Help talk:Citation Style 1

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Transcript parameter for cite podcast[edit]

Can a parameter for linking to a transcript be added to Template:Cite podcast?-- Brainy J ~~ (talk) 16:01, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

We already have |transcript-url= in the CS1 module, but it appears that it is not currently used in any citations that use the CS1 module for rendering (I could be wrong). It is used in {{cite serial}} and {{cite episode}}, but those still use the old citation/core code. Adding it to cite podcast should be straightforward but would take some new code. Let's see if it works already:
Cite podcast compare
{{ cite podcast | host=Jack Handey | title=Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123 | transcript=Episode 123 transcript | transcript-url=http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123/transcript | url=http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123 }}
Old Jack Handey. "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123" (Podcast). http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123.
Live Jack Handey. "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123" (Podcast). 
Sandbox Jack Handey. "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123" (Podcast). 
No, it looks like it doesn't work yet. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:41, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
  1. What is the purpose of local TranscriptAssemble?
  2. Shouldn't we first find out why terminal punctuation isn't present before hard coding the terminal period in the way that you have done it here?
  3. Do you have test cases that show that your changes do no harm when |transcript-url= is missing or empty?
Trappist the monk (talk) 23:24, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I've tried again; I've corrected the needed modifications and included testcases below. The test citation template is {{cite podcast/sandbox2}}, which invokes the modified Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox4, which calls the modified Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox3. The only change in the configuration module not documented below is that Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox4 calls Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox3 under function z.citation(frame) rather than Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox. (I was loathe to edit existing sandboxes for fear of disrupting other testcases; I don't know what standard practice is with regard to the sandboxes.)

Two parts of Module:Citation/CS1 need to be modified:

Line numbers 1817–1821

Currently:

   if is_set(Transcript) then
       if is_set(TranscriptURL) then Transcript = externallink( TranscriptURL, Transcript ); end 
   elseif is_set(TranscriptURL) then 
       Transcript = externallink( TranscriptURL, nil, TranscriptURLorigin ); 
   end

Proposed modification: (I added some additional line breaks to make the code more readable.)

   if is_set(Transcript) then 
       if is_set(TranscriptURL) then 
           Transcript = sepc .. " " .. externallink( TranscriptURL, Transcript ); 
       else 
           Transcript = sepc .. " " .. seterror('transcript_missing_url'); 
       end 
   elseif is_set(TranscriptURL) then
       Transcript = sepc .. " " .. seterror('transcripturl_missing_transcript'); 
   else 
       Transcript = ""; 
   end
Line number 1906

Currently:

   local idcommon = safejoin( { ID_list, URL, Archived, AccessDate, Via, SubscriptionRequired, Lay, Quote }, sepc ); 

Proposed modification:

   local idcommon = safejoin( { ID_list, URL, Archived, AccessDate, Via, Lay, Transcript, Quote, SubscriptionRequired }, sepc ); 

Additionally, Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration will need two new error messages in the citation_config.error_conditions section. I don't know what determines whether an error message is hidden or not; I would think these should always show, but I could be mistaken. Note that the category called by the errors doesn't currently exist; if it shouldn't be created, please comment out the category name. (I personally see no harm in having a new error category; it is not likely to ever have very many pages in it, but would be useful in tracking this particular error.) Please let me know if I need to create the category.

Proposed insertion after line 364
   transcript_missing_url = { 
        message = '<code>&#124;transcript=</code> requires <code>&#124;transcript-url=</code>', 
anchor = 'transcript_missing_url',
category = 'Pages with transcripturl citation errors',
hidden = false },
   transcripturl_missing_transcript = { 
        message = '<code>&#124;transcript-url=</code> requires <code>&#124;transcript=</code>', 
anchor = 'transcripturl_missing_transcript',
category = 'Pages with transcripturl citation errors',
hidden = false },

To answer the questions above:

  1. I don't know the purpose of local TranscriptAssemble; it was present in the sandbox I edited; it is no longer part of the proposed modifications.
  2. The terminal punctuation was a flaw in the sandbox I was using. "Clean" sandboxes, with the changes above, eliminate this error.
  3. Here are the testcases:
    1. Includes both |transcript-url= and |transcript= with data in both:
      {{cite podcast/sandbox2 |title=Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123 |host=Jack Handey |url=http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123 |transcript-url=http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123/transcript |transcript=Episode 123 transcript}}
      Jack Handey. "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123" (Podcast). Episode 123 transcript. 
    2. Omits both |transcript-url= and |transcript=:
      {{cite podcast/sandbox2 |title=Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123 |host=Jack Handey |url=http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123}}
      Jack Handey. "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123" (Podcast). 
    3. Both |transcript-url= and |transcript= are present but empty:
      {{cite podcast/sandbox2 |title=Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123 |host=Jack Handey |url=http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123 |transcript-url= |transcript=}}
      Jack Handey. "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123" (Podcast). 
    4. Only |transcript= is present, but empty:
      {{cite podcast/sandbox2 |title=Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123 |host=Jack Handey |url=http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123 |transcript=}}
      Jack Handey. "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123" (Podcast). 
    5. Only |transcript-url= is present, but empty:
      {{cite podcast/sandbox2 |title=Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123 |host=Jack Handey |url=http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123 |transcript-url=}}
      Jack Handey. "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123" (Podcast). 
    6. Both parameters are present; however, only |transcript= is populated; |transcript-url= is empty. This now emits an error message:
      {{cite podcast/sandbox2 |title=Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123 |host=Jack Handey |url=http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123 |transcript-url= |transcript=Episode 123 transcript}}
      Jack Handey. "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123" (Podcast). |transcript= requires |transcript-url= (help). 
    7. Only |transcript= is present and populated; |transcript-url= is not present. This now emits an error message:
      {{cite podcast/sandbox2 |title=Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123 |host=Jack Handey |url=http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123 |transcript=Episode 123 transcript}}
      Jack Handey. "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123" (Podcast). |transcript= requires |transcript-url= (help). 
    8. Both parameters are present; however, only |transcript-url= is populated; |transcript= is empty. This now emits an error message:
      {{cite podcast/sandbox2 |title=Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123 |host=Jack Handey |url=http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123 |transcript-url=http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123/transcript |transcript=}}
      Jack Handey. "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123" (Podcast). |transcript-url= requires |transcript= (help). 
    9. Only |transcript-url= is present and populated; |transcript= is not present. This now emits an error message:
      {{cite podcast/sandbox2 |title=Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123 |host=Jack Handey |url=http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123 |transcript-url=http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123/transcript}}
      Jack Handey. "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123" (Podcast). |transcript-url= requires |transcript= (help). 

