Template talk:New Religious Movements, Cults, and Sects

This article was nominated for deletion on 2004-03-15. The result of the discussion was No consensus..

"cults" or "new religious movements"

Sources seem to point to New religious movement as a more modern, neutral, and inclusive expression than Cult. What do people think of renaming the template? There is not one now for new religious movements. BigJim707 (talk) 21:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Fine with that. --JN466 23:43, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Good. How about a section on the major groups? BigJim707 (talk) 16:02, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

undid hasty move. in principal, no objection, but I would like to see further input on the matter, given the time frame involved here, no consensus exists just yet.--Semitransgenic (talk) 16:56, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

No problem. I actually didn't expect the issue to be controversial. BigJim707 (talk) 20:17, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Reorganization of the entire template would be in order with the scope being altered. It would be useful to separate out scholarly organizations from the ACM groups. I like BigJim's suggestion of the including the most prominent groups into the template. Any ideas on how to reorganize it? The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 17:14, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• Agreed. A section on the major groups would be useful too. --JN466 18:51, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Alternatively, leave this template as it is and create a separate template for new religious movements. But would a template to navigate between NRMs really serve a purpose? How likely is it that someone reading about one NRM is going to want to read about an unrelated NRM?   Will Beback  talk  21:42, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I believe it is quite likely indeed. Many books in the field for example address a whole variety of such movements. --JN466 21:44, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's true.

As for the name, another alternative is to use both names: "Cults and new religious movements". Many of the articles are clearly about cults, not necessarily new religious movements.   Will Beback  talk  23:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

That is I have always favored "New and Alternative Religions" and mostly why the entire field has been going that way. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 00:46, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

And folks would be comfortable including, in a "New and Alternative Religions" template, articles such as: Cult apologist, Cults and governments, Cult of personality, Cult suicide, Destructive cult, Doomsday cult, Political cult, Cult Awareness Network, Cult Information Centre, Anti-cult movement, and Christian countercult movement?   Will Beback  talk  04:21, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Except for cult of personality, yes. --JN466 08:13, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

usage of the word "cult," without any negative connotations (in the context of the "NRM" v "Cult" debate), is feasible, and not just in the case of "cult of personality" or "political cult" it's still a perfectly good word to describe certain types of group behaviour, even those that are not inherently religious by nature. There is also the "definitions and boundaries" matter: have they been established with any degree of certainty? Are there any instances remaining where the word "cult" might be more appropriate than NRM? A survey of sources is required to clarify this. Additionally, many government sources still adhere to the term "cult" in cases where NRM might be equally applicable, how do we address this? is it appropriate to ignore such sources? --Semitransgenic (talk) 11:35, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Will, I am perfectly comfortable with including those in a New and Alternative religions template, the term cult is often pejorative slur for such groups. I wold never label a movement a cult but pretending the concepts are not involved in popular discourse would be silly. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 14:02, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

There could also be a section on important books written on the topic. BigJim707 (talk) 15:23, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

use of the word "alternative" might best be avoided. Alternative to what? "mainstream" religion? but couldn't a group argue that their religion is the only one they know, as such it is not an alternative to anything. Others could argue that all religion is alternative: to a scientific understanding of reality. "Alternative" raises too many contextual issues. At least "NRM" avoids this, a new religion is yet another religion, a new set of beliefs and practices, nothing more. --Semitransgenic (talk) 15:31, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

It is the trend in Academic Literature to refer to these groups New and Alternative Religions. It is based in the framework of Rodney Stark's "Market theory of a religious economy," thus alternative religions are by default those with low market share. 19th century Catholicism in America is a beautiful example of this, while not "New" it had all the stigma associated with alternative religious scene. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 17:20, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

it may be a trend, but it appears NRM is still by far the most widely used term, in place of cult, across the academic fields that deal with aspects of religious belief. It seems Stark also suggested Novel Religious Movements, some good reasons here also why it is unfortunate the word cult is now viewed as problematic. --Semitransgenic (talk) 17:39, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

