Template talk:Country data France

Royal France

The notion of a national flag in France seems to be unclear during the time before the Revolution. There are a number of flags that seem to be popular here on the 'pedia to represent the Kingdom of France (notably, in battle infoboxes). This entry is an attempt by me to categorize them:

Naval Ensign 1638-1790.[1]

Variant of the above with fleurs-de-lis.

The plain white ensign with the royal French greater arms. (Image lacks source and has a dubious copyright state.)

New version:

The fleurs-de-lis ensign with the royal French greater arms. (The image is from Flags of the World so it's probably not usable in large scale on the 'pedia.)

The France Modern banner introduced in 1365 by Charles V (this particular image is also the modern flag of Île-de-France.)

Unsourced fusion of the white ensign with the France Modern design.

--Himasaram 08:30, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

google first hit on "histoire drapeau France" [2](yes, not very reliable, but at least you'll understand. We'll see later if we need WP:V):

• Naval Ensign 1638-1790 AND 1814-1830, sometimes with golden fleurdelys ( or  ? We'd better use the first one, plain white...).

(Caption says : "Salute protocol was very strict — and battles got started because some foreigners refused to respect it : Any ship encounting one of his majesty's ship was expected to :

• take down his flag if flown on main mast, if not to take down his ensign
• take down mizzen sail
• go downwind)

• The old royal flag was with blue background
• Charles V introduced the modern banner () to honor the trinity. Yet, Charles VI still used the old one. And some of his successors used the white flag with fleur-de-lys. Quite unclear...
• This flag was used in 1638 - 1790 and 1814 - 1830 as the royal flag :

There are other flags in the page, referring to french Merchant Marine. If you need them thought, i can translate the information. NicDumZ ~ 14:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, so you suggest using the plain white ensign to represent France during the period? There's only one problem with this flag, though, and that is that it's very similar to the white flag of truce and might be misinterpreted as such. BTW, this painting depicting a scene from the Siege of Yorktown clearly shows the French ensign as a plain white flag. --Himasaram 00:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

You know, I'm used to French bashing and I think I thought about that confusion long before you ;) . Yes, we should. Confusion maybe, but that was the Royal flag ! White, pure white was the color of the King. Not many children know about this old flag, but every French knows that our current flag represent the color of the King between blue and red, the colors of Paris, as Parisian wanted give less power to the King. NicDumZ ~ 06:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, this is what I suggest then for Royalist France: (exact years in parentheses from [3] - I don't know if they are correct)

• 12th~13th century (1180 - 1364)
• 14th~16th century (1364 - 1638)
• 17th~18th century (1638 - 24 Oct 1790)
• Restauration (6 Apr 1814 - 13 Mar 1815; 8 Jul 1815 - 1 Aug 1830)

While the plain white flag might have been the norm during the 'Ancient Regime', the white fleur-de-lis flag was apparently favoured during the Bourbon Restoration.[4] --Himasaram 00:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the plain white flag should be used flags of the world says this flag[5] was the state flag from 1578-1791 --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 20:24, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

This is the royal banner, while the plain white one is the naval ensign. Neither are national flags in the modern sense, but the naval ensign represents the entire country better IMO. In any case, we need more reliable sources to back up either argument. --Himasaram 11:07, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

But the French King was the state hense why I think the royal banner is the most apporopriate flag and flags of the world lists it as such rather than a naval ensign. --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 18:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Regions etc

The are a lot of mistakes in the region flags. Or... maybe not. The problem is that there are for every region, a flag, and a new modern "logo" created by the conseil general. For example, fr:Rhône-Alpes has both. The question is : Should we use the flag, or the modern logo ? I say we should use the old flag...

In that point of view, a lot of things have to be corrected. I think that most of the flags can be imported through commons from the Fr.WP . If not, http://perso.orange.fr/martine.lauwers/drapeauxmap.html#Drapeaux has most of the flags, they will need to be re-created/I may ask the author for her permission. NicDumZ ~ 06:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

All of those flags are from Commons. If you think there are mistakes, please comment on the talk page for the specific template(s) instead of here. My intent was merely to list them here for documentation purposes, not to make this a discussion page for all of them. Thanks, Andrwsc 06:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I see what you mean. I have updated most of them. Again, if you think there are any mistakes, please comment on the respective template pages. Thanks, Andrwsc 07:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Wrong flag

Hello. The flag of the Kingdom of France under the House of Bourbon (until 1789 and between 1814/15 and 1830) was the drapeau blanc , not the lily banner or (see english, french, german, etc. articles about the Flag of France), so could someone change the template France/restauration please? Thank you. Louis88 (talk) 11:45, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

And I never have seen any evidence for , I don't think that this flag ever existed... Louis88 (talk) 15:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Please remove this; it is heraldically impossible: gold fleur-de-lys cannot go on a silver background (and can we please not fly a plain white flag, however correct, for any period? it's usually invisible. France Moderne will do. ) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. While metal on metal is of course a violation of the basic law of heraldry it is not impossible. Another example of gold on silver would be the banner of the Kingdom of Jerusalem . Many other accepted examples exist of either metal on metal or or colour on colour. So the rule of tinctures alone does not disrule this historically documented flag.