I'm not adept at coding in Lua; I had hoped that someone with more knowledge would springboard off what I had discovered and make any further changes needed to comply with the rest of the template coding. I was trying to help move the process along; I hope this is enough to get the changes made with any additional modifications known to be needed by someone who's adept at this! I'm learning as I go; hopefully, I'll keep getting better at it. (I have experience in other coding languages; Lua/Scribunto is not among them; I've bookmarked the relevant reference manual.) Thanks!—D'Ranged 1 VTalk 11:33, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I've been wondering if idcommon is the correct location of the transcript text. It seems reasonable to assume that the podcast could be archived, could require a subscription (which might make the use of |quote= desirable) would then make this:
Jack Handey. "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123" (Podcast). Archived from the original on 2014-07-02. Episode 123 transcript. "Quoted text.". (subscription required (help)) 
{{cite episode}} places the transcript after |series= by using {{citation/core}} parameter |Other= (|others=). Perhaps something similar should be considered for {{cite podcast}}. Here I've used |others=[http://www.deepthoughts.org/podcast/123/transcript Episode 123 transcript] to mimic the positioning used by {{cite episode}}:
Jack Handey. "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123" (Podcast). Episode 123 transcript. Archived from the original on 2014-07-02. "Quoted text.". (subscription required (help)) 
As an aside, I'm thinking that the position of the subscription note should be moved so that it is the last thing rendered in the citation.
Trappist the monk (talk) 14:10, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree with moving subscription to the end; I've done so and your example above parses better. Below is an example testing the use of |registration= rather than |subscription= to ensure that it also falls at the end of the citation:
Jack Handey. "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handey, episode 123" (Podcast). Episode 123 transcript. Archived from the original on 2014-07-02. "Quoted text.". (registration required (help)) 
As for the placement used by {{cite episode}}; I dislike that the archive information appears after the transcript; it's less clear what is archived, the podcast, or the transcript?
It occurs to me that the transcript might be archived or require a subscription as well; do we want to go there?—D'Ranged 1 VTalk 16:37, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
Trappist the monk Will the changes above be implemented soon?—D'Ranged 1 VTalk 13:34, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps; just now beginning to return from Wikibreak. Is there really a need for the |transcript= requires |transcript-url= error message?
Trappist the monk (talk) 14:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't care about the error messages one way or the other; I would like to see the corrections included in the forthcoming update to the code since the original request for this fix was two months ago. What are your obejctions?—D'Ranged 1 VTalk 19:57, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

sfn and page internal links[edit]

This comes from Elmo Hope, best seen in an earlier version [1]... Using {{sfn}} if the author field is blank (e.g., citation 2), then it is the newspaper name that pops up when the numbered citation is hovered over, but clicking on that name has no effect (it should jump to and highlight the relevant work in Bibliography). There is a similar problem with citation 4, I assume because the publication date is "2002" in the sfn but "2012 [2002]" in the Bibliography. {{rp}} has been used as a way around this, but that has introduced a second referencing system and removed the functionality of {{sfn}}. Is there a solution to these two problems, using {{sfn}} or another system? EddieHugh (talk) 12:47, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

For citation 2, add |ref={{sfnref|New York Amsterdam News|1940}} to the citation under §Bibliography.
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:07, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
|year=2012 [2002] is not valid syntax in the complicated world of the citation templates. I changed it to |year=2012 |origyear=2002, which works fine. I also changed the year in the {{sfn}} references to 2012; since the bibliography lists only the 2012 version, that's what needs to be cited. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:31, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Wonderful! Thanks both. I'll wait for a reply from the editor who changed to {{rp}}, as it was as part of a DYK nomination, but I expect that that change will be made too, as it's a much better solution. EddieHugh (talk) 15:13, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
@EddieHugh: You should never need to use {{rp}} when {{sfn}} is used: that's one of the primary purposes of {{sfn}}. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:56, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. I've now changed it back to sfn using the script above. I didn't want to use rp, but finding the solution(s) (without asking on a page such as this) proved difficult. EddieHugh (talk) 18:43, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Add support for transcript, audio, video and slides for template:cite conference[edit]

I propose to add parameters |transcript=, |audio=, |video= and |slides= to template:cite conference, so that readers could verify citation in a format according to their preference. I am planning to implement this in sandbox of corresponding module, but I wanted to gather some feedback on this idea before I spend too much time on implementing it. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talktrack) 01:26, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Please give some examples of these parameters in use and how they would look. --  Gadget850 talk 01:46, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Wikilinked title should be accepted as a valid URL[edit]

The Cite web documentation states:

  • title: Title of source page on website; can be wikilinked to an existing Wikipedia article or url may be used to add an external link, but not both.
  • url: URL of an online location where the text of the publication can be found. Cannot be used if title is wikilinked.