While "NRM" in one wording or another is increasingly common, "cult" is still used in a lot of references and articles. NPOV requires that we avoid endorsing one view over another, which is why either having two templates, or a template with two names, would be most consistent with Wikipedia policy.   Will Beback  talk  22:45, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

we could throw the whole lot in, cover all bases, and call it the "New Religious Movements, Cults, and Sects" template. That way we acknowledge the various terms currently in use, without forcing a POV issue. --Semitransgenic (talk) 22:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

That may be the best solution.   Will Beback  talk  23:06, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

It sounds like a good idea to me too. BigJim707 (talk) 23:59, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Oppose, We should avoid pejorative terms neutral language is the center of NPOV, We should represent mainstream scholarship not stereotypes. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 16:43, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

"Cult" is used by many mainstream scholars. For example, J. Gordon Melton, author of Biographical Dictionary of American Cult and Sect Leaders. It's a term in common and scholarly use, and we'd be non-neutral if we excluded it entirely. Further, we seem to agree that it's appropriate for the template to include many articles that have "cult" in their title.   Will Beback  talk  22:08, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Agree with ResidentAnthropologist. Will, that book by Melton is 25 years old. His 2009 Encyclopedia of American Religions has a section on new religious movements (p. 49) that only uses the word "cult" in quotation marks, in historical references, and he has more recently said, "My working definition of a cult is a group that you don't like, and I say that somewhat facetiously, but at the same time, in fact, that is my working definition of a cult. It is a group that somebody doesn't like. It is a derogatory term, and I have never seen it redeemed from the derogatory connotations that it picked up in the sociological literature in the 1930s." Its use is generally deprecated by mainstream scholars today, for exactly the same reasons. --JN466 22:49, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Are we going to remove citations to 25-year-old books? Is the scholarship no longer valid? We should include the full range of scholarship. While we should give greater weight to more recent scholarly works, where appropriate, we should not deny the existence of earlier scholarship that has not been repudiated. By agreement here, the template is going to include a significant number of articles about cults. So "New Religious Movements, Cults, and Sects" seems like an accurate and inclusive title which describes its contents.   Will Beback  talk  23:09, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

despite the politically correct move away from a perfectly good English word, whether certain scholars like it or not, it is still used in mainstream news coverage, for instance today in the Gaurdian, and it is a perfectly valid word when used in a wide range of contexts. Bainbridge explains quite clearly how the word "cult" can be used without it being "pejorative." Again, there are still issues regarding "definitions and boundaries" that have to be addressed. I see no sense in banishing the word "cult" when we can just as easily acknowledge the words usage and ignore all the fuss over scholarly political correctness. The word still has common currency, ignoring this fact is just plain silly, it also assumes that everyone who views the word will automatically perceive it to mean something negative, which is simply not true. --Semitransgenic (talk) 00:05, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

We generally use neutral, up-to-date language, especially in navigation; we say African American and not American negro, which in no wise implies that any source using the earlier term thereby becomes unreliable. Language changes, and we reflect these changes. Including a pejorative and emotive buzzword like "cult" lowers the tone, and does not encourage neutral writing; cf. WP:LABEL, which actually lists cult as its first example. Here is another quote from a leading scholar, David G. Bromley: "Cult is a four-letter word for a religion you don't like." We can and should be more neutral than that; it's one of the five pillars of this project. Cheers, --JN466 01:06, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

language usage changes such as Negro to African American are not equivalent to changing Cult to New Religious Movement, that's a very poor analogy. The Guardian is a fairly reputable publication, we wont find the word Negro, but they see the word cult as fit for use, and in this item, published yesterday, it uses the word and quotes a scholarly source, a professor, who also finds the word usable. Also, “labelling an organisation a cult” as per WP:LABEL (a guideline determined by consensus) is not the issue at hand. --Semitransgenic (talk) 13:49, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

• Cult apologist => New religous movement apologist
• Cults and governments => New religous movement and governments
• Cult suicide => New religous movement suicide
• Destructive cult => Destructive new religous movements
• Doomsday cult => Doomsday new religous movement
• Political cult => Political new religous movement
• Anti-cult movement => Anti-new religous movement movement
• Christian countercult movement => Christian counter-new religious movement movement

