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Treatment of a literal "et al." in an author parameter[edit]

[Formerly titled: "|author=Alpha Beta, et al. -> |author=Alpha Beta|author2=et al.". Re-titled to remove templates. J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:23, 28 February 2015 (UTC)]

I searched the archive, and the only treatment (implied, at best) of this scenario I found was here, placing et al. in the (deprecated) |coauthors=et al. parameter. My gut says to do |author=Alpha Beta|author2=et al., so that a subsequent |author-link= will be properly displayed, and/or that someone will come along and enumerate the literal et al., but I wanted to check with you guys first.   ~ Tom.Reding (talkcontribsdgaf)  21:35, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I think that the use of |authorn=et al. should be discouraged because et al. is not an author's name and because, Module:Citation/CS1 not being very smart, the non-author et al. gets added to the COinS metadata as if it were an author's name. I have seen cases where other author names have been added after |authorn=et al. which makes no sense. Better, I think, would be to create some sort of parameter that might be used to explicitly add et al. to the author list when there are one or more authors identified: perhaps |et-al=yes or some such. The parameter would display all of the identified authors so its functionality would be distinctly different from |display-authors=.
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:33, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Which do you think has a more likely chance of happening, Module:Citation/CS1 properly removing/never-instating non-author et al. COinS metadata, or |et-al=yes being created?   ~ Tom.Reding (talkcontribsdgaf)  17:22, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
There is a feature request for us to do something about et al. in the author list but just what that something is, remains undecided. I choose to not speculate on which of the two things you mentioned is more likely. It could be one, the other, both, neither, perhaps something completely different?
Trappist the monk (talk) 01:23, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
In the meantime, would it be more useful to have |author=Alpha Beta|author2=et al. in the metadata, if and only if 1 author is explicitly named in the original |author= parameter, or for both to be contained in |author=Alpha Beta et al., identical to the n>2 case?   ~ Tom.Reding (talkcontribsdgaf)  23:02, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
When et al. is in its own |authorn= parameter, then the author metadata looks like this:
When it's combined, essentially two or more authors in a single |author= parameter, then the metadata looks like this:
To me, this second 'style' corrupts both & and &rft.aulast so the lesser of two evils is et al. in its own parameter.
Trappist the monk (talk) 23:45, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I am going to reiterate what Trappist said: use of |authorn=et al. should be discouraged. I will also expand: |author[n]= is for institutional or other "authors" whose names do not parse into first/last. Most authors have a definite last name - more precisely, a surname - which is the primary term for identification and sorting. This should be put into |last=, with the rest of the author's name in |first=.

I think it would make more sense if citation template builders made templates that were flexible, intuitive and open to the different ways that editors actually use them, instead of make templates strict and fixed to a number of arbitrary rules and subjective preferences. First of all you cannot expect editors to know the rules you invent or to read the documentation for the templates, and second you dont have any authority to limit or discourage particular ways of formatting references. Using "et al." in the author field is useful (sometimes it is hard and inconvenient to find all the different authornames or fit them in) and it is an intuitive solution for most basic users. It is a usage that is not likely to disappear. It would make more sense to make a template that could accommodate it than to create a rule discouraging i.t·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:35, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I think most of us would consider "first-name" and "last-name", and even the shortening to "first" and "last", pretty intuitive. Your "arbitrary rules and subjective preferences" presumably refers to standard bibliographical conventions as established by noted authorities (such as The Chicago Manual of Style), and hardly my "invention". Explicitly adding "et al." in a parameter is a misuse of a tool, and breaks the metadata, as Trappist explained above. As for any kind of template that would be flexible enough to accomodates every kind of misuse and misunderstanding: that would require some kind of mind-reading, with a dash of omniscience. I don't think our current technology is there yet. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:04, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Utter nonsense. First of all it is not misuse. Hardly anyone cares about the meta data. What readers and editors care about is the immediate visual output. It is misuse of the template function to build them so that it makes it harder for editors and readers to edit. Secondly you dont need to be mind readers you just need to pay attention to what people actually do instead of trying to establish rules for what you think they should do. My "arbitrary preferences" refer to the arbitrary choices that template editors think they have the right to make on the behalf of content editors which make some reference styles possible and others impossible - instead of accommodating the styles that editors actually use - including adding "et al" as a parameter.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 23:14, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Hey, if you don't like the templates that have been supplied, why don't you write your own? Let's see you develop a free-form template with absolutely no "rules" that always turns out absolutely correct and perfectly formated citations no matter how incompetent the input. I say you're a fool if you think you can do it (but feel free to demonstrate otherwise). And a jerk if you expect that others should. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:27, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

The only people who care about metadata are the people who use it. That is sufficient reason to not dismiss it out of hand.

I have tweaked Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox so that it detects a variety of forms of 'et al'; italicized or not, with or without a leading comma, with or without a terminal period. When any of the various forms are detected, they are stripped from that parameter before it is included in the metadata and a flag is set. The flag tells follow-on processes to include the static form of 'et al.' (same way that |display-authors= does). The code also handles the case when el al. is used in an editor name list. Et al. is presumed to be the last item in a parameter.

{{cite book/new |title=Title |author=Author, ''et al.''}}
Author et al. Title. 


<span class="citation book">Author et al. ''Title''.</span><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&" class="Z3988"><span style="display:none;">&nbsp;</span></span> <span class="citation-comment" style="display:none; color:#33aa33">CS1 maint: Explicit use of et al. ([[:Category:CS1 maint: Explicit use of et al.|link]])</span>

other variations:

{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=First, ''et al.''}}
Last, First et al. Title. 
{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=First |last2=''Et Al.''}}
Last, First et al. Title. 
{{cite book/new |title=Title |editor-last=Last |editor-first=First |editor-last2=''et al.''}}
Last, First et al. (ed.). Title. 
{{cite book/new |title=Title |author=Akhmet al-Hassan}} – should not find the et al in this (contrived) author name
Akhmet al-Hassan. Title. 

I'm inclined to make these conditions emit error messages and have a couple of additional parameters, perhaps |more-authors= and |more-editors=, which if set to yes or true would add the static 'et al.' text to the rendered citation; the parameters could be categorized so that those editors with the inclination, or a bot, could fill in the rest of the authors/editors.

Trappist the monk (talk) 18:20, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for being forthcoming in this, the problem with a special parameter to do it, is that the people who are likely to add "et al." the wrong place are also the most unlikely to be familiar with those specific parameters.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 18:57, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Why don't we put these in a tracking category for now and see what we have? Then we can decide how to go forward. insource:/=et al./ gets 4,026 hits but there are probably more variants. --  Gadget850 talk 19:06, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
I also support a maintenance category. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:45, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Ok, Category:CS1 maint: Explicit use of et al.
Trappist the monk (talk) 23:56, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
I generally favor this. But I confess I have used explicit 'et al.' (mainly in the GW articles). I guess it's time to find a better way. I hope it doesn't hurt too much. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:38, 14 March 2015 (UTC)


  • 王 二麻子, 홍 길동, ბენდელიანი ჭიჭიკო. "title".  Vancouver style error (help)

I think |name-list-format= should check whether name is Latin script or not. � is a replacement character. --Namoroka (talk) 12:27, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

For Vancouver style, according to Citing Medicine: The NLM Style Guide for Authors, Editors, and Publishers, names in non-Latin characters are to be Romanized; which see. That is not something that Module:Citation/CS1 can do. Lua treats multi-byte characters simply as a sequence of bytes.
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:04, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
I think there should be a formatted error messages, not unrecognized characters. Is that impossible?--Namoroka (talk) 15:01, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Something like this?
*{{cite news/new|title=title|name-list-format=vanc|last=王|first=二麻子|last2=홍|first2=길동|last3=ბენდელიანი|first3=ჭიჭიკო |last4=Smith |first4=Jon Jacob}}
王 二麻子, 홍 길동, ბენდელიანი ჭიჭიკო, Smith JJ. "title".  Vancouver style error (help)
I added Smith to prove that I hadn't broken anything. The test relies on the first character (byte) of |firstn= not being a Latin character in the set [A–Za–z].
We might want to make the error message more general and use the help text to describe the reason for the error in the event that there are other things that should be flagged as errors; for example if we attempt to merge {{vcite2 journal}} (Module:ParseVauthors) functionality into Module:Citation/CS1 ...
Pages with this error would be categorized in Category:CS1 errors: Vancouver style.
Trappist the monk (talk) 15:58, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Here's another edge case for testing:
*{cite news/new|title=title|name-list-format=vanc|last1=Smith |first1=Jon Jacob|last2=González|first2=Ángel}}
Smith JJ, González �. "title". 
The reference linked above says that letters with diacritical marks should have them removed, so the error message is accurate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:36, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
@Jonesey95: This is really silly. You have identified a problem that doesn't exist and the proposed solution is counter productive because it removes information and makes it more difficult to reuse citations. The original request above was to flag non-Latin text (MOS:ROMANIZATION) which I agree with. However diacritical marks are part of the extended Latin script (ISO/IEC 8859-1) and are allowed in Wikipedia (see MOS:DIACRITICS). How does following an archaic NLM guideline (that even PubMed which is run by the NLM no longer follows, see for example PMID: 15196329) help our readers and editors? Boghog (talk) 04:23, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it looks good.--Namoroka (talk) 05:29, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I've tweaked the code a bit so that the module gives an error message when |last= or |first= contains characters that are not in the ASCII character set plus spaces plus the hyphen. This will allow western hyphenated names and Hispanic multiple surnames

González �. "title". 
González A. "title". 
Gonzalez �. "title". 
Gonzalez A. "title". 
Gonzalez-Smith A. "title". 
Gonzalez Sanchez JM. "title". 

Trappist the monk (talk) 16:50, 18 February 2015 (UTC)


so we don't error when a surname given name has an apostrophe and when an initial is followed by a period:
O'Brien AD. "title".  (Alan D. O'Brien)
Hart D. "title".  (D'Arcy Hart)
to remove periods from surnames
St James CA. "title".  (Charles A. St. James
treat hyphens as spaces (Jean-Louis same as Jean Louis → JL):
Lagrot JL. "title".  (Jean-Louis Lagrot)

There is a requirement to place family rank (Jr, II, III, etc) after the initials as Jr, 2nd, 3rd, etc. When a rank is used directly in a CS1/CS2 template, an incorrect name may be rendered because the code interprets the 'Jr' as a second name. When the rank is an ordinal number, the code emits an error message because the digit is not in the set [A–Za–z]. Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox does not support family rank.

Lagrot JJ. "title".  |last1=Lagrot|first1=JL Jr
Lagrot JL 2nd. "title".  Vancouver style error (help) |last1=Lagrot|first1=JL 2nd

Some non-Latin characters are romanized into multiple Latin characters (Θ → Th) so that the romanized name 'G. Th. Tsakalos' should become 'Tsakalos GTh'. Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox does not support this form because it can't know that Th is a multi character romanization and not an abbreviation of Thomas:

Tsakalos GT. "title".  |last1=Tsakalos|first1=G. Th.

Trappist the monk (talk) 14:04, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

I have changed the error message from 'Author/editor name not Romanized' to the more generic 'Vancouver style error'. Is there a better error message?

Trappist the monk (talk) 15:16, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

I think that works, as long as the help link points to a clear explanation. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:37, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

cite map[edit]

In April 2014 Editor Imzadi1979 started a conversation with me on my talk page and another at WikiProject U.S. Roads regarding the migration of {{cite map}} to Module:Citation/CS1. Perhaps the time has come to consider what needs doing to make the migration.

There is some support for {{cite map}} that was done before my time:

Cite map compare
{{ cite map | map=New Map Showing the 8,880 Miles Which Comprise Colorado's Primary Highway System | type=Road map | via=Google Books | url= | date=July 1923 | oclc=11880590 | scale=Scale not given | issue=7 | publisher=Colorado State Highway Department | title=Colorado Highways | volume=2 | cartography=CSHD | pages=12–13 | accessdate=November 18, 2013 }}
Live "New Map Showing the 8,880 Miles Which Comprise Colorado's Primary Highway System" (Road map). Colorado Highways. Scale not given. Cartography by CSHD. Colorado State Highway Department 2. July 1923. pp. 12–13. OCLC 11880590. Retrieved November 18, 2013 – via Google Books. 
Sandbox "New Map Showing the 8,880 Miles Which Comprise Colorado's Primary Highway System" (Road map). Colorado Highways. Scale not given. Cartography by CSHD. Colorado State Highway Department 2. July 1923. pp. 12–13. OCLC 11880590. Retrieved November 18, 2013 – via Google Books. 

|map= and |mapurl= were added to the {{citation/core}} version as aliases of |chapter= after what support there is was added to Module:Citation/CS1.

Clearly WikiProject U.S. Roads should be notified of this discussion; who else?

Comments? Opinions?

Trappist the monk (talk) 19:46, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Cite map compare
{{ cite map | map=Michigan | section=B13 | isbn=0-528-00626-6 | scale=1 in=30 mi | inset=Western Upper Peninsula | year=2013 | cartography=Rand McNally | publisher=Rand McNally | title=The Road Atlas | author1=Rand McNally | location=Chicago | pages=50–51 | edition=2013 Walmart }}
Live Rand McNally (2013). "Michigan". The Road Atlas (2013 Walmart ed.). 1 in=30 mi. Cartography by Rand McNally. Chicago: Rand McNally. pp. 50–51. Western Upper Peninsula inset. § B13. ISBN 0-528-00626-6. 
Sandbox Rand McNally (2013). "Michigan" (Map). The Road Atlas (2013 Walmart ed.). 1 in=30 mi. Cartography by Rand McNally. Chicago: Rand McNally. pp. 50–51. Western Upper Peninsula inset. § B13. ISBN 0-528-00626-6. 
Cite map compare
{{ cite map | date=July 1, 1930 | author=Michigan State Highway Department | scale=Scale not given | publisher=Michigan State Highway Department | title=Official Highway Service Map | section=C3–C4 | location=Lansing, MI | inset=Detroit Area | cartography=H.M. Gousha }}
Live Michigan State Highway Department (July 1, 1930). Official Highway Service Map (Map). Scale not given. Cartography by H.M. Gousha. Lansing, MI: Michigan State Highway Department. Detroit Area inset. § C3–C4. 
Sandbox Michigan State Highway Department (July 1, 1930). Official Highway Service Map (Map). Scale not given. Cartography by H.M. Gousha. Lansing, MI: Michigan State Highway Department. Detroit Area inset. § C3–C4. 

Some thoughts I've had:

  1. For many (most?) maps, the publisher is the important detail on the same level as the author of a book. When the template was originally created, and before it was more fully moved into the CS1 scheme, that assumption meant that the publisher was listed first. I think that going forward, the template should discard that assumption and allow the full range of |authorn=, |firstn= |lastn= and |authorn-link= parameters, and the publisher should be shifted back into the order. If editors wish to list the publisher up front, they'll update articles to duplicate it in the appropriate author parameter. I would not repurpose |cartography= as an author.
  2. The |via= parameter needs to be added, which I assume would be something that module support would accommodate. As it is, we can't indicate that the map being linked is hosted by a different entity than its publisher.
  3. It would be better if the "(Map)." indicator "floated" a bit. In the example above, it follows the name of the journal (Colorado Highways) or the book (The Road Atlas) in which the map was published. That journal isn't the map, but rather the quoted title in the live output is, so the indicator should move to follow the quoted title in that case. In the case of sheet maps, the indicator should remain behind the italicized map |title= because there won't be a |map= defined.
    1. It would also be nice in some circumstances to allow an editor to override the default, say to explicitly note that if something were a "Topographic map" or an "Aerial survey".
  4. The edition should follow the italicized title and not have the scale and cartography information come between the two.
  5. Where the page(s), inset, and section(s) are noted, they should be displayed in that order, which ranks them in size order. Also, we should consider adding |sections= to provide the plural form of the label. I would suggest we consider using the section mark (§) as a label, with the plural (§§) as well.
  6. Something I suggested elsewhere would simplify a situation here. Maps can be published in a journal or in a book or atlas. As such, we have a need to use either the "V (I): p" format of a journal or the "p./pp. #" format of a book citation. I'd personally like to see us insert the "p." or the "pp." in front of a page number or range anytime that a volume or volume and issue aren't defined. If we did that, then the map template could assume it was within a journal because the lack of a volume or issue would prompt the "p." or "pp." to appear. In any case, the in-source location should be ordered: volume, issue, page(s), inset, section(s).

Imzadi 1979  04:32, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I've added |map=, |map-url=, and |mapurl= as pseudo-aliases of |chapter=.
From your list:
Item 2, |via= already available in the module.
Item 3.1, use |type=; this has always been available (see the first comparison above where |type=Road map).
In the module, after a bit of processing we come to a place where all of these meta parameters are concatenated into a single string separated by the separator character (period for CS1 or comma for CS2). There is one version for 'book-like' citations and another for 'journal-like' citations:
TitleNote – this is |department=; not needed for {{cite map}}?
Conference – not needed for {{cite map}}?
Others – not needed for {{cite map}}?
Agency – not needed for {{cite map}}?
This list of things seems sort of odd to me. For example, Chapter isn't listed here. It is lumped together with Authors, Date, Chapter, Place, Editors but Others is in this group. One would think that contributors would all be in the same group and title components would be in another group.
Ignoring the author/editor/date/chapter-as-map-alias group and the in-source location group (page, inset, section) for the time being, let us confine ourselves to the 'Title' list only for the time being. What is the preferred order of these parameters? If different orders make sense for different citations (sheet map, journal, atlas, book, other), then make multiple lists. It is not necessary to include all of the items in the list; you might even add new items if it makes sense to do so.
Trappist the monk (talk) 14:52, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Ok, I'm a bit confused by what you asked at the end, but I'll go with what I think you're asking. In terms of output, CS1 is heavily based on the APA style, but the APA manual isn't terribly helpful with the lone example it gives. My general thoughts are to emulate what this page from NCSU Libraries suggests for APA style and pair it with how {{cite book}} handles the order of things.
There are only a few things that are map-specific: the scale of the map, the name of the cartography source, then the inset or map section as part of the in-source location. So basically, if we followed the order from a book citation, we'd be 90% there. The scale, as NCSU says, would come immediately before the series. I would then include the cartography information, if supplied, next before any |others= output. (I would imagine that other contributions would be rare, but why omit the possibility?) As for |agency=, I could foresee noting that a map out of a newspaper came through the Associated Press if someone were so incline to specifically cite just a map from a newspaper article. Looking at a book citation:
  • Author (2015). Title. Book Series. Other contribution by someone else. Place: publisher. 
So basically that if we used that same order, but put the map scale in between the title and the series, and a cartographer precedes any other "others". Wrap it up with the in-source location (volume/issue/page/inset/section), the various identifiers (ISBN/OCLC/etc) as well as the |access-date= |via= and archive-related information.
I guess in other words, a good map citation should look like a good book citation, but the default (or customized) type should float depending on if we are citing a |map= in a |title= or just a |title= alone. Using cite book as a mock up:
  • Rand McNally (2013). "Michigan". The Road Atlas (Map). 1 in=30 mi. Cartography by Rand McNally (2013 Walmart ed.). Chicago: Rand McNally. pp. 50–51, Western Upper Peninsula inset, § B13. ISBN 0-528-00626-6. 
  • Michigan State Highway Department (July 1, 1930). Official Highway Service Map (Map). Scale not given. Cartography by H.M. Gousha. Lansing, MI: Michigan State Highway Department. Detroit Area inset, §§ C3–C4. 
  • U.S. Geological Survey (1999) [Photorevised 1993]. Raleigh West quadrangle, North Carolina (Map). 1:24,000. 7.5 Minute Series. Cartography by USGS. Reston, VA: U.S. Geological Survey. 
I'd only make two changes: in the atlas example, the "(Map)." should go after the map title because The Road Atlas isn't a map, but a book while "Michigan" the title of the map, and the edition should really follow the title (which it should for books anyway) because it's modifying the title and not the series or contributions of other people. The latter though is a criticism I'd have of the {{cite book}} in general though. This sets aside the other issue of how to deal with maps in journals for the volume/issue/page vs. just page in a book. Imzadi 1979  16:47, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
What I wanted was a list of the meta parameters in order. I have tweaked the code and created three lists that look like this:
For maps in a book:
TitleType, Title, Format, Scale, Cartography, Others, Edition, Publisher, Series, Language, Volume
For maps in a periodical:
TitleType, Title, Format, Scale, Cartography, Others, Publisher, Series, Language, Volume, Issue
For sheet maps:
Title, TitleType, Format, Scale, Cartography, Others, Edition, Publisher, Series, Language
You can see the effect of this change in the comparisons above (ignore punctuation, spacing, and other weirdnesses; we'll fix those later).
Trappist the monk (talk) 17:46, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Cite map compare
{{ cite map | date=1999 | scale=1:24,000 | publisher=U.S. Geological Survey | series=7.5 Minute Series | cartography=USGS | title=Raleigh West quadrangle, North Carolina | author1=U.S. Geological Survey | location=Reston, VA | language=fr | orig-year=Photorevised 1993 }}
Live U.S. Geological Survey (1999) [Photorevised 1993]. Raleigh West quadrangle, North Carolina (Map). 1:24,000. 7.5 Minute Series (in French). Cartography by USGS. Reston, VA: U.S. Geological Survey. 
Sandbox U.S. Geological Survey (1999) [Photorevised 1993]. Raleigh West quadrangle, North Carolina (Map). 1:24,000. 7.5 Minute Series (in French). Cartography by USGS. Reston, VA: U.S. Geological Survey. 
Ignoring the spacing and punctuation weirdness, that's pretty much looking good to me so far for maps , except that Series should be appear between Scale and Cartography. (In a book, the Series appears after the Title and before Others.) I'm neutral over where Language appears. Imzadi 1979  19:43, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment: I have posted a link to this discussion on the Talk pages of half a dozen WikiProjects that appear to be active and (in my judgement, based on the articles transcluding this template) may have an interest in the use and formatting of this template. We have had objections in the past about decisions made by one of two editors, and I'd like to avoid those objections in the case of this template, which is used in 18,000 articles. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Tweaks that I think get the spacing and punctuation right, add |sections=, use § and §§ for sections:

  • "New Map Showing the 8,880 Miles Which Comprise Colorado's Primary Highway System" (Road map). Colorado Highways. Scale not given. Cartography by CSHD. Colorado State Highway Department 2. July 1923. pp. 12–13. OCLC 11880590. Retrieved November 18, 2013 – via Google Books. 
  • Rand McNally (2013). "Michigan" (Map). The Road Atlas (2013 Walmart ed.). 1 in=30 mi. Cartography by Rand McNally. Chicago: Rand McNally. pp. 50–51. Western Upper Peninsula inset. § B13. ISBN 0-528-00626-6. 
  • Official Highway Service Map (Map). Scale not given. Cartography by H.M. Gousha. Lansing, MI: Michigan State Highway Department. July 1, 1930. Detroit Area inset. §§ C3–C4. 
  • U.S. Geological Survey (1999) [Photorevised 1993]. Raleigh West quadrangle, North Carolina (Map). 1:24,000. 7.5 Minute Series (in French). Cartography by USGS. Reston, VA: U.S. Geological Survey. 