Thus, url should not be required, if title is wikilinked. However, this is not reflected in the TemplateData which shows both of these parameters as required, always. If you try to use a wikilinked title without a URL, you get errors: Missing or empty |url= (help); |accessdate= requires |url= (help)
I think it should be possible to use a wikilinked title without a URL; if you use URL for an internal link, it will be followed by an external link icon. Wdchk (talk) 16:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Can you, please, specify a use case? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talktrack) 16:33, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
{{cite web}} requires a URL, since you are citing a web page. Therefore, the title cannot be wikilinked in a {{cite web}} citation. I have corrected the documentation. Thanks for notifying us about this inconsistency. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:42, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
A typical use case might be where a project page cites another project page, such as a policy or ArbCom decision. For example, WP:BAN, Note 3 – this does not use {{Cite web}} but it could do, for consistency of formatting, just like any other citation. Agreed that an article citing an external web cite is different and is going to need a URL, but surely when the documentation said that a wikilinked title was sufficient, this was an established consensus? I'm not claiming this to be a use case that I personally just identified – I figured it must have come up in the past for the doc to be written that way. Wdchk (talk) 18:57, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
No, just a documentation error on my part. As noted in the {{cite web}} documentation, it is for web sources that are not characterized by another CS1 template. --  Gadget850 talk 20:15, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
You really should not cite by wikilink – use plainlinks to oldids instead. Contents of pages may change, pages may be moved or deleted, etc. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talktrack) 22:54, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Other cases where a wikilink theoretically can be used includes a convenience link to a copy of a document on Wikisource or Commons; even in those cases I'd link using the appropriate URL. Imzadi 1979  22:59, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
@Gadget850: Fair enough then, if the intent is that {{Cite web}} should be used for external web citations only, I'm fine with that.
@Czarkoff: I agree there will be circumstances where an oldid is preferable. Not so sure in the case of a policy or guideline, though, whether it would be appropriate to cite an old version. Maybe better to cite the latest one: if it changes and no longer supports the statement followed by the citation, it might actually be a good thing for somebody to be able to notice that and fix it. However, I'm not planning to get too excited about the infrequent use cases at this point! One further thought, though: after looking at the other variants of CS1 templates, {{Cite encyclopedia}} seems to be an option if one really wants to use a template for an internal citation, with a wikilinked title or contribution.
@Imzadi1979: Yes, and I've also seen an example linking to Meta. It occurred to me that there might be differing opinions on whether other Wikimedia wikis are "external" or not, i.e. whether or not they should be followed by an external link icon, i.e. whether or not they should be treated as a URL or a plainlink/wikilink.
Thanks, all. Wdchk (talk) 05:03, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Idea for adding a field called (e.g.) "archiveurl-added-date"[edit]

Sorry if I have come to the wrong place to ask a question, /slash add a "comment" (to suggest an idea). Any help / advice would be welcome, in that case.

Background[edit]

While reading the article Von Neumann architecture, I noticed that the first footnote (footnote number [1]) was a "dead link" ("See also" [dead link].) I was able to find an "archived" copy of the dearly departed "deceased" web page (which was previously at the URL http://qss.stanford.edu/~godfrey/vonNeumann/vnedvac.pdf ). The "archived" copy was found at https://web.archive.org/web/20130314123032/http://qss.stanford.edu/~godfrey/vonNeumann/vnedvac.pdf .

Then, while I was updating the "<ref>...</ref>" tag, for footnote number "[1]", to add some fields such as "archiveurl" and "archivedate" (and "deadurl = yes"), I tried adding a field called "archiveurl_added_date"; but that did not work. (I got some error messages...)! I later decided that maybe "archiveurl-added-date" would be better (minus sign "-" characters, instead of underscore "_" characters), but way before that, I started snooping around, and somehow found my way to Help:Citation_Style_1 ... and I saw that it has an "Elements_not_included" section.

"Great!" [I thought]. I started to an an item to the list there. The existing list says:

  • The total number of pages in a cited source
  • The name of the library that provided access to an electronic copy of a cited source
  • The name of the library that owns a physical copy of a cited work
  • The library record and/or shelf location of a physical copy of a cited work

and I was about to edit that list, there, and add a new item, saying something like:

  • [as of July 28, 2014] The "archiveurl_added_date" -- that is, the date when "| deadurl = yes" and "archiveurl = [...]" and "archivedate = [...]" fields were added to remedy a "[dead link]" situation. This can happen -- [that is, the "archiveurl_added_date" can be (of necessity) different from the "archivedate" field value] -- in a situation where a new "archive" copy (e.g. using webcite) [of an on-line source] cannot be created, with the "archiveurl_added_date" the same as the "archivedate", due to a "[dead link]" situation. ...and since a "[dead link]" situation is a very popular time to add "| deadurl = yes" and "archiveurl = [...]" and "archivedate = [...]" fields, this situation could well arise.

...but I quickly realized that (a) it was getting too long; and (b) it was starting to contain some material that is more appropriate for a "Talk:" page, than for a NON-"Talk:" page. (Is there a correct name for a NON-"Talk:" page? Maybe in this case, it is just [called] a "Help:" page? Sorry...).

So, I tentatively decided to add this question, /slash "comment" (to suggest an idea) here on this "Talk:" page.

But meanwhile, I went back, and modified my revisions to footnote number "[1]" of the article about Von Neumann architecture. The details of my "edit" can be seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Von_Neumann_architecture&diff=618928560&oldid=616552075 .

Why I thought a new field would be a good idea[edit]

As you can see from my edit, the newly updated "<ref>...</ref>" tag, has an "| archivedate = March 14, 2013" -- because that is the creation date, of the "archived" copy of the "deceased" web page (which was previously at the URL http://qss.stanford.edu/~godfrey/vonNeumann/vnedvac.pdf ).

I did not change the "| accessdate = August 24, 2011", because I thought I was supposed to leave that, as the last known date when the URL shown in the "url" field was used (and worked OK).

Is that my mistake? Should I maybe have changed "| accessdate = [...]", to reflect the date when the "archiveurl" field was added? I could be wrong, but I didn't think so.

Or MAYBE ... no one cares about the date when the "archiveurl" field was added? If so, then kindly disregard this entire comment [section]!

Or MAYBE ... the "temporary" solution I used, should just be used permanently? (That is, the "solution" of documenting the date when the "archiveurl" field was added, but just doing so outside of the "{{citation}}" tag). (See the LINK to the edit I made [also shown above].) If so, then Case Closed. However, I would be surprised.

