Template talk:Boston Road Transportation

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Template accuracy and completeness[edit]

I am requesting that the use of this template be put on hold until a discussion of content is held. Sswonk (talk) 03:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I am having temporary internet access problems, so please bear with me. My first concern is the definition of "Boston metro". Unless it is kept within a manageable distance, this template will become cluttered with many, many streets. This needs to be addressed first. Will the template creator please respond so that I can be sure that my good faith assumptions aren't misplaced? If you have trouble with English, I will try to make sure that I use words that can be understood easily. Sswonk (talk) 03:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Note: User:NCStateNo1Fan has responded to my talk page and was invited to join the discussion. Sswonk (talk) 18:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I think that having a template like this could be useful if inclusion criteria are developed. Specifically I'd suggest removing most of the Charles River bridges, as most of them are fairly minor. Antony-22 (talk) 04:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
For reference Category:United States metropolitan area highway templates has examples of how other places have done it. Listing all state routes is probably too much. Listing expressways and possibly other divided highways may be one option. --Polaron | Talk 04:19, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Bridges to keep: *Leonard P. Zakim Bunker Hill Memorial Bridge, Anderson Memorial Bridge · Charlestown Bridge · Eliot Bridge · *Harvard Bridge · Leverett Circle Connector Bridge · *Longfellow Bridge · Tobin Bridge
I've tagged the absolutely required, IMHO, bridges with "*". The Tobin is not a Charles River bridge. - Denimadept (talk) 04:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
(ec) As I wrote above, I don't think the list of named streets will fly. On the category page, with NYC there are separate templates for expressways, parkways and Manhattan streets. Here, I think the streets need there own template. I like the idea of a navbox, and have thought of sandboxing it before but this particular discussion went on in my head and I moved on. I think, though I'm a little unsure, that inside 128 should be the extent of this navbox, but need to look at it more to go beyond that thought. Also, the parkways should be in a separate part of this box, or in a separate "DCR parkways" box, just not very sure right now. Sswonk (talk) 04:32, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
My list of bridges to keep would be Tobin, Zakim, Harvard, BU, Anderson, and perhaps Watertown. I'd include a link to List of crossings of the Charles River as well. As for surface streets, the very notable ones (Mass Ave., Beacon, Commonwealth, Mem Drive, Storrow) definitely deserve to be listed as they're all long, major roads with historical significance -- I wouldn't cut out this section completely. Antony-22 (talk) 05:22, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
The streets could be pared, I agree. Good looking articles are a plus as well. A lot of the currently linked ones are articles User:SPUI started that are heavily redlinked as he left the project in 2007 in the middle of working on them. I'm afraid I scared the editor here, although he may simply not know what has happened. I didn't revert everywhere, just major articles, and contacted NCState at that point so I don't feel like that was too aggressive, just a loud "Whoa! Hold on a second!" I'm hoping we hear from him later today. Sswonk (talk) 05:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I saw your reply in your Talk page. You might want to be sure he sees it. Linking from his (or her) Talk page is probably a good idea. - Denimadept (talk) 14:12, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Yep, I was going to but external events had me in a rush so I waited until now, I am posting right after this. Sswonk (talk) 17:10, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Ok, I am creating what I call the "working area" below so that our various lists can be summarized and edited in a common place, no edit warring (not really expecting that) is a goal. I am filling in the areas, possibly over the course of a few edits, with my view of a consensus with a little editorializing of my own added. I am basing this area with the following standard in mind: Major - as defined by Mass EOT in the GIS files available on the state website - state highways within or interchanging with 93, 95 and 128 are included, all others can be navigated to by placing the list of numbered routes in the "See also" section. Route 203 is added because it is a state highway entirely within Boston. I think then that the title of the template itself can be tweeked a little, I haven't really come up with a rewording yet. I'm not linking all the articles, that can be done in maintenance later before the template is revised. Sswonk (talk) 18:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Working area[edit]

Template title[edit]

Road transportation infrastructure of Boston, Massachusetts

Interstates[edit]

Massachusetts Turnpike (I-90) • I-93 • I-95 •

US Highways[edit]

US 1 • US 3 • US 20

Massachusetts State Routes[edit]

Route 2 • Route 3 • Route 9 • Route 28 • Route 128 • Route 203

Parkways[edit]

TBD + Blue Hills Reservation Parkways

Bridges[edit]

Anderson Memorial Bridge • Charlestown Bridge • Eliot Bridge • Harvard Bridge • Leonard P. Zakim Bunker Hill Memorial Bridge • Longfellow Bridge • Tobin Bridge

Major Streets[edit]

Beacon Street • Commonwealth Avenue • Massachusetts Avenue • Memorial Drive • Storrow Drive +?TBD

See also[edit]

List of numbered routes in Massachusetts • Streets in Boston, Massachusetts + TBD

Transcluded working sample[edit]

(requested speedy deletion)

Comments area[edit]