See also Template:Cite_map/testcases.

Trappist the monk (talk) 16:43, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Looks good to me so far, and I think that we have just a few things left to sort out.
  1. Figuring out the formatting with volume/issue/page in periodicals vs. volume/page in books. I know you know about it, but I'm just listing it here to keep this complete.
  2. Are we putting in support for |agency= and |others=? I realized a case where the latter may be employed: noting a translator.
  3. We'll need a |map-format= as the companion to |format= to note when maps online are in PDF or MrSID files. (The latter definitely requires special software to use.)
  4. I'm thinking that the |language= should remain following the series as it is in book citations. It looks somewhat odd following the publisher.
Let's just say that so far I'm quite pleased with the rapid progress into making this work, and I think that we'll be well on our way to implementation if other editors don't object. From me, I appreciate your work, Trappist the monk. Imzadi 1979  17:22, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
  1. Volume/issue/page is a separate topic I think because its resolution would apply to all CS1/CS2 templates.
  2. |others= is supported and follows |cartography=. If we are to support |agency= it should only apply to the periodical version of {{cite map}}.
  3. Added |map-format=
  4. moved |langage= to follow |series=.
Do you have any 'periodical' style map citations? (magazine, journals, etc) There don't appear to be any on the test cases page.
Trappist the monk (talk) 12:32, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
The first example you used is a map printed in the journal Colorado Highways. So far it's the only one I've run into that I needed to cite properly with volume/issue/pages, but that doesn't mean that other editors won't run into them. It should have "2 (7): 12–13" as its page reference (to match what {{cite journal}} would do), which would then be followed by an inset, if appropriate (there aren't insets on that particular map), and sections (it lacks a grid marking off sections), also if appropriate. Imzadi 1979  14:22, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
That first cite is written as a chapter/book-style citation:
{{cite map/new |type=Road map |publisher=Colorado State Highway Department |date=July 1923 |map=New Map Showing the 8,880 Miles Which Comprise Colorado's Primary Highway System |map-url= |title=Colorado Highways |scale= Scale not given |cartography=CSHD |volume=2 |issue=7 |pages=12–13 |oclc=11880590 |accessdate= November 18, 2013 |via= Google Books}}
"New Map Showing the 8,880 Miles Which Comprise Colorado's Primary Highway System" (Road map). Colorado Highways. Scale not given. Cartography by CSHD. Colorado State Highway Department 2. July 1923. pp. 12–13. OCLC 11880590. Retrieved November 18, 2013 – via Google Books. 
Rewriting it as a periodical-style cite (change |title= to |journal= and |map= to |title=):
{{cite map/new |type=Road map |publisher=Colorado State Highway Department |date=July 1923 |title=New Map Showing the 8,880 Miles Which Comprise Colorado's Primary Highway System |url= |journal=Colorado Highways |scale= Scale not given |cartography=CSHD |volume=2 |issue=7 |pages=12–13 |oclc=11880590 |accessdate= November 18, 2013 |via= Google Books}}
"New Map Showing the 8,880 Miles Which Comprise Colorado's Primary Highway System" (Road map). Colorado Highways. Scale not given. Cartography by CSHD (Colorado State Highway Department) 2 (7). July 1923: 12–13. OCLC 11880590. Retrieved November 18, 2013 – via Google Books. 
and there you get the {{cite journal}}-like volume/issue/page style.
We really shouldn't need to 'remap' |map= et al. to achieve this effect. I'll think on that.
Trappist the monk (talk) 14:49, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
A ha. Hmm, I guess then that I'd support the use of |journal= over |title= to invoke the journal-style page display and leave |map= as is. The question then should be, do we need a |atlas= or |book-title= as an alias for dealing with maps in books, just to minimize possible confusion? Then an editor could specify map/journal or map/atlas.
Also, I noticed that if an author isn't specified through the normal means, then {{cite map/new}} is still shifting the publisher forward, but if |location= is specified, it's "hanging out" in the middle of the citation without something to follow it. I know Scott5114 below has objected, but we really need to either have the template copy |publisher= into both places (and retain |publisher-link= to link the version displayed as the author), or we need to break this behavior and force editors to manually specify the author(s), even if that means manually duplicating the publisher to keep the desired effect. Imzadi 1979  15:52, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
One thing at a time please.
Changing how we use the various parameters in extant cites doesn't seem like the best of ideas. I would guess that most {{cite map}} use |title= to refer to the title of the map. We introduce |map= and its companion parameters for the case where |title= is used for the atlas or book title. In {{cite journal}} we use |title= to name the article and |periodical= (or an alias) to name the periodical (journal, magazine, or what have you). If the goal is to make {{cite map}} act like {{cite journal}} when the map is in a periodical, then we should use |title= and |periodical=.
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:28, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I have moved |edition= in the cases where the citation is for a map in a book and a stand-alone map (|edition= doesn't apply to periodicals):

Cite map compare
{{ cite map | map=Michigan | section=B13 | isbn=0-528-00626-6 | scale=1 in=30 mi | inset=Western Upper Peninsula | year=2013 | cartography=Rand McNally | publisher=Rand McNally | title=The Road Atlas | author1=Rand McNally | location=Chicago | pages=50–51 | edition=2013 Walmart }}
Live Rand McNally (2013). "Michigan". The Road Atlas (2013 Walmart ed.). 1 in=30 mi. Cartography by Rand McNally. Chicago: Rand McNally. pp. 50–51. Western Upper Peninsula inset. § B13. ISBN 0-528-00626-6. 
Sandbox Rand McNally (2013). "Michigan" (Map). The Road Atlas (2013 Walmart ed.). 1 in=30 mi. Cartography by Rand McNally. Chicago: Rand McNally. pp. 50–51. Western Upper Peninsula inset. § B13. ISBN 0-528-00626-6. 

This, I think answers items 1–5 in Editor Imzadi1979's list of things to change.

Trappist the monk (talk) 13:53, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

I have to strongly oppose any change to this template that would move the publisher information away from the beginning of the citation. This is usually the only way of identifying a particular map, since most of them are just titled after the geographic area they cover. ("Map of Oklahoma". Which map of Oklahoma? The Esso map.) Burying this key information in the middle of the citation for no good reason decreases the utility of the template's output. (Consistency with other templates is not a good reason in this case—maps are different than other sources and should be treated as such.)

It should be noted that the reason the cartography field exists at all is because sometimes a map is published under the branding of one company but the actual map is contracted out to another. This is most frequently encountered with U.S. gas station maps of the 20th century, which were essentially Rand McNally or H.M. Gousha maps bearing the branding of Texaco, Esso, Standard Oil, etc. Seldom are the actual people that did the cartography credited publicly, so that is not the use case the template was intending to address. —Scott5114 [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 21:11, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

And by citing "Esso" as the author in addition to the publisher with Rand McNally or H.M. Gousha as the cartographer, you've just negated that issue. The |cartography= field has not been removed in the sandboxed version. Imzadi 1979  22:53, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
@Scott5114: if you look at the test cases page, the publisher=author automation hasn't been removed yet, so unless we also specify |author=Rand McNally in case #8, we get "Chicago" just floating along in the middle of the citation output when it really should be joined as "Chicago: Rand McNally" to make more sense. Currently specifying any author parameters (last/first or author, with or without author-link) breaks this assumption that the publisher is the author and shifts the publisher value to the appropriate location. We either have two options to get the publisher displayed in the appropriate location with the place of publication:
  1. Permanently remove the assumption and require editors to do the more correct action by specifying an author, which in your editing would mean the publisher is manually duplicated to appear in both parameters in almost all cases, or
  2. We reinstate a briefly used bit of coding that automatically moves the publisher to the author field as now, and then also displays it in the appropriate location in the middle of the citation.
The latter option is messy when the publisher is linked. Trappist would know better if cite map is creating messy metadata at the moment, but I suspect that we are creating screwed up metadata. Imzadi 1979  14:22, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Are we done? Have we done all that needs doing to migrate {{cite map}} to Module:Citation/CS1?

Trappist the monk (talk) 14:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Everything looks good by me. Just let me know when we have some time table for implementing so I know when I should start updating some articles and other templates. Imzadi 1979  19:32, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Probably on or before the Ides of March.
Trappist the monk (talk) 19:55, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Categories in the existing template[edit]

Please note that there are two maintenance categories in the existing template that may need to be considered in this migration: Category:Pages using cite map with both series and version and Category:Pages using cite map with publisher-link. – Jonesey95 (talk) 07:14, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

There are six pages listed at Category:Pages using cite map with both series and version that have citations that look a lot like this:
Cite map compare
{{ cite map | scale=1:10,560 | url= | publisher=Ordnance Survey | title=England - Lincolnshire | date=1891 | version=Epoch 1 | series=County series | sheet=115/NE }}
Live England - Lincolnshire (Map). 1:10,560. County series. Ordnance Survey. 1891.  Unknown parameter |sheet= ignored (help); More than one of |version= and |series= specified (help)
Sandbox England - Lincolnshire (Map). 1:10,560. County series. Ordnance Survey. 1891. Sheet 115/NE.  More than one of |version= and |series= specified (help)
It seems to me that, at least for these six, |series= and |version= could be combined into |series=County series Epoch 1. It isn't clear to me if Epoch 1 is something that Ordnance Survey used in naming the map series or if that is something applied by British History. See here. |sheet= isn't a supported parameter in either the old or the new template.
The other article-space page has this:
Cite map compare
{{ cite map | archiveurl= | isbn=9780319238332 | scale=1:25 000 | trans_title= | cartography= | section=Bottesford & Colsterworth | url= | pages= | edition= | archivedate= | ref= | format= | id= | language= | page=247 | title=Grantham | inset= | publisher=OSGB | year= | version=A1 | location= | series=Explorer | date=03/04/2006 | accessdate= }}
Live Grantham (Map). 1:25 000. Explorer. OSGB. 03/04/2006. p. 247. § Bottesford & Colsterworth. ISBN 9780319238332.  More than one of |version= and |series= specified (help); Check date values in: |date= (help)
Sandbox Grantham (Map). 1:25 000. Explorer. OSGB. 03/04/2006. p. 247. § Bottesford & Colsterworth. ISBN 9780319238332.  More than one of |version= and |series= specified (help); Check date values in: |date= (help)
which appears to me to be a malformed citation. Follow the ISBN link to Amazon to look at the map.
There is a note at the top of Category:Pages using cite map with publisher-link that says "This parameter is in the process of being removed." If that is true, then an AWB script should be able to make pretty quick work of clearing the category.
Trappist the monk (talk) 14:04, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Based on the example citations, it looks like citations in the "both series and version" category would end up in the CS1 redundant parameter category, and citations with |publisher-link= would end up in the "unsupported parameter" category.
Cite map compare
{{ cite map | publisher-link=Iowa Department of Transportation | publisher=Iowa Department of Transportation | title=Iowa Highway Map | scale=1:10,000 | date=1974 }}
Live Iowa Highway Map (Map). 1:10,000. Iowa Department of Transportation. 1974.  Unknown parameter |publisher-link= ignored (help)
Sandbox Iowa Highway Map (Map). 1:10,000. Iowa Department of Transportation. 1974.  Unknown parameter |publisher-link= ignored (help)

As long as we track them somehow with the new code (which it looks like we do), I'm satisfied.
An AWB script may not suffice to clear up publisher-link parameters. I have found a few of them in template code. I'll poke through that category. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:49, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
The |version= might be analogous to a different |edition= of the map. It's something worth investigating slightly, and that might be the first to make it "(Epoch 1 ed.)." in the display of the citation. Imzadi 1979  17:00, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
@Trappist the monk, Jonesey95: the |publisher-link= parameter was put in use to deal with the author/publisher situation. If there is no author defined in any of the usual ways (|author= |first= |last=, etc) then the value of |publisher= is moved into the authorship position. However, for a brief period of time, the |publisher= was merely copied, and the value was also displayed in the traditional publisher location in the middle of the citation, following a |location=. In that brief period of time, |publisher-link= was added to serve as the analog of |author-link= so that one could link the name of the "publisher as author" without also linking the "publisher as publisher" output. Otherwise we'd have forced editors to insert the brackets to wikilink the publisher name, and it would be linked in both locations.
So, moving forward, we're going to have 3 basic options:
  1. Status quo: publisher is shifted automatically, and if the |location= is defined, it appears alone in the middle, disconnected from the publisher unless an editor also defines |author=.
  2. Restore the once-used version of the automation where the publisher appeared in both locations ("as author", "as publisher"), and un-deprecate |publisher-link= so that the "as author" portion of the citation can be linked without also linking the "as publisher" location.
  3. Remove the coding that moves the publisher forward and require editors to specify an author (which doesn't have to be the |cartography= name) if they want some name to appear ahead of the map title.
Imzadi 1979  16:16, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
As another alternative, discard |publisher-link= as unneeded and simply wikilink |publisher=[[<value]] just as we would do in all other CS1 templates. When |author= is not set, the code still copies the value from |publisher= to |author=. If |location= is set then strip wikilink markup from |publisher=; if |location= not set then delete |publisher=. These examples illustrate:
  1. wikilinked publisher (Map). Publisher. 
  2. wikilinked publisher and location (Map). Location: Publisher. 
  3. publisher (Map). Publisher. 
  4. publisher and location (Map). Location: Publisher. 
  5. Author. author, wikilinked publisher (Map). Publisher. 
  6. Author. author, wikilinked publisher, and location (Map). Location: Publisher. 
Trappist the monk (talk) 17:24, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
The code that did this has been disabled at this edit
Trappist the monk (talk) 00:29, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
AWB is equally at home in Template space as in main space. There is, apparently some dispute about what to do with |publisher-link=. See the second paragraph of Editor Imzadi1979's 2015-02-25T15:52UTC post above. It would seem that if there is no |location= then |publisher= becomes |author= and |publisher-link= becomes |author-link= and Bob's your uncle. Not quite so simple if |location= is set; and this is where some thinking is probably still required.
Trappist the monk (talk) 16:10, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Publisher vs. Author issue[edit]

Compare the following examples, all citing the same map in the same atlas used as a source in the M-553 (Michigan highway) article:

Publisher, location, but no author:

Cite map compare
{{ cite map | map=Forsyth T45N R25W | via=Historic Map Works | location=Rockford, IL | scale=1.25 in:1 mi | oclc=15326667 | page=17 | cartography=Rockford Map Publishers ''c'' | publisher=Rockford Map Publishers ''p'' | year=1962 | section=2, 3, 10, 11, 14, 15, 22, 23 | mapurl= | title=Plat Book with Index to Owners, Marquette County, Michigan | accessdate=March 29, 2012 }}
Live "Forsyth T45N R25W". Plat Book with Index to Owners, Marquette County, Michigan. 1.25 in:1 mi. Cartography by Rockford Map Publishers c. Rockford, IL: Rockford Map Publishers p. 1962. p. 17. § 2, 3, 10, 11, 14, 15, 22, 23. OCLC 15326667. Retrieved March 29, 2012 – via Historic Map Works. 
Sandbox "Forsyth T45N R25W" (Map). Plat Book with Index to Owners, Marquette County, Michigan. 1.25 in:1 mi. Cartography by Rockford Map Publishers c. Rockford, IL: Rockford Map Publishers p. 1962. p. 17. § 2, 3, 10, 11, 14, 15, 22, 23. OCLC 15326667. Retrieved March 29, 2012 – via Historic Map Works. 

Publisher, author and location:

Cite map compare
{{ cite map | map=Forsyth T45N R25W | via=Historic Map Works | title=Plat Book with Index to Owners, Marquette County, Michigan | oclc=15326667 | scale=1.25 in:1 mi | author=Rockford Map Publishers ''a'' | page=17 | cartography=Rockford Map Publishers ''c'' | publisher=Rockford Map Publishers ''p'' | year=1962 | section=2, 3, 10, 11, 14, 15, 22, 23 | mapurl= | location=Rockford, IL | accessdate=March 29, 2012 }}
Live Rockford Map Publishers a (1962). "Forsyth T45N R25W". Plat Book with Index to Owners, Marquette County, Michigan. 1.25 in:1 mi. Cartography by Rockford Map Publishers c. Rockford, IL: Rockford Map Publishers p. p. 17. § 2, 3, 10, 11, 14, 15, 22, 23. OCLC 15326667. Retrieved March 29, 2012 – via Historic Map Works. 
Sandbox Rockford Map Publishers a (1962). "Forsyth T45N R25W" (Map). Plat Book with Index to Owners, Marquette County, Michigan. 1.25 in:1 mi. Cartography by Rockford Map Publishers c. Rockford, IL: Rockford Map Publishers p. p. 17. § 2, 3, 10, 11, 14, 15, 22, 23. OCLC 15326667. Retrieved March 29, 2012 – via Historic Map Works. 

Author, location, but no publisher:

Cite map compare
{{ cite map | map=Forsyth T45N R25W | via=Historic Map Works | title=Plat Book with Index to Owners, Marquette County, Michigan | scale=1.25 in:1 mi | author=Rockford Map Publishers ''a'' | page=17 | oclc=15326667 | cartography=Rockford Map Publishers ''c'' | year=1962 | section=2, 3, 10, 11, 14, 15, 22, 23 | mapurl= | location=Rockford, IL | accessdate=March 29, 2012 }}
Live Rockford Map Publishers a (1962). "Forsyth T45N R25W". Plat Book with Index to Owners, Marquette County, Michigan. 1.25 in:1 mi. Cartography by Rockford Map Publishers c. Rockford, IL. p. 17. § 2, 3, 10, 11, 14, 15, 22, 23. OCLC 15326667. Retrieved March 29, 2012 – via Historic Map Works. 
Sandbox Rockford Map Publishers a (1962). "Forsyth T45N R25W" (Map). Plat Book with Index to Owners, Marquette County, Michigan. 1.25 in:1 mi. Cartography by Rockford Map Publishers c. Rockford, IL. p. 17. § 2, 3, 10, 11, 14, 15, 22, 23. OCLC 15326667. Retrieved March 29, 2012 – via Historic Map Works. 

In each of the examples, I added an italicized a, c, or p to note when "Rockford Map Publishers" is defined as an |author=, |cartography= source or |publisher=, respectively. Ignore the changes related to where "(Map)." is located, the change from "section" to "§", and the inclusion of the |via= in the following discussion.

In the first comparison, no |author= is defined. The current template, and its sandbox behave identically. The publisher is shifted forward to take the place of an author, and the location appears alone in the middle of the citation. In this case, there is effectively no publisher noted because of that shift.

In the middle comparison, |author= is defined. In this case, the author is displayed up front, and the publisher appears in the middle of the citation after the location, as expected in the sandbox. The live template ignores the value for the publisher, as you can see, because that value is superfluous because we have something else to display up front for an author.

In the last comparison, the live template is ignoring the |author=, and because there isn't a |publisher= to take its place, there is nothing listed in the author location. As a result, the year appears in the middle of the citation after the location. In the sandbox, the template isn't ignoring the |author=, so it appears where we expect, followed by the year. Because there is no |publisher=, the location stands alone, also as expected.