Any comments would be welcomed. --Mike Schwartz (talk) 07:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

It's unnecessary. If people really need to find out when an |archiveurl= was added, there is always the page history. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:52, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the LONG explanation, but your instinct was correct when you guessed that no one cares (while reading the article) when the archiveurl field was added to the article, just as we don't have |citation-added= or |title-added= or |url-added=. The article history suffices if people are sufficiently interested in determining when a specific piece of text was added to an article or its references.
The purpose of a citation is to help a reader locate a source so that they can verify that the source supports a statement in an article. Knowing when an archiveurl was added to a citation does not help a reader do so. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:31, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
FWIW I normally strip |accessdate= for citations I "wikt:resurrect" by |archiveurl= and |archivedate=, as these two already provide enough information about the measures of link rot prevention. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talktrack) 00:00, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Please don't do that unless you personally verify that the source says what we're citing it as saying. It's not a safe assumption that a page read and cited in 2005 said then what is says when it was archived in 2013 before disappearing. It may have been edited many times between 2005 and 2013, and if the 2013 version does not have the material that it did in 2005, it may in fact be a dead citation to a source that can never be used for verification and thus which has to be replaced in due course.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  12:29, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Use of "via" parameter[edit]

I see that in a recent use I made of the "via" parameter in {{Cite news}} that there is no exposed information when the template is rendered; see the diff leading to this version of the 2014 West Africa Ebola outbreak article. This is contrary to documentation and I'm wondering if the parameter is broken or it is excluded from display due to the presence of another parameter. Thanks. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 09:19, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually, you didn't use it as a parameter, just as text in the |publisher= field. I changed it to |via= and it displays properly now.—D'Ranged 1 VTalk 15:08, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Template for primary source document[edit]

The article John Roselli states that Roselli testified before the Church Committee on June 24, 1975, however, the statement is unsourced. I am interested in using a primary source document, [2], as a citation for that material. The document is essentially a transcript typed up by the shorthand reporting company Ward & Paul and I imagine it was obtained via the FOIA. I am unsure as to which citation template to use, and I don't know what to put as |publisher= or if I need to use |archiveurl= and |archivedate=. Any help on this would be appreciated. Thanks! Location (talk) 17:47, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I would use {{cite web}} as follows:
<ref>{{cite web |title=Report of Proceedings; Hearing held before Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities; Testimony of Mr. John Roselli |url=https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1446&relPageId=3 |website=Mary Ferrell Foundation |publisher=United States Senate |accessdate=August 6, 2014 |date=June 24, 1975}}</ref>
Which displays as:
"Report of Proceedings; Hearing held before Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities; Testimony of Mr. John Roselli". Mary Ferrell Foundation. United States Senate. June 24, 1975. Retrieved August 6, 2014. 
If you want to cite a particular page at that site, just include the page number of the document; I would recommend using the url for the first page, however, as above. Hope this helps!—D'Ranged 1 VTalk 21:01, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks again! Location (talk) 21:58, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
@Location, D'Ranged 1: I wouldn't put "Marry Ferrell Foundation" in the |website= parameter because it's the name of a website published by the U.S. Senate. Rather, I would put it in the |via= parameter to indicate that it's it the entity republishing the report. Actually, the Senate committee should be listed as the author of the report, and the actual publisher (Ward & Paul in Washington, DC) should be listed, and {{cite report}} would be a better option (although it currently doesn't support |via= ). That would give something like:
or
Imzadi 1979  22:24, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't know that "Ward & Paul" ought to be mentioned. Normally the Senate has its own stenographers (either in the room, or working from a tape recording), and the details of that and who transcribed it, etc., are internal to the publisher (i.e., the Senate). That wouldn't change if the publisher contracted out part of the work. On the other hand, if a non-official party takes notes and transcribes them, it is a different publication and publisher. Seems to me more information is needed to properly document this source. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:03, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback. I am a bit confused as to the author/publisher relationship for primary source documents like this. It appears as though the Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities is both the author and publisher, and Mary Ferrell foundation is the republisher. How would this relationship be affected if a notable person typed up a letter, printed it, and the recipient placed it on line? Who is the publisher in that instance? Location (talk) 23:51, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
  The author is generally the person who makes the remarks, who is responsible for them. E.g., Mr. Roselli is "author" of his remarks, Sen. Church of his, etc. And where a report is written by committee, that committee would be the author. However, if (say) a reporter quotes Mr. Roselli and Sen. Church in article that you read, then you would cite the reporter as author of the article, wherein the others are quoted. This gets trickier where a committee publishes a transcript of a hearing, which is essentially just a mass of quotation. But as everyone's remarks are all part of a whole, which is under the auspices of the committee, which arranges the transcription and recording, I think it is reasonable to deem the committee to be the responsible "author" of this record. Though I wonder if "editor" might be more appropriate. The publisher, who arranges to make the work publicly available, would be (in this case) the U.S. Senate, or the U.S. Government Printing Office.
  In your example, the "notable person" is the author of his/her remarks, and the party placing it on-line would be the publisher. But publishing usually implies some editorial responsibility (e.g., the publisher is reputable, vouches for the item's authenticity and provenance, etc.), whereas an unknown person's pasting of something onto the wall of the Web is more akin to blogging, and may raise WP:RS issues. This leads into why we are generally enjoined to avoid using primary sources; in a secondary source the information is presumed to have passed another level of evaluation. I hope that helps, and that I haven't stirred up too much mud. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:29, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────The primary purpose of citations is to direct the reader to the source of the information. Since the source is at the Mary Ferrell Foundation website, that information needs to be included; however, it works to put it in the |via= parameter:

<ref>{{cite web |title=Report of Proceedings; Hearing held before Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities; Testimony of Mr. John Roselli |url=https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1446&relPageId=3 |via=Mary Ferrell Foundation |publisher=United States Senate |accessdate=August 6, 2014 |date=June 24, 1975}}</ref>

Which displays as:

"Report of Proceedings; Hearing held before Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities; Testimony of Mr. John Roselli". United States Senate. June 24, 1975. Retrieved August 6, 2014 – via Mary Ferrell Foundation. 

