Template talk:Climbing sidebar

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WikiProject Climbing (Rated NA-class)
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Doubts on this sidebar[edit]

I think this sidebar is a big WP:POV and really incomplete (this sidebar try to describe too many different arguments: rock climbing, mountaineering, ice climbing, ...), for example:

  1. Terms: why just these three terms (Abseiling, Belaying, Grades) ? There are a lot of other fundamental terms...
  2. Gears: again as for Terms, why only Belay device, Dynamic rope, Harness, Protection, Shoes ?
  3. Climbing companies: why only these companies? this seems really like advertising, I would remove companies just now.

I think should be better to delete this sidebar at all (too much incomplete and POV) and use instead a wlink at bottom page redirecting to (I am not sure if en.wiki uses portals at bottom page):

  • Portal:Rock Climbing (extending it with complete lists) for pages regarding rock climbing (trad climbing, big wall climbing, ...) and climbers related to rock climbing
  • Portal:Mountaineering for pages regarding mountaineering, ice climbing and mountaineers related to mountaineering

--Rotpunkt (talk) 16:28, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I have seen now Template:Climbing navbox, with the same problems (under people why only: Arlene Blum, Lynn Hill, Edmund Hillary, Vera Komarkova, Dean Potter, Chris Sharma ???). Using lists could be ok, but lists must be a lot longer. I don't know if en.wiki uses portals at bottom page. If it's not possible, it would be better to create specialized navbox: Template:Rock climbing navbox, Template:Mountaineering navbox, with specialized (and longer) lists inside. Mixing all together (Climbers and Deaths on eight-thousanders, Edmund Hillary and Chris Sharma, Swiss Alpine Club and International Federation of Sport Climbing, Mixed Climbing and Speed climbing) is incomprehensible. It's like writing a navbox "Water" where you talk about swimming, surfing, sail, all mixed together. --Rotpunkt (talk) 16:40, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
WP:SOFIXIT. It won't be deleted simply because it's incomplete. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 17:23, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Sure, I have the ideas how to fix it (sorry for my bad english). This sidebar has multiple problems:
  1. It's too small (the layout I mean) for containing some semi-complete lists, so it is destinated to remain a WP:POV.
  2. The only field that has some sense is "Types", because it's a bit more complete, but "Lists", "Terms", "Gear" are completely WP:POV and "Climbing companies" is almost WP:PROMO.
  3. it's used in the same pages where is already used Template:Climbing navbox, so it's a duplicated
  4. it has the same problems of Template:Climbing navbox: the word "climbing" is just too much generic, so we have together:
  • Climbers and Deaths on eight-thousanders
  • Edmund Hillary and Chris Sharma
  • Swiss Alpine Club and International Federation of Sport Climbing
  • Mixed Climbing and Speed climbing
So my idea is:
  1. Delete this sidebar, it is just a WP:POV and a duplicated of Template:Climbing navbox, used together in the same pages. I have checked now, it is used in just 30 pages.
  2. Move Template:Climbing navbox => Template:Rock climbing navbox, in which we put terminology ONLY about rock climbing
  3. Create a new Template:Mountaineering navbox for terminology ONLY about mountaineering: we can put in it Ice axe, Ice screw, Ice tool, Mixed climbing, alpine clubs, and so on.
  4. Now we can use Template:Rock climbing navbox for all pages about rock climbing and Template:Mountaineering navbox in all pages about mountaineering.
In both navbox if we want, we can also put some climbers and mountaineers, but it must be a bigger list. It couldn't be only 5 climbers like now. When I wrote it:Portale:Alpinismo (see section "Alpinisti per periodo"), I put 80 mountaineers for creating something that is not a POV (for example instead of Blum, Hill, Hillary, Komarkova, Potter and Sharma, I could have used: Whymper, Messner, Ondra, Destivelle, Rutkiewicz). 5 climbers/mountaineers is simply not enough, it is better to remove it at all, and replacing with a wlink to category:rock climbers and category:mountain climbers. The same applies for companies, that I would however remove at all. --Rotpunkt (talk) 19:01, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
I have started writing the new navboxes, when ready I will post here. --Rotpunkt (talk) 21:20, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Your idea for how to fix it is to delete it. That's not fixing it. You say that "it's too small". That's not a problem. Lots of links can be added. See, for example, Template:Anarchism sidebar. The reason it's semi-complete is that it's not done yet. And as this is a volunteer project, work only gets done on it when volunteers have the time. If you have the time, you are invited to add articles to the template. The sections are not set in stone and each section can be sub-divided further. We could make the first division be the different types of climbing, I guess. I'm struggling to see how WP:POV applies here, please enlighten me. As a native English speaker, I will start by telling you it doesn't, not even close. WP:PROMO doesn't come close to applying either: There are companies that are dedicated to climbing, they satisfy our notability requirements and have Wikipedia articles, they should be included in the template. The navbox and sidebar should not be used on the same page. If you see a page where they are, delete one of them, probably the navbox. You're free to create other templates if you want, I can't stop you. I would, however, encourage you to try to help with this template. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 21:22, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
This navbox is to be deleted because is a pov AND because is a duplicated of Template:Climbing navbox. Why we have to use two navbox with the same functionalities in the same page (see for example Deep-water soloing) ? We need only one (and a lot improved), or Template:Climbing navbox or Template:Climbing sidebar, not both of them, they contains the same wilinks and have the same functionalities. If I have to choose between Template:Climbing sidebar and Template:Climbing navbox I prefer a lot Template:Climbing navbox because (1) it's bigger and I can put more wlinks in it, so it's more complete (2) it's at the bottom of page, so I have more space for organizing the page layout. Regarding the companies, just for information, there are other sport-navboxes with companies in it? --Rotpunkt (talk) 21:56, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
I have written the new proposed navbox here: User:Rotpunkt/Sandbox. --Rotpunkt (talk) 00:48, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
This template will not be deleted. It is not POV. And it is not a duplicate of Template:Climbing navbox. You understanding of English is so poor, I have doubts that you can contribute to this project collaboratively. Or else you speak fine English and are just being obtuse. Yes, they have the same functionality, but they are placed at different places on the page. Much the same way categories and lists organize topics but in a different way. Regarding Deep-water soloing, I removed {{Climbing navbox}}. See how easy that way? You could have fixed it, but chose instead to complain about it. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 12:58, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
I am used to discuss the problems. I think this template (used in 30 pages) is useless and a duplicated of Template:Climbing navbox. You think differently, perfect, we can just wait for other users to say their opinion. You can't just say "This template will not be deleted" wikipedia belongs to all us, all opinions are equal and decisions are taken together. See Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. I think that these templates I wrote: User:Rotpunkt/Sandbox are already good improvement compared with Template:Climbing navbox. Removing {{Climbing navbox}} from Deep-water soloing is not a solution. Is there a rule for using Template:Climbing sidebar or Template:Climbing navbox or both? Which one I have to use in a page without navboxes? --Rotpunkt (talk) 13:47, 14 May 2013 (UTC)