This is the more fundamental question of template output behavior that needs to be resolved before discussing |publisher-link=. Imzadi 1979  16:46, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I am totally confused. Please, briefly and succinctly, state the fundamental question. My simple little brain is apparently incapable of extracting the fundamental question from what you've just written.
Trappist the monk (talk) 16:41, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
The fundamental question boils down to how the template will deal with this confusion over the proper role of citing an author (or authors) and publisher. Until that is resolved, totally deprecating |publisher-link= may be an effort in futility because the parameter may be needed after all.
The only situation that currently gets it "correct" is the sandbox when the author and the publisher are separately specified. If both are not provided, we are getting results that are visually inconsistent with the rest of the CS1 templates. In the sandbox, if an author (or set of authors) is not provided, the publisher is moved forward, but then we don't have something displayed where the publisher should be displayed.
So either we need to break this crazy "publisher as author" automated behavior and force editors to manually specify the author of a map, which usually is the same entity as the publisher, or we need to re-add the code that duplicates the publisher into both roles unless the author(s) is/are specified to override that behavior. Imzadi 1979  18:58, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
If I understand you, the fundamental question is:
Shall {{cite map}} place the map's publisher in the author position of the rendered citation when |<author alias>= is empty or omitted?
If that is the question, then my answer is no. If it is up to me, special cases in the code, and hence special cases in operation and documentation shall be avoided.
Is that the fundamental question? If so, your answer is? If not, please restate the question.
Trappist the monk (talk) 19:52, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
And my answer, for a few years now, has been that the publisher should not be a direct replacement for the author. On that much, we both agree. Furthermore, if editors want to indicate that X company or Y agency both authored and published a map, then they need to list that name twice so that it appears in both places. Imzadi 1979  22:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Ok. I've disabled the code that moves publisher to author when author not present.
Trappist the monk (talk) 00:25, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Something to note, but these plat atlases were published with written text and advertising solicited from the local 4H program and the appropriate county office/agency, and most library catalogs actually list those two entities as the authors of the book. Rockford Map Publishers just drew the maps using that text and printed the books. As it stands, the role of the 4H program and the county has had to be ignored because the design choices made years ago with the template and carried forward to the initial {{citation/core}} conversion forced us to discount the possibility that there could be separate authorship, cartography and publication of a map source. Imzadi 1979  16:57, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

If multiple authors are to be credited, then in the sandbox version, all of them may be listed as |author=Rockford Map Publishers |author2=Illinois 4H ... In this case, the publisher will not be moved to the author position. Isn't this what you wanted?
Trappist the monk (talk) 16:41, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, basically, but if an author or authors are not specified, we're not getting an output which also notes who the publisher is, because that spot is left empty when the publisher is moved into the author position. Imzadi 1979  18:58, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
You wanted to list Rockford, 4H, and the county as authors and also list Rockford as publisher. The {{citation/core}} version of {{cite map}} does not support that but the sandbox does. Whether we continue to move publisher data into the author position when there is no author data is irrelevant to this case because when there is author data, publisher data is not moved into the author position.
Trappist the monk (talk) 19:52, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Geological maps?[edit]

I have not been attending to all of the above because I generally cite geological maps, for which {{cite map}} has been wholly unsatisfactory. (I use {{citation}} in a somewhat hacked form.) However, I wonder if there might be some interest in getting citation/cite map into a form (eventually) of making it more satisfactory for use with geological maps, which are generally cited in a more scholarly form. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:34, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

@J. Johnson: I'm slightly confused. The changes being made are will make the output follow the general format for the APA citation style for maps, using the same general changes you'd find between CS1/CS2 and APA for things like books, journals and the like.
Compare the following examples from Western Washington University:
  • Sheet map:
    • Metsker Maps. (1979). Metsker's map of Island county, Washington [map]. (ca. 1:70,000.) Tacoma, WA: Metsker Maps.
    • Metsker Maps (1979). Metsker's Map of Island County, Washington (Map). c. 1:70,000. Tacoma, WA: Metsker Maps. 
  • Sheet map in a series:
    • Easterbrook, D. J. (1976). Geologic map of western Whatcom County, Washington [map]. 1:62,500. Miscellaneous investigations series, map 1-854-B. Reston, VA: U.S. Geological Survey.
    • Easterbrook, D. J. (1976). Geologic Map of Western Whatcom County, Washington (Map). 1:62,500. Miscellaneous investigations series, map 1-854-B. Reston, VA: U.S. Geological Survey. 
  • Map from an atlas:
    • Magocsi, P. R. (2003). Population movements, 1944–1948 [map]. 1:8 890 000. In P. R. Magocsi, Historical atlas of central Europe. (Rev. & ex. ed.) Seattle: University of Washington Press. (p. 53).
    • Magocsi, P. R. (2003). "Population Movements, 1944–1948" (Map). Historical Atlas of Central Europe (Rev. & ex. ed.). 1:8 890 000. Cartography by P. R. Magocsi. Seattle: University of Washington Press. p. 53. 
  • Map from a periodical:
    • Clout H. (2006). Figure 2: France: Types of countryside [map]. Scale not given. In H. Clout. Rural France in the new millennium: Change and challenge. Geography, 91, 207.
    • Clout, H. (2006). "Figure 2: France: Types of countryside" (Map). Geography. Scale not given. Cartography by H. Clout 91: 207. 
  • Online map:
    • U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service [cartographer]. (2009). Cahaba River Natural Refuge [map]. 1:24,000. Retrieved from
    • U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (2009). Cahaba River Natural Refuge (PDF) (Map). 1:24,000. Cartography by U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Retrieved March 14, 2015. 
Overall, the new template will follow the general format from {{cite book}}, but it will also handle in-source citations in a journal with volume/issue/page numbers in the same output format as {{cite journal}}. The template will also handle noting insets and map sections right after the volume/issue/page number; those things very common on road maps printed as sheet maps or road atlases as part of the in-source location. After that, we get the usual suite of potentialID numbers (ISBNs/ISSNs/JSTOR/OCLCs/etc) as well as the |access-date=, archival information and even |via=.
About the only thing it doesn't handle that APA shows is the name of the article containing a map in a periodical, and it appears the |editor-first= |editor-last= aren't working either. Those could be added though. So what is it that you'd need for geological maps? Imzadi 1979  23:35, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Example of |editor-first= and |editor-last= not working?
Trappist the monk (talk) 23:59, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
I tried this for an example above while editing it:
  • Magocsi, P. R. (2003). "Population Movements, 1944–1948" (Map). In Magocsi, P. R. Historical Atlas of Central Europe (Rev. & ex. ed.). 1:8 890 000. Seattle: University of Washington Press. p. 53. 
Imzadi 1979  00:05, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Strike that, it wasn't working before. Imzadi 1979  00:06, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Imzadi1979: your examples are free-form (untemplated), but as models your geological map examples are generally fine except that we usually:

1) omit "[map]";
2) omit place of publication for well-known agencies like the USGS;
3) identify the agency (publisher) before the series name;
4) put the scale and number of pages/plates at the end.

Following are examples of how I have done this using {citation}. I also use |journal=, which italicises the agency, and (with |volume=) use to make the series name/number bold. (E.g.: U.S. Geological Survey, Open-File Report 2010-1149.) Not an ideal implementation, but the best I have been able to devise.

{Cite journal} generates a very similar result, but {cite map} is not even close, in neither the old nor the new form:

Cite map compare
{{ cite map | date=June 2006 | url= | last1=Dragovich | first2=A. J. | at=1 sheet, scale 1:24,000, 18 p. text | series=Geological Map GM–61 | first1=J. D. | journal=Washington Division of Geology and Earth Resources | title=Geologic map of the McMurray 7.5-minute Quadrangle, Skagit and Snohomish Counties, Washington, with a Discussion of the Evidence for Holocene Activity on the Darrington–Devils Mountain Fault Zone | ref=CITEREFGM-61 | last2=DeOme }}
Old Geologic map of the McMurray 7.5-minute Quadrangle, Skagit and Snohomish Counties, Washington, with a Discussion of the Evidence for Holocene Activity on the Darrington–Devils Mountain Fault Zone (Map). Geological Map GM–61. June 2006. 1 sheet, scale 1:24,000, 18 p. text. 
Live Dragovich, J. D.; DeOme, A. J. (June 2006). "Geologic map of the McMurray 7.5-minute Quadrangle, Skagit and Snohomish Counties, Washington, with a Discussion of the Evidence for Holocene Activity on the Darrington–Devils Mountain Fault Zone" (Map). Washington Division of Geology and Earth Resources. Geological Map GM–61. 1 sheet, scale 1:24,000, 18 p. text. 

. I am fine with using {citation/journal} (aside from the lack of bolding), but identifying maps as journals seems a little dishonest. Not a burning issue, but one I think we should think about. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 18:50, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Here's the citation above using {{cite map}} with some parameters used as documented (I think) and the sandbox version shown:
Cite map compare
{{ cite map | type=1 sheet, 18 p. text | url= | date=June 2006 | scale=1:24,000 | last1=Dragovich | series=Geological Map GM–61 | publisher=Washington Division of Geology and Earth Resources | title=Geologic map of the McMurray 7.5-minute Quadrangle, Skagit and Snohomish Counties, Washington, with a Discussion of the Evidence for Holocene Activity on the Darrington–Devils Mountain Fault Zone | first1=J. D. | last2=DeOme | first2=A. J. }}
Live Dragovich, J. D.; DeOme, A. J. (June 2006). Geologic map of the McMurray 7.5-minute Quadrangle, Skagit and Snohomish Counties, Washington, with a Discussion of the Evidence for Holocene Activity on the Darrington–Devils Mountain Fault Zone (1 sheet, 18 p. text). 1:24,000. Geological Map GM–61. Washington Division of Geology and Earth Resources. 
Sandbox Dragovich, J. D.; DeOme, A. J. (June 2006). Geologic map of the McMurray 7.5-minute Quadrangle, Skagit and Snohomish Counties, Washington, with a Discussion of the Evidence for Holocene Activity on the Darrington–Devils Mountain Fault Zone (1 sheet, 18 p. text). 1:24,000. Geological Map GM–61. Washington Division of Geology and Earth Resources. 
Feedback on the sandbox version? – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:19, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Definite improvement re the current version. (And even better if "series" is bolded.) However, the series name, which is often more significant than the full title, should precede the descriptive details (scale, sheets, etc.), which should come at the end. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:25, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Some comments
  1. I would oppose the ommission of "(Map).". In the other templates of the CS1 series, like {{cite press release}} or {{cite thesis}}, we indicate the type of source it is. Using |type=Geological map, |type=Topological map or even |type=Aerial survey would be ways to change the default, but something should be noted.
  2. The place of publication isn't required, so you'd be free to omit if you wish. (We don't seem to require it on books, and we wouldn't require it on maps.)
  3. I can see switching that, but the current order was based on the APA style (which is also the basis for most of CS1 and CS2) and it renders consistently with {{cite book}}.
  4. I can also see switching that as well, to put the scale between publisher and in-source location information, but once again we started with the APA ordering as a basis.
In your example though, the publisher (USGS) should not be in italics. Nowhere else do we use italics in citations this way in the other templates, which is reserved for published works like the name of a book or the name of a journal.
Cite map compare
{{ cite map | url= | scale=1:24,000 | date=June 2006 | series=Geological Map GM–61 | last1=Dragovich | at=1 sheet, 18 p. text | publisher=Washington Division of Geology and Earth Resources | title=Geologic map of the McMurray 7.5-minute Quadrangle, Skagit and Snohomish Counties, Washington, with a Discussion of the Evidence for Holocene Activity on the Darrington–Devils Mountain Fault Zone | first1=J. D. | last2=DeOme | first2=A. J. }}
Live Dragovich, J. D.; DeOme, A. J. (June 2006). Geologic map of the McMurray 7.5-minute Quadrangle, Skagit and Snohomish Counties, Washington, with a Discussion of the Evidence for Holocene Activity on the Darrington–Devils Mountain Fault Zone (Map). 1:24,000. Geological Map GM–61. Washington Division of Geology and Earth Resources. 1 sheet, 18 p. text. 
Sandbox Dragovich, J. D.; DeOme, A. J. (June 2006). Geologic map of the McMurray 7.5-minute Quadrangle, Skagit and Snohomish Counties, Washington, with a Discussion of the Evidence for Holocene Activity on the Darrington–Devils Mountain Fault Zone (Map). 1:24,000. Geological Map GM–61. Washington Division of Geology and Earth Resources. 1 sheet, 18 p. text. 

Imzadi 1979  23:13, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

@J. Johnson: I'm glad you think it's an improvement. I don't think bolding the series matches any of the style guides cited above, but moving the series may be possible. Do a text search above for "Series should be appear between Scale and Cartography" to see a discussion about the placement of that parameter. Pinging Imzadi1979 for comment. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:15, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Generally, I'm opposed to the usage of boldface text in citations. I've been in favor of totally removing it in the past for volume numbers. I'm not aware of any other style guides that bold volume numbers, and when it comes to books, I personally prefer |volume=vol. 1 to both add context to the number and force the template to render the output in roman (plain) text. For series names, I would oppose the boldface treatment, and I think it would go against our MOS.
As for the location of |series= vs. |scale=, the general order follows that of {{cite book}} combined with the map-specific items from the APA style.
  1. First is the author(s) followed by the year in parentheses.
  2. Then we render the name of the map in quotation marks, if it's a map within an atlas or journal (the analog of a chapter in a book or an article in a journal).
  3. Then it's the name of the atlas/journal in italics. If it's a single sheet map, that name is rendered in italics as the map itself is the published work and not a component of a larger work.
  4. The "(Map)" indicator is now flexible and follows the name of the map, whether that is in quotes or italics.
  5. APA runs the scale next followed by the series. Cite book runs the names of other contributions after the series, so that's where we put the |cartography= output followed by |others=. (The former of those two is something I feel is a bit of a compromise based on how other road editors have and will use the template.)
  6. Then we use the place of publication and the publisher, just as APA style and cite book would. Of course, many editors drop the place of publication when citing books.
  7. Then we note the in-source location. For books, this has been the page number, and for maps, we also include the ability to source an inset of a map as well as the map sections.
  8. Then we use the various possible ID numbers, like ISBN, ISSN, JSTOR, OCLC, etc.
  9. Finally is any online-specific information, like access dates, archive dates, republisher (aka |via=) all like the other CS1 templates.
So in short, I'm flexible, but changing some of the ordering would also mean we should discuss the situation with other templates to keep consistency within the citation style. Imzadi 1979  23:40, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
So many points to consider!
Regarding omission of "[map]": the parallel with sources like theses and abstracts is incorrect. In scholarly work sources like these are identified because they have less weight than usual, but this is not applicable to geological maps. The correct parallel is with books and journals, where we do omit the source type. (E.g.: we don't indicate [book] or [journal].) Perhaps in some cases such an indication might be useful, but should be neither required nor the default.
I do not find APA style fully authoritative here. The USGS and most other agencies are quite similar in putting the name of the agency - the "publisher" - before the series name. Consider how ambiguous the very common "Open-File Report" is without specifying "USGS" or "Washington DGER". Indeed, it seems the name of the agency is deemed part of the series name, with subsequent specification as publisher omitted as being redundant. And in some cases (e.g., the Journal of Geophysical Research) the combined agency+series is all italicised, just as if was the title of a journal (and in line with your "3. ... atlas/journal in italics"), which gets back to the point I made above: geological maps are scholarly works on par with journal articles.
Out of time. More comments tomorrow. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Location of map scale and details[edit]

I raise a question of where the map scale (and certain other details, like the number sheets, numer of pages of text, etc.) should go. Imzadi1979 previously cited this page from NCSU Libraries that the scale "would come immediately before the series." I don't find that satisfactory. (In part because I find the NCSU examples generally clumsy and inelegant). In most (all?) geological usage the scale and other details are subordinated to, and therefore follow, the series; I recommend that here.

As to where scale should be placed relative to volume/issue/language: I do not recall ever seeing such a mixture. Do atlases and road maps have established usages in this regard? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:29, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

CS1 is based on the APA style with modifications from it. It also uses The Chicago Manual of Style for inspiration, along with Wikipedian-generated concepts. The current template is mostly a Wikipedian-generated format that doesn't match the others in the CS1 series (it conflates the author and the publisher, and can't cite both), so in transitioning it to the Lua module, now is a good time to whip into shape to match the others.
The current APA stye guide only has a single example (p. 210):
That's why I pulled up the NCSU Libraries page because it has actual examples for citing maps in formats designed to be used with APA style, as the starting point for updating {{cite map}} to CS1 style as CS1 is so heavily based on APA.
CMOS 16 is largely silent. It does talk about noting map sources in a credit line (p. 128). The closest example is on p. 726 where it shows how to cite an illustration or table on a page as a part of a footnote, saying:
  • The abbreviation fig. may be used for figure, but table, map, plate, and other illustration forms are spelld out. The page number, if given, recedes the illustration number, with a comma between then.

    50. Richard Sobel, ed., Public Opinion in US Foreign Policy: The Controversy over Contra Aid (Boston: Rowman and Littlefield, 1993) 87, table 5.3.

To me, this isn't helpful because it only deals with citing a map as an illustration in a published work, and not when the map is the work. So, at this point, I think we're on our own, other than consulting the recommendations of various university libraries or cartography programs for guidance.
@J. Johnson: what exact order would you like us to use? I'm assuming that after the title(s), you would immediately go to the location*/publisher followed by series, scale, in-source locations, identifiers (ISBN, etc), and then the online archival/retrieval information where optionally used. That could work for me too, if that's what others want. (* |location= is omitted by a lot of Wikipedians in citing books, so as I've mentioned, individual editors could omit it as they wanted.) We'll need a place to insert |cartography=, to deal with the situations I illustrated in the next subsection. We'll also need a place in that order for |others= as well as |agency= in the rare cases of maps that have been translated (|others=Translation by Jean-Luc Picard) or distributed through a news wire agency (|agency=Associated Press).
Imzadi 1979  03:08, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
For all that I have seen (and I have spent most of today researching this), there are two locations for map scale: 1) immediately following the map name ("title"), or 2) following the series name/number. These correspond to two broad conceptions, which we can loosely identify as "APA style", or "geoscience style" (apparently universal with agencies and publishers in the US). Given that citations (references) are supposed to aid in identifying and locating sources, I find the APA style (esp. the NCSU examples) cumbersome in presenting the most relevant information. (E.g., "Reston, VA: United States Department of the Interior" are attributes of the USGS, and contribute nothing to identifying a map.) I will note that many experts consider a map's scale to be of primary importance, which would justify emphasis. However, in practice this is more of descriptive datum, and less important than the series, wherefore geoscience style subordinates scale to follow the series.
In all geoscience uses I have found the scale is always at the end of the citation, but this needs to be qualified in two ways. 1) As we are striving for broader usage, there are data that reasonably follow, such as ISBNs, urls, access date, etc., and perhaps volume and page numbers, which are generally absent in scholarly usage. 2) Geological maps generally include certain details such as the number of sheets (plates), the number pages of text, supplemental files, etc. These are usually associated with the scale, but I haven't seen any particular format.
Note that a "map" can consist of more than one sheet, at different scales. So it would be quite reasonable to see (though I haven't seen it) something like "2 maps (scale 1:62,500, 1:24,000), 32 p. text". Also, APA says that if a scale is not specified the citation should explicitly state "scale not given". However, there are "maps" that have multiple images (on a single sheet) at different scales, where this is nonsensical. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:52, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
So, J. Johnson, what are you proposing? As a follow up, is anything you're proposing something that needs to be immediately addressed in the Lua transition, or would that be something to be addressed in a supplemental update to the template? Imzadi 1979  04:50, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
A quick second thought, but could it be that what you need to cite is just different enough from citing individual sheet maps, maps in atlases, online maps like those from Google Maps, et al., that there should be a forked template that is similar, but has a different use for these geological maps you need to cite, a {{cite geo map}}? Imzadi 1979  04:53, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
As for different scales, the insets on a sheet road map are almost always drawn at a different scale than the main map. In the few cases where I've had a need to cite the main map plus one of the insets, I've used separate footnotes, or manually indicated the locations on the sheet map being cited through the use of |at=. To follow the APA guidance, if necessary, I'd note "Scales not given" in the plural, although some of Michigan's maps included the scale on the insets but not the main map, oddly enough. For something like the iconic London Tube Map, I had occasion to use |scale=Not to scale. Imzadi 1979  04:59, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
No, nothing (that I am aware of) that needs immediate attention, although I would caution against having |scale= either required, or defaulting to "not given". (My initial question was "if there might be interest ...." We do seem to be well beyond a simple "yes".)
I don't believe a forked template (e.g., {cite geo map}) would be useful. In my context most (all?) geological maps are scholarly works, and are cited without special distinction as maps. My interest here is to see if {cite map}, and perhaps certain parameters in {citation}, can be made general enough to be suitable for geological maps. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:49, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
At the moment, |scale= is not required and does not have a default value, which isn't something that is not being changed in the transition. Imzadi 1979  23:58, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
Keeping |scale= as not required is good. How this is ordered with other similar details does not seem very significant. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:08, 22 March 2015 (UTC)


The use of the |cartography= parameter has been touched on in several places above. Scott5114 suggested (24 Feb) that this field is intended to identify the original source of the "cartography" that has been republished by others, the people doing the actual cartography being seldom credited. However, in geological and topographic maps it is common to identify who did the cartography. But (at least in geological maps) this is only part of the "authorship", and I am not aware that cartogrpahers, distinguished from authors, are ever mentioned in a citation. So possibly the use of this parameter needs clarification. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:31, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

I've cited a few county plat atlases in the past. The library catalogs credit the county and the local 4H Club as the authors of the atlas, while the company that actually published them did the cartography. Once the template is transition to the Lua module and updated, I can properly credit the authors of the atlas (the county, the 4H club) separate from the publishing company for their contributions.
I typically cite the official state road maps from Michigan. These were all printed by what is now the Michigan Department of Transportation, and for the most part, they drew them in house. However, for a few years in the 1930s, the base road map was drawn by HM Gousha or Rand McNally, while the state did all of the other work and may have modified the contracted company's work. The library catalogs credit the state highway department as the author; the cartography source is either omitted in the catalog or moved to a secondary contribution note.
In working with gas station road maps, the company who distributed them (say Esso) is typically thought of as the author because of the quantity of content they added to the map while they may have contracted with Rand McNally to provide the base road map. These are also indexed in library catalogs under the oil companies' names, not Rand McNally's.
I agree that in many contexts, the cartography is the author and doesn't need separate billing. Until the updated template goes live in the next module update, we have no way to separate author, publisher, and cartographer (where distinct), as the current inadequate template inappropriately conflates author and publisher. Imzadi 1979  02:30, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
So looking forward: should we have specific criteria to avoid ambiguous uses of this parameter? Perhaps even a caution that it is normally not used unless there is something special about the cartography/cartographers? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:45, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
I think it might be fine to simply note that this parameter will usually be blank unless the information is available. The third-party cartography information is important because it can be helpful to know that, e.g, the Texaco Rand McNally map cited will probably have substantially similar content to a Rand McNally map with Skelly branding. In addition, some older Oklahoma state maps did list a credit for the woman who drew the maps (along with the name of her supervisor, for some reason), and when citing those maps I have included this information. Newer maps have nothing of the sort, probably because the map is the responsibility of a team of cartographers) so it is omitted. —Scott5114 [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 04:24, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
As I said above, geological maps often credit who did the cartography (part of the general scholarly practice of crediting everyone who has contributed or assisted), but I am not aware of any cases where such information was of any use in a citation. Perhaps it would be sufficient to say that this parameter is for special cases, and not normally used. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:53, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

"Scholarly" vs. "Everything Else" map citation order[edit]

@J. Johnson: I think we're both in general agreement about most of the order of presentation. It seems to be a question of where to put the |series= in relation to the publisher, and I'm ok with a general "Location: Publisher. Series" order. As you note, the publisher forms a type of natural disambiguation with the series name in that respect. ("Which '7.5-Minute Series'? Oh, the 'US Geological Survey 7.5-Minute Series'!") As for |scale=, I'm neutral about running it after the map name or after the publisher/series. So if we had a general order of:

  • Author(s). (Date). Titles (in italics or in quotes and italics as appropriate). Location: Publisher. Series. Scale. Others. In-source location(s). ID numbers. Online-related data.