Do editors here propose to rename these articles?   Will Beback  talk  01:25, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I think the word cult (or sect) should be retained in the title. It is in current academic usage (which includes disciplines outside schools of divinity or religious studies) and there are plenty of scholarly books written with "cult" in the title. In addition "New Religious Movements" would not cover political cult. (I think a separate template for NRMs would be fine.) Going back to the current usage of the word "cult" in the academic literature, here are forthcoming books from Cambridge University Press on the Mao cult [1] and from Yale University Press on the Stalin cult. [2] Here are some recent titles from Oxford University Press on religious cults. [3][4] Here are two recent titles from the University of California Press.[5][6] Mathsci (talk) 07:04, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

• Here is a Google Books search, covering the past 10 years, for university press publications with "cults" in the title: 9 titles (discounting the books that are about ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt, medieval saints' cults and other unrelated topics).
• Here is the corresponding search for "new religious movements" in the title: 17 titles, including the Oxford Handbook of New Religious Movements
• Here is the corresponding search for "new religions": 8 titles

That means 25 out of 34 recent (< 10 yrs) university publications in the field use "new religions" or "new religious movements" in the title, and if we only use one term, that is the one we should standardise on. --JN466 12:46, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Countermovements speak of cults; university courses in the field generally have "new religious movements" in the title, or use a similar approach to the one proposed here, to wit: [7]. As most of the article titles above reflect the (non-neutral) language of countermovements, I wouldn't entertain the idea of changing them, except perhaps for "Cults and governments" (a topic which is a subject of scholarly research). I can live with "New Religious Movements, Cults, and Sects" – it is an improvement on what we have now. --JN466 12:46, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

We also see books with mixed titles by academic publishers, such as: “Cults and New Religions: A Brief History” (Bromley 2008), “Cults and new religious movements: a reader” (Dawson 2006), “Cults, Religion, and Violence” (Bromley & Melton 2002), “Cults, Sects and New Religions” (Barker 2002), “Mystics and Messiahs: Cults and New Religions in American History” (Jenkins 2000), “The Encyclopedia of Cults, Sects, and New Religions” (Lewis 1998).--Semitransgenic (talk) 13:49, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm coming round to the idea. Here is another university course that has NRM, cults and sects in the title, even though it only uses NRM in the content description: [8]. That's quite analogous to our situation here, as we're looking for a title, and the words cults and sects are obviously felt to be helpful in advertising what the course is about. And it must be said that there are also university courses that just use cults: [9] --JN466 14:02, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Should we proceed with the proposed template title change then? --Semitransgenic (talk) 12:46, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

List of groups

On the religion template there is a section for "recent" religions. Could we use that as a starting point for a list of major NRM's? Or do you think a list of groups is a good idea? BigJim707 (talk) 13:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I think it may be difficult to decide which ones are "major". In some cases, minor NRMs have received a lot of attention, making them important despite their size.   Will Beback  talk  20:42, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd suggest starting with a criterion that we are prepared to include groups that have one or several full-length book treatments devoted to them. If that turns out to be too many, we can tighten the criterion. --JN466 21:12, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not convinced of the wisdom of adding a list, but that sounds like it might a workable way to do so.   Will Beback  talk  22:59, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

if a list is really necessary, probably best begin with organisations that a broad range of notable academics have explicitly identified as NRMs (where there is a general agreement about the use of the definition, as applied to such groups). --Semitransgenic (talk) 09:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm thinking that readers are probably interested in articles on individual groups and since they are no longer labeled as "cults" by the template it would be okay to list them. I agree with Jayen's suggestion to only include groups that have considerable notability. BigJim707 (talk) 20:53, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Would anyone object if I started the section on notable groups? BigJim707 (talk) 21:29, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

We have Category:New religious movements. We have List of new religious movements, which some are considering deleting. We had List of cults, which was deleted. Can you state more clearly how this list is going to be different from those lists, and what purpose it will serve in this template that isn't already accomplished by the category and the list?   Will Beback  talk  16:52, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree. There could be hundreds of groups on the template. On the other hand I don't know why so many anti-cult groups are there now. Borock (talk) 17:01, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