To me, it is less clear that the source is a website in either example I have given; you might want to use "www.maryferrell.org" instead of the name of the foundation. While the report is being cited, the source is the website, not the report, so the {{cite web}} is the correct template. If whoever cited the report did so from a hard copy of it, then you would use {{cite report}}. (I make this same distinction between {{cite web}} and {{cite news}}; I only use the latter if I'm citing from an actual physical copy of an article. If I'm citing something I found on the internet, I use {{cite web}}. Other editors use them interchangeably when citing newspaper articles.) Arguably, you could list the committee name as the author, but the citation as above is sufficient to direct the reader to the source. The publisher is the U.S. Senate, regardless of who transcribed the proceedings—they would have had to release the tape recording from which the transcription was made. While I agree with the comments about primary sources; it would seem in this instance that the source is an actual photocopy or microfiche of the transcription that has been approved for release by the CIA; I wouldn't think that it would fail a reliable sources test.—D'Ranged 1 VTalk 21:55, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry to be so dense about this. Why would Mary Ferrell Foundation or www.maryferrell.org not be the publisher if "publisher" is defined as the entity who disseminates the information or arranges to make the material publicly available? Is it because it was the US Senate/USGPO that ultimately made it available via FOIA request or other records release? RE {{cite web}} and {{cite news}}: Approximately 95% of the material I use is that which I have found via the internet, and I will admit that I use {{cite news}} for everything I find via the GNews archives. I thought this was acceptable, particularly since it includes |url= which it not applicable to a hard copy that I might possess. Thanks to all for the feedback! Location (talk) 01:57, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
This is a case where the MLA citation style "gets it right", I think. Let's say I'm going to cite a journal article reprinted in a college textbook. In the MLA style, I would cite the original source followed by "Rpt. in" and the full citation information about the reprinted copy. For example:
  • Spann, M. Graham. "NASCAR Racing Fans: Cranking Up an Empirical Approach." Journal of Popular Culture. 36.2 (Fall 2002)L 353–360. Rpt. in Profiles of Popular Culture: A Reader. Ed. Ray B. Brown. Madison: U of Wisconsin Popular P, 2005. 38–45. Print.
This sort of approach satisfies WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT by, well, saying where you got the source, by crediting the book that republished the article, while also properly crediting the original source, which is an article in a scholarly journal. (Any specific pages I'd cite would be based on the pagination used in the book copy, but if a reader could only find the original journal article, he/she could still verify the information with some effort.)
In your case, you're citing a committee transcript reprinted/republished online by a third party. In our CS1 style, the republisher is mentioned through our |via= parameter. This is useful for saying you got the copy of the source through Google Books, Google News, Highbeam Research, etc. and not the original publisher. The U.S. Senate, or the specific publishing company/office, is the original publisher, and they made the original document publicly available. Mary Ferrell Foundation is just mechanically republishing it online. We would never say that a "Microfilm Archival Corporation" is the publisher of an article from The New York Times that I consulted in the library on microfilm, but if for some reason we should credit them, they'd go in the |via= parameter. (The terms of the collaborations with various news archive sources say that we're supposed to credit them.)
@D'Ranged 1: you're improperly making a distinction the documentation doesn't tell us to make. All of the various CS1 templates will support |url= and related parameters for online copies. {{Cite web}} is really for any type of online source where there isn't a more specific template. An online map is still a map, and {{cite web}} does not support the parameters to indicate the cartographer, the scale, etc, which are still items that should be cited for any map, even if you consulted a copy of the map online. How do you properly indicate the wire agency behind a newspaper article in {{cite web}} when |agency= is only found in {{cite news}}? How do you indicate the volume/issue/page for a journal article mechanically reproduced online when {{cite web}} lacks those parameters? Imzadi 1979  02:49, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
I use {{cite web}} for information that doesn't have a specific template; not for everything. In the case of a journal published/accessed online, I use {{cite journal}}, etc. I'm a stickler, however, to using {{cite web}} instead of {{cite news}} for an article from an online version of a printed newspaper, however, regardless of the inclusion of |url= in {{cite news}}. I reserve use of {{cite news}} for printed works. You'll find, also, that the documentation for the Citation Style 1 templates is woefully inadequate and sometimes inaccurate—using |agency= with {{cite web}} works perfectly well:
{{cite web |title=World Gold |date=December 31, 1980 |accessdate=August 8, 2014 |website=nytimes.com |url=http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9D01E1DF133EE532A25752C3A9649D94619FD6CF |agency=The Associated Press}}
"World Gold". nytimes.com. The Associated Press. December 31, 1980. Retrieved August 8, 2014. 
If I were citing a paper copy of the newspaper, it would be different:
{{cite news |title=World Gold |date=December 31, 1980 |publisher=The New York Times |page=72 |agency=The Associated Press}}
"World Gold". The New York Times. The Associated Press. December 31, 1980. p. 72. 
I specifically stated that other editors use the two templates interchangeably; I have no objection to this, but prefer to make the distinction. I think if I were King of the Forest there might be far fewer templates with more parameters available to them. The templates would be based on what the medium being cited was—print, film, web, etc. I realize that specialized templates serve to remind editors of what information they should include in a citation, but there are drawbacks there, too. It's an imperfect world.—D'Ranged 1 VTalk 05:07, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
|publisher=The New York Times is incorrect. It may be |work=The New York Times or |newspaper=The New York Times as you see fit; but according to Contacts and Services - The New York Times, the publisher is Arthur Sulzberger Jr. --Redrose64 (talk) 11:54, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Redrose64 is correct: the name of a newspaper is never "publisher". One important reason for this is that the names of newspapers go in italics. But in addition to that, I think D'Ranged1 is wrong to make a distinction between the web version and the paper version. When citing the online version we should still use |newspaper=The New York Times, in my view. -- Alarics (talk) 16:09, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
  • As noted in the {{cite news}} documentation, the template is "used to create citations for news articles in print, video, audio or web."
  • {{Cite web}} does document |agency=.
  • {{Cite web}} does document |page= and other in-source location parameters.
--  Gadget850 talk 18:46, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
The publisher (title) of The New York Times is indeed Arthur Sulzberger, but the publisher (company) is The New York Times Company. For citation purposes, the publisher (title) is not used; rather iff a publisher is noted, it's the company. This compares to the publisher of books, which is the company, or its imprint, listed on the title page. Imzadi 1979  02:15, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Proposing minor changes to the "Cite" box[edit]

I was pointed here from the Help Desk. I've started using the "Cite" form in the GUI editor more and more, in lieu of manually typing {{cite web|blablabla}}. I understand that clicking "Show/Hide Extra Fields" will show probably more fields than most people would use anyway, but there are still some fields that I wish it included. One is subscription=yes/no. I also wish that the format field in the GUI was a dropdown instead of free text, which included some of the most popular formats, such as PDF, DOC or XLS. First, is this the place I should be discussing this? If so, what is the process for making a request and discussing and then making the change?