I think we'd both be generally happy. Maybe I've mis-read slightly, so one of those pieces may need a slight shuffling. (Others would be where to handle wire agency or |cartography= in the general scheme.)

The various CS1 templates though have no function to note the total number of pages in a book, so something like "2 maps (scale 1:62,500, 1:24,000), 32 p. text" doesn't seem to fit with the way the rest of the template family does things. I might be tempted to tell editors who felt strongly enough to insert that into |scale= since that is a free-form parameter that doesn't impact any metadata.

Turning to the "in-source" location, road maps have grid sections, which are supported through |section= or the new |sections=, which will be prefaced by § and §§, respectively. I'm wondering if we should add |sheet= and |sheets=. The MDOT Right-of-Way Map File Application (the name of their website) divides the state highway system into 83 "maps" (by county name) with individual numbered sheets as well as the county title sheets. I've used |at=Sheet 180 in the past, but a |sheet=180 along with |sheets=1–2 would be useful. I gather that would be useful for multi-sheet geological maps as well? Do geological maps ever have sheets numbered as multiple pages, or pages numbered as separate sheets? Imzadi 1979  03:11, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, sheets get numbered (also in dissertations), and a |sheets= parameter could be good. That could also take the number of pages of text. As to whether this should come immediately before or immediately after scale: I see no consistent pattern. (And I have no consistent opinion on this!) Any guidance from roadmap usage? Alternately, all this could go into (say) "desc=". Or simply appended to the template. But definitely after publisher/series.
Regarding "series": I strongly favor preceeding it with the "publisher". Preceding that with the publisher's location is a problem, because it could be confused as the location of the map. I suggest omitting location, just as we usually omit the location of a journal publisher. I also favor italicising the publisher, to distinguish it from the name of the series. (I note that some publishers do this with a colon, or even a comma.) With {{citation}} I have found that using journal+volume or journal+series works well, though strictly speaking that is a misuse of |journal=. However, |publisher= gets put after volume/series, so that isn't satisfactory. How do we manage this?
BTW, I found an interesting discussion on Map Authorship and Citation Guidelines. Part of it is about distinguishing between maps, and the data used to generate the maps. I don't think we need to worry about that. Yet. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:15, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
Ok, Trappist the monk, can we add |sheet= and Template:Para sheets then? As for order, I'm thinking sheet/sheets should go with the page/pages ahead of any inset or section/sections. That would keep things in a general largest-unit-to-smallest-unit order, I think.
Regarding location, publisher and series, as I've noted, J. Johnson, you'll be free to omit the location, while others will include it, so that comment is less helpful. I agree with you that publisher can go ahead of series to have the natural disambiguation aspect mentioned above, but I'd oppose italicizing the publisher as no other CS1 templates does such. Yes, we should be designing a template to accommodate academic practices, but we're also fitting this template into the rest of a family of templates with an established style.
You left one of my questions unanswered though. Is a single sheet ever numbered as separate pages? The answer would let us know how to order the display of the parameters if both are present. Otherwise, I doubt we'd run into citations that used both. Imzadi 1979  02:16, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
I think we are pretty much in accord. We agree that the publisher should precede the series name, the challenge being in how to arrrange that. I would like the italicisaton, but I grant that's not likely. For scholarly usage (I dilike "academic") we don't need a separate template if this one will work, and I think it will. Having "location" right after the map title would be an issue, but as long as it can be omitted that is not an issue. The description of the map itself - such as the number of sheets (plates) and pages of text, and things like "five-foot poster of nine maps" (there is an instance) - should precede the page range or such that indicate where the map (or map subset) is to be found. Which I believe is what we are converging on.
I am not certain if I understand your last question. Geological maps generally consist of a main map sheet (like any other map), possibly additional supplementary sheets, and explantory text, which may be on the sheet, or in a separate pamphlet or book. If there is more than one sheet they will (or should) be numbered, just like the pages in a pamphlet or book are numbered. But sheets are not pages, they are separate. Sometimes sheets are bound into a book (often as foldouts), but they are not counted as pages. What might be confusing is where a small map is printed on a page. These are usually treated as a kind of figure or illustration, andare often numbered (just like tables), so might be cited as "map 2 on page 99". But in such a case the "map" is just a figure within a larger source (such as a book). If I understand your question, the answer is "no": as discription sheets and pages (of text) are counted separately, and as locaters they do not overlap. Okay? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:46, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
OK, I think that we've probably converged on opinion then, and it's a matter of getting the Lua module changed at the next regular update to rearrange the display order and add |sheet= and |sheets=. I'll note that we have |at= for free-form locations, which is quite handy for more custom situations. The initial Lua conversion was implemented today, so if we make a list of specific tweaks, they can be implemented in the next regular update in a few weeks. Imzadi 1979  20:22, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Yep, make a list of specific tweaks so that I don't have to try to understand all of what you-all are talking about. For existing in-source locators, the order of precedence is: |page=, |pages=, |at= but its |sections= over |section=. I think that's backwards. I should also add the redundant parameter error detection.
And that makes me wonder about the in-source locator parameters and COinS. Currently only |page=, |pages=, or |at= is included in the COinS. Should |sheet=, |sheets=, |section=, and |sections= be combined with |page=, |pages=, |at= in some appropriate order for assignment to COinS rft.pages?
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:59, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
Some maps have both text (pages) and sheets, so as description it is useful to have both the number of pages and the number of sheets. But I don't believe there is any particularly appropriate order for these (or scale). As for specifying a location within a larger work: I believe COinS is primarily about locating the work itself ("in the local library"), and specifying a particular page or sheet (in-source locator) does not seem useful. And as pages and sheets are non-overlapping specifying both as a location suggests some kind of error. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:15, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
Since no list of specific tweaks has appeared, has this train of thought been abandoned?
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:12, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm conflicted in my thought processes on this. On the one hand, the current order in the template was designed to mimic the style of the other templates in the CS1 family. It is also based on the APA style, just as most of the other CS1 templates are based on APA. APA is a scholarly style, so while I see some advantages to the style as proposed by J. Johnson, I'm content to leave the template as it is in terms of output order.
As for |sheet= and |sheets=, I still think that would be good to add. As I suspected, a map citation should not refer to both a page and sheet number, so in terms of an in-source reference, they'd be first followed by any inset and ending with the grid section(s). That would tell me that we could combine them into the COinS metadata in that order. Imzadi 1979  15:24, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
A map's full citation should handle having both number of sheets and number of pages as description; combining them for COinS seems fine. I believe we are agreed on the authors-date-title-[location]-publisher-series-scale... ordering. This is nearly what we have currently, except for
1) moving publisher in front of series, and
2) moving scale further down. And
3) adding a |sheet= parameter.
I don't believe there is anything critical hanging on any of this, so there's no need to get everything "right" on the first go. Take a whack at it, and we will see how it looks. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:35, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
I still disagree on the full number of sheets or the full number of pages. We don't cite how many pages are in a book, just the page or pages where the cited information will be found.
As I noted immediately above, I'm still conflicted on changing the output order. As I've been working on updating the usage of templates in articles to use the updated {cite map}, my viewpoint is back on the side of leaving the order as it is now, based on CS1/APA usage, because that flows with {{cite book}}'s output. Your #1 change would move {cite map} away from {cite book} again, not toward it. The series for a book appears before the publisher, not after it, so it would follow that the series for a map should appear before the publisher to stay consistent. As for #2, APA style keeps the scale ahead of the series nearer to the title of the map; it could be moved, but I'm not sure why. APA is a scholarly citation style, so I don't see why we need to change things. Imzadi 1979  02:22, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Map Title (Map). Sheet 4.  – sheet map
"Map Title" (Map). Journal 45 (3): Sheet 4.  – map in a journal
"Map Title" (Map). Title. Sheets 4, 5. Detail inset. §§ C2–D3.  – map in a book or atlas
Trappist the monk (talk) 15:47, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
APA has evolved within the social sciences (and humanities?), with very little (if any) feedback from the geosciences on the use of map citations. Broad-based experience has led nearly all geoscience authorities (as I have said above) to converge on a fairly standardized style. Not being able to accomodate that will be a strong dis-incentive for using {cite map}, and limit {cite map}'s applicability.
A few details: The full citation of books often include the number of pages (which is often useful for identifying variant editions or reprintings); this is more common for pamphlets ("books" of less than 50 pages), which geological maps more closely resemble. Scale is very important in paper maps, where the relationship is fixed, but less so in digital formats (such as pdfs) which can be reproduced at any scale. This may be why scale is getting relegated to the descriptive details.
BTW: Trappist, your examples are hybridized short/full citations. E.g. (to use one of my examples), a short cite (in-line, with an in-source spec) could be "Dragovich and DeOme, 2007, p. 12" (author-date), or "GM-61, p. 12" (short title), while the full citation would be like any of the examples above. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:08, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
The purpose of the three citations above is to illustrate new parameters |sheet= and |sheets=. No other purpose is intended.
Trappist the monk (talk) 23:01, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
No CS1 template includes total number of pages, and {{cite map}} is a CS1 template. The CS1 family is based on APA and the Chicago Manual of Style. Editors are free to use any style of citation they which, but they are supposed to do so consistently. Until now, this template was not very consistent with the rest of the CS1 family, and now it is.
APA says to omit a scale where it is not fixed, like Google Maps and such, but if a scanned map is reproduced in PDF format, the scale is still fixed. It's no different to enlarge a PDF on screen than to take a magnifying glass to a printed paper map. The original scale of the map will still impact the level of detail, even when enlarged because unlike something like Google Maps, the enlargement does not add details. You may omit including the scale if you wish as the template does not require a value in |scale=, nor can it because the template needs to be able to cite variable-scaled maps like Google Maps, Yahoo! Maps, OpenStreetMap, etc.
@Trappist the monk: I just thought of something. |title= has a corresponding |trans-title=; should we have a |trans-map= to go with |map=? Imzadi 1979  23:20, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
"Map Title" [Translated Map Title] (Map). Title. Sheets 4, 5. Detail inset. §§ C2–D3.  – map in a book or atlas
Trappist the monk (talk) 00:06, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
A map scale relates the size of a physical map to the size of the physical topography covered by the map. If a map sheet at 1:24,000 scale is 20 inches across, it means that the map covers an area of 480,000 inches (40,000 feet). And an inch on a physical map is still an inch, no matter how much you magnify it. (Presumably your ruler is below the magnifying glass, not above it.) All digitally derived maps are "variable-scale" until they are expressed physically, and then the resulting scale is specific to that expression.
If the scale is to follow APA style (following the title) then we should have a |desc= parameter where the scale can be included with the descriptive details. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:57, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Maintenance category messaging[edit]

I have added code to Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox that adds a message to citations that, for whatever reason, put the page in a CS1 maintenance category:

{{cite journal/new |title=none |journal=Journal |date=2014 |year=2014}}
Journal. 2014. 

The message is hidden by default but if you have turned on all error messages (see Help:CS1 errors#Controlling error message display), these messages are visible. Currently, and for simplicity, the message is the maintenance category name without namespace.

I'm not sure about the color which is #33aa33. If there is a better color, what is it? See also web safe colors. Whatever color is ultimately chosen should not be similar to the standard error message color and should have relatively good contrast against the standard background color.

Trappist the monk (talk) 16:08, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I support the general idea of this messaging, because as the code currently stands, it can be tricky to figure out which citation is causing the article to be included in the maintenance category.
I think the message should be used for clear-cut cases that have a straightforward resolution, like |language=English, but not for cases that do not have a clear way to remove the maintenance message, like |language=English and German. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:49, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Just because a page is in a maintenance category, it doesn't necessarily follow that something needs to be fixed Category:CS1 maint: Untitled periodical might be such a category – though I wonder if support for that was a proper decision. Part of the purpose of maintenance categories is to be an indicator for what else needs to be done in the module; multiple language support is one of those things, another is what to do about templates that use both |date= and |year= where the year values don't match.
Trappist the monk (talk) 23:33, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Re "Just because a page is in a maintenance category, it doesn't necessarily follow that something needs to be fixed". But an explicit message strongly implies that something needs to be fixed, so we will at least need guidance for editors who have the hidden messages enabled. Perhaps a "help" link after the message, leading to a new Help:CS1 maintenance messages page modeled on the Help:CS1 errors page. I am willing to set up such a page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:08, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
I've added links to the category pages where there is text to describe what purpose the category serves.
Title. ASIN 1935071874. 
Title. 2005. 
Author. Title. 
Author et al. Title. 
Title (in English).  – no message here because this condition only renders messages in article space
Title (in Gernan). 
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:55, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
That works for me. I have added a note to the language category page about multiple languages. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:55, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Documentation / Lua[edit]

We currently have three templates not using the Lua module: {{cite episode}}, {{cite serial}} and {{cite map}} (which is in progress). Currently we have a documentation switch |lua=yes in {{Citation Style documentation}} to display documentation sections for the Lua templates. I think it is time to remove that and show the Lua documentation on all with notes on the non-Lua templates. --  Gadget850 talk 18:16, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Trappist the monk (talk) 19:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Support, especially if we proceed with migration of {{cite episode}} and {{cite serial}}. I will help in any way that I can. It will be exciting to be done with this multi-year migration project. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:29, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

What is needed to proceed with this change? Do we change to |lua=no for the non-Lua templates? Do we just put a big note at the top of the documentation for each of them saying that they don't work quite as described? Do we gather the non-Lua content from the subtemplates into a single subtemplate to display on the non-Lua pages?

As an aside, I noticed that {{Cite arXiv}} is listed in some of the official lists of CS1 templates (e.g. at {{Citation Style documentation/cs1}}) but not in others (e.g. Help:CS1 errors and Help:Citation Style 1#General use). It does not yet use Lua. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:30, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

c. 75[edit]

The date format "c. 75" is in accordance with the documentation. Why then does it put out an error on Jewish_Messiah_claimants#cite_note-JW_Book_VII-14? Debresser (talk) 07:12, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

It looks like any year less than 100 triggers the error. Aside: If the linked article is correct, you can't have read this version to use it as a reference. --  Gadget850 talk 11:55, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Can (should) this be fixed? Debresser (talk) 18:32, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

want to use Cite_AV_media in de[edit]

Can somebody help me to make it possible to use [1] also in de:wp? Thank you, Conny (talk) 11:40, 2 March 2015 (UTC).

I took a look at the cite templates on the German Wikipedia— they do not use a core meta-template. You can use the December 2008 version of {{cite AV media}} before it was updated.[2] --  Gadget850 talk 12:03, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Adding translator to citation?[edit]

I've encountered a case where I need to add the translator's name to a citation. Since this property is critical when it comes to literature & history -- there are a lot of different translations of various works -- being able to indicate this property is important. So am I not reading the documentation correctly, or is this something that needs to be added to the template? -- llywrch (talk) 21:55, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

  • others: To record other contributors to the work, such as Illustrated by John Smith or Translated by John Smith. --  Gadget850 talk 22:25, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
The documentation snippet above appears at Template:Cite book#Authors and in the documentation for other CS1 templates as well. To use it, type |others=Translated by John Smith within the citation template. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:34, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

date and year in the same citation[edit]

We have a maintenance category, Category:CS1 maint: Date and year that collects page with citations that use both |date= and |year=. When the year-value in |date= matches the value in |year=, both are not required. The exception is when |date=YYYY-MM-DD and |year=YYYYa (disambiguating |year= for {{sfn}} and {{harv}} references to multiple works by an author in the same year).

Currently the category is filled by detecting the presence of |date= and |year= without regard to content. I have tweaked the date validation code to detect differences between the year values in |date= and |year= (formatting is not considered in this test). In the sandbox version, when |year= and |date= have the same year values:

{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=January 2015 |year=2015}}
Title. January 2015. 

but if different:

{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=January 2015 |year=2014}}
Title. January 2015.  Check date values in: |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

With date ranges in |date=, one of the two years must match the value in |year=:

{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=December 2014 – January 2015 |year=2014}}
Title. December 2014 – January 2015. 
{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=December 2014 – January 2015 |year=2015}}
Title. December 2014 – January 2015. 
{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=December 2014 – January 2015 |year=2013}}
Title. December 2014 – January 2015.  Check date values in: |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

The code doesn't yet do a special test for disambiguated |year=YYYYa when |date=YYYY-MM-DD (not an error and shouldn't be in Category:CS1 maint: Date and year) nor does it properly handle the case when |date=YYYY–YY.

Why do this? Category:CS1 maint: Date and year should only contain pages where |date= and |year= have the same year values; the duplication is benign.

Trappist the monk (talk) 13:16, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Now tests for disambiguated |year=YYYYa when |date=YYYY-MM-DD:

{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=2015-01-01 |year=2014}}
Title. 2015-01-01.  Check date values in: |year= / |date= mismatch (help)
{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=2015-01-01 |year=2015}}
Title. 2015-01-01. 
{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=2015-01-01 |year=2015a}}
Title. 2015-01-01. 

Trappist the monk (talk) 16:46, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Please explain difference in behavior; the first case produces no green message but the second case does. The difference is the format of the date.
No message:
{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=2015-01-01 |year=2015a}}
Title. 2015-01-01. 
Green message:
{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=January 1, 2015 |year=2015a}}
Title. January 1, 2015. 
Jc3s5h (talk) 18:23, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Because this:
{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=January 1, 2015 |year=2015a |ref=harv}}
Title. January 1, 2015. 
is equivalent to this:
{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=January 1, 2015a |ref=harv}}
Title. January 1, 2015a. 
The CITEREF anchor for both of them is:
The date checking code will fail a disambiguated date in the form |date=YYYYa-MM-DD so for citations with a year initial numeric date, |year= is required to handle disambiguation.
Trappist the monk (talk) 18:32, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

And for dates in the form |date=YYYY–YY and |date=<month/season> YYYY–YY:

{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=Winter 2015–16 |year=2015}}
Title. Winter 2015–16. 
{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=2015–16 |year=2016}}
Title. 2015–16. 
{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=Winter 2015–16 |year=2014}}
Title. Winter 2015–16.  Check date values in: |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

Trappist the monk (talk) 12:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Multiple languages[edit]

Where a source is in multiple languages, use of |language=Foo and Bar causes an "unrecognized language" error. How do we get around this? Mjroots (talk) 09:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not seeing an error: Title (in Foo and Bar).  . Where do you see this? --  Gadget850 talk 11:46, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Not an error. When the content of |language= isn't in a form recognized as a language by Mediawiki, the page is placed in a maintenance category. At the next update, those who have enabled display of all CS1 error messages will see the CS1 maintenance message:
Title (in Foo and Bar). 
Support for multiple languages is one of those tasks still to be done. The maintenance category gives us some idea of how editors are using the parameter.
Trappist the monk (talk) 12:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
I see the message in your example, but not in current uses. I think the OP is referring to List of shipwrecks in December 1939, reference #30. I see the hidden category but not the CS1 maint: Unrecognized language message. Mjroots does not have any custom CSS, so he should not be seeing any CS1 messages. --  Gadget850 talk 12:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Next update to Module:Citation/CS1. The green message above comes from the sandbox version ({{cite book/new}}).
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:01, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
trappist the monk - Maybe I don't have custom CSS, but I do have hidden cats enabled via my preferences. That's how I knew the error was caused. Mjroots (talk) 19:36, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
You were perhaps answering Editor Gadget850?
Trappist the monk (talk) 19:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

The situation the original poster describes is not an error. Category:CS1 maint: Unrecognized language page has explanatory text. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:34, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Error data - accessdate without URL[edit]

Over the past couple of years, there have been many discussions about the 47,000+ errors in Category:Pages using citations with accessdate and no URL‎. Probably not as exhaustive list - [3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]. Discussion has often gone in circles, but to condense it as much as possible (as I see it, at least), the errors aren't being fixed because it might be possible to use them to find URLs which once were present but have since been deleted, and the error messages are hidden by default until it's been decided how (or if) to get a bot to deal with them.