The inclusion of groups that study NRMs is separate from the inclusion of NRMs themselves.   Will Beback  talk  18:13, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I did notice that the Council on Mind Abuse seems like a fairly minor organization which no longer exists. Kitfoxxe (talk) 19:22, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd favour deleting it. We should generally list only the more notable cult-watching groups/anti-cult organisations. I do think we should list the more notable NRMs themselves, given that the template is named "NRMs, cults and sects". Off the top of my head, some of the more notable ones that have definitely been the subject of book-length studies include Baha'ism, Children of God, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Divine Light Mission, Falun Gong, International Society for Krishna Consciousness, Jehovah's Witnesses, Order of the Solar Temple, Peoples Temple, Raëlism, Rajneesh movement, Sahaja Yoga, Sathya Sai Baba movement, Scientology, Soka Gakkai, Unification Church. Is anyone aware of book-length studies of the Transcendental Meditation movement? If so, that might be good to include too. --JN466 01:14, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I think the list provided here would be different in only referencing the most prominent ones that are likely to be of most interest. Category:New religious movements is not easy to navigate for the reader who is just interested in some of the major groups. --JN466 01:18, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd support including that list, if there is some understanding that tons of minor groups would not be added. Borock (talk) 02:53, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I've added your list. Perhaps Nation of Islam and maybe Neopaganism could also be included. Borock (talk) 16:00, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I've added Nation of Islam and Wicca under major groups, and have added Neo-Paganism under concepts.

I've also made some other changes: 1. listing major NRMs/cults/sects first; 2. consolidating concepts and theories in one list, "Concepts", 3. added anti-cult organisations under "Opposition", and 4. listed scholarly organisations and journals under "Scholarship". --JN466 16:42, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

• Here's a scholarly book on TM: Link. There are also lots of books promoting it and some Christian anti-cult books debunking it. Borock (talk) 11:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

It looks good ya'll, Props to Jayen466 for doing the redesign. It is a huge improvement. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 15:42, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Notable figures

started a group that compiles notable figures, offers an at a glance overview of founders, group leaders etc. may seem like duplication, certain individuals are synonymous their movement, but not in all cases, and we shouldn't assume the general reader is already aware of the connections. --Semitransgenic (talk) 02:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

One can see that either way. But as the founders or leaders are usually mentioned in the lead sentences of the respective movement articles, I'd prefer not having an additional section, just to keep the template manageable.

Of the recent additions to the list of major groups, do the following meet our inclusion criterion that there should be at least one independent book-length scholarly study of the movement?

• Christian Reformed Church in North America
• Church of Satan
• Landmark Education
• School of Economic Science
• Twelve Tribes --JN466 15:10, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

i see no harm in adding a list of key figures, separate from the movement listing, manageability shouldn't be a problem, it's a pop down menu, this is still pretty small compared to some on here. Not sure I agree with the necessity of full length book coverage to qualify inclusion. Church of Satan is certainly well documented from what I see. Perhaps if an item has received coverage across a range of academic titles that should suffice. --Semitransgenic (talk) 15:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• Landmark is tied to Werner Erhard, there are several biographies of him, Church of Statan has several monographs and studies, Unfamiliar with [School of Economic Science]]. I can verify there is not a scholarly or popular book length item written on them. Christian Reformed Church in North America seems not but I am not doing any in depth search right now. I have to agree with Jayen466 that the removing the founders of each religion would be preferable. I would also note the book length requirement keeps the list manageable. The whole thing could probably lean towards more to the more recent movements and those that remain outside the mainstream. Quakerism for example what ever its roots in early America, is now pretty mainstream, theologically at even if not organizationally. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 18:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

if we lean toward the more recent movements, require at least one complete scholarly text per item, and also remove any mention of key individuals, it's not going to be a very informative template. We are creating a navigational aid here, so people can get an overview of the subject matter and navigate the subject space easily. There are no specific guidelines on template manageability. Looking at one example given there's plenty covered, and there are busier examples. Additionally we are attempting to cover a diverse range of articles using one template. Template guideline No.3 states that the articles should refer to each other, to a reasonable extent. Not sure that can happen here without overlooking obvious disparities. I favour giving a broad overview. --Semitransgenic (talk) 22:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

School of Economic Science

I just checked out the School of Economic Science. It doesn't seem to be such major group and not even clearly a NRM, cult, or sect. Does it really belong on the template? Kitfoxxe (talk) 06:18, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Don't think so; I wasn't able to find a book-length scholarly study of them, as far as I recall. --JN466 06:43, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

i disagree with the suggestion that a "book-length scholarly study" is as requirement for inclusion. SES is mentioned in multiple scholarly NRM texts, most notably in:

• Encyclopedia of new religious movements.

