Template talk:Cite comic

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Contents

[edit] History

Created and added documentation: Hiding talk 21:56, 8 December 2005 (UTC) Converted to qif by Adrian and myself over the 14th and 15th December 2005. Examples finished, and reference added 16th December 2005. Hiding talk 20:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Conversion to qif

Hi! I've been so bold to try to convert to template:qif, which is faster and server friendlier (one less call level). I am doing that to several templates at the moment. While converting, I think I found two bugs: I inserted two times the char "|" (at the beginning of the respective lines, it's a bit hard to see in the diff). I think there was some nesting error. Hope I'm not wrong. Sorry for intervening your work. – Adrian | Talk 22:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Obviously there is now something broken as can be seen in the examples. As this is not used in articles, I'll leave it for now, maybe you can see better what's wrong. Please feel free to revert. But trust me: qif is better than if. Sorry for that half baked edit. – Adrian | Talk 22:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Resolved: Move completed.

This template should be at Template:Cite comic in conformance with all other citation templates of this sort. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Makes a degree of sense... and presumable the existing uses will still work after the move. Also, "comic book" would be inappropriate since this can also be used for web comics, strips, and so on. - J Greb 19:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Support Makes sense to me. Why would comics be different from all other media? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 18:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

This article has been renamed from Template:Comic book reference to Template:Cite comic as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 18:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Ouch. There's actually a comic strip reference that should be used rather than this for strips and the like. One job on the long to do list was to merge those two and the other variant for single panel cartoons into one and house them in a single template at cite:comic. Hiding Talk 11:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
    Why's that an "ouch"? All that's left to do is the merge. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
    It's an ouch because it's a prod in the ribs to get on and do it. Hiding Talk 10:36, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
    Heh. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A colorist field

Resolved: Field added.

Could someone add a colorist field? And a corresponding "multiple" colorist field like inkers and pencillers have?--Rockfang (talk) 20:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

  • What articles are you looking to cite the colorists for? It might be easier to simply subst the template and then add that info. Would that help?
    • I'd rather it just be added to the template.--Rockfang (talk) 20:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
      • Feel free to do so. Hiding T 20:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
        • I would if I knew how. That's why I was asking if someone could do it.--Rockfang (talk) 20:34, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
          • The trouble is it's a hard slog to do it, and like I say, it would only be useful in very few articles and therefore it's easier to just subst the template and add the extra info. If you provided me with an article, I could show you how to do it. Hiding T 20:37, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
            • Thanks for the offer, but I know how to subst stuff. I've gotten the colorist field working at Template:X6 using User:Rockfang/Sandbox, but I can't get the Co colorist field to show. Any ideas?--Rockfang (talk) 00:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
              • I've solved that issue, but there are issues with that version of the template. It won't display the colorist field if the writer and artist are the same. Hiding T 13:28, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
              • Also, how many works have more than one colorist? Hiding T 13:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
                • Thanks for working on the template. I'm not sure of the number of multi-colorist comic books but one example is DC Comics' Secret Origins volume 2 #10.--Rockfang (talk) 16:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
                  • Let's refine that a little — how many stories from an issue have multiple colorists. I believe that if we're are using the cite properly, we're citing the specific story from a comic that has multiple sotires like Secret Origins. - J Greb (talk) 22:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Ok. Forget I ever mentioned co-colorist. The point is, colorist should still be added to Cite comic. It was a valid job title used by at least DC Comics from at least 1985-1990. Would anyone have a problem with me adding it to this template?--Rockfang (talk) 00:56, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
    • If we add it we'll have to add letterer. And the template is a bit of a mess, with the punctuation all messed up. You've nudged me into accepting it needs to be done, so if you can hang on, I'll try and get it done. I've long had it on my to do list to merge this with the cartoon and comic strip citation templates, so if you can hang on I'll get to it. And I apologise for being so grumpy before. I'm somewhat frazzled at the minute doing increased hours at work. Hiding T 10:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
You'll have my vote as Citation Template Hero of the Quarter if you pull all that off. PS: If letterists are credited and may be notable as such over a career, having letterists as well as colorists in here might be a valuable form of metadata. I'm pretty sure {{Cite book}} has illustrator and other fields that are similar in their rarely-used but sometimes-significant scope. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I never did work out how to merge editorial cartoonist and comic strip artist into this. I was hoping someone who worked on {{cite}} might have useful input, but I think after mapping it out it is impossible, since the same fields react differently depending on context. Hiding T 16:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Date query

Is the "date" field meant to show the date the comic was released or the cover date (which is usually a few months after the date of release)? For recent comics it's not too tough to find out the date a comic arrived in the comic stores, but for older comics it might be difficult to find this. I'm not sure whether "date of publication" refers to the day a comic arrives in the store, or the date listed on its cover and/or indicia. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

In most cases the cover date would be preferable since that's how most, if not all, indexing of the primary sources is done. - J Greb (talk) 22:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks — that makes sense. Perhaps the documentation should be changed to reflect this, since "date of publication" could be ambiguous? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 00:26, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it would also be prudent to add to the template doc for the date a mention of the cover date? In the Late 80's DC didn't put a month in their copyright blurbs in some titles.--Rockfang (talk) 23:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds very wise. If the date can't be found in the indicia, there's nothing left but the cover date.— SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
It was already added. Thank you for the comment though. ;) Rockfang (talk) 12:06, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

For books, journals, etc., it's the publication/release date, not the date that paper/discs/whatever actually came out of the press. I'm dead certain there's the same expectation for comics or (beta-format video tapes or web comics or anything else for that matter). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Co-artist

Resolved: Field added.