When I have come across these errors, I have simply deleted them because I thought that trying to use the accessdate to find a formerly present URL was an edge case that wouldn't be successful often enough to be worth the effort, but without actual data that's just another opinion. So, I compiled the data.

I used a pseudo-random method to select articles in the error category and went back through the revision history to find the edit containing the origin of the citation causing the error. Often, an individual editor wrote multiple citations that caused errors for the same reason - in these cases, they were counted as a single error. When errors on the page originated from multiple editors, those errors were counted once for each editor. I corrected 500 errors and tallied the results.

  • Of the 500 citations containing an accessdate without URL error, 445 of them had never contained a URL.
  • Of the 55 citations that do / did contain a URL, 28 of them were malformed in the current article version and had the URL someplace where it shouldn't be (1x in issue=, 2x in publisher=, 2x in title=, 11x in website=, 2x in work=, 1x commented out due to the URL being on a Wikipedia blacklist, 3x the template was missing a vertical bar or some other syntax problem, 6x the URL was in a second citation somewhere else in the article).
  • The 27 remaining citations formerly had a URL with correct syntax in the original edit of the citation. 16 of them were not restored by me, mostly because the URL had been removed by an editor for a valid reason (10x the URL had originally pointed to a DOI / PMID / JSTOR / etc page and had been replaced by parameter usage, 2x the URL pointed to a copyright violation, 2x the URL pointed to a commercial page ( link)). 2 of the unrestored URLs were dead and unrecoverable with the Wayback Machine but I was able to find another source for the info so I put those URLs in the citations instead.
  • That leaves 11 citations for which I did restore URLs. 3 of the restored URLs were still live and could have been found with a simple Google search without looking for a URL in the original edit. 2 of the restored URLs were now dead links which could not be found via the Wayback Machine, nor could I find the exact same info through a currently live URL - I restored those dead URLs anyway and tagged them with a dead link template (might as well, maybe some other editor can do something with them that I couldn't). The remaining 6 URLs were all currently dead and were restored via the Wayback Machine. Of those 6, I was also able to find the exact same source in a currently live page for 3 of them (for example, Associated Press articles that are still live on other newspaper websites).

In other words, I searched through 500 errors and I was able to repair 3 citations that I couldn't have otherwise fixed without knowing the accessdate. Not very profitable. That made me wonder how successful I would have been if I had just ignored the original citation and done a Google search instead based on the title, author or other info present in the citation. I started another batch of 500 articles containing errors.

I didn't finish them, though - the trend was clear enough that I stopped after 250 articles, so you can double the numbers to scale them up. After using Google to search for URLs which could be put into the citations which had accessdate without URL errors, I found 63 correct matches out of 250 with the URL containing the full article content being cited (not merely abstracts, no limited book previews, etc). Another 14 matches were found that I didn't add to the citations, as I thought those hits would have caused copyright problems (newspaper articles that had been cut & pasted into blogs, academic journal articles found on students' personal pages, scanned copies of computer gaming magazines, etc).

So, I'm going to continue deleting the accessdate parameters that are causing the errors. Trying to use them to find the correct URL for a citation is a real waste of time compared to simply doing a Google search, which gave me a success rate more than 40 times higher. Stamptrader (talk) 16:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Code rearranged in Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox[edit]

Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox has grown to be a file in excess of 100k bytes. Of course a lot of that is non-executable documentation. Today I spent some time reorganizing the code. The purpose is to prepare it so that chunks of it may be split-out into separate modules. For example, it seems that all of the special identifier code (arXiv, ISBN, ISSN, PMC, etc) can be placed in its own module; common utility functions that were used repeatedly can go into their own module, and the like).

As part of the reorganization, I have change almost all functions to be declared as local which limits their visibility (scope) to the module in which they reside and effects whether other functions can see them. In order for a function, local function b() for example, to call local function a(), it is necessary for local function a() to precede local function b() in the module. I think that I have got all of this kind of organization noodled out but it is certainly possible that I haven't.

Another thing that I changed was function names. Before today, there were at least three separate naming 'styles', allruntogether(), camelCase(), and underscore_separated(). I have changed all function names to this latter. I think that I've got these all squared away, too, but of course I could be wrong.

So, when we update the module next time, it is distinctly possible that certain citations will Script error or Lua error fail because I didn't catch all of them.

Trappist the monk (talk) 01:31, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

You still don't have a library of test cases of citations that you can use to find regressions and bugs? You just program and hope? —David Eppstein (talk) 01:47, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Italian identifiers[edit]

A bit off-topic, this; but people posting here seem to know about this kind of stuff, so here goes.

If I google for donne "fotografie degli anni sessanta" "berengo gardin", one of the hits is this, a potentially useful bibliographical record with a grotesquely long URL within The page tells me "Ricerca: BID = IT\ICCU\CFIV\016866" and "Codice identificativo IT\ICCU\CFI\0039704". Anyone know how one might use either the "BID" or the codice identificativo to go either to this page or to any other useful page? (Incidentally, neither BID nor it:BID says anything about this.) -- Hoary (talk) 14:26, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Something that CS1 doesn't do very well is cite database records. Here we have a database: Online Public Access Catalog Servizio Bibliotecario Nazionale OPAC SBN. The data record doesn't have a title so how do we cite that? We could use {{cite report}}:
Donne : fotografie degli anni Sessanta. OPAC SBN (Database record) (in Italian). Retrieved 2015-03-10. 
Here I just took the title from the database record but perhaps there is a more appropriate title.
Trappist the monk (talk) 15:36, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, O monk. I regret that I wrote my message when my head wasn't entirely clear. (Not only was I sleepy, I had downed a Chimay, so the Trappists are partly to blame.) Your response answers questions I hadn't thought of asking, and looks useful: thank you; I'll make a mental note of it. ¶ My question was template-irrelevant. (Well, perhaps relevant to a template in the distant future.) Rather, it was about this database info, and I asked it here because this was the only talk page I could think of that I knew was patrolled by people familiar with this kind of thing. Anyway, yes, the url takes us where we want to go, but it's grotesquely long and it includes parts that look to me as if they may not apply to different browsers, and it tells us of a "BID" identifier and an (unnamed) codice identificativo (identifying code) that look to me as if they're designed to be used somewhere (rather as one can use an ISBN to get info from websites such as Worldcat). But which website can either be used at, and how?
The reason why I'm asking this is related to my earlier question (currently still on this page, but a long way above) about (Japanese) CiNii: this website has bibliographic records for a lot of books that have somehow escaped the attention of Worldcat. Can en:WP articles present these records usefully (in a way that's unlikely to bring obsolescence, and preferably is compact)? I hope so; but even if this is possible, I don't suppose there'd be much demand for their use. And until/unless there were much demand, I wouldn't push for more additions to Template:Cite book and its documentation. -- Hoary (talk) 00:29, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

origyear -> origdate?[edit]

Should "origyear" be changed to "origdate"? I think it would make the current usage of cite templates more consistent. Jason Quinn (talk) 19:49, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. It has always seemed odd to me that "origyear" can take values other than years. We could leave "origyear" as an alias, of course, but "orig-date" makes a lot more sense semantically. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:45, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


To avoid duplication of a thread, please see Wikipedia talk:Template messages/Sources of articles/Citation quick reference#coauthors. ―Mandruss  19:10, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Trappist the monk (talk) 19:26, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

"Missing or empty |title=" error message[edit]

Various uses of citation without a |title= now throw the error message "Missing or empty |title=". Per a discussion last January I had thought that use of "|title=none" was going to suppress this message, but that is not happening. Can we get this message suppressed? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:53, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

The referenced discussion referred specifically to {{cite journal}} though the applied 'fix' also applies to {{citation}} when one of the |periodical= parameters (except |encyclopedia=) is set. Which see:
{{cite journal |title=none |periodical=Periodical}}
{{citation |title=none |periodical=Periodical}}
{{citation |title=none |encyclopedia=Encyclopedia}}
"none", Encyclopedia 
Trappist the monk (talk) 22:49, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


{{citation |author= Hegerl, ''et al.'' |chapter= Chapter 9 |title=none }} in {{Harvnb|IPCC AR4 WG1|2007}}.
> Hegerl et al., "Chapter 9", none  in IPCC AR4 WG1 2007.
[My apologies. I condensed the example the example so much that it looks like a short cite, but it is intended to be a full citation. See the uncondensed example below. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:10, 14 March 2015 (UTC)]
Better example below at #Example of "source in work" ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:50, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
where the source is a chapter in the larger work linked to. Strictly speaking the 'work' is a book, but use of {cite book} gives the same result. Use {cite journal} causes |chapter= to be ignored. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:18, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
This would allow replacement of the little used {{source in source}}. --  Gadget850 talk 22:58, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
I have never warmed to {source in source} (too grotesque), and would favor its replacement. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:04, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

{Harvc} as alternative[edit]

Even though you are on the record in opposition, this is the kind of thing for which {{harvc}} was invented. Somewhere in the text you have: {{sfn|Hegerl, et al.|2007}} which for illustration I'll put here.[1]

In the bibliography section write a citation for the book. This template is one I found at Global warming; it has not been modified:

{{Cite book | year = 2007 | author = IPCC AR4 WG1 | title = Climate Change 2007: The Physical Science Basis | series = Contribution of Working Group I to the [[IPCC Fourth Assessment Report|Fourth Assessment Report]] of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change | editor = Solomon, S.; Qin, D.; Manning, M.; Chen, Z.; Marquis, M.; Averyt, K.B.; Tignor, M.; and Miller, H.L. | publisher = Cambridge University Press | url = | isbn = 978-0-521-88009-1 | ref = harv }}

Then write {{harvc}} templates for each of the individual chapters that are part the 'book' but are cited separately:

{{harvc |last=Hegerl, et al. |year=2007 |c=Chapter 9: Understanding and Attributing Climate Change |url= |loc=[ Section 9.5.2: Sea Level]|in=IPCC AR4 WG1}}

So, from your {{sfn|Hegerl, et al.|2007}} there is now a link into §References where there is a link to the appropriate chapter in §Bibliography which links to the book. Here is the link in article text again.[2] The {{harvc}} template can also be enclosed in <ref>...</ref> tags.[3]




Trappist the monk (talk) 23:58, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

My apologies for causing some confusion here. In the interest of brevity I condensed the example above so much it may appear to be a short cite, such as where harv templates are used to connect to a full citation with full bibliographic details. (This confusion is further compounded by the way citations are misused at Global warming#Citations.) The preferred solution here is to have very short links (implemented with some form of {harv}), such as "Hegerl, et al. 2007", used where ever material needs to be attributed, all of which link to a single full citation such as the following:
This should be considered as a full citation, which would appear only once in an article (presumably in the "Bibliography" or such), and refers to the whole source ("Chapter 9"), not to any specific material within. (I have stricken the specification that was mistakenly included.) It does not look like a "full" citation because it does not repeat the bibliographic details of the encompassing work, nor a proper list of authors, and contains only the details that distinguish this chapter from other chapters in the same work. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:41, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
{{harvc}} does that: can appear only once and refers/links to the single whole source, does not look like a full citation (because it isn't one) and contains only the details that distinguish this chapter from others in the same work. And, it doesn't produce corrupted metadata and so there isn't a missing title error message (though it will emit error messages when required stuff is omitted).
Trappist the monk (talk) 00:26, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
The important point is that the "in source" attribution follows only the full citation, not every instance of the short cite. (The latter being what {{harvc}} does, which is one reason why I opposed it, the other being that I don't believe a whole additional template is necessary for this.) And in fact the current set does all this just fine, except for the little detail of an entirely unnecessary and unuseful red error message.
So back to my initial request: can this little red splash be suppressed? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:10, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
The example full citation template is incomplete. It identifies a chapter of 'something', but doesn't identify what that 'something' is. Because that template is a CS2 citation, it produces metadata that are also incomplete. This is the reason that there is, and should remain, an error message. The full template is coupled (by proximity only) to a {{harvnb}} template that links to a full citation that is complete in and of itself – title, editors, publisher, isbn, etc that the pseudo-full citation lacks.
This same is all true of {{harvc}} in that it also lists only a chapter of 'something' without identifying what that 'something' is; it also links to a full citation with all of the aforementioned stuff (without an additional {{harvnb}} template). But, because it isn't a CS1/CS2 template, it does not produce metadata and is simply a bridge between simple {{sfn}} templates and the full citation template. I've tweaked my examples above to include the chapter's name, url, and location data.
Trappist the monk (talk) 23:00, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
The "something" - the larger work which includes this source - is identified. Just not within the template. The citation is indeed complete as displayed (that is, the work is identified/linked). But I gather your concern is providing context for the metadata collected from the template. Well, that is a deep issue. And it seems to me that harvc is, in the end, just a kludge for getting around the CS1 error checking. I think it would be simpler to just suppress the error message. However, I want to take a deeper look at al this, and see if I can better formulate what is needed. For the duration: even if "missing title" is kept as a maintenance category, could we at least have the error message suppressed? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:43, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes. There is no facility for us to split a citation and then, somehow, later, gather up all of the incomplete metadata from the disparate parts and meld them into a single complete unit. It is not possible; templates can't communicate with each other. Maybe someday but not at present. So, {{harvc}} is no more a kludge than writing a CS1/CS2 citation that intentionally leaves out information critical to the proper compilation of the citation's metadata. Better, I think, to have metadata that is complete and correct than to have metadata that is incomplete.
Trappist the monk (talk) 00:26, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
I have had an idea (yikes). In {{harvc}} you have an |in= parameter. Could we have a similar parameter in {{citation}}, which would signal that the citation metadata is incomplete and should not be collected for COinS? And incidentally overlook the lack of a title? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:04, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Could. But:
  1. {{harvc}} is already written, debugged, working, and documented
  2. new documentation would be required
  3. adding |in= to Module:Citation/CS1 adds yet another level of complexity to an already complex code set
So, unless overwhelming support for this compels me, I'd rather not.
Trappist the monk (talk) 15:25, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
Harvc does not provide the functionality needed (such as expansion of the author list), misorders the elements (but fixable?), and adds complexity to the use of citations. I would be satisfied if {{citation}} simply accepted the lack of a title; my idea for an |in= parameter would address your conern about incomplete metadata. It also permits retention of title checking for the general run of cases where lack of a title probably is an error. If coding that is too much trouble, then let's fall back to the previous idea of using |title=none to suppress the error message. I believe any changes to the documentation are minimal, and I can take care of that, so that should not be any objection. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:24, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
{{harvc}} was modeled on the other short-form templates that accept a maximum of four author names. That could be changed, I suppose, though we would probably also need to include a form of |display-authors= so that the template could switch from its default, where it acts just like the other {{harv}} templates, to displaying all or part of the author list. How are the elements misordered? How is using {{harvc}} any more complex than the exemplar that uses both a broken CS2 template and a {{harvnb}} template?
Trappist the monk (talk) 14:26, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm putting together an example which should clarify the situation. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:27, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
I've added a better example below at #Example of "source in work". In brief, one or more short cites (implemented with harv templates) link to the citation for the chapter (contribution), which links to the citation for the work. The middle layer uses {{citation}} because there is no simple form of {{harv}} that will produce the full author list (which could include author-links), and because any use of harv of at the middle layer confuses the use of short cites. All of this works just fine, aside the from the red message. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 01:06, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Trappist the monk: back to my initial request, can the Missing or empty title message be suppressed, either entirely, or in the specific case of |title=none? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:03, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Have I not already answered this? No. The error message is there for a purpose and so should not be suppressed. If we do anything, it should be to {{harvc}} where we expand on its ability to better handle and display all or part of the author list.
Trappist the monk (talk) 11:02, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
You said you would "rather not" implement my idea of an |in= parameter, and I can accept that you think it is not important enough. However, suppressing this red message is a different matter. It is an "error" only because you (and ??) decided that it should be; I think it can be argued that it is not. Indeed, in regards of COinS I would argue that given a full citation for a containing work, citations for the chapters contained within should not generate COinS metadata. However, the usual way of handling such cases - incorporating all the bibliographic details of the containing working within each chapter's citation (see example below) - can lead to voluminous redundant data for the IPCC reports. The method I have developed for handling these cases is reasonable, and works. Except for the splot of red, which is a recent innovation.
Harvc is not suitable. Should we break out a subsection to discuss that? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:46, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
You are mistaken. I do think it is important. That is why {{harvc}} exists. I also think that it is important to let the CS1/2 templates do what they do best and not try to make them do else-wise by creating special cases where the module does something different; there is too much of that already complicating the code in service of the unique characteristics of the various templates. So far I see no reason to abandon my 'rather not' position.
I have suggested that {{harvc}} functionality could be expanded but even with that you stand fast on Harvc is not suitable. This begins to look rather like a stalemate which to me is wearisome.
Trappist the monk (talk) 00:05, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I regret that this is becoming wearisome, but it is rather important for me, so I would deem it a great favor if you might bear with me a little longer. The IPCC citations present some unusual and difficult challenges, and though these are not so notable across the entirety of Wikipedia (but what sources are?), they are very significant within the Global Warming articles. The approach I developed has worked very well, up until the recently introduced "error" messages. I take your view to be that this approach involves "broken" {{citation}} templates, that this approach misuses the templates in making them do something they were not designed for, and would complicate the underlying code.

Regarding the last, I do not see how testing the template data for "missing or empty title" is any less complicated than not testing for that. Even the special case of skipping the test for "title=none" should be only a single line, nothing complicated. But if it is, then I would argue: eliminate the title test entirely.

Which gets to what I suspect is the core issue: is citation of chapters always incomplete, and therefore an error, if it is missing details of the containing work, such as title? I do agree that a "citation" is incomplete without such details. But I say the issue is more finely whether the template (whether {{citation}} or {{cite xxx}}) must contain all the details, and more particularly whether a link to those details is acceptable. I find that this must be made acceptable, as the alternative is that every chapter cited in every IPCC Assessment Report becomes bloated with these extensive details. I believe your argument at this point would be something about the incompleteness of COinS data. I will address that tomorrow. For now I ask if you concur with what I have described so far. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 04:34, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Here are a couple of {{harvc}} templates of the sandbox variety. They will accept as many authors as you want. Right now it's somewhat clunky: |display-authors=99 |display-authors=all is used to display all of the authors in the contributor's list. If the value assigned to |display-authors= is all or the same as or greater than the number of authors in the contributors list, then all last and first names are displayed. If |display-authors= is empty or omitted, then the template displays up to the first four (if present) last names in the same way that other 'harv' templates do. If |display-authors= is assigned a value less than the number of authors in the contributors list, the template displays both last and first names of that number of contributors followed by et al.
Here the {{harvc/sandbox}} template output is compared to your unmodified {{citation}} output. The differences are date display and brackets around year in the link to the enclosing work.
Trappist the monk (talk) 00:58, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. I will study this tonight. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:25, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
I am somewhat amazed that you went to the trouble of making harvc produce a proper display, where addition of (I believe) one or two lines in the CS1 code could have saved us all this trouble. Particularly as harvc extends the harv templates well past what they were designed for. Which sounds like what you complained about on the 26th, that "it is important to let the CS1/2 templates do what they do best and not try to make them do else-wise by creating special cases where the module does something different...". The only special case I am asking for is the one value of "none" for title, and all it does is suppress an error message. Your fix introduces three new parameters (|c=, |url=, and the |in= parameter you rejected for CS1 on the 19th), and radically alters the normal Harv output. Not to mention that new documentation will be required (your objection #2 on the 19th).
But while the harvc display now looks reasonable, there is still a fundamental problem: the harv templates are designed for use in-line as short cites, whereas the CS1 and CS2 templates are designed for full citations. As such the latter are often collected together as lists, where inclusion of a short cite form (harv) as an item is anomalous, and typically an error. Using a full citation form (such as {citation}) for the IPCC chapters is reasonable and conformable with all other full citations, using the same general format. Use of harvc increases complexity, creates anomalies that invite "correction", and increases the difficulty of explaining to other editors why there must be this anomalous usage.
Trappist, I really appreciate that you would put significant time and effort into tweaking harvc. However, it also concerns me that you should expend so much time and effort on something fundamentally unsatisfactory when there is a better solution. I believe your principal concern is the integrity of the COinS data. If that is satisfactorily addressed, could we not have the minimalist modification of "title=none"? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:39, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
|c= (and its aliases |chapter= and |contribution=), |url=, and |inn= have been part of {{harvc}} since its first release. The changes in {{harvc/sandbox}} are: unlimited |lastn=, addition of |firstn=, |author-linkn=, |author-maskn=, and |display-authors=; conversion of |separator= to |mode= for CS1/2 compliance. Yeah, if I make this new version the live version then I'll need to update the documentation.
I chose {{harvc}} as a name because it was developed from the code that handles the {{harv}} and {{sfn}} templates. {{harvc}} is just a name. Pick another name; one that makes you happy; then make a redirect from that name. Or {{harvc}} can be moved to that name.
Trappist the monk (talk) 11:35, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
{{citation-in}}? Face-smile.svg Well, a name change would help, but the problem is that it is only "skin deep": the parameters and their usage are still different. This template by any name is inherently different, which increases complexity. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:20, 1 April 2015 (UTC)


I need a context to understand this. Have I got this right? J. Johnson wants three levels of citation, a short inline citation, an intermediate level that describes a chapter in a larger work (in this case, an online work), and a top level citation that gives full information on the work? I don't think that's traditional in paper citation styles. If I'm right that it is untraditional, it's going to confuse readers, who won't be expecting a three-level citation hierarchy. And it's going to be even more confusing for editors. So if the work has the same authors for all chapters, I'd cite the entire work and have short cites to that. If the work has different authors for different chapters, and especially if the identity of the chapter authors is significant, I'd put every chapter that was used in the bibliography and make the short cites point to the appropriate chapter. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:04, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Pretty nearly "yes" on all counts. (Though what I want is subect to modification. I'm still working this out.) And what you suggest - giving each chapter (these all have different authorship) a full citation that includes the details of the containing work - is inded the standard format. However, in the various global warming articles the chapters from the IPCC reports are cited so often, and the citations of the containing works have so much detail, that the citations become very bloated, in both the wiki-text and the displayed text, with redundant information. This obscures the essential information, and makes careful editing extremely tedious. That having three levels of citation (instead of the more common two levels) is not "treaditional" is not, I think, a problem, as any readers interested in the sources (most of them are not) are used to clicking on a link to get to the next level of information. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:56, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Example of "source in work"[edit]

The goal is to enable having within an article one or more short cites like this Hegerl et al. (2007)[1] (in either the text or a note, and optionally specifying a location within the source[2][3]) that link to a single citation for a chapter (contribution) with the full details of that source, which in turn links to a single citation for the containing work, without repeating at any level the details of the chapter or of the containing work. And without the red message complaining of a missing or empty title.

