Template talk:Asia topic

Changing Palestinian territories to State of Palestine

Considering the recent recognition of the State of Palestine as an observer state, there should be an appropriate change in the template Palestinian territories->State of Palestine (or simply Palestine). Previous related articles are all messed up - some saying Pt and some PNA, thus changing them all to the updated State of Palestine will fix it. Of course new articles on politics, demographics, geography etc. should be created for State of Palestine, but i'm ready to begin the work.Greyshark09 (talk) 18:35, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

One UN vote does not mean we should reshuffle a huge amount of our articles around. We report on political changes, but do not write our articles around them. There's been a State of Palestine since 1988, it wasn't simply created in the past week. This is a navigational template meant to direct readers to articles on the topic in question, whether they be titled "Geography of the State of Palestine" or "Demographic of the Palestinian territories", or so on. The recent discussion just above noted that "Palestinian territories" is the most common title. If that changes, bring it up here again. CMD (talk) 21:38, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Articles about the Palestinian territories ("West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip") are usually located at "Palestinian territories" titles (e.g. Economy of the Palestinian territories, Political status of the Palestinian territories, unless the page is more related to the Palestinian Authority ("organization [...] to govern the West Bank and Gaza Strip"), (e.g. Prime Minister of the Palestinian National Authority). I don't see anything messed up about that.

With the resent RM of Palestine the "Palestinian territories" titles may soon change to "Palestine" but why would that impact "Palestinian National Authority" titles? the Prime Minister of the PNA is not the Prime Minister of the State of Palestine. Like Soman said "To be clear, the State of Palestine [...] and the Palestinian National Authority are not the same. The PNA is an organ for local self-governance, but not a state. It is subordinate to the PLO, and founded several years after the declaration of independence of the State of Palestine. The UN General Assembly vote in itself changes nothing regarding the PNA."Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 15:42, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

On a PNA note, while it may be a legally separate entity from the State of Palestine, outside of that legal distinction there's not much real separation. The Prime Minister of the PNA is the same person as the Prime Minister of the State of Palestine. His designation of one of the other depends on a political decision by whoever is referring to him. CMD (talk) 16:02, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

You sure about that? "Prime Minister of the Palestinian National Authority" shows 4,370,000 results while "Prime Minister of the State of Palestine" shows 4. The President of the State of Palestine and the President of the Palestinian National Authority are pretty much the same but as far as I know there is no Prime Minister of the SOP. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 16:16, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

The PNA is the only recognised Palestinian governing body. Due to this, it is the effective governing body of the State of Palestine, as endorsed by the PLO (which also has the same head), virtually universally held as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people. Any country recognising Palestine hold relations with the PLO, and through that to the PNA. All current views of the path to a complete two-state solution involve Israel giving over complete power to the PNA. CMD (talk) 16:36, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't care your political opinions, as long as they are not bound in WP:RS, the PNA was upgraded to be an observer state in the UN named "State of Palestine" - check those sources:

The United Nations General Assembly on Thursday endorsed an upgraded U.N. status for the Palestinian Authority CNN

The Palestinian Authority is now a non-member observer state. It was previously a non-member observer. The new status will allow it access to some UN international agencies and to sign treaties. CBS

The Palestinian Authority circulated a draft resolution to U.N. member states on Wednesday that calls for upgrading its U.N. status to that of an "observer state" REUTERS

Abbas will formally request that the UN General Assembly upgrade the Palestinian Authority’s (PA) status from observer to nonmember state on November 29. RT

Hope it makes it clear.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:59, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

None of those sources imply the PNA no longer exists. Sources still discuss the PNA in the present tense. They do however show the point that the PNA and the State of Palestine are the same. CMD (talk) 21:28, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

The PNA and the State of Palestine are not the same, on the contrary. They have separate governments, separate presidents, separate parliaments. The only thing they have in common is that both are established by the PLO. Japinderum (talk) 10:07, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Whatever difference there is is one that sources are obviously happy to consider unimportant. To say that the only thing they have in common is the PLO connection completely ignores reality, where they, as the sources show, are often considered parts of the same entity. CMD (talk) 03:00, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