It's referred to as "a British NRM" in

• New religions in global perspective

and is mentioned briefly in the following:

• Exploring New Religions
• New religious movements: challenge and response
• The World's Religions: The Study of Religion, Traditional and New Religion
• Children of the New Age: a history of spiritual practices

--Semitransgenic (talk) 12:10, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that there are hundreds of NRMs that have those types and numbers of mentions, at which point it would become entirely subjective which ones we include and exclude. --JN466 13:23, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

true, then perhaps we should address item coverage in terms of numbers of published book chapters in the NRM literature? excluding items such as "Encyclopedia of new religious movements." The issue is one of notability, not whether or not an entire book has been dedicated to a subject.--Semitransgenic (talk) 15:14, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

IIRC, the standard we discussed above is "one or several full-length book treatments devoted to them", not necessarily scholarly books. I think there's some ambiguity in cases where leaders of NRMs have been the subject of books which also focus on their movements. I don't have any input on SES.   Will Beback  talk  02:54, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

well if we are adamant about sticking to that requirement there is a book on SES--Semitransgenic (talk) 03:23, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

That book seems to have been written to promote it. Not that that's a bad thing, but it doesn't speak to the notability/importance of the organization. Also the template is calling them "major groups", not just "notable groups." Kitfoxxe (talk) 16:26, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Agree. We are looking for third-party coverage, not primary sources. --JN466 17:10, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Toooo BIG

This template is far too big. All the organisations and individuals should be culled from it. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 20:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Disagree. see the following, compare, are they also too big? --Semitransgenic (talk) 11:35, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd favour dropping the individuals and restricting the groups to those that have had at least one book-length scholarly study written about them (see above); essentially a revert to this version (with Aum Shinrikyo added). --JN466 04:48, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

again, i see no valid reason to remove individuals. in many cases the personalties that initiated/lead such movements are notable in their own right, hence the fact that there are articles for each: the movement, the leader (often a charismatic personality). Additionally, coverage across a range of scholarly sources, where at least one book chapter is devoted to the subject, should be good enough for inclusion. --Semitransgenic (talk) 11:35, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Unsourced Additions

I note that User:Semitransgenic made several additions to the template in October 2011. Specifically, I am interested in the addition of Landmark Education to the list. As has been thoroughly discussed on other articles, there are not WP:Reliable sources that indicate that Landmark is a New Religious Movement, a Cult, or a Sect. It should not be included in this template without first providing a source. I have not invetigated the other additions, although I see that there are also some living persons added - which should be removed as unsourced per WP:BLP. I intend to remove Landmark and the living persons following this discussion. --69.128.237.22 (talk) 17:48, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

• Let's try to find some sources. My feeling is that the NRM/cult designation is not uncommon in relation to est, but less common and accepted in the case of Landmark Education. See e.g. [10][11] --JN466 18:03, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
• In particular, I note the discrepancy between these two results: [12][13] --JN466 18:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
• Similarly: [14][15] Of course these are high-level searches, and numbers are no replacement for reading the sources, which may or may not label est or Landmark a cult or NRM, but the numbers in themselves strongly suggest that est has occurred far more often in cult discourse than Landmark has. --JN466 18:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria

What exactly is the criteria for inclusion on this template? The template seems to have morphed significantly since the September 2011 rename from Template:Cults to Template:New Religious Movements, Cults, and Sects, becoming quite bloated, and includes organizations that are not defined as NRM, cults, or sects on the very articles they are linking to. If an orginization is not found at List of new religious movements, why would it appear on this template under the Major groups section? -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 18:53, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is ranked by the National Council of Churches as the fourth largest Christian denomination in the United States. We should not include them.--87.163.239.153 (talk) 17:46, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The Seventh-day Adventist Church is a protestant denomination. We should not include them.--87.163.239.153 (talk) 17:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)