  1. ^ [Generated with {{harv}} templates like this: {{Harvtxt|Hegerl et al.|2007}}]
  2. ^ Hegerl et al. 2007, Section 9.5.2: Sea Level, p. 999. [Short cite, with specification appended.]
  3. ^ Le Treut et al. 2007, Section 1.3.2: Global Surface Temperature.

In the "References" or "Bibliography" section, using {{citation}} templates:

  • Hegerl, G. C.; Zwiers, F. W.; Braconnot, P.; Gillett, N. P.; Luo, Y.; Marengo Orsini, J. A.; Nicholls, N.; Penner, J. E.; Stott, P. A. (2007), "Chapter 9: Understanding and Attributing Climate Change",   Missing or empty |title= (help) in IPCC AR4 WG1 2007. ["Full" citation of Hegerl et al., except that details included in the citation of the containing work (below) are not repeated here. This citation appears only once in the article.]

Contra-example: The goal is to avoid having to cite each chapter with a bloated "fullest" citation such as the following:

All this currently works just fine, aside from the recent introduction of the "missing or empty title" message. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:43, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I have added a contra-example of the bloated "fullest" citation that ordinary usage requires for every chapter cited. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:34, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Which url to link with podcast cites?[edit]

In the podcast template, should I use the url that links to the mp3 (e.g. [13]) or the mp3 link (e.g. [14]) itself? Thanks! - Location (talk) 01:09, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Update to the live CS1 module weekend of 21–22 March 2015[edit]

On the weekend of 21–22 March I propose to update the live CS1 module files from the sandbox counterparts:

Changes to Module:Citation/CS1 are:

  1. long-term bug fix in reduce_to_initials(); discussion
  2. Vancouver style author/editor name error checking; discussion
  3. add |script-title language codes bg and ka for proper categorization;
  4. migrate cite map from {{citation/core}}; discussion
  5. strip 'et al.' from author/editor lists; discussion
  6. add maintenance category messaging; discussion
  7. fix bug in accessdate nowrap; discussion
  8. refined simultaneous date/year checking; discussion
  9. reorganized and limited function scoping; discussion

Changes to Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration are:

  1. fix invalid parameter value error categorization; discussion
  2. Vancouver style author/editor name error checking; discussion
  3. add |map=, |mapurl=, |map-url= |map-format=; Section annotation; discussion

Changes to Module:Citation/CS1/Whitelist are:

  1. add |map=, |mapurl=, |map-url= |map-format=, |sections=; discussion

Changes to Module:Citation/CS1/Date validation are:

  1. refine simultaneous date/year checking; discussion
  2. reorganize and limit function scoping; discussion

Trappist the monk (talk) 11:58, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

The 155 articles that use |publisher-link= in {{cite map}} (see Category:Pages using cite map with publisher-link) should be cleaned up before the transition. Does someone have an AWB script that can make quick work of the category? If not, I'll go through it manually. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:55, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Such a task needs to compare the content of |publisher= with the content of |publisher-link=. If they are the same, then the fix is to wrap the content of publisher with wikilink markup:
if |publisher=Publisher Name == |publisher-link=Publisher Name then
|publisher=[[Publisher Name]]
|publisher=[[Publisher link|Publisher Name]]
I should be able to hack an AWB task to do this.
Trappist the monk (talk) 16:32, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
It looks like more than half of them are Louisiana or Michigan maps that have similar or identical publisher/publisher-link pairs. If I have time in the next day or two, I will go after those with some explicit text matching in AutoEd. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:58, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Well, that was quick. Nice work, gnomes. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:09, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

months auto translate on cy-wiki[edit]

I've copied these over to Welsh language WP, and used two in the cy:w:Modur trydan (electric motor article). Gan I set it up so that when we copy citations from en and paste into Welsh Wikipedia, it automatically translates to the Welsh names of months? ie the third citation on the Modur trydan page cites '12 February 2013' which should be 12 Chwefror 2013. Diolch, thanks! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 17:12, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if it actually works, but a template like {{Cytuj stronę}} might give you a hint about how to do this. You could also look at User:BattyBot/CS1_errors-dates for bot code that finds invalid dates and cleans them up, including translating foreign-language month names. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:11, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
What other wikis have done is to modify get_month_number() so that it lists month names in both English and their language:
local long_months = {['January']=1, ['February']=2, ['March']=3, ['April']=4, ['May']=5, ['June']=6, ['July']=7, ['August']=8, ['September']=9, ['October']=10, ['November']=11, ['December']=12};
local short_months = {['Jan']=1, ['Feb']=2, ['Mar']=3, ['Apr']=4, ['May']=5, ['Jun']=6, ['Jul']=7, ['Aug']=8, ['Sep']=9, ['Oct']=10, ['Nov']=11, ['Dec']=12};
local welsh_long_months = {['Ionawr']=1, ['Chwefror']=2, ['Mawrth']=3, ['Ebrill']=4, ['Mai']=5, ['Mehefin']=6, ['Gorffennaf']=7, ['Awst']=8, ['Medi']=9, ['Hydref']=10, ['Tachwedd']=11, ['Rhagfyr']=12}; – these month names not checked for correctness
and then they would add these lines before return 0;
if temp then return temp; end -- if month is the Welsh long-form name
Do the same for short month names if desired.
The above is done so that you can use the module and the CS1/2 citations with the local language months. It is on my longer-term todo list to somehow split out anything that can be localized.
As for auto-translation, there is mw.language:formatDate () that may or may not be useful – documentation is pretty sparse. You might experiment with that.
Trappist the monk (talk) 19:20, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks all. Still hitting my head against that wall! Into which template does the above code go? Llywelyn2000 (talk) 09:25, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

It goes in cy:Modiwl:Citation/CS1/Date validation.
Trappist the monk (talk) 11:17, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Linked editor with initial in first name causes doubled period[edit]

A minor rendering bug in the code: If the final editor of a {{cite book}} has a first name ending in a period, then the template is clever enough to omit the extra period separating the editors from the rest of the citation, preventing an ugly doubled period. For example,

{{cite book|contribution=Chapter 27: Automorphism groups, isomorphism, reconstruction|title=Handbook of Combinatorics|pages=1447–1540|editor1-first=R. L.|editor1-last=Graham|editor1-link= Ronald Graham|editor2-first=M.|editor2-last=Grötschel|editor3-first=L.|editor3-last=Lovász|first=László|last=Babai|authorlink=László Babai|publisher=Elsevier|location=Amsterdam|year=1995|contribution-url=}}


Babai, László (1995). "Chapter 27: Automorphism groups, isomorphism, reconstruction". In Graham, R. L.; Grötschel, M.; Lovász, L. Handbook of Combinatorics. Amsterdam: Elsevier. pp. 1447–1540. 

But, if the editor's name is wikilinked, then the doubled-period suppression doesn't work:

{{cite book|contribution=Chapter 27: Automorphism groups, isomorphism, reconstruction|title=Handbook of Combinatorics|pages=1447–1540|editor1-first=R. L.|editor1-last=Graham|editor1-link= Ronald Graham|editor2-first=M.|editor2-last=Grötschel|editor3-first=L.|editor3-last=Lovász|editor3-link=László Lovász|first=László|last=Babai|authorlink=László Babai|publisher=Elsevier|location=Amsterdam|year=1995|contribution-url=}}


Babai, László (1995). "Chapter 27: Automorphism groups, isomorphism, reconstruction". In Graham, R. L.; Grötschel, M.; Lovász, L.. Handbook of Combinatorics. Amsterdam: Elsevier. pp. 1447–1540. 

One could work around this by omitting the period from the editor-first parameter, of course, but this is undesirable for a couple of reasons: it breaks the metadata, and it causes the wikilink to fail to include the final period in the editor's name. So fixing the code to suppress the doubled period in this case would be better. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:14, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I'll work on this after the next update.
Trappist the monk (talk) 19:22, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks; no particular rush on this one as long as it gets done eventually. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:48, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Fixed in the sandbox.
Babai, László (1995). "Chapter 27: Automorphism groups, isomorphism, reconstruction". In Graham, R. L.; Grötschel, M.; Lovász, L. Handbook of Combinatorics. Amsterdam: Elsevier. pp. 1447–1540. 
Trappist the monk (talk) 11:38, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Where should |format= be used?[edit]

Where should it be used and where is it even necessary? Should it be used for TXT files? PHP files? Dustin (talk) 20:01, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

My preference would be to use it only for {{cite web}}, where the linked web resource *is* the citation. For journal articles or arxiv preprints or whatever that happen to include a link, the link is an incidental part of the reference, and could be changed to a different link in a different format that doesn't change the main information of the reference, so I don't see why the format of this incidental link is such important information that it needs to be displayed prominently in the citation. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:14, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't think it is ever necessary, but if the document is a .doc or a .xls file, or something other than HTML or PDF or something else that displays normally in a web browser, it might help a reader to note the format. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:55, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Jonesey95, except that I also note PDFs. Not all browsers can display PDFs, and because PDFs tend to be larger files than HTML pages, some users would appreciate the warning that clicking the link means downloading a PDF. Imzadi 1979  22:11, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
|format= only applies to the content of |url=. Similarly, |chapter-format= only applies to the content of |chapter-url=. The parameters should be used whenever the file format of the file referred to in the url parameters is not an html document. Wikimedia adds the pdf icon to external links that have urls ending in .pdf but, these icons do not have alt= descriptors to tell screen readers what the image is so for pdf documents, it is important to include |format=pdf in the citation.
URLs that end in .php usually render HTML files so using |format= for them is unnecessary. For .txt files, it probably doesn't matter but might be a good thing to do so that readers have some idea of what they might expect if they click the citation's link.
Trappist the monk (talk) 22:07, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with your claim that format= should always be used for pdf links in citations that are not cite web. It is irrelevant cruft that clutters up the citation and makes the actual useful information harder to find. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:55, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
Here's a citation from Dots and Boxes to which I have added |chapter-format=pdf. Explain to us please, how that simple addition has made the actual useful information harder to find?
{{Citation | last = West | first = Julian | author-link = Julian West (author) | contribution = Championship-Level Play of Dots-and-Boxes | editor-last = Nowakowski | editor-first = Richard | title = Games of No Chance | pages = 79–84 | publisher = MSRI Publications | place = Berkeley | year = 1996 | contribution-url = |chapter-format=pdf}}
West, Julian (1996), "Championship-Level Play of Dots-and-Boxes" (pdf), in Nowakowski, Richard, Games of No Chance, Berkeley: MSRI Publications, pp. 79–84 
Returning to Editor Dustin V. S.'s question, other cases exist where |format=pdf should be used. The New York Times, for example, publishes archived copies of old articles in PDF format but the URLs don't end in .pdf so a reader has no way of knowing that the link to the article is not the usual HTML that is used for archival of more recent articles:
"Resolute Beats All Cup Course Records" (pdf). The New York Times. 11 June 1914. 
Trappist the monk (talk) 23:58, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
Since the |format= value is displayed without the period, I would add "PDF" in uppercase because it's an acronym. GoingBatty (talk) 04:11, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
And then someone will notice MOS:ACRO and demand that it will be spelled out as "Portable Document Format" rather than abbreviated, no doubt... —David Eppstein (talk) 04:19, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

At MediaWiki:Common.css, the file extensions that change the normal external link icon to the pdf icon are .pdf, .pdf?, .pdf# (also in uppercase, but not mixed case). It occurs to me that it is relatively simple to test urls for these extensions. I've hacked a test into Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox that tests the url that is applied to the archive link. If the file extension is one of the Common.css recognized extensions then the code adds what amounts to |archive-format=PDF to the rendered citation (there is no such parameter).

The other thing I did was to shrink the size of the format annotation. Editor GoingBatty noted that because PDF is an acronym, it should be capitalized. I have always found that to be rather loud so have usually done |format=pdf as you can see from my New York Times example above. In the experiment, I set the annotation to 85% of the surrounding text. These examples are encloded in {{ref begin}} and {{ref end}} to mimic how reduced size format annotation might look in real reference lists.

"Title" (PDF). Archived from the original (PDF) on 2012. 
"Title" (PDF). Archived (PDF) from the original on 2012.  (|deadurl=no)

Trappist the monk (talk) 14:58, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

"ed." and "eds." option[edit]

Would an editor with coding skills be able to add a parameter allowing for the display of "ed." and/or "eds." when the "editor=" field(s) are used? My concern is that the following two citations are significantly different:

However, when using {{cite book}}, the two will appear identically on the page if the standard parameters "first=" and "editor-first", etc., are used. I've taken to adding "ed."/"eds." in the "editor-first" parameter, but I'm sure this is messing up the COinS data. If this option doesn't currently exist, could a coder create it, please? Many thanks.  White Whirlwind  咨  16:26, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

@White whirlwind: The template already does what you want, when you use the appropriate parameters.
Using |first= and |last=:
  • Doe, John (2015). A History Book. Anywhere: Book Publishing. 
Using |editor-first= and |editor-last=:
  • Doe, John, ed. (2015). A History Book. Anywhere: Book Publishing. 
Using |editor1-first= |editor1-last= |editor2-first= and |editor2-last=:
  • Doe, John; Roe, Richard, eds. (2015). A History Book. Anywhere: Book Publishing. 
|first=/|last= are for an author, while |editor-first=/|editor-last= are for an editor, complete with the "ed.". As you can see, if you specify multiple editors, it automatically switches to "eds.". Imzadi 1979  16:57, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
@Imzadi1979: Thanks for your speedy reply! I'm glad to know this already exists! I have one further question: is it by design that the "ed."/"eds." do not display when a chapter in an edited book is cited? For example:
  • Knechtges, David; Chang, Taiping, eds. (2010). Ancient and Early Medieval Chinese Literature: A Reference Guide, Part One. Leiden: Brill. 
  • Knechtges, David R. (2010). "Ban Gu 班固". In Knechtges, David; Chang, Taiping. Ancient and Early Medieval Chinese Literature: A Reference Guide, Part One. Leiden: Brill. pp. 6–16. 
I know it's obvious that the second two are editors from the context, but it would be nice stylistically to have the consistent inclusion of "ed."/"eds." as an option. White Whirlwind  咨  17:27, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
The 'In <Editor> ...' formatting was introduced with the transition from {{citation/core}} to Module:Citation/CS1. Clearly it was done intentionally and is briefly mentioned at Module talk:Citation/CS1/Archive 3#Multi-phase transition to Lua cites. I didn't find the discussions that led to that decision; they may be in the archives of the individual template talk pages.
Trappist the monk (talk) 18:11, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

One other short discussion here (December 2012). Note that Talk page archives that use {{cite journal}} and other templates will render the citation as the template currently renders it, so examples given by editors may not match the description given in the editor's explanation or request.
The APA does it the way we do for chapters within books, but with "(Ed.)" after the editor's name. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:29, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
I have no problem with the "In <editor(s)>" form, in fact I kind of like it. I just wish that for stylistic consistency it was possible to include "ed." without breaking COinS data.  White Whirlwind  咨  22:39, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Personally, I think we should add ", ed." and ", eds." as appropriate in that case, but that will require some discussion. In one situation, we will need a way to add the name of an author of a contribution in a book that wasn't edited; in other words, how to cite the forward or introduction to a book. Because of the ambiguity caused by dropping "ed." or "eds.", some of us have been able to exploit that with something like:

  • Phipps, Makena Elizabeth (2004). "Forward". In Phipps, Terry W. Seasons of Sleeping Bear. Ann Arbor, MI: University of Michigan Press. p. 5. ISBN 0-472-11445-X. 

I suppose that we could switch that to:

  • Phipps, Terry W. (2004). Seasons of Sleeping Bear. Forward by Makena Elizabether Phipps. Ann Arbor, MI: University of Michigan Press. p. 5. ISBN 0-472-11445-X. 

but that doesn't make it clear that the text being cited on p. 5 is from the Forward. In several citation styles, the preface materials like the Forward or an Introduction are cited like a contribution in an edited book, but because there are no editors involved, "ed." or "eds." would be dropped. I know that we have {tl|harvc}} now, but that seems a clumsy way to create a single footnote in Pierce Stocking Scenic Drive. Imzadi 1979  23:23, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

"translator=" field[edit]

Hi all,

Is there any chance a Lua proficient editor might be able to add a "translator-first"/"translator-last=" functionality to deal with published translated titles. We have the "trans_title=" field now, but that doesn't help for works such as:

  • Gong, Kechang 龔克昌, translated by David R. Knechtges (1997). Studies on the Han Fu (Han fu yanjiu 漢賦研究). New Haven: American Oriental Society.

In the above citation on fu (poetry), I had to add the "translated by..." stuff in "first=", which I'm sure is terrible template usage protocol. Is there a way to do this currently, or could we possibly add this functionality otherwise? Thanks.  White Whirlwind  咨  22:49, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Try this:
{{cite book |last=Gong |first=Kechang 龔克昌 |others=translated by David R. Knechtges |date=1997 |trans-title=Studies on the Han Fu |title=Han fu yanjiu |script-title=漢賦研究 |location=New Haven |publisher=American Oriental Society}}
Gong, Kechang 龔克昌 (1997). Han fu yanjiu 漢賦研究 [Studies on the Han Fu]. translated by David R. Knechtges. New Haven: American Oriental Society. 
Trappist the monk (talk) 22:58, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
@Trappist the monk: Not a bad workaround, thanks. That will work until a formal option is added (fingers crossed).  White Whirlwind  咨  06:52, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


A link to a lay summary can be included in {{cite book}} via the |lay-url= parameter, but there doesn't seem to be any way to indicate the format, eg PDF. Would it be possible to add a |lay-url-format= parameter for this purpose? - Evad37 [talk] 00:07, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

I presume that this is related to this citation in Forrest Highway:
{{Cite book | author1=Main Roads Department | title=Main Roads Dept. of Western Australia: Collection of Ephemera Materials |location=Western Australia |date=1952–{{CURRENTYEAR}} | url= |type=Various items |at=Call No. PR8302/161 |layurl= |laysource=State Library of Western Australia: List of items in this collection |quote="An invitation to the official opening of the Old Coast Road and a map of the Old Coast Road. 19 September 1969"}}
Main Roads Department (1952–2015). Main Roads Dept. of Western Australia: Collection of Ephemera Materials (Various items). Western Australia. Call No. PR8302/161. Lay summaryState Library of Western Australia: List of items in this collection. An invitation to the official opening of the Old Coast Road and a map of the Old Coast Road. 19 September 1969 
I wonder if this is a proper use of |lay-url= and |lay-source=. Would it not be more appropriate to split this single citation into two:
{{Cite web | author1=Main Roads Department | title=Main Roads Dept. of Western Australia: Collection of Ephemera Materials |website=[[State Library of Western Australia]] |location=Western Australia |accessdate=2015-03-20 | url=}}
Main Roads Department. "Main Roads Dept. of Western Australia: Collection of Ephemera Materials". State Library of Western Australia. Western Australia. Retrieved 2015-03-20. 
{{Cite web |title=Ephemera PR8302 |website=[[State Library of Western Australia]] |location=Western Australia |accessdate=2015-03-20 | url= |format=pdf |at=Call No. PR8302/161 |quote=An invitation to the official opening of the Old Coast Road and a map of the Old Coast Road. 19 September 1969}}
"Ephemera PR8302" (pdf). State Library of Western Australia. Western Australia. Call No. PR8302/161. Retrieved 2015-03-20. An invitation to the official opening of the Old Coast Road and a map of the Old Coast Road. 19 September 1969 
Regardless, we should probably have a format parameter for every url parameter.
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:53, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
Splitting into two {{cite ...}}s (along the lines of <ref>{{cite book|postscript=,|...}} summarised in {{cite web|...}}</ref>) is probably a good idea in this specific case, as the first isn't actually a technical work, just hard to access with an easily accessed (online) summary. But in general, one should be able to specify formats for the url parameters. - Evad37 [talk] 23:49, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Additional link to doi, bibcode, arxiv, etc. via the url parameter[edit]