Some suggested additions (where? probably "See also" for these): Central Artery, Big Dig, Southeast Expressway, East Boston Expressway, and the three tunnels. Parkways to include in "Parkways": Alewife Brook Parkway, Furnace Brook Parkway, Revere Beach Parkway, Fresh Pond Parkway, Mystic Valley Parkway, Quincy Shore DriveSswonk (talk) 18:33, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Inner belt? - Denimadept (talk) 19:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I think that is a good point. Another historical link might be Boston Post Road. Here are links to the four vehicular tunnels and also two more suggestions: either Tunnels or See also section: Callahan Tunnel, Sumner Tunnel, Ted Williams Tunnel, Thomas P. O'Neill Jr. Tunnel. For See also: Braintree Split, South Bay Interchange (needs sources, I've tried not much out there). Additional Parkways: Truman Parkway, VFW Parkway. Sswonk (talk) 22:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
BTW, I left out Leverett Circle Connector Bridge in the working area but I would like to point out that it is the largest of its type in the US, the problem is that although I know when I'm on it, many people driving it have probably not even realized it is not just a very long exit-entrance ramp. Sswonk (talk) 22:59, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I added a sandbox subpage to this one, Template_talk:Boston_Road_Transportation/Working sample. I think it is a little overstuffed but that is also why I hesitated to do this before on my own. Then again, if it is minimized by default, it may be a great addition, who knows? I expanded State Routes to include the other three routes which travel more than a just few hundred feet within Boston city limits. The major oddball inclusions in the template are 24 and 495, but they are expressways, it is just a sandbox. removed as out of scope Sswonk (talk) 13:04, 24 July 2009 (UTC) Any thoughts on the sample overall? Sswonk (talk) 03:51, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay, so we're sticking with route 128 as the outer bound. Fair enough. Also, we can always change it later if someone has issues. - Denimadept (talk) 15:01, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I wouldn't even say that. I think this should be about Boston and immediate surroundings. I-495 is the second longest 3-digit interstate at just over 120 miles and almost makes it to Cape Cod. Route 24 is a commuter road for southeastern Mass, not even sure what percentage of traffic actually make it to 93 in Randolph. The way it is at the sample page, it has Boston routes, streets, bridges, tunnels and related articles (including nearby historic parkways) and already it is getting larger than I think is ideal. The example of how it might end up otherwise that I want to avoid is {{Roads in Baltimore area}}, which includes roads like Maryland Route 137 in far northern horse country. 128 and inward is only used for parkways in our template with everything else being in the city limits at some point (Memorial Drive is close enough in my mind). I think compactness also tells a little of the story as well. Someone else can create an "Infrastructure of Boston's Technology belt" for that use, this should be Boston, there is more than enough content for it. Sswonk (talk) 16:10, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

(od) I copied the working sample to the main template and started taking it live in a few places. I also added a /doc page which explains how this template is for the city of Boston primarily. I'll also request that the working sample be speedy deleted so any updates that need to be made will be on the live template. Sswonk (talk) 02:58, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Excellent template, I would suggest ring roads including I495 and MA 128, while they are not in Boston they are a very important to the Boston region as the only two surviving ring roads. --Jeremy (blah blahI did it!) 03:55, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

MA 128 is in there. We specifically excluded anything outside of it. - Denimadept (talk) 04:29, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

New additions on 8/4[edit]

On 8/4/09, I added the following streets to this navbox:

Someone keeps reverting them on the basis that they are not "major" streets and that the list should be short, but many of these are indeed major streets. The articles may be stubs, but that does not mean the streets are not major. Without them in the navbox, many of these would otherwise be orphans, thereby reducing the likelihood of the getting much improvement in the near future. Sebwite (talk) 01:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Someone being me. These streets are not major and were intentionally left to be found via the link in the See also: section, Category:Streets in Boston, Massachusetts. You did not add Washington Street, it was already included. The entire round of early reversions of the addition of the original template, none of which were challenged, was accomplished specifically to address the issue of over stuffing the template with minor streets. The additions you made were edited out by consent and although you stated on my talk page that you read the discussion above thoroughly, I think you missed the major point agreed to which was to limit the list rather than encumber it. I do not want to revert and run afoul of 3RR, so I am asking you to revert and then make your points. In light of the desires of everyone here who mostly deal with Massachusetts roads, who took time to develop this, that would be the more polite way for you to promote your opinions here. Sswonk (talk) 01:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I do not believe that 4 lines of streets is "overstuffing." Yet many of these are clearly major streets. The point of this discussion is to find out what others have to say. Also, this is not all-or-none. I had added all those found in the category, but there may be a consensus to include some but not others. Let's wait and see. Sebwite (talk) 01:44, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Do you want me to tell you how many times I have walked Park, School, Milk and Yawkey Way in less time than it takes to know if they are major or not? The template was worked on over a week, and I am asking you to give us the same respect we gave to the development of the template. I will be happy to discuss it, but your method is counterproductive. It is not without reason that the list was kept short. Just go back to how it was and take the time to state your case for these additions before making them. This is the first time I have seen you assert your opinion on a lot of this so doing that one favor will be appreciated, and I think the others who helped here would appreciate it as well. There is no WP:DEADLINE to meet. Sswonk (talk) 01:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Length does not define a street as being major or not. A street can be quite short, yet be the home of some major landmarks, and therefore of high importance. On the contrary, it could be miles long, and have no significance at all. In my opinion, if it is notable enough to have an article, and it is found within a small city (in size), it should be listed here. The worst thing is, if the list would grow to hundreds of streets (which probably won't happen), the navbox could be split. Sebwite (talk) 04:40, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
If you hadn't pointed at a new discussion, I'd've reverted it again. You should've asked here first. You didn't. You didn't agree, apparently, with the discussion, so you did the WP:BOLD thing and then got upset when you were promptly reverted. Shocking. If another editor reverts you, you'd be best to understand why rather than just reverting again. The 3RR is a maximimum, not to say you shouldn't talk before even starting to edit war, but you did indeed edit war. I checked to see if you were an admin, with special rights, but you don't seem to be. Justify your rudeness, sir. - Denimadept (talk) 02:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Just to let you know, I may have reach 3, but I did not exceed that, so this does not violate 3RR. What's more, I continued to discuss this throughout. I first started by discussing with the reverter, but when I saw it needed to go further, I went and took the discussion here. Sebwite (talk) 04:40, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

This template is for road transportation, not all streets. The Jamaicaway probably belongs; I'm not sure if any others do. --NE2 02:38, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Re: Jamaicaway, if added, it could be added along with The Riverway and The Arborway under the Regional Parkways section as all three are connected and are DCR parkways. They are covered in the Emerald Necklace article. Two other Boston parkways are listed with others near Boston under "Regional Parkways" rather than under "Major Streets". Sswonk (talk) 04:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I feel that at least most of these do belong. Charles, Milk, and State Streets are definitely major streets in Downtown Boston, just to name a few. Sebwite (talk) 04:40, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
This isn't a template for major streets, but for major streets in the road transportation infrastructure. --NE2 04:44, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
What NE2 said. Sebwite, you seem to misunderstand this template. If you want to create an article List of streets in Boston, Massachusetts, that's your call, but this isn't it. - Denimadept (talk) 13:20, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
(ec) My suggestion, which will allow you to include all of the streets in the Category:Streets in Boston, Massachusetts and remove the orphan status problem, is to create a new template called Template:Streets and squares in Boston. Using the Category:Squares in Boston, Massachusetts in addition to the streets category, plus streets or squares articles that may not yet be categorized, and adding a link perhaps to Neighborhoods in Boston as a "See also:" or template footer, will capture the nature of the majority of the streets not listed in the Boston Road Transportation template here. Many of those streets we chose not to list are actually much more important as pedestrian thoroughfares than as road transportation infrastructure. If you want to take the "Streets and Squares" template project on, I will attempt to create a suitable graphic for the template similar to the "Entering Boston" corporate limit sign used here and of course help you with any questions you have. – Sswonk (talk) 13:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Strong support: This would be the perfect compromise. Meanwhile, this template could have a link to it in a see also section. Sebwite (talk) 18:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I am waiting to see if there are objections to this but it seems like it would work. For now, I have a couple of ideas basically involving color scheme and image. The color would complement others Boston templates which are blue, see Boston transportation, possibly a middle value between the blue and gray or a gray-green. For now the image I suggest is File:Boston6.JPG, which can be changed later to a sign image replicating those that adorn most squares in Boston with the File:BTD_CENTRE_ST_Sign.svg sign below it, altered to the name of a street that currently has an article. Sswonk (talk) 18:57, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
These are minor details that can be worked out later. Sebwite (talk) 00:31, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
I worked them out. The template {{Streets and squares in Boston}} is now active, I will add a documentation page later. Please go ahead and start adding it to the pages it contains. Also, please remember to consider the hard work of others and be more patient in the future. Sswonk (talk) 01:12, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Routes 16 and 60[edit]

The numbered state routes are restricted to ones within Boston corporate limits, with the lone exception of 128. 95 is concurrent with 128, so it is included. This is to avoid bloat and argument about which routes belong. The parkways, on the other hand, are linked together as a parkway system so it's appropriate to include them in a subsection entitled "regional parkways". We can discuss it, but the main feature of this list is that it is Boston, not Greater Boston, for a reason, that being discussed when the template was developed. Sswonk (talk) 02:43, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Metrication in MA[edit]

I've been on the look-out but I'm wondering if other people have noticed metricated signs in Massachusetts? This site makes it look like Massachusetts is falling behind the rest of the country in Metrication. Metric signs on roads in the U.S. CaribDigita (talk) 17:53, 27 February 2010 (UTC)