We should not use sources by confused authors who don't care about details. Reality is that the government of the State of Palestine is the PLO-EC per decision of the State of Palestine parliament, the PNC. Reality is that those are a different government from the PNA Cabinet and a different parliament from the PNA parliament, the PLC. Reality is that the link between the PNA and the State of Palestine is exactly through the PLO, to whose structures those are accountable and by whom those were established. Of course the PLO ensures smooth interaction and synchronous actions of the two, so that the set goals are achieved. Nobody claims otherwise, but that confuses some onlookers. For example:

Your statement "The Prime Minister of the PNA is the same person as the Prime Minister of the State of Palestine" is incorrect - there is no position "Prime Minister of the State of Palestine". Japinderum (talk) 08:02, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Most of the topics the template is utilized for deal with geographic/territorial ("Palestinian territories" suits those cases) or administrative (PNA administering Areas A and B of the Palestinian territories suits those cases) issues - much less of the topics deal with diplomatic matters ("State of Palestine" suits those cases). So, it seems "Palestinian territories" will result in the least number of redirects. That's why it's better to keep the status quo. In any case - when the topic of the article is about the PNA, the State of Palestine or something else - a navigational redirect can be created (as it is in multiple cases already), no problem. Japinderum (talk) 08:02, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

I tend to agree for the status quo for now - let's wait several weeks, and see if there are significant changes regarding PNA/SoP.Greyshark09 (talk) 10:56, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - this discussion is continued below as a proposal, following notable changes on the ground.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:03, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

State of Palestine

Considering the recent upgrade of the Palestinian National Authority to become a non-member observer state on Nov. 29, 2012 (officially the State of Palestine); the official UN designation change of "Palestine / PLO" to "State of Palestine" (Dec. 20, 2012) and this week's decree by Palestinian President Abbas to change all Palestinian institutions to become "State of Palestine" institutions ("President Abbas signed a presidential decree changing the name of the Palestinian Authority to the “State of Palestine,” following the Palestinians’ upgraded status at the United Nations as a non-member observer state." [1]), with the change already taking place (see Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics [2]) i propose to change the target of "Palestine" from "Palestinian territories" to "State of Palestine" (currently, the template says "Palestine", but redirects to "Palestinian territories"). Please vote support or oppose.Greyshark09 (talk) 22:37, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

• Wrong venue If the intent is to request that all Palestinian territories titles be moved to State of Palestine titles, the talk page of this template is the wrong venue. Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) I think would be the place, maybe Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Palestine. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:55, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

No, this is not the request.Greyshark09 (talk) 23:00, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

In many cases, the "Pt" titles can stand alone, with no need to rename them. Palestinian territories is relating to post-1967 West Bank and Gaza Strip or post-1993 Palestinian Authority areas. State of Palestine was created in 1988, recognized as non-member state in 2012 and replaces all previous titles from 2013. Hence in some cases Pt or PNA articles should remain as is.Greyshark09 (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

My point stands, even if the request is only to move some of them, this is the wrong venue.