I recently had a brief argument with User:The Vintage Feminist about what constitutes good practice in citation cleanup. The bone of contention was this edit, where she added links to the |url= option of citation templates that already included DOI information in the |doi= option. In some cases, she also added JSTOR IDs, which led to citations like this:

This is now three times the same link information. The Vintage Feminist appeals to the fact that WP:INTREF3 encourages people to "fill in as much information as possible about the source," but I wonder if this is link overkill rather than good practice. Any opinions on this, or maybe guidelines I'm not aware of? --bender235 (talk) 05:34, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Those additional links are useful and do more good than harm. Sometimes does not work correctly, or JSTOR may point a reader to a different way to access the article. In this case, the JSTOR link and the DOI link point to two different pages. A reader may have access to the full PDF version of the article via one of those pages but not the other, depending on where they are when they are viewing the page.
I have also seen it argued that readers are more likely to click on a linked article title (which |url= provides) than on an obscure series of letters and numbers and symbols following a cryptic initialism. I haven't done A/B usability testing with readers to find out if this is true, but it seems reasonable to me. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:49, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't really buy the "alternative link" argument, since in the cases I'm arguing, both |doi= and |url= provide exactly the same external link ( in this case). What's the point of having the same link twice? --bender235 (talk) 15:27, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
I provided two rationales. In your first sentence, you appear to conflate the rationales. The "alternative link" rationale, my first paragraph, applies to the fact that in your example, there are two pieces of data that link to two different web pages.
Having the same link twice is my second rationale, which I have seen suggested in the past. The point of having the same link twice, as I said in my second paragraph, is that readers may be more familiar with the behavior of a linked set of words than they are with a linked set of numbers, letters, and other characters. You and I do not know that this is true, but it is at least a reasonable argument. Having both a URL and a DOI does not make the citation any longer when it is rendered. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:37, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps another way of looking at this is to consider the question: "What would be gained by removing one of the links?" The citation would then be one of these three:
In the first example, the JSTOR link has been lost, JSTOR is subscription free through a number of library/university logins, where doi might not be. In the second example, in the academic world doi numbers are a signifier of academic credibility, but it is not visible. In the final example, as Jonesey95 has pointed out, the citation has not been made any shorter but has become less user-friendly to those who are unfamiliar with doi / jstor numbers. So I don't see the benefit of losing one of the links. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 16:29, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
In the first example, the JSTOR link has been lost, JSTOR is subscription free through a number of library/university logins, where doi might not be.
Nothing is lost, because, doi:10.2307/1884513, and JSTOR 1884513 link to exactly the same page. Turns out they don't in this case. Weird, I've never seen any DOI link in the "10.2307" domain not going to JSTOR.
In case there's a misunderstanding: I am not advocating the removal of JSTOR and/or URL in general, but only in cases where the information is redudant. Such as in the above case. --bender235 (talk) 16:36, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
True, adding all those options does not make the citation longer, but nonetheless it is the equivalent of linking every word in a sentence. It is simply distracting. --bender235 (talk) 16:33, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
I concur. If we follow this rationale, then for consistency, when the template has |isbn= then the template must also have |title-link=Special:BookSources/123456789X and similarly for arXiv, ASIN, Bibcode ..., Zbl. Yeah, sure, nothing is 'harmed' but it sure seems like a waste of time.
Trappist the monk (talk) 16:51, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Using the doi URL in the |url= I think is a bad idea. But using the JSTOR link in addition is fine with me. Jason Quinn (talk) 10:55, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Vancouver style error[edit]

The recent module update that included the changes discussed in name-list-format is now generating a enormous number of "Vancouver style errors" which I think are unintended. RomanASCII. ASCII is a subset of Roman characters. Roman characters include characters with diacritical marks. I am no expert on character sets, but allowed Roman characters would seem to include Unicode characters in the range of 0000 to 036F (Latin character set) and exclude Unicode 0370 and higher (Greek, Cyrillic, Arabic, etc.). PubMed which uses Vancouver style authors and is the source of the citation data that is used in many Wiki articles, clearly allows for extended Roman characters in author names (see for example, PMID: 15196329). Boghog (talk) 13:11, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure that characters with diacritical marks are included in the Roman characters. I've been watching for the introduction of a new law about vital records in my state, and the last time they tried, they wanted to restrict names on birth certificates to Roman letters, which was interpreted to exclude diacritical marks. Since our so-called Vancouver style is only quasi-Vancouver, I would think we would want to allow diacritical marks, regardless of whether the official Vancouver style guide (if such a thing exists) allows them or not. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:24, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
The Romanization requirement is in what appears to be the Vancouver style guide.
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:34, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
OK, I now see that the The NLM Style Guide for Authors, Editors, and Publishers states Ignore diacritics, accents, and special characters in names. (e.g., Å treated as A). However PubMed does not follow this recommendation and NLM/PubMed is the de facto Vancouver System standard (see Vancouver_system#History) and is also the source of much of Wikipedia's citation data. I think we should follow PubMed practice and allow extended Roman characters. The alternative is to replace these characters but this would cause an enormous amount of work with no real benefit to our readers. Boghog (talk) 13:41, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Jc3s5h, we should allow diacritical marks regardless. Boghog (talk) 13:41, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
If PubMed uses diacritical marks, we should consider hiding this red error message until we come to a consensus on whether to permit or eliminate (and how to eliminate, if we so choose) the marks from existing articles that use the Vancouver style. (I am amending this comment to say that there are currently 16 articles in Category:CS1 errors: Vancouver style, a number that will surely grow, but which I would not classify as "enormous".) – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:05, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
  • The module was just updated. Existing articles must be edited for purged before the error message occurs. Also there is a lag between when an error displayed in an article and when it shows up in the CS1 error category. I guarantee you that within a few days, this number will be huge. Boghog (talk) 15:20, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
  • The use of extended Latin characters in citation authors in Wikipedia is wide spread and has been so for a very long time. Tools and bots that generate citations that support extended Latin characters include WP:REFTOOLS, User:Diberri/Template filler, and User:Citation bot. Clearly the current consensus is that extended Latin characters are allowed. A new consensus would need to be established to classify extended Latin characters as citation errors, even if these errors are only generated when |name-list-author=vanc is invoked. Even PubMed doesn't follow this particular author style recommendation. Why should we? Boghog (talk) 15:54, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Use of foreign letters in an English context still presents problems of classification and sortng, but it's not like the "old" days when many publications could not even produce diacritical and other foreign letters. But modern typography is more capable, and even on the English Wikipedia there is a trend to a more global orthography. {{Citation}} already accomodates diacrticals, Vancouver style should not be an exception. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:34, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Agreed. The NLM Style Guide states, "Ignore diacritics, accents, and special characters in names ... to simplify rules for English-language publications." However displaying diacritical marks is no longer a technical problem using modern publication methods. Hence this particular NLM guideline is antiquated and is no longer followed even by PubMed. While non-Latin characters must be romanized in Wikipedia (see MOS:ROMANIZATION), Latin diacritical marks are allowed (MOS:DIACRITICS). In addition, by using metadata, someone might want to transfer Vancouver style references to another article that uses the default CS1 style that allows diacritical marks. Stripping out the diacritical marks from the Vancouver style references represents an unnecessary loss of information that will adversely impact the transferability of these citations into different citation formats. Boghog (talk) 14:11, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes. If there is any real need to dediacriticise (!) perhaps that could be done with a template, thus preserving the fuller form. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:15, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
Unicode 0x0000–0x036F consists of seven defined groups:
  1. 0000–007F C0 Controls and Basic Latin (C0 Controls: 0000–0020)
  2. 0080–00FF C1 Controls and Latin-1 Supplement (C1 Controls: 0080–00A0 & 00AD)
  3. 0100–017F Latin Extended-A
  4. 0180–024F Latin Extended-B
  5. 0250–02AF IPA Extensions
  6. 02B0–02FF Spacing Modifier Letters
  7. 0300–036F Combining Diacritical Marks
It would seem that if we choose to disregard the NLM Style Guide then the range of characters that we allow should be 0021–007F, 00A1–00AC, 00AE–024F.
Trappist the monk (talk) 12:29, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes, those ranges make sense. Per MOS:ROMANIZATION, shouldn't this restriction not only apply to |author-name-list=vanc but also to the default author format? Although before expanding the scope of the check, I think we would need wider consensus. Just for curiosities sake, implementing this type of check in standard Lua appears non-trivial. Can this be done with something like utf8.find? Boghog (talk) 14:37, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
This whole test was added because it was pointed out that the NLM Style Guide (Vancouver) requires Romanization. It would seem, if we are to apply MOS:ROMANIZATION to non-Vancouver-style author/editor names, then MOS:ROMANIZATION should also apply to everything else in a CS1/2 citation. If that is the case then there can be no titles in Cyrillic, Japanese, Hebrew, Thai, etc and there are a lot of those.
Though kind of ugly, this might work:
for codepoint in mw.ustring.gcodepoint( s ) do
	if 33 > codepoint					-- C0 controls
		or 128 >= codepoint and 160 <= codepoint	-- most C1 controls
		or 173 == codepoint				-- odd-man-out C1 control
		or 591 < codepoint then				-- codepoints beyond Latin Extended-B
			-- error message stuff
We might simplify and just accept everything below codepoint 592 (0x0250) on the theory that C0 and C1 controls would be an unlikely part of a name.
Trappist the monk (talk) 15:26, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Ah, thanks. With the mw.ustring library, it is still somewhat messy, but not as difficult as I first thought. Boghog (talk) 17:07, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Some editors are starting to Romanize author names to eliminate these errors and there appears to be a developing consensus that this is unnecessary. Is there any way the current error message can be suppressed until a solution that has consensus has been implemented? The only argument that has been advanced in favor of the error message is the NLM Romanization guideline and there appears consensus above that we should ignore this particular guideline. Furthermore no one has raised any objections to following PubMed practice of using extended Latin characters. Boghog (talk) 17:06, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
I concur. There is no urgency regarding this "error", and prompting editors to make changes where matters are yet unsettled leads to instability and confusion. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:47, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: Please suppress this error message. In the mean time, I have boldly warned editors to ignore this message. Boghog (talk) 20:21, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

With your bold warning, is it really necessary to dump a couple of million pages onto the job queue for simply changing hidden = false to hidden = true?
OK, thanks for your reply. I thought there might be a way of suppressing the message that didn't require modifying the template code. I will be patient. Boghog (talk) 19:01, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
It occurred to me this afternoon while I was doing something completely unrelated that we can still use the lua patterns to solve this problem. The above code snippet is really pretty ugly and in fact would have gotten uglier. This pattern that I concocted in the debug window is, I think, better:
=mw.ustring.find("a Ëb-c ɏÝ'a", "^[A-Za-zÀ-ÖØ-öø-ƿDŽ-ɏ%-%s%']*$")
The pattern includes, I think, all the letters in the Latin range of 0000–024F, jumping over things like × (00D7) and ÷ (00F7) etc.
Trappist the monk (talk) 00:53, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
I am ignorant on the specifics of Lua, but I believe that in many programming languages the mappinng/ordering of characters is dependent on a locale setting. Is that a factor here? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 04:23, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't think so.
I have managed to try the pattern I identified above, not without some struggle. It seems that the code editor gets confused regarding character and cursor position – I could put the cursor at a place, and the next character I typed ended up in some other position. Writing the line here and then copy/pasting it there worked.
Cite book compare
{{ cite book | name-list-format=vanc | last=Waśniowska | first=J. Paul | last2=Gómez-Coronado | last3=Kühme | title=Title | last4=DŽǻlĕç | first2=Suárez | first4=d | first3=T }}
Live Waśniowska J. Paul, Gómez-Coronado Suárez, Kühme T, DŽǻlĕç d. Title.  Vancouver style error (help)
Sandbox Waśniowska JP, Gómez-Coronado S, Kühme T, DŽǻlĕç d. Title. 
This appears to work. The first three names are taken from article space, the last one is concocted from various letters in the four Latin code sets.
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Your solution looks brilliant! Thanks :-) Boghog (talk) 19:04, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Add a 'volume-b=' parameter that skips the four-chr test for bolding?[edit]

I just learned from a discussion above that bolding of |volume= is conditioned on having four or fewer characters. I don't know why that limit was picked; presumably it serves some useful purpose. But it does lead to some inconsistent results. Would it be possible to have something like |volume-b= that would be identical to Volume= in all respects except that it skips the the four-chr test, and thus always does bolding? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:53, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Some history. The suggestion to wrap the volume value in wikimarkup (|volume='''MCMLXXXIV''') corrupts the COinS metadata so that shouldn't be considered as a way to get around this 'constraint'.
Trappist the monk (talk) 00:03, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
For sure a parameter value should never include wikimarkup. But that is irrelevant to what I am asking. The current code already generates bolded output, and apparently without corrupting COinS. What I am asking should make no difference in how such bolding is done, only in when the existing test is applied. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:15, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

cite episode and cite serial[edit]

Last two and I've put them off as long as I could but now its time to migrate these two template into Module:Citation/CS1. I'm thinking to do them at the same time because they are related and share common peculiarities that are different from the rest of the CS1 suite. I will notify Wikipedia:WikiProject Television which seems to be the parent project of a whole raft of other projects that use {{cite episode}} and {{cite serial}}. Are there any other projects that should participate?

Trappist the monk (talk) 16:26, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Are they really the last two, or is {{Cite arXiv}} on the list as well? See above. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:30, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Trappist the monk (talk) 14:50, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

cite episode[edit]

Some parameters in {{cite episode}} are different/new and that will require some thinking:

  1. |credits= alias of |author(s)= – while not necessarily confined to this template, this sort of catch-all parameter often includes text that might not properly belong in the citation's COinS metadata. For example I have seen things like |credits=John Smith (producer); Jane Doe (director). We need to think about how to do this kind of attribution in a better way.
  2. |transcript=, |transcripturl= – assigned to {{citation/core}} meta-parameter |Other=
  3. |airdate= – alias of |date=
  4. |began= and |ended= – combined to become a date range as an alias of |date=; should probably be deprecated because Module:Citation/CS1 supports date ranges
  5. |serieslink= – alias of |title-link=
  6. |episodelink= – makes my head hurt; this parameter is used in {{citation/core}} meta-parameters |TransTitle=, |IncludedWorkTitle=, and |Series=; some of this arose from this conversation
  7. in-source location supports |at=, |minutes=, |timecaption=, |time=|page= or |pages= are not supported
  8. |id= gets |network= and |station= – probably a misuse of |id=

Trappist the monk (talk) 17:29, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Why is it that the current live {{citation/core}} version of {{cite episode}} doesn't display the value from |seriesno= when |season= is set? Shouldn't it? These four show that |episodelink= does not effect the output:

Cite episode compare
{{ cite episode | number=Number | episodelink= | seriesno=Series# | title=Mission to the Unknown | season=Season | series=Doctor Who | serieslink=Doctor Who }}
Live "Mission to the Unknown". Doctor Who. Season Season. Episode Number. 
Sandbox "Mission to the Unknown". Doctor Who. Season Season. Episode Number.  More than one of |season= and |seriesno= specified (help)
Cite episode compare
{{ cite episode | number= | episodelink= | seriesno=Series# | title=Mission to the Unknown | season=Season | series=Doctor Who | serieslink=Doctor Who }}
Live "Mission to the Unknown". Doctor Who. Season Season. 
Sandbox "Mission to the Unknown". Doctor Who. Season Season.  More than one of |season= and |seriesno= specified (help)
Cite episode compare
{{ cite episode | number=Number | episodelink=Mission to the Unknown | seriesno=Series# | title=Mission to the Unknown | season=Season | series=Doctor Who | serieslink=Doctor Who }}
Live "Mission to the Unknown". Doctor Who. Season Season. Episode Number. 
Sandbox "Mission to the Unknown". Doctor Who. Season Season. Episode Number.  More than one of |season= and |seriesno= specified (help)
Cite episode compare
{{ cite episode | number= | episodelink=Mission to the Unknown | seriesno=Series# | title=Mission to the Unknown | season=Season | series=Doctor Who | serieslink=Doctor Who }}
Live "Mission to the Unknown". Doctor Who. Season Season. 
Sandbox "Mission to the Unknown". Doctor Who. Season Season.  More than one of |season= and |seriesno= specified (help)

This one shows that |seriesno= displays when |number= is set:

Cite episode compare
{{ cite episode | number=Number | episodelink=Mission to the Unknown | seriesno=Series# | title=Mission to the Unknown | season= | series=Doctor Who | serieslink=Doctor Who }}
Live "Mission to the Unknown". Doctor Who. Series Series#. Episode Number. 
Sandbox "Mission to the Unknown". Doctor Who. Series Series#. Episode Number. 

And this one shows that |seriesno= displays when it alone is set:

Cite episode compare
{{ cite episode | number= | episodelink=Mission to the Unknown | seriesno=Series# | title=Mission to the Unknown | season= | series=Doctor Who | serieslink=Doctor Who }}
Live "Mission to the Unknown". Doctor Who. Series Series#. 
Sandbox "Mission to the Unknown". Doctor Who. Series Series#. 

Trappist the monk (talk) 18:06, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

|seriesno= and |season= are alternatives. |seriesno= is generally used by UK and Australian programmes, while |season= is used by US, Canadian and some Australian programs. US terminology seems to dominate the world these days so, since "season" is used more than "series" I'd assume that its use overrides "series". --AussieLegend () 18:31, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks but that still leaves the unanswered question: Should |seriesno= be displayed even if |season= is set? If not, should there be an error message?
Trappist the monk (talk) 18:38, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Because they are alternatives, if both are set there should be an error message. --AussieLegend () 19:08, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

This one may be done. See Template:Cite episode/testcases and feel free to add others if there is something there that you think should be.

Trappist the monk (talk) 21:42, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Search for insource:/\|began=/ shows 338 uses of |began=, 227 empty. Obsolete and update to |date=}. -- Gadget850 talk 12:47, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
In the module, |began= and |ended= are deprecated and the module code promotes their content to the meta-parameter |Date=. After the migration, a simple AWB script can fix the extant uses and we can then obsolete these parameters.
"Title". Series. 1 December 1998 – 7 January 1999. 
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:22, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

cite serial[edit]

Some parameters in {{cite serial}} are different/new and that will require some thinking:

  1. |transcript=, |transcripturl= – assigned to {{citation/core}} meta-parameter |Other=
  2. |airdate= – alias of |date=
  3. |began= and |ended= – combined to become a date range as an alias of |date=; should probably be deprecated because Module:Citation/CS1 supports date ranges
  4. |episode= – alias of |chapter=
  5. in addition to |page=, |pages=, and |at=, in-source location supports |minutes=, |timecaption=, and |time=
  6. |serieslink= – different from {{cite episode}}, applies to |series=
  7. |id= gets |network= and |station= – probably a misuse of |id=

Trappist the monk (talk) 17:46, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I use {{cite episode}} all the time but I wasn't aware of the existence of {{cite serial}}. Having all of the talk pages for these templates redirecting here makes it impossible to work out which projects are affected. Doctor Who seems to be a heavy user of {{cite serial}}, but it's also used elsewhere, although I don't see any projects that need notification in the articles I checked. As for "wishes, desires, bitches, or complaints", as long as cite episode still works as it does now, I don't see any issues. As a bit of guidance, I've generally found that the most commonly used parameters are:
 | title = 
 | episodelink = 
 | series = 
 | serieslink = 
 | network = 
 | station = 
 | date = 
 | season = 
 | seriesno = 
 | number = 
 | minutes = 
 | time = 
 | quote = 
Others are used, but seem less common. --AussieLegend () 12:57, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

This makes my head hurt. Here is the statement of purpose from {{cite episode}}:

This Citation Style 1 template is used to create citations for television or radio programs and episodes.

and the same from {{cite serial}}:

This Citation Style 1 template is used to create citations for broadcast programs (television, radio, web) which use individual titles for a collection of episodes.

From this one might conclude that {{cite serial}} refers to or cites the named group of episodes. Yet, {{cite serial}} has a parameter |episode=. Why? If one is citing an episode, then oughtn't one use {{cite episode}}? I note that {{cite episode}} doesn't have a |episode= parameter.

So, what to do about this? Since {{cite serial}} is transcluded in less than 200 articles, perhaps it should be modified so that it can't refer to episodes?

Trappist the monk (talk) 12:40, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Merge {{cite serial}} to {{cite episode}}. -- Gadget850 talk 12:44, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
WP:WikiProject Doctor Who make this distinction at WP:WHOCITE:
{{Cite serial}} puts the serial title in italics, and the episode title in quotation marks. It should be used when citing a serial from the classic series as a whole, or an individual episode from a serial.
{{Cite episode}} puts the episode title in quotation marks. It should be used when citing episodes of the revived series.
Not being a member of that project, this makes no sense to me. I'll invite comment from them.
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:05, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I haven't edited with these templates before, but being familiar with classic Doctor Who, each season of that show is divided into serials (stories), which are then further divided into individually broadcast episodes or parts. Hence the need to put a serial title in between an individual episode title and the series title in citations (there are examples at WP:WHOCITE). I don't see why the two templates couldn't be merged, as long as the ability to enter an episode title, serial title, and series title is maintained (but disclaimer: I don't edit articles with these templates, I just saw this discussion) - Evad37 [talk] 14:25, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Note that the examples are displaying oddly because some parameters were removed with this September 2012 edit [15] - Evad37 [talk] 01:11, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't see a clear path to merging these two templates so I think I have migrated {{cite serial}}; see Template:cite serial/testcases. The glaringly obvious difference is that the {{citation/core}} version does not support |credits= while the module sandbox does (because the {{citation/core}} version of {{cite episode}} does). This parameter was removed in September 2012 (though no one appears to have noticed). Two other parameters were removed from the template code in April 2012 but may still exist in article text are |season= and |number=. The module simply ignores these when encountered.