That function is Wikipedia:RefToolbar. --  Gadget850 talk 18:50, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Restore error message style[edit]

This change to the css styling for the <code>...</code> tag has, in my opinion, buggered up the error messages emitted by Module:Citation/CS1. The new css is at skins/common/commonElements.css.

Before the change, CS1 error messages had this look:

|accessdate= requires |url=

After the change, the same error message looks like this:

|accessdate= requires |url=

With a small modification to override the text color (<code style="color: #cc0000;">...</code>), we could get this:

|accessdate= requires |url=

I think that we should return to the previous styling. There is no need to draw little boxes around the parameters displayed in error messages. To do that, I will replace <code>...</code> in error messages with <kbd>...</kbd> which seems to be the most appropriate tag; see The kbd Element.

Trappist the monk (talk) 14:07, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Good. I've also proposed the change at {{para}} which is oft used here.
Trappist the monk (talk) 15:58, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Support. I think the old styling was clear and uncluttered, while the new styling is too cluttered. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:26, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Or use <code style="color:inherit; border:inherit; padding:inherit;"> as recommended at VPT, to preserve the semantic meaning. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:36, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
This is wrong; we don't abandon use of the correct markup to get around a style issue; just fix it with CSS. <kbd>...</kbd> is for examples of user input (i.e. the values of parameters), not the parameter= code! It's semantically incorrect to use kbd this way. Use Jonesey95's CSS fix, above.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  11:45, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
It's debatable. <code> is appropriate in that the parameter names and values are a kind of source code. But the problem was probably created by an editor typing incorrect or incomplete information on a keyboard, and will need to be corrected by an editor typing the appropriate information on a keyboard. By the way, where are these tags documented anyway? Jc3s5h (talk) 11:54, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
<kbd>...</kbd> is documented at w3c.
Trappist the monk (talk) 12:02, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
@SMcCandlish: Not Jonesey95's CSS fix - mine. See Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 129#Displaying 'code' font text and search for "inherit".
@Jc3s5h: The HTML 5 documentation begins here and the various HTML elements concerning semantics are described in section 4.5 Text-level semantics. This includes: 4.5.12 The code element; 4.5.13 The var element 4.5.14 The samp element 4.5.15 The kbd element. If you examine the source for that page, you'll see just how often the <code>...</code> element is used. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:12, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
@Redrose64: Okay; I'm just going by what I see, above, where it was posted by Jonesey95.
@Jc3s5h: It's not "kind of" source code, it is source code, just at a different level than that code in the "Template:..." page itself. By way of analogy, Javascript is source code, but it's not the same source as that of JS interpreter written in Java built into a Java-based browser. The element is for marking up literal keyboard input that is not source code. Even wikitext markup like This is italic, while this is bold is source code (we call it wikisource and source-view editing for a reason), and definitely not within the intended uses of <kbd>...</kbd>, except in quite peculiar circumstances. E.g., perhaps if I were explaining on Simple Wikipedia, "How to make text italic: First type '' (two single-quote characters in a row)), then the word or words you want to make italic, then finish by typing '' again". Even then purists would say to use <code>...</code> because the input in question is the input of source code, and kbd does not mark up source code.
Anyway, the real question before us is whether to override the changes to <code>...</code> at all in this particular case. I'm in favor of doing so, because the boogering of this template's error message output is an unintended consequence of CSS changes to the element.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  19:02, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

In Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox I have overridden the default commonElements.css definition for <code>...</code> to <code style="color:inherit; border:inherit; padding:inherit;">...</code>.

Cite book compare
{{ cite book | accessdate=21 August 2014 | title=Title }}
Live Title. 
Sandbox Title. 

Trappist the monk (talk) 13:37, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Error in templatedata for Cite news template[edit]

In the templatedata for {{Cite news}}, the phrase "forth author", which occurs in three parameters, should be "fourth author". -- John Broughton (♫♫) 03:50, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Now fixed. Actually, though, you could have fixed this yourself - the TemplateData is at Template:Cite web/doc, and is unprotected. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 04:13, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Indroducing "print year" in addition to "year"[edit]

(noticing that I have been redirected to this talk page via the talk page of Template:Cite journal, the following refers to articles in academic journals)

A number of bibliographic databases have introduced the parameters "print year" and "online year", due to the increasing problem of articles being originally published electronically one year and then published in print one or two years later. A journal article is considered published in the year it was first published (usually electronically these days), but that year might be a different year than the year the print issue appears. I suggest we add at least "print year", to be used with volume, issue, pages etc, when the electronic version that the doi usually refers to was published in a different year.

Example: If I published the article "The reliability of Wikipedia articles" in the Journal of Wikipedia Studies, that started publication with Volume 1 in 2014, it would usually first appear only electronically, and be cited as:

  • Bjerrebæk, J. (2014). "The reliability of Wikipedia articles". Journal of Wikipedia Studies. doi:10.2307/1321160. 

But then, a year later, in 2015, the editors would finally manage to squeeze the article into the print issue Vol. 2, Issue 1, and then we have, according to the current template:

  • Bjerrebæk, J. (2014). "The reliability of Wikipedia articles". Journal of Wikipedia Studies 2 (1): 50–65. doi:10.2307/1321160. 