Along the same lines as the colorist section above, I suggest Co-artist be added as well. If someone knows how to do this, please do.--Rockfang (talk) 05:16, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it in there already now? — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Not that I can see.--Rockfang (talk) 12:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I'll have a sort through the history of the sandboxes to dig this out. Hiding T 16:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Why is it needed? Give me some examples so I know what I'm working for. Hiding T 17:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Some comics have Co-artists. For example, Young All-Stars #9 cover date February 1988. Both Brian Murray, and Malcom Jones III were credited as artists on page 5. I used a cite on Paula Brooks crediting both artists. I ended using penciller, copenciller, inker, and coinker.--Rockfang (talk) 18:27, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Okay. So you wouldn't need it to work with the inker or penciller fields. Hiding T 19:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm rebuilding the template in a sandbox. I think I nearly have it to satisfaction. Do we want a co-letterer or co-editor field? Hiding T 23:20, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't think either will be used all that often, but you are welcome to add them if you like.--Rockfang (talk) 00:28, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The location parameter

I don't think we really need a location field. Seems kinda pointless. Opinions?--Rockfang (talk) 12:21, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

After double checking with the editor that added it in, it makes a degree of sense in that it brings this cite template closer in line with other "paper" media cite templates. That is, the standard for citing a book or periodical is to include where the publisher is physically located. It's optional, and it may be applicable to only a very, very small number of articles or cites. It seems to fit into a "no harm, no foul" type addition. - J Greb (talk) 22:26, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Not to mention it's required by MLA and several other academic citation styles. I and surely others who regularly use {{Cite book}} and {{Cite journal}} (where this parameter has been there from the start as a key citation component) have been adding |location= information to {{Cite web}} instances for years, just waiting for the darned parameter to be enabled there (currently the subject of an {{editprotected}}). I've probably added this field, as matter of proper citation course, to at least 300 web source citations in the last year alone. ("About us" and "Contact us" pages are your friend - they usually have a postal address, and when they don't, whois usually does.) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:27, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
PS: This may not be instantly intuitive, but there are latent but strong WP:NPOV reasons to have the location field there, since the country, and sometimes the the region/coast or even city, of publication indicates a lot about the underlying assumptions, biases and tenor of a work. Like, how do you feel about a grammar book published in San Francisco, CA, vs. one published in Oxford, England? Not a crucial issue for comic books, generally, but on principle publisher location is simply an integral part of the full reference citation, and comics shouldn't get a "magical pass" to not comply. It's not a mandatory field and cannot possibly hurt anything at all. (A clearer example might be: What questions for further investigation might a reader come up with, with regard to a comic book about underground life in South Africa, if the comic were published in South Africa, vs. in London or Amsterdam, given the history of South Africa?) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The page/pages parameters

Resolved: Field amended.

I undid this edit. It was causing ({{{page}}}) to show up in all citations that did not use a page number. If the intention was to have a page number required for all comic book citations, I disagree with this.--Rockfang (talk) 12:38, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I've got a feeling he was looking at the fact the the suggested parameter in the docs was "pages" but the template only looks for "page". The assumption seems to be that there may indeed be instances where "pages" was used and no one noted that they didn't show up. - J Greb (talk) 22:30, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Can someone with a better template code brain please fix this error on my part, rightly reverted by Rockfang, but still needing to be implemented correctly? The purpose of it is do nothing but make the page and pages parameters be equivalent, because although the template only supported page the documentation has for a very long time given pages (which is used by most of the rest of the templates in the {{Cite}} family) as equivalent. But it didn't work. It needs to, since pages is actually broadly deployed. Argh. I've looked at it again and again, and am just not seeing where it is broken (though Rockfang is quite right that it was certainly broken). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:20, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
That should have fixed it. Hiding T 16:43, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Hurrah! — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] URL and accessdate

I don't see any reason why this template shouldn't have the url and accessdate parameters. Anyone else think they should be added? Pagrashtak 14:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

