Template talk:Eucharist

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Rationale[edit]

This template originated because of discussion found at Talk:Eucharist#Template_creation_proposed. Feel free to edit, comment, critique, etc. KHM03 6 July 2005 00:07 (UTC)

Important People[edit]

I think the template looks good, and is definately needed. However, I think perhaps instead of "Important People" it might be beter to say "Important Theologians" or something. Alternatively, we should add Jesus & St. Paul to the list, as they definately qualify as "important people" in regard to the Eucharist. Otherwise, I think it looks good. -- Essjay · Talk July 6, 2005 01:49 (UTC)

That's fine with me. KHM03 6 July 2005 11:26 (UTC)
I added Jesus & Paul. They are first on the list...everyone else is alphabetical. KHM03 6 July 2005 11:29 (UTC)
Very nice. Having Jesus under "Important Theologians" strikes me as a little odd, especially on an equal basis with the others. Perhaps setting him apart under "Founder" or "Instituted by:" would be better. I'd also change "Theological views" to "Theology" and move "Theologies contrasted" up from "Related articles". JHCC (talk) 6 July 2005 16:21 (UTC)
I'm going to make these changes to see how it looks. Feel free to revert. JHCC (talk) 6 July 2005 16:26 (UTC)

Done! Any other suggestions? KHM03 6 July 2005 16:28 (UTC)

If John Wesley wrote anything on the Eucharist, add him under "Theologians" (as well as anyone else relevant). JHCC (talk) 6 July 2005 16:39 (UTC)

(Sorry, JHCC...didn't see that you were doing it as well...KHM03 6 July 2005 16:31 (UTC))

No problem. JHCC (talk) 6 July 2005 16:39 (UTC)

New additions[edit]

I think the inclusion of Mass is fine, but would question the inclusion of Alexander Schmemann. The folks I listed all made essential contributions to sacramental theology. I did not even include John Wesley, founder of my own tradition, because while he wrote extensively on the Eucharist, he didn't make any invaluable contributions to the subject (he was Anglican via Orthodoxy, essentially). Alexander Schmemann, and others, have undoubtedly made wonderful contributions in more recent times, but the folks I think we should include should be foundational figures. What does everyone else think? KHM03 6 July 2005 17:40 (UTC)

I would rather go as wide as possible on this. Schmemann's writings, especially in For the Life of the World: Sacraments and Orthodoxy (1970) and The Eucharist: Sacrament of the Kingdom (1988), are a very clear articulation of the role of the Eucharist in Orthodox spirituality, as well as being instrumental in reviving the practice of frequent Communion. I'm sure that other writers, such as Wesley, are equally important in articulating their own traditions, even if they are not "foundational" as such. JHCC (talk) 6 July 2005 17:56 (UTC)

The problem is that we could end up with a huge template. For my money, no one articulated the beauty and importance of the Eucharist like the Wesley boys...but they made no significant contribution to Eucharistic theology. We could probably list a dozen or so Catholic theologians on there as well, but it would be nice to have a neat, relatively concise template. At least that's my vision. KHM03 6 July 2005 18:12 (UTC)

A huge template may be unavoidable. We still haven't added Eucharistic adoration, Blessed Sacrament, Corpus Christi, or Excommunication , let alone Chalice, Bread, or Wine. Yes, it may be a huge template, but it's an awefully huge subject. JHCC (talk) 6 July 2005 18:46 (UTC)

One important theologian I see missing is Augustine; he's probably the most cited and most controversial figure in Eucharistic theology, since every side believes he supports thier position. (Arguments have been made that he professed transubstantiation, consubstantion, nosubstantiation, and a variety of positions in between.) -- Essjay · Talk July 6, 2005 19:07 (UTC)

I'm for adding Augustine, but are articles like Corpus Christi and Eucharistic adoration absolutely necessary? KHM03 6 July 2005 19:10 (UTC)

I'm against Corpus Christi (i's relevant as a celebration, but a bit obscure for a general template) but I think Eucharistic adoration is important, since 1) it's highly misunderstood, and 2) several of the articles with RC sections mention it. -- Essjay · Talk July 6, 2005 19:13 (UTC)