Here we would need a parameter to indicate that the print version (Vol. 2, Issue 1, pp. 50–65) appeared in 2015, not in 2014. Changing the "year" parameter from 2014 to 2015 would not be acceptable, because the work originally appeared in 2014 and may be cited as such by other literature. Bjerrebæk (talk) 11:06, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Just use year for the publication being cited, and orig. year for the earlier distribution. Clarify the /doc on this specific use case. No need for yet another parameter, very real as the problem is. I've used precisely this method to resolve it before, with no issues being raised.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  11:38, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Aren't we supposed to "say where we got it?" If I use the print version of your article, I would cite it pretty much the way you did except that I'd use |date=2015 and possibly |origyear=2014:
Bjerrebæk, J. (2015) [2014]. "The Reliability of Wikipedia articles". Journal of Wikipedia Studies 2 (1): 50–65. doi:10.2307/1321160. 
|origyear= (and |doi= or other online links) may not be appropriate if there were editorial changes made to facilitate the hardcopy format. You can also use |type= to distinguish between versions
Trappist the monk (talk) 11:51, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
If there were editorial changes that affected the content in a meaningful way, they are for WP purposes different sources, just like different editions of a book. If they didn't affect the content, then we don't need to care. This is too hair-splitty. Agreed we can use |type= in a case this "delicate", and then just move on. Any time spent agonizing over this kind of source massaging is time not spent on adding more sources.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  19:27, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Agree. |publication-date= might be applicable in some instances.
Markup Renders as
{{cite book |last=White |first=T. H |title=[[The Book of Merlyn]] |year=1941 |publication-date=1977 |publisher=University of Texas Press}}
White, T. H (1941). The Book of Merlyn. University of Texas Press (published 1977). 
--  Gadget850 talk 15:08, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
|publication-date= should not be used because it is not mentioned in Help:Citation Style 1. Thus, no one knows what it means or when it should be used. Maybe it is only intended for internal communications between templates. Maybe it is deprecated and is only supported to keep from breaking old citations that have not been updated yet. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:33, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
|publication-date= is documented on most, if not all, CS1 template documentation pages which, I think, should be the first place editors should go for template parameter information.
Trappist the monk (talk) 16:45, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Help:Citation Style 1 updated. --  Gadget850 talk 17:21, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

"At=" and "pages=" should NOT be considered redundant to each other for Cite Book[edit]

They have an obvious use case when citing a chapter from a book (which has a page range), but also one wants reference a particular page within e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kuroda_normal_form&oldid=621483103 JMP EAX (talk) 13:13, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

My workaround insofar for stuff like this was to use {{rp}} in addition to the citation, but it tends to clutter the page. And I don't really want to use the two-level notes/references system, because it's so unwieldy. JMP EAX (talk) 13:15, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Looking at the example in question, I have no clue what is meant by |pages=175–252 and |at=Theorem 2.2, p. 190.

{{cite book |last1=Mateescu | first1=Alexandru |last2=Salomaa|first2=Arto |editor1-first=Grzegorz| editor1-last=Rozenberg|editor2-first=Arto| editor2-last=Salomaa |title=Handbook of Formal Languages. Volume I: Word, language, grammar |publisher=Springer-Verlag |year=1997 |pages=175–252 |chapter=Chapter 4: Aspects of Classical Language Theory |isbn=3-540-61486-9|at=Theorem 2.2, p. 190}}

--  Gadget850 talk 15:03, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that this is a obvious use case. If |pages=175–252 defines the page range occupied by |chapter=Chapter 4: Aspects of Classical Language Theory then one or the other of those two parameters is redundant. In this case it would seem that |at=Theorem 2.2, p. 190 concisely identifies the location of the material that supports the claim in the article.
Trappist the monk (talk) 15:23, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
I think a slightly different case would be a good case to look at. The |chapter= parameter is intended treating a chapter in an edited book (which has an overall editor and chapters written by different authors) as a separate publication. But if the entire book is written by one book, and a particular claim is supported by an entire chapter of the book, as well as a few pages from another part of the book, you could use at = Chapter 5, Whatchamacallits | pages = 219–30 but the reader couldn't tell if you are citing Chapter 5 and pages 219–30, or you are indicating that Chapter 5 occupies 219–30. It would better to write at = Chapter 5, Whatchamacallits, also pp. 219–30. Unless we want to create permanent rules on template developers (fat chance) about how to combine |at= and |pages=, the results will be unpredictable and the results may confuse readers, either now, or the next time the template gets changed. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:49, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Update to the live CS1 module week of 2014-08-24[edit]

After the end of this week I propose to update:

Module:Citation/CS1 to match Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox (diff)
Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration to match Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox (diff)
Module:Citation/CS1/Whitelist to match Module:Citation/CS1/Whitelist/sandbox (diff)
Module:Citation/CS1/Date validation to match Module:Citation/CS1/Date validation/sandbox (diff)

This update changes the things: in Module:Citation/CS1:

  1. Normalize LCCN values before validation (discussion)
  2. Identify and categorize citations with |firstn= / |lastn= mismatch (discussion)
  3. arXiv validation (discussion)
  4. change |CitationClass= tests to require unspaced class names for {{cite DVD notes}} and {{cite AV media notes}} (discussion)
  5. fix bug in |vanc= handling (discussion)
  6. instances of four consecutive spaces converted to tabs

in Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration:

  1. Identify and categorize citations with |firstn= / |lastn= mismatch
  2. Add hyphenated parameter name aliases (discussion)
  3. instances of four consecutive spaces converted to tabs
  4. override <code>...</code> css formatting for error messages (discussion)

in Module:Citation/CS1/Whitelist:

  1. Add hyphenated parameter name aliases

in Module:Citation/CS1/Date validation:

  1. Add support for "Winter YYYY–YY" (discussion)
  2. Add support for whole date range validation (dmy - dmy and mdy - mdy formats) (discussion and discussion 2)