If added, they will probably fall into the same category as the location parameter: hardly ever used, but won't hurt to have them available.--Rockfang (talk) 19:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've got a draft in the sandbox. Take a look at the testcases and let me know if you see any problems. Here's a summary of changes:
  • optional parameters url and accessdate added. If the parameter story is present, the url is linked there. Otherwise, the url is linked to the required title parameter.
  • Full stop added to the end and after the date to match the other {{Cite xxx}} templates.
  • Various spacing issues fixed. The current version has an extraneous space at the beginning before linked writer, and uses two spaces to separate writer from penciller, volume from issue, etc.
  • Use of non-breaking spaces changed. Instead of "... vol. 1", we now have "... vol. 1", and other such fixes.
  • Writer with no penciller or illustrator now correctly uses a full stop after the writer instead of a comma.
Take a look and let me know if you see any problems with the sandbox version. Pagrashtak 21:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
I know next to nothing about template code. I suggest asking Hiding to take a look at it. He seems to be a template guru. :) Rockfang (talk) 21:43, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
The template has been updated with the changes. Pagrashtak 12:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
There were some punctuation changes to be made, I've introduced them in this full rewrite. Hiding T 19:35, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] ISBN and OCLC

Shouldn't this have ISBN and OCLC fields like Template:Cite book? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sukael (talk • contribs) 20:44, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Possibly... but unlikely. Almost all of the cites will deal with magazines which don't usually carry an ISBN. - J Greb (talk) 20:54, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Why not? We've added 3 other fields that will probably rarely get used. Why not another 2? ;) In fact, maybe we should just stop using this template all together and just go straight to {{Cite book}}?  ;) Rockfang (talk) 20:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind that... as long as somebody's willing to add artist (and coartists), inker (and coinkers), penciller (and copencillers), writer (and cowriters), panel, story (well, the existing "series" might work for that), and issue parameters - or equivalent support for them. Sukael \o/ 21:36, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
And the would be very, very silly. Using that argument all we would need is a single "cite" template with fields and mark up to cover comics. magazines, books, television shows, films, newspapers, web sites, speeches, hamsters, etc.
"One size fits all" does work, but not all the time. This is a case in point. Comic books are not books and books are not comics. The only possible cites I can think of where an ISBN would exist are 1) graphic novels, but then not always and 2) trade-paperback collections.
Graphic novels can use this template just fine.
The TPBs depend on what exactly is being referenced.
  • Reprinted material should be cited to the original publication - that is the magazine.
  • Original story elements added to the TPB (I'm thinking the extra pages in Kingdom Come) can be covered with this template.
  • Material pulled from forwards or afterwards should use the book template sine it is text.
- J Greb (talk) 00:12, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Don't think I've ever cited a "hamster" before. ;) Rockfang (talk) 02:28, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
No reason not to plan in advance... I'm sure a civilization will spring up one day that uses painted hamsters to transfer information. Who wants to start on the template so that it's ready once they're around? ;D
As for the ISBN, OCLC, etc. fields, I'm mainly thinking of trades - and manga, which are often collected as books but could definitely use the extra art-oriented fields of {{cite comic}} Sukael \o/ 16:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
This is what the id field is for. Hiding T 19:34, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] The volume/episode dependency problem

The ability of content in the episode= parameter to be displayed cannot be dependent upon the presence of a volume= value. Not all comics in the world are issued as volume/issue, some are just issued as issue numbers. The code to fix this can be ripped from {{Cite journal}} or {{Cite news}}, both of which use these fields but do not have this dependency issue. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 05:34, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

  • You mean issue, yeah? When I wrote the thing the consensus was to always use a volume number, but that's moved on. I know how to do it, no issues there. Let me get my play area ready and I'll check for kinks. Hiding T 09:51, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Okay, that's done. I've also amended the formatting so that vol is now in bold, issue is in brackets and page number and panel follows the issue number. I can't quite work out how to get to grips with the citation core right this minute, but it's something for a rainy day. My only concern is the large number of author fields we have to use. Hiding T 11:07, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, and yes, sorry, I meant "issue". I've been digging around in all of these related templates for so long that "issue", "episode", "volume" and "season" are beginning to blur. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Stray parenthesis when "issue" is blank

When this template is used for a work without an issue number (as, for example, a collection of a story arc) it places a stray end parenthesis after the work's title. See the Death of Superman example at Template:Cite comic#Citation of a collection of a story arc for an example, or the citation of the collection Superman: Eradication! at Eradicator (comics) (currently footnote #6). Can someone more knowledgeable than I am about template syntax please fix this? Thanks. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:25, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

  • I'll look into it. Poke me if there's no activity in a reasonable time frame. ;) Hiding T 15:15, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Resolved: fingers crossed I've caught this. Hiding T 15:19, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Yep — looks like this has fixed it. Thanks. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:11, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Year/Date

See ref 31 (Moore, Alan (w), Swan, Curt (p), Pérez, George & Schaffenberger, Kurt (i). Superman: Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? ({{{date}}}), DC Comics, ISBN 1-56389-315-0) in Superman. Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 20:17, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Date is a required field, see the documentation. The format of that reference needs changing from year = 1997 to date = 1997.
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