I reduced the size (too small?), added the adoration & Augustine, & removed Schmemann. Again, I'd love to keep this as simple as possible,so that folks can get an overview of the essentials, the most important points and figures. KHM03 6 July 2005 19:23 (UTC)
Reordered & resized again. KHM03 6 July 2005 19:31 (UTC)

Where to put what[edit]

Does Sacrament belong under "Theology" or "Related articles"? I'd think that the "Theology" section should only have specifically Eucharistic theology, and everything else (e.g., Chalice) under "Related articles". JHCC (talk) 6 July 2005 18:08 (UTC)

That's OK with me. KHM03 6 July 2005 18:12 (UTC)
Done. JHCC (talk) 6 July 2005 18:36 (UTC)

Let's do it![edit]

We could probably haggle endlessly about what else to add, but what we have now is, as KHM03 puts it so well, a very good "overview of the essentials, the most important points and figures." I'm going to plug it into the Eucharist article so we can see how it looks. JHCC (talk) 6 July 2005 20:13 (UTC)

I like it there, JHCC. It also looks very nice on Lord's Supper. Mkmcconn (Talk) 6 July 2005 21:08 (UTC)

A little big for some key articles -- what to do?[edit]

I tried the template on the Consubstantiation article, and it hangs off the page by quite a bit. I wonder if this perhaps might be better as a horizontal template? I'm not sure what to do, but It doesn't look as nice on stubby articles such as Consubstantiation Mkmcconn (Talk) 6 July 2005 21:07 (UTC)

Simple: expand the Consubstantiation article! JHCC (talk) 7 July 2005 12:49 (UTC)

Clean up[edit]

The link to Communion is unnecessary, since it is just a disamb page. Also, the The Lord's Supper article should just be merged with Eucharist. Then the "other terms" section of this template can be removed altogether.--JW1805 17:49, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

  • Also, I think the "Instituted by Jesus Christ" is just a little bit POV.
  • I went ahead and made these changes.--JW1805 22:42, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the change re: Communion, at least as long as that remains a disamb page. However, The Lord's Supper is a specific, well established usage with different implications than Eucharist. As for "Instituted by" being POV, there may be different PsOV regarding the meaning of the Eucharist, but I don't believe there is any serious POV that anyone other than Jesus instituted it. Even those who maintain that it was not to be a perpetual observance do not challenge that. I will revert the changes until such time as we can have a more thorough discussion of this. JHCC (talk) 00:37, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Right, Communion is just a disamb page, so there really is no reason to have it linked in the template, I don't think that would be controversal to remove. Also note that I merged The Lord's Supper with Eucharist, so now that link is also unnecessary. Actually (see the talk page), I think Eucharist should be moved to Communion, since I think that is more of a non-denominational term. As far as "instituted by |Instituted by
    Jesus Christ
    ", my reasoning on that is that it's sort of POV, since of course people who don't believe Jesus Christ ever existed wouldn't agree that the Eucharist was instituted by him. --JW1805 01:09, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Having seen the changes you made to Eucharist, I've changed the template to "Eucharist, AKA Communion or The Lord's Supper". Still, let's talk. JHCC (talk) 01:04, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
I like it, just remove the links. I'll do it, and see what it looks like, and then if the consensus is to bring back the "Lords Supper" article, we can change it back. --JW1805 01:48, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

POV[edit]

I deleted "Instituted by Jesus Christ" due to its being clearly POV (biased). The communion was, according to the Bible, instituted after Jesus's death. Anyone who belives Jesus did not rise from the grave does not believe Jesus instituted communion. That's a majority of Mankind. WAS 4.250 00:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Name?[edit]

We should just rename this Template:Eucharist. It would be consistent with the names of all the articles it links to. PhageRules1 (talk) 16:23, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Done. "Communion" is an ambiguous term. Esoglou (talk) 07:25, 12 October 2012 (UTC)