Trappist the monk (talk) 14:50, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Cite arXiv doesn't give an error when last2, first2, and author2 all exist[edit]

I'm not sure if this is a bug or a feature. I'm referring to this version of Deneb and this particular citation: {{cite arXiv |last1=Turon |first1=C. |last2=Luri |first2=X. |last3=Masana |first3=E. |date=2012 |title=Building the cosmic distance scale: From Hipparcos to Gaia |eprint=1202.3645 |class=astro-ph.IM |author2=Xavier Luri |author3=Eduard Masana }}   ~ Tom.Reding (talkcontribsdgaf)  13:14, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

{{cite arxiv}} does not use Module:Citation/CS1, so no error messages.
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:20, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

{cite map} oddity[edit]

Overall, I'm very pleased with the changes made with {{cite map}} to convert it over to use the Lua module and make it more consistent with the other CS1 templates and academic citation standards. One little weird thing has popped up though.

  1. Michigan Department of Transportation (2014). State Transportation Map (Map). 1 in≈15 mi / 1 cm≈9 km. Lansing: Michigan Department of Transportation. §§ A1–B2. 
  2. Colorado State Highway Department (July 1923). "New Map Showing the 8,880 Miles Which Comprise Colorado's Primary Highway System" (Map). Colorado Highways. Scale not given 2 (7): 12–13. OCLC 11880590. Retrieved November 18, 2013 – via Google Books. 
  3. Rand McNally (2013). "Michigan" (Map). The Road Atlas. 1 in≈20 mi. Chicago: Rand McNally. §§ A1–B1. ISBN 0-528-00626-6. 
  4. Rand McNally (2013). "Michigan" (Road map). The Road Atlas. 1 in≈20 mi. Chicago: Rand McNally. §§ A1–B1. ISBN 0-528-00626-6. 

If the map is a sheet map, or a map in a journal, as in the first two examples above, then the "(Map)." appears after the name of the map. For a sheet map (#1), that title is in italics; for a map in a journal (#2), it's in quotation marks while the journal is italicized. If it's a map in a book (#3) though, "(Map)." is missing instead of appearing after the map name in quotation marks. If |type=Road map (or some other type of map) is defined (#4), then the type shows up as expected, but the default isn't appearing as it should. If this can be fixed, it would be great. Imzadi 1979  05:36, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Fixed, I think, in the sandbox. I've tweaked #s 2, 3, 4 to use {{cite map/new}}.
Trappist the monk (talk) 11:44, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Sounds and looks good. Thanks for all of your work getting us to where we are on the template. Imzadi 1979  15:25, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Article style template[edit]

I created {{article style}} as an edit notice for to indicate various styles within an article. -- Gadget850 talk 12:51, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

That looks helpful for editors. Do you have a grand vision that templates like {{Use British English}} and {{Use dmy dates}} could be merged into this new template? – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:53, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes. Need to roll through Category:Editnotice templates.
Currently only admins can create article edit notices, and the system for non-admins is cumbersome. I have some thoughts on that. -- Gadget850 talk 19:22, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Re "only admins...", I have run into that inconvenience in the past. It would be nice if having the article style template at the top of an article made the edit notice appear (admins could still do custom notices, I suppose), but I don't know any of the technical details that make WP work the way it currently does. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:07, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Users with the template-editor right can also created edit notices. I'm willing, within reason, to create them for people. I'm sure others with the TE right would feel similarly, although they may not be aware that they have the ability. Imzadi 1979  22:01, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
I've nominated this template for discussion. I like the concept of having this information readily available, but I oppose this approach due to getting users with elevated privileges involved in style changes, and the screen space the notice would occupy, which is an activity where users need all the screen space they can get. Jc3s5h (talk) 22:16, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Date parameter[edit]

I want to give the date as "Christmas 2007", but |date=Christmas 2007 throws up an error. Eric Corbett 18:20, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Will |issue=Christmas 2007 work? Do you have a specific example from a specific article? That always helps. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:35, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
The issue parameter is intended for the issue number, for those periodicals that assign numbers for their issues (usually, but not always, starting at 1 in January). If the date printed in the magazine is "Christmas 2007" that's the date, and Eric is right and the error message is wrong. So the options are just leave the error message, format that particular citation by hand, or rip all the citation templates out of the article and use some non-template citation method for the articles. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Why can't it be the "Christmas of 2007" issue? If "Christmas, 2007" is taken as a date (though not a style we really recognize) it implies the date of the issue really was December 25, 2007. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:43, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
I was going to try to give you a good answer, but it's all wrapped up in the different placement of the date depending on whether an author is named for an article in a periodical. So I decline to explain myself until that bug is fixed. Jc3s5h (talk) 22:02, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
That's fine. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:13, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
In addition, note that the publication may also have a conventional issue number - which would be lost if Christmas 2007 was used as the issue - really this is no different than Winter 2007, which is allowable.Nigel Ish (talk) 22:06, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
A specific example is ref #130 in the Stretford article. Eric Corbett 22:32, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Five more examples: Northern Rail ref #4, Mario Kart: Double Dash‼ ref #33, Populous: The Beginning ref #23, Strange (TV series) ref #1, and Desiré Wilson ref #4. GoingBatty (talk) 22:41, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
This looks like a real thing. The linked source in Northern Rail gives its date as "Christmas 2004". The Mario Kart and Populous articles cite a magazine called Edge that published issues with issue numbers and "Christmas YYYY" dates (example). The Strange article cites SFX magazine, which has also published issues with issue numbers and dates of Christmas YYYY. That's enough proof for me that "Christmas YYYY" is a real date for citation purposes. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:32, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Cite book compare
{{ cite book | date=Christmas 2015 | title=Title }}
Live Title. Christmas 2015.  Check date values in: |date= (help)
Sandbox Title. Christmas 2015. 

Trappist the monk (talk) 12:38, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

When is that likely to go live? Eric Corbett

Cite:_web problem.[edit]

I would really like a way to insert a {{rp}} for web sites, like you can for books. Let us take a highly newsworthy murder and trial, for example. There may be dozens of articles from, along with various other news organizations, but then the ref list gets really long, really quick. Wouldn't it make more sense to line up references with RP for one single site? If there is a way to do that, would you mind sharing it with me (on my talk page, please)? While I understand that for books, the RP displays page numbers inline, but who says the web version has to do that? Why not over a hover with the webpage link for that citation? Let's say we name one that functions similarly as {{Wcp}}, (that is template:wcp). The markup would look like:

{{wcp| killer_convicted}}

Then inline text would look like article text....1.1, so when you hover over the 1.1, it provides the full citation (as any well-done citation does) with a clickable link to that particular article. Does this make sense?

MagnoliaSouth (talk) 19:13, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

{{cite journal}} (and others) : linking supplementary material?[edit]

Quite a few papers are accompanied by extra stuff (raw data, full experiment transcripts, elaborated proofs, source code, …, and for conference submissions more and more often talk slides and even recordings.) When reading a paper, having access to these is helpful.

The template currently only supports linking the main paper and a (single?) "laysummary". Adding separate citations for all of these materials isn't really an option – this would clutter the list, or may not fit the format (e.g. in the section "selected bibliography/works" of a person's page.) Leaving out these links means that everyone who's interested has to search for them. (And has to think of searching for these – if the paper doesn't mention the existence of extra materials, this may not happen.)

How should these supplementary materials be handled? (Just ignore that they exist, or include them in some way?)

If they should be included, should the template(s) be extended with extra fields (or a single, free-form-ish one) to accommodate these? (Or is there a better way?) (talk) 01:48, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

You can always just add links to the additional material at the end of the template-generated citation within the <ref>...</ref> tags.
  • <ref>{{cite journal ...}} [ Raw data]. [ Talk slides].</ref>
Something like that should work if you customize it to whatever you extra materials you wanted to include. Imzadi 1979  02:06, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

cite arxiv[edit]

In considering how best to migrate {{cite arxiv}}, I have answered this feature request. |class= is used in {{cite arxiv}} to append the assigned value to the arxiv identifier. If |arxiv= is empty or omitted, |class= is ignored. There is no error checking of the value assigned to |class=.

Indelicato, Paul (2004). "Exotic Atoms". Physica Scripta T112 (1): 20–26. arXiv:physics/0409058 [physics.atom-ph]. Bibcode:2004PhST..112...20I. doi:10.1238/Physica.Topical.112a00020. 

{{cite arxiv}} is an odd duck. In its current guise it is {{cite journal}} without a proper journal title though it uses the {{citation/core}} meta-parameter |Periodical= to hold the external link to the arXiv page.

{{cite arxiv}} has some parameters that are new to Module:Citation/CS1:

  1. |class= – mentioned above
  2. |eprint= – apparently an alias of |arxiv=
  3. |version= – not actually new to the module but used in a different way. In the module, |version= is an alias of |serial= and is used in other CS1/2 templates to identify different versions of things in the rendered citation. In relation to arxiv identifiers, |version= is a suffix on the arxiv identifier that specifies which version of the paper the identifier identifies. I propose to deprecate this parameter in {{cite arxiv}} so that it is included in |arxiv= (arxiv error checking already supports this).
  4. |use ampersand before last author= – really, it's there; same as |last-author-amp= so I propose to deprecate it.

Apparently, {{cite arxiv}} can be filled by bot if |title= and all of the |author= parameters are empty and if the citation contains |arxiv= or |eprint=. The bot that does this work isn't identified so if anyone knows which bot that is, and if it is still alive, please tell us so that we can add its name to the documentation.

When editors rely on the bot to fill the template, the template code invokes {{citation/core}} to render a link to the arxiv page with a message saying that a bot will soon fill the template. That won't work so nicely with the module which will emit a missing title error message. This code needs to be rewritten so that the appropriate message is rendered but the module isn't invoked.

I don't quite know yet what to do about the COinS metadata. Currently, this template:

Mashnik, Stepan G. (2000). "On Solar System and Cosmic Rays Nucleosynthesis and Spallation Processes". arXiv:astro-ph/0008382 [astro-ph]. 

produces this jibberish for rft.jtitle:


This may be a case where we just name the 'journal' arXiv and produce this:


For the |arxiv= identifier, the module produces this metatdata:


which it would also do for {{cite arxiv}} once it has migrated.


Trappist the monk (talk) 15:50, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

The bot that does this work isn't identified – perhaps not well identified, but in the first line under the Usage heading, "a bot" is a piped link to User:Citation bot - Evad37 [talk] 16:04, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
So it does, I've tweaked it.
Trappist the monk (talk) 16:27, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I've created {{cite arxiv/new}} which mimics the way the current {{cite arxiv}} works. The new version doesn't invoke Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox unless both |title= and |last= (or one of its aliases) are set. In contrast, {{cite arxiv}} always invokes {{citation/core}}. To mimic the old version, the new adds an external link to the output using the value provided in |arxiv= or |eprint=. The output for {{cite arxiv/new |arxiv = physics/0409058}} looks like this:

A bot will complete this citation soon. <small>[ Click here to jump the queue]</small>[[Category:Articles with missing Cite arXiv inputs |Citation Style 1]] [[arXiv]]:[// physics/0409058].

which renders as (category commented out):

A bot will complete this citation soon. Click here to jump the queue arXiv:physics/0409058.

Trappist the monk (talk) 18:41, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

(e/c) I agree with points 1 through 4 above. I have seen Citation Bot fill in one of these templates recently, so that piece of the system does work. {{Cite doi}} emits a similar message about the bot when you create a new template that contains only a DOI value, although the template is structured differently, with only a single unnamed parameter.
Emitting "arXiv" as the journal may not be appropriate, but I can't tell. Some arXiv articles contain a "journal reference", presumably to indicate that the article, or a version of it, was published in a peer-reviewed journal. Maybe we emit "arXiv" unless |journal= is filled in?
Trappist, thanks for taking on these migrations. I know you get a lot of static for it since you are the main programmer, but I think that the changes that have been made to the CS1 templates over the last two years have dramatically increased the consistency and accuracy of CS1 citations in hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of articles. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:50, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
If the arXiv article has a journal reference, we should be using {{cite journal}} (with |arxiv= filled in) not {{cite arxiv}} (which should only be for preprints that do not also have a more definitive published form). So I think using "arXiv" as the journal should be ok. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:52, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
I was just coming to that. {{cite arxiv}} has associated categories
Category:Articles with missing Cite arXiv inputs – I suspect that Citation bot uses the content of this category
Category:Articles with a journal parameter in their Cite arxiv templates – can go away and be replace with an error message? add to Category:CS1 errors: arXiv?
Category:Articles with a publisher parameter in their Cite arxiv templates – also goes away?
I think that if either of |journal= or |publisher= is set (or their alias), the module should set them to empty strings, and then emit an appropriate error message. There wouldn't be any periodical in the rendered citation, but the COinS would get &rft.jtitle=arXiv (this parameter usually holds the periodical name).
Trappist the monk (talk) 20:19, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps like this, and, perhaps, |url= should be added to the list of parameters not supported by the new {{cite arxiv}}:
Cite arXiv compare
{{ cite arXiv | last=Conte | date=2002 | first=Elio | journal=Proceedings Fundamental problems of Sciences, 271-304, S. Petersburg 2002 | arxiv=0711.2260 | title=A Quantum Like Interpretation and Solution of Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen Paradox in Quantum Mechanics | url= | class=quant-ph | pages=271-304 | accessdate=3 March 2014 }}
Live Conte, Elio (2002). "A Quantum Like Interpretation and Solution of Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen Paradox in Quantum Mechanics". arXiv:0711.2260 [quant-ph]. 
Sandbox Conte, Elio (2002). "A Quantum Like Interpretation and Solution of Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen Paradox in Quantum Mechanics". arXiv:0711.2260 [quant-ph].  Unsupported parameter(s) in cite arXiv (help)
Trappist the monk (talk) 21:57, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
In comparison to all of the other CS1/2 templates, {{cite arxiv}} is quite limited in what it supports. Along with the aforementioned |journal=, |publisher=, and |url=, there are |access-date=, |page=, |pages=, and |at=. It does support |format= but shouldn't; it supports all of the usual identifiers but probably shouldn't. I have to think about this some more.
Trappist the monk (talk) 00:00, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Ok, rather than have the error message list the unsupported parameter(s), I've opted to create a simpler error message. The list of unsupported parameters and an explanation will be available at the Help:CS1 errors. The test for unsupported parameters includes all of the special identifiers (ISBN, doi, etc) but doesn't set them to empty strings.
I've also added an error message for the case where |arxiv= is missing or empty:
Cite arXiv compare
{{ cite arXiv | last=Conte | title=A Quantum Like Interpretation and Solution of Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen Paradox in Quantum Mechanics | date=Nov 2007 | first=Elio }}
Live Conte, Elio (Nov 2007). "A Quantum Like Interpretation and Solution of Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen Paradox in Quantum Mechanics". MISSING LINK.. 
Sandbox Conte, Elio (Nov 2007). "A Quantum Like Interpretation and Solution of Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen Paradox in Quantum Mechanics".  |arxiv= required (help)
With that then, I think that this migration is done. See Template:Cite arxiv/testcases and add more if you see something that should be tested.
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:46, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I have notified Wikiproject Astronomy, Wikiproject Mathematics, and Wikiproject Physics about this discussion. Feedback from the actual users of this template will be helpful. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:05, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if this will just automatically work once {{cite arXiv}} gets migrated, so, just in case: |display-authors= isn't recognized currently, and the citation auto-truncates to 8 authors. Also, I support points 1-4.
- Concerning |journal= or |publisher= in {{cite arXiv}}, I agree with David Eppstein and Trappist - I think it would be better to produce an error message, or at least a maintenance category/message to convert a {{cite arXiv}} to {{cite journal}} (I've seen variants of |publisher=arXiv though..., which could be made to emit an error as well?). If {{cite arXiv}} were to accept |journal=, then it would make sense to duplicate most of the other {{cite journal}} parameters, but I don't think that's the right way to go. I think it'd make more sense to make {{cite journal}} a wrapper around {{cite arXiv}} (if I'm using the term properly), than the other way around. {{cite arXiv}} should be reserved for papers not yet published in a {{cite journal}}. A potential problem is that arXiv eprints are not always word-for-word copies of their published peer-reviewed counterparts, but the differences are generally minor.   ~ Tom.Reding (talkcontribsdgaf)  16:28, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Setting |displayauthors=4 seems to work in the new version; as an example I've added |publisher=Publisher (should show an error):
Cite arXiv compare
{{ cite arXiv | author8=Bertaux, J.-L. | author6=Pepe, F. | author9=Bouchy, F. | class=astro-ph.EP | author5=Ségransan, D. | author7=Benz, W. | author4=Udry, S. | eprint=1109.2497 | displayauthors=4 | author=Mayor, M. | date=2011 | author14=Santos, N. C. | author13=Queloz, D. | publisher=Publisher | title=The HARPS Search for Southern Extra-solar Planets XXXIV. Occurrence, Mass Distribution and Orbital Properties of Super-Earths and Neptune-mass Planets | author12=Mordasini, C. | author11=Lo Curto, G. | author2=Marmier, M. | author10=Dumusque, X. | author3=Lovis, C. }}
Live Mayor, M.; Marmier, M.; Lovis, C.; Udry, S.; Ségransan, D.; Pepe, F.; Benz, W.; Bertaux, J.-L. et al. (2011). "The HARPS Search for Southern Extra-solar Planets XXXIV. Occurrence, Mass Distribution and Orbital Properties of Super-Earths and Neptune-mass Planets". arXiv:1109.2497 [astro-ph.EP]. 
Sandbox Mayor, M.; Marmier, M.; Lovis, C.; Udry, S. et al. (2011). "The HARPS Search for Southern Extra-solar Planets XXXIV. Occurrence, Mass Distribution and Orbital Properties of Super-Earths and Neptune-mass Planets". arXiv:1109.2497 [astro-ph.EP].  Unsupported parameter(s) in cite arXiv (help)
To convert {{cite arxiv}} to {{cite journal}} (once the paper has been published) is a simple matter of changing the template name and adding or deleting the relevant details – as you say, the preprint may not accurately reflect the final published paper.
Trappist the monk (talk) 16:50, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

multiple language support[edit]

One of the biggest contributors to Category:CS1 maint: Unrecognized language is multiple languages in the |language= parameter. I have tweaked Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox so that |language= now accepts a comma-delimited list of language names – either as ISO639-1 code or spelled-out (or a mix of both) – and renders a properly formatted language list:

Cite book compare
{{ cite book | language=nb, french , de,lt | title=Title }}
Live Title (in nb, french , de,lt). 
Sandbox Title (in Norwegian Bokmål, French, German, and Lithuanian). 

Names or codes that aren't recognized are rendered as presented:

Cite book compare
{{ cite book | language=nb, Basilisk, de,lt, xt | title=Title }}
Live Title (in nb, Basilisk, de,lt, xt). 
Sandbox Title (in Norwegian Bokmål, Basilisk, German, Lithuanian, and xt). 

Trappist the monk (talk) 18:34, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

This is a great idea. Based on poking through this category, I would like to see an option for an "and" between the last two languages accepted as valid. That would make the following examples valid:
  • |language=German, French
  • |language=German and French
  • |language=German, Swedish, French
  • |language=German, Swedish, and French
  • |language=German, Swedish and French
But this would not be valid, since it is not valid grammar:
  • |language=German, and French
I think it reads much better to use "and" after the introductory "In" before the language names, and based on what I see in the maint category, I believe that other editors feel the same way. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:52, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Ok, but ... Formatting of the rendered citation is the responsibility of the template. So, the rule for inside the raw template is: comma separate the languages and the module will add appropriate punctuation and interstitial words:
Title (in German). 
Title (in German and French). 
Title (in German, Swedish, and French). 
Title (in German, Swedish, French, and Spanish). 
Trappist the monk (talk) 20:58, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
That seems reasonable to me, though it might be interesting to track the usage of "and". --Izno (talk) 21:53, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I can live with that and will be happy to document it in the shared template documentation. Once the code is live, a bot or AWB script can be used on the existing 6,200 articles in the main category to remove the existing instances of "and" and replace them with commas. I hope Trappist or GoingBatty or another AWB expert will be willing to do that. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:23, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Good change. Howevever, since the template doesn't recognize "xt" in the second example, shouldn't the template still cause the page to be added to Category:CS1 maint: Unrecognized language/emit the error? --Izno (talk) 21:53, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
The module doesn't categorize pages from the Help namespace. When this example:
{{cite book |title=Title |language=nb, Basilisk, de,lt, xt}}
is placed in a mainspace page you get this additional hidden output:
<span class="citation-comment" style="display:none; color:#33aa33">CS1 maint: Unrecognized language ([[:Category:CS1 maint: Unrecognized language|link]])</span>[[Category:CS1 maint: Unrecognized language]][[Category:CS1 Norwegian Bokmål-language sources (nb)]][[Category:CS1 German-language sources (de)]][[Category:CS1 Lithuanian-language sources (lt)]]
Trappist the monk (talk) 22:09, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Ah, the error just isn't turned on. --Izno (talk) 22:14, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
The maintenance messages are controlled by the same mechanism that turns on all error messages. See Help:CS1 errors#Controlling error message display; which I need to update because that's the only way to see them.
Trappist the monk (talk) 22:37, 31 March 2015 (UTC)