian diaspora.

For a more clear view see this template and please carefully look at the top section. Did you find "Sudetenland"? It is the German name of the region, while it is and was part of Czech lands and the name in Czech is "Sudety", but because the template is about the Germans, name of the region is the German one, not Czech. No one argues the fact that Javakheti/Javakhk is part of Georgia, please do not misunderstand.

--Yerevanci (talk) 23:50, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Weak argument Yerevanci. Sudeteland is included in Czech republic and so should be Javakheti into Georgia. That's why I am removing it from the bar of historical/traditional places as you put. It's odd what historic or traditional heritage do Armenians have for Georgian region. Majority of Armenians who live in Georgia for now they all were settled by Russian Empire into Georgian lands by Mr Paskevich if you're not aware. And as for Javakheti region what you call Javahk Russian Empire made a purposeful ethnical and demographic attack on Javakhi people (indigenous group of Georgians) and made them into minority in its own land. So it's ridiculous to claim it as a historical settlement of Armenians. Javakheti is named because there lived and live Javakhi people not Armenians who were settled there from Kars, Erzurum etc. by Russian Empire. It should be put into Georgia not some other place. GeorgianJorjadze (talk) 09:10, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Weak argument Jorjadze. Almost every person who lives in modern Armenia today are either descendants of the Armenian Genocide survivors from Western Armenian or descendants of Persian and Ottoman Armenians who came there in 1828-1829. Just because Javakhk's today's Armenian population was settled there in 1828, doesn't mean that Armenians did not live there before as well.
Please give me one neutral (non-Georgian) source that proves your following statement. Russian Empire made a purposeful ethnical and demographic attack on Javakhi people (indigenous group of Georgians) and made them into minority in its own land. --Yerevanci (talk) 21:05, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
I must agree you on that. Present Armenians are the refugees from Anatolia and they migrated to present Armenia because of the events in Ottoman Empire. As for Javakheti it never belonged to Armenia and that is clear. Massive immigration to Georgia of Armenians by encouraging from Russians started in the begining of 19th century as the Georgian Kingdoms were annexed by Russia. GeorgianJorjadze (talk) 11:16, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
OK then what are your criteria for being belonged to Armenia?? Present day Armenia was under a foreign control for about 900 years. The last Armenian dynasty, the Bagratids fell in 1045 and it wasn't until 1918 when Republic of Armenia was proclaimed. How can you say that this particular region didn't belong to Armenia? If you're talking about the last Armenian dynasty the Bagratids, well their kingdom did include Javakheti/Javakhk, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bagratuni_Armenia_1000-en.svg.--Yerevanci (talk) 19:55, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Also, J̌awakx’ Nerk’in and J̌awakx’ Verin were part of Gugark, listed among the historical provinces of Armenia. GeorgianJorjadze's claim is groundless. Sardur (talk) 22:37, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Sardur, all of today's Armenia was part of Georgian kingdom as well. Should we put all the nowadays Armenian provinces and regions into the Georgian historical templates? GeorgianJorjadze (talk) 22:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Jorjadze, you did not answer my question. What are your criteria for being belonged to Armenia??--Yerevanci (talk) 15:47, 28 April 2012 (UTC)