Trappist the monk (talk) 13:59, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Hooray! Our last update was at the end of March. A reminder that, after the update, if you see pages that still show an error message for something that should no longer show an error message, try purging (to refresh the display of the page) or null editing (to remove category membership) the page to fix it. There is more information in this VPT thread. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:03, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Trappist the monk I'm trying to modify the sandboxes to include the corrections for {{cite podcast}}; what's the problem?—D'Ranged 1 VTalk 19:52, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
It has been my practice to freeze new changes to the sandbox from the time I announce the update to the live module so that new changes don't disrupt seemingly settled changes. It also gives editors another chance to point out my failings before an update affects untold numbers of pages. As you can see from your post below, that last bit works.
Because you hadn't replied to my last post at Transcript parameter for cite podcast by the time I announced this update, I left it out.
Trappist the monk (talk) 21:44, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Additionally, the current Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox is rendering |id= erroneously as a Usenet ID; |publisherid= was deprecated in favor of using |id=. Wouldn’t it be easier to create a new |usenet= parameter?—D'Ranged 1 VTalk 20:25, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Comparisons
Template Markup Renders
Example 1
  live {{Cite AV media notes |title=Artist Live! |others=[[Artist]] |year=2000 |url=http://www.example.com |first=Malcolm |last=Johnson |page=1 |type=Liner notes |publisher=Arid Publications |id=Catalog no. K2145 |location=Los Angeles |accessdate=July 2, 2014}} Johnson, Malcolm (2000). Artist Live! (Liner notes). Artist. Los Angeles: Arid Publications. p. 1. Catalog no. K2145. Retrieved July 2, 2014. 
  sandbox {{Cite AV media notes/sandbox2 |title=Artist Live! |others=[[Artist]] |year=2000 |url=http://www.example.com |first=Malcolm |last=Johnson |page=1 |type=Liner notes |publisher=Arid Publications |id=Catalog no. K2145 |location=Los Angeles |access-date=July 2, 2014}} Johnson, Malcolm (2000). Artist Live! (Liner notes). Artist. Los Angeles: Arid Publications. p. 1. Catalog no. K2145. Retrieved July 2, 2014. 
Example 2
  live {{Cite AV media notes |title=Artist Live! |titlelink=Album Title |others=[[Artist]] |year=2000 |first=Malcolm |last=Johnson |page=1 |type=Liner notes |publisher=Arid Publications |id=Catalog no. K2145 |location=Los Angeles}} Johnson, Malcolm (2000). Artist Live! (Liner notes). Artist. Los Angeles: Arid Publications. p. 1. Catalog no. K2145. 
  sandbox {{Cite AV media notes/sandbox2 |title=Artist Live! |title-link=Album Title |others=[[Artist]] |year=2000 |first=Malcolm |last=Johnson |page=1 |type=Liner notes |publisher=Arid Publications |id=Catalog no. K2145 |location=Los Angeles}} Johnson, Malcolm (2000). Artist Live! (Liner notes). Artist. Los Angeles: Arid Publications. p. 1. Catalog no. K2145. 
The Usenet problem appears to be caused by new code in Configuration/Sandbox that starts with ['USENETID'] = {. Also in the Module itself, search for the new code beginning with -- special case for cite newsgroup which uses |id= for a usenet article or post idJonesey95 (talk) 20:32, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
This discussion about migration of {{cite newsgroup}} was archived without answering the question of whether to use a new parameter, |message-id=, instead of |id=. Maybe that new parameter is needed. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:15, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Right, forgot about this half-done change. Thanks for the reminder. I think that I'll comment-out the relevant portions so that the rest of the update can proceed.
Trappist the monk (talk) 21:44, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Documentation needed[edit]

We need documentation sections on Help:CS1 errors for the new arXiv and first name / last name errors. Does anyone have a sandboxed version of those new sections yet? If not, I'll start drafting them in commented sections on the page.

The styling change for the error message means that we will need to re-style the error messages on the Help page as well. Is there a clever way to do this for the whole page, or do we need to edit each instance of code individually? – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:40, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

On my list of things to do before the update but I won't turn away willing help. I am unaware of any clever tricks except a change to common.css (which I don't think will fly). So, each <code>...</code> in the example error messages in Help:CS1 errors has to become <code style="color:inherit; border:inherit; padding:inherit;">...</code>.
Trappist the monk (talk) 21:44, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Error message style in Help:CS1 errors done.
Trappist the monk (talk) 21:59, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
I have added commented documentation to the Help page. I think it will look right when it is uncommented, but I am not sure. Feel free to tweak my wording if it does not make sense; consider my work a first draft. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
And I've rather heavily edited them. I split the author/editor list errors into two descriptions because they really are two separate conditions. I'm wondering if they shouldn't also have separate categories. Have a look.
Trappist the monk (talk) 14:51, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Your edits look fine to me. I might tweak the wording a bit after it goes live and I can see it in context, but I do not expect to make major changes.

I don't think we need separate categories. In both cases, |lastn= is missing. That's the fundamental error. Now that there are two sections, however, to which section will the "help" link direct editors?

I do think that a missing editor should report "missing |editor-lastn=" instead of "missing |lastn=". The current error message is "missing |lastn=", which is confusing and not strictly accurate.

Cite book compare
{{ cite book | editor1=Editor 1 | editor4=Editor 4 | title=Title | editor2=Editor 2 | displayeditors=29 }}
Old Title.
Live Editor 1; Editor 2 (eds.). Title. 
Sandbox Editor 1; Editor 2; Editor 4 (eds.). Title.  Missing |last3= in Editors list (help)


Is that difficult or easy to modify? – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:39, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

That's why the error messages identify the particular list where the error was found and also why I added the blurb about the error messages using a bit of shorthand. I'm sure that we can tweak the error messages to get what we want but I'd rather not do that just now. We can certainly refine them before the next update.
Trappist the monk (talk) 16:49, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Rendering problem with right-to-left language and trans-title[edit]

Trappist the monk and others who might know the details of the Lua code: please see the following thread at VPT: Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Citations with title parameter in rtl language.2C beginning with numbers: Display issue and workaroundJonesey95 (talk) 16:32, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

self-referential authorlinks[edit]

Is there a guideline which recommends using the authorlink parameter to refer to the same article that the cite book tag appears in? In this edit summary, Damiens.rf contends, "this parameter IS to be used even in the case of the subject's being the author. It would give an error otherwise." I don't see why this would be the case, as such a usage does not fall within the normal recommendations on self links. Nick Number (talk) 18:18, 21 August 2014 (UTC)