Also you keep going around Wikipedia asserting that Palestinian territories is a vague and dubious term, yet your assertion has been rejected by 6 editors (including me). Your assertion also contradicts the long standing lead of Palestinian territories has described the PT as consisting of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and, the overwhelming majority of RS, which describe the PT as consisting of the West Bank and Gaza Strip [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13]. At this point this seems like WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 05:15, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: I haven't read State of Palestine lately to see what the article and legal developments are per High Quality WP:RS. Why not bring this generally issue to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Current Article Issues where you are more likely to get more people with more insight into the issue and a broader perspective it. If it's still the two of you going back and forth... gets me dizzy :-) CarolMooreDC 22:59, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose there is no "upgrade of the Palestinian National Authority to become a non-member observer state". It's the PLO delegation whose title was changed into SoP delegation. The decision of PNA president to rename it is related to that event, but not related to the proposal here. The 2012 UNGA resolution is about UNGA observer delegation, not about Wikipedia articles and especially not about navigation templates. The resolution doesn't use the word "upgrade" neither, but it seems people want to "upgrade" it where they can, in Wikipedia. The following is also wrong: "State of Palestine...replaces all previous titles from 2013" - it may replace some official titles in the UN or PNA, but Wikipedia article names are decided on their talk pages and not at the UN or PNA. That's especially true for "Palestinian territories" article, which describes has a totally different topic (territorial/geographical) from articles titled SoP or PNA (political creations). SoP may claim oPt and PNA may operate there, but they are not the same. The proposal of this section was already discussed above: Most of the topics the template is utilized for deal with geographic/territorial ("Palestinian territories" suits those cases) or administrative (PNA administering Areas A and B of the Palestinian territories suits those cases) issues - much less of the topics deal with diplomatic matters ("State of Palestine" suits those cases). So, it seems "Palestinian territories" will result in the least number of redirects. That's why it's better to keep the status quo. In any case - when the topic of the article is about the PNA, the State of Palestine or something else - a navigational redirect can be created (as it is in multiple cases already), no problem. Japinderum (talk) 11:34, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• The oPt is by no means a "[State] with limited recognition" as it is not a state. Palestine should of course link to the state, not the land. I see no need for a discussion for a factual matter such as this, just fix the mistake. Though, this template has multiple problems due to the fact that the divisions in it are not mutually exclusive to one another. Taiwan and Israel, and a few others to a lesser extent could fit under both of the first two headings. Sepsis II (talk) 13:34, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

To adapt CMD's above statement , All this template does is provide a basic base template that can be easily changed to provide links to similar topics. As a result, there's no reason to use this template as a plain standalone, so there's no reason it should (within the main namespace) ever link to the Palestinian territories article. Much of the time this template works through redirects, we want the link that will result in the least number of redirects per WP:BRINT. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 13:48, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

This is not a reasonable excuse to ignore a UN observer state. It is far more important to present the actual entity, rather than some loosely defined area. Links can be quickly fixed or added. Quiet few already exist for the state, rather than for Pt.Greyshark09 (talk) 18:47, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

There's no reason the template should (within the main namespace) ever link to the Palestinian territories article, and as I said above your assertion that PT is a "loosely defined area" was rejected. There are only a few All pages with titles containing "State of Palestine", and even if Template:Intitie were given SOP titles most of those articles are about some PNA office, there are only a few topic articles there. Topic articles are far more commonly located at Template:Intitie

• Comment Greyshark invited everyone who participated in so we're going to get allot of people who don't know what a topics template is, and might think that this is just a list of countries in Asia or something. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 20:32, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, this is a Wikipedia articles navigation template, it's not a list of sovereign states. This nav.template is used in many more territorial/geographical articles where a link to Palestinian territories is direct, without a redirect. Those are the majority of cases. For the few cases, where the article title is different (SoP, PNA, PLO or whatever), a redirects are already in place (or can be made if needed). Japinderum (talk) 07:28, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Cities of Asia?

How come there is Template:List of cities in Europe, but when I click "V" in similar template about Asia, I get here? I just checked all continents, and Europe is the only one with a separate template for cities. Nice indeed. 82.141.95.124 (talk) 03:46, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Etiquette in Thailand link

The link Etiquette in Thailand redirects to Etiquette in Asia#Thailand. Please fix this.--Auric talk 20:38, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

How's it broken, is there a better target? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 21:53, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 February 2013

Remove Egypt from the list of Asian countries. It's considered to be in Africa. Only a small part of it lies in Asia. Seiyko (talk) 16:11, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

N Not done See discussion above on this topic. If this is to be done, it needs to be the subject of a full discussion, not just an edit request. Dana boomer (talk) 15:33, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request April 29, 2013

Please change "[[the People's Republic of China|People's Republic of China]]" to "[[China|China]]". Many articles are moved to the name "China" since the consensus to move the country article China. 204.140.158.204 (talk) 20:10, 29 April 2013 (UTC)