For articles (this issue just arose at American Revolutionary War) the white flag indeed seems inappropriate which is why I tend to support the use of the lily banner for better visibility. Though whichever of these two is used, a narrow border would make sense for better identification, I believe this is already possible via code without altering the images, but I'm not sure how.

Lastly, France Modern is definitely not appropriate for American revolution articles as it was no longer in use by that time.--Caranorn (talk) 18:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course the Kingdom of Jerusalem was the exception; but it is notable because it was the only exception.

The semy of lilies has the additional problem that (at 24 px) it looks like polka-dots, not any arms of France. As for no longer in use, I would appreciate a source for that; the three lilies of France are famous, and they did not cease to be famous with Henry of Navarre. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Please, it's by far not the only exception. How many arms à enquerre do you want me to cite? In the last month I've had to create at least four medieval coats of arms which were clearly à enquerre (at least two more might be seen as such, though in those cases the charges were better blasonned au naturel which overides the tincture rule). Amsterdam is a good example for modern heraldry. Pastourneaux seems to have written a book about the issue (I expect delivery of one of his books within the next week, hopefully he will list some good examples as well). In countries with well developed heraldry, some 1-2% of arms seem to be à enquerre (which would nicely fit the 4-6 cases among 500 arms I've assembled so far from Luxembourgish medieval history). You can read more, with a large list of examples at [6].

In the end we also have to realise that flags are not governed by the rules of heraldry. Yes they are influenced by them and any quality flag will indeed apply the rules of tinctures, but the rule plays a much smaller role then it does in heraldry itself.--Caranorn (talk) 21:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, please: I did say metal on metal, not color on color; and even your website admits that many of the exceptions are chiefs, for which the explanation is well known: they were at first seen as party per fess. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:43, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

In any case, there are three questions to be asked of any such icon, the first two being subservient to the third:

• Is it historically accurate?
• Is it the only icon which would be historically accurate?
• Is it useful to the encyclopedia, by communicating with the reader?

My answers to these, on argent and or, are: (1) I see no source for it; (2) no; (3) no. I don't think (1) always needs to be true, as long as (3) is satisfied; we use an anachronistic Iroquois flag, perforce, on the same article; but expecting the reader to understand polka-dots as France is a little much. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Off topic subdiscussion

Though we're wearing entirely off topic I ask. Why make a distinction between metal on metal and colour on colour? They are equally frowned on in heraldry for the same reason, that is that they make for limited contrast. Also of the examples given at the link very few involve chiefs (if my count is correct nine, five of those in the section explaining the term cousu) and a large share deal with metal on metal. By the way I'm not sure why you say your website, the only websites I own or run don't deal in heraldry, at least not any more, the linked site has nothing to do with me (and unlike a number of other heraldry sites I don't think I ever contacted its owner either). I'm not sure what you mean either with with chiefs having first been seen as party per fess. The Bigot Roll of Arms (ca. 1254, fully blazonned) lists at least 20 chiefs (I left out two that were blazonned as chiefs but are really part of a more complex design) among its 302 entries and not a single party per fess. Yes, there often is confusing between the two, but the older type indeed seems to be the chief (sigilary sources also seem to support this).--Caranorn (talk) 00:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Very well, not fully distinguished from party per fess. Per Boutell, who notes that for many purposes, including this rule IIRC, chiefs were not viewed as lying on a different level than the field. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, Wrong Flag for the Restauration period

During the first and the second restauration, the White plain flag was used as the french flag. The color white was used on Cocard for example. A royalist newspaper was named "Le drapeau blanc" (see on googlebooks). On this painting here, you can see an allegoric representation of Louis XVIII arrival in Calais in 1814, with plains white flag around the ships and at earth in the right upper corner. This site [7](in french, sorry) precises exactly that the Naval ensign was a white flag after a royal decree in april, 13th 1814. After the empire fall, a specific decree make the flag of infantery as a white flag too, with the french coat of arms put on it. I have find some sources explaining the Lili flag was only a flag put when the King was on a boat, but i don't find any painting with this flag on it during the Restauration period... so please use the File:Flag of the Kingdom of France (1814-1830).svg instead of this. ---Strogoff- (talk) 07:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Vichy flag

The flag for the Vichy period was wrong too. During this period, the usual tricolor was used as the french flag. The flag with the francisque (the axe) was the personnal ensign of Marechal Petain, and was only used on his car. That's why the lorraine crosse was added on the french free forces, to make a difference.---Strogoff- (talk) 07:20, 28 April 